EPTGreat guide and game plan. It's not unbeatable (nothing is) but it's rock solid and now my diamond zvz no longer feels random and improvised.
Haven't lost a single mirror yet. Awesome!
[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 7
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Phoenixed
11 Posts
Great guide and game plan. It's not unbeatable (nothing is) but it's rock solid and now my diamond zvz no longer feels random and improvised. Haven't lost a single mirror yet. Awesome! | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
I don't even play zerg, nice guide though. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 11 2012 06:06 xlava wrote: Why the hell do people keep bitching at Tang? I don't understand. I don't know his past/bm/whatever, I don't care, he's obviously doing good things for the community, all these hate comments are really immature and unwarranted. I don't even play zerg, nice guide though. I think it's just a resistance to a non-macro style of zerg. We forget that Leenock, DRG, JulyZerg, Nestea, Sen, and Sheth all use builds like these on a regular basis. | ||
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Drmooose
United States390 Posts
That being said I really appreciate the write up. No one should be content without knowing a few aggressive styles like this as they're perfect for a boX series or even if you get rematched against someone on ladder right away. I always prefer ling opens to roach styles and playing aggressive with ling/bane isn't always viable on maps with smaller chokes. I've been looking for a build like that that can punish an expo. | ||
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Noak3
United States236 Posts
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote: This actually seems like a good place to ask this: Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg. And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way. Because many players that don't play that style get stuck at the point in high diamond or low masters where their opponents know how to counter that type of play. Tang managed to get high because he has good game sense and knows when and how to transition. Many higher players aren't comfortable with the idea that you have to do damage to be even. The interesting thing is, tang, that your ling micro against banes isn't that great- no offense or anything. I'm impressed that your style is still this strong despite losing big clumps of lings every game. What set of transitions are you comfortable with after this if your roach/ling attack sets you even, behind, or only slightly ahead? I would imagine that a set of timings after this to secure additional bases/tech would be good, like a roach/infestor/+2 timing to get a 4th and hive or something. I would love to play this style if a full game got played out every time I used it, my only problem with it is how little your games tend to progress. I'm most comfortable in the lategame and late-midgame, so it's unfortunate that, even if this is a fun style, I wouldn't get to experience that very often if I started using it. | ||
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Inf1n1teabyss
United States14 Posts
 . But i'd love to see a guide similar to this on zvt. Keep up the good work. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 11 2012 09:27 Drmooose wrote: Id argue its your relentless resistence to having a build of yours being called an "all in" which I don't understand as it doesn't change anything either way. Oh I've written guides on all-in. I'd be comfortable calling this guide an all-in if it was, but ZvZ is so situational that you can't really say a given timing attack is or isn't an all-in. I'd say this build has the potential of being an all-in, and has the potential of transitioning into a different all in, and has the potential to transition into macro. | ||
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DustyShelf
United Kingdom111 Posts
 . I also don't get the hate. Its a bit of a gamble, sure but you're probably going to do some damage unless you just blindly move all your lings in a big clump. If your control is better then a hella ton of damage and as if he runs out of banes he's dead. It's not all-in if you set back his economy as much as yours which this build gives you one of the best opportunities to by killing drones. Talking about defenders advantage with the fastest unit in the game is a little wobbly too. It's much less of a deal with rallying speedlings. I mean considering ling/bling is such a popular build and requires exactly the same sort of control and risk taking I don't see what everyone's problem is. This way you're not even gambling gas and if you get a stab at the drone line he can't just split. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 11 2012 18:00 DustyShelf wrote: I mean considering ling/bling is such a popular build and requires exactly the same sort of control and risk taking I don't see what everyone's problem is. This way you're not even gambling gas and if you get a stab at the drone line he can't just split. I agree. ZvZ is a dicey matchup which is why I don't like playing baneling or roach defense. I prefer to take the battle to my opponent. It's fun and good practice to take shots, poke, scout, do damage, transition, and keep your opponent on the backfoot as much as possible so you're in control. There's nothing inherently wrong with utilizing a low-econ opening, as long as you have these types of goals in mind. That and your opponent's head on a spike! | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 12 2012 00:59 DarKFoRcE wrote: i think this is as one dimensional as the styles you critize. you basically hope your opponent doesnt have banelings in time. if he has only like 2 banes and a spine at home (something very usual), i dont see what you can do with your mass ling. because reinforcements and queens will prevent you from killing the banes easily with few lings.. I see what you're saying. Obviously you do hope your opponent doesn't have banelings in time, because then you win outright. The thing is, you have 16 drones mining minerals. If he's going to defend this with ling/bane, he probably has between 19-22 drones when you hit (3 of which are in gas) so you're definitely not that behind + you have the map control and he may over commit to defense. What makes this style different than a one-dimensional style like the 14/14 ling baneling is that it's not just one big attack. It's a sequence of attacks, based on adapting to your opponent's style. For example, if your opponent spines up, you adapt by droning and most likely securing an economic lead assuming you cut lings right away. If your opponent neglects spines and tries to greedily hold with only a few lings and banes, you can hit him with another ling timing or even a roach/ling attack like I outline in this thread. I'm not arguing this is the absolute definitive best build for Zergs to use, but for those who are struggling in the matchup, this is a way to improve the micro/multitasking mechanics needed to play at a higher level. Also, it shuts down 1-base play extremely easily and you never have to have that fear of "I don't know what my opponent is doing, should I drone or make units?" because you're ALWAYS being active, scouting, and trying to do damage. I don't think playing a macro-style practices these necessary skills to such a degree. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
I agree that all openings to should be tried and tested. Then one can really work on their own tactics with the knowlege of what can be viable. | ||
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dSoda
United States122 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 12 2012 03:55 McDrew wrote: In the instance your opponent has those few defensive banes and your lings can't do any damage, how do you transition out of it, specifically how do you defend against a roach bane followup. It seems like when i run into builds like this on ladder, its almost an autowin for me if i just get to 30 drones, make ~10 roaches and morph 15 or so banes and attack/stream reinforcements. I think that's one of the beautiful things about the roach/ling transition. If your opponent does a big counter-attack all-in like roach/ling/bane, you can just defend with your spine/roaches/lings instead of moving out. It would largely depend on how many drones your made while defending, but if he opened ling/bane defense his roach/ling/bane push is going to be delayed over a roach opening anyway. | ||
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Ntwadumela
United States65 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 12 2012 06:13 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Thanx for your work, Tang. 'though i prefer the defensive side in ZvZ, it is insightful to see the aggressor side. Stream episode 3 is focused partially on good ways to defend against this style. | ||
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iglocska
Norway589 Posts
On February 11 2012 03:22 TangSC wrote: It's true dealing with banelings will be harder for a player without solid ling micro - but what better way is there to practice it than with an active style? I think this is a really good point. I have often used your old build, the 2 base speedling all-in, when I felt like practicing my ling micro a bit (since everyone and their dog seemed to go 14/14 banelings at the time) - and I feel that it really helped. I feel confident enough dealing with banelings using only zerglings at my level (high dia/low masters) due to using that build every now and then. Even though 75% of the time I try to force macro games to get better, I really enjoy throwing your builds in there once in a while, so thanks for all your guides | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On February 12 2012 01:16 TangSC wrote: I see what you're saying. Obviously you do hope your opponent doesn't have banelings in time, because then you win outright. The thing is, you have 16 drones mining minerals. If he's going to defend this with ling/bane, he probably has between 19-22 drones when you hit (3 of which are in gas) so you're definitely not that behind + you have the map control and he may over commit to defense. What makes this style different than a one-dimensional style like the 14/14 ling baneling is that it's not just one big attack. It's a sequence of attacks, based on adapting to your opponent's style. For example, if your opponent spines up, you adapt by droning and most likely securing an economic lead assuming you cut lings right away. If your opponent neglects spines and tries to greedily hold with only a few lings and banes, you can hit him with another ling timing or even a roach/ling attack like I outline in this thread. I'm not arguing this is the absolute definitive best build for Zergs to use, but for those who are struggling in the matchup, this is a way to improve the micro/multitasking mechanics needed to play at a higher level. Also, it shuts down 1-base play extremely easily and you never have to have that fear of "I don't know what my opponent is doing, should I drone or make units?" because you're ALWAYS being active, scouting, and trying to do damage. I don't think playing a macro-style practices these necessary skills to such a degree. How can you possibly claim that youre not super far behind if ure on 16Drones (just ling tech) against Ling, Bling, Spine, on 19-22 drones? I mean, sure its not unwinable from here, but ure in a very uncomfortable position. I kinda like ur play (as much as any other allin builds) on shitty maps or to mix in cheese in BOX matches - and im sure, at least on the NA server, you will get a ton of points with that. But does it make sense, to practice builds, write guides which will FAIL against good zerg? Yes, Sheth is a good one, but in ZvZ every good Zergs makes mistakes sometimes. Thats what your build builds on, your enemy screwing up. I would understand more of your arguments or see you as a better player if you would write some... solid builds? Unfortunately, there havent been some of those. I guess this build rocks for everything but high master/gm. But dudes, if you ever want to become a better gamer, there is not much sense executing such builds on ladder. | ||
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