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i really dont understand all the hate and all those "this is just an all in, if oponent scouts it you are so fare behind" comments.
why cant you ppl just accept this build as a strong, aggressive tool you can have in your arsenal? do you only play one single build every game? dont you ever mix it up?
and btw, those "if you get scoutet you're dead" comments are so silly. no matter what you try to do, if you get scouted its bad for you. it might be worse if you wanted to do an all in and your opponent scouts it out, but at the end of the day, getting scouted is bad with every build order. i mean if a two rax gets scouted early on, terran is pretty much dead. neverteless 2 rax is seen quite often, even in tournaments.
this bulid gives you the possibility to be very aggressiv early on and win if your opponent didnt prepare for your attack. its propably not the greatest build if you want to learn how to play a macro game, but is it super extra bad because of that? i dont think so.
and btw, not all of us are master players. i've shown this build to my gf little brother and he just keeps rocking the gold and platin zergs with great pleasure :D
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These look very promising, I'll try them in some custom games vs friends :D.
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On February 12 2012 19:43 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 01:16 TangSC wrote:On February 12 2012 00:59 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i think this is as one dimensional as the styles you critize. you basically hope your opponent doesnt have banelings in time. if he has only like 2 banes and a spine at home (something very usual), i dont see what you can do with your mass ling. because reinforcements and queens will prevent you from killing the banes easily with few lings.. I see what you're saying. Obviously you do hope your opponent doesn't have banelings in time, because then you win outright. The thing is, you have 16 drones mining minerals. If he's going to defend this with ling/bane, he probably has between 19-22 drones when you hit (3 of which are in gas) so you're definitely not that behind + you have the map control and he may over commit to defense. What makes this style different than a one-dimensional style like the 14/14 ling baneling is that it's not just one big attack. It's a sequence of attacks, based on adapting to your opponent's style. For example, if your opponent spines up, you adapt by droning and most likely securing an economic lead assuming you cut lings right away. If your opponent neglects spines and tries to greedily hold with only a few lings and banes, you can hit him with another ling timing or even a roach/ling attack like I outline in this thread. I'm not arguing this is the absolute definitive best build for Zergs to use, but for those who are struggling in the matchup, this is a way to improve the micro/multitasking mechanics needed to play at a higher level. Also, it shuts down 1-base play extremely easily and you never have to have that fear of "I don't know what my opponent is doing, should I drone or make units?" because you're ALWAYS being active, scouting, and trying to do damage. I don't think playing a macro-style practices these necessary skills to such a degree. I guess this build rocks for everything but high master/gm. But dudes, if you ever want to become a better gamer, there is not much sense executing such builds on ladder.
You, like the majority of players, underestimate how quickly you can produce workers with a 16 drone economy, 2 queens and 2 hatcheries. I like having maximized 1base economy to build an army with the goal of taking map control and doing damage. My time to drone is while I'm being aggressive with those units - if I wanted I could make or 3 or 4 drones in the 20s of supply and be even with a player who opens banelings, I could even cut zerglings at 31, but I actually prefer having the extra lings at that stage in the game.
And your comment about becoming a better gamer is not at all true - if you execute only macro-style builds, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. For new and learning players, using a macro style that only works because of extremely well-timed builds and responses to scouting is a way to become frustrated very quickly: You're going to lose a lot of games to timing attacks, and if you make that 80-drone economy you're not likely to have developed the necessary macro/multitasking skills to use it. I strongly recommend styles that centralize on timing attacks and transitions, that keep you active with your units WHILE managing your economy and production. Once you
I firmly argue that if you practice any style enough and perfect it, you can turn it into a viable long-term strategy. Just because IdrA says SC2 is a game of macro and nothing more doesn't mean the whole NA server has to shut themselves off from aggressive styles. If you played a week on the Korean server, you'd see what I mean.
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Ive tried this 3 times so far and won 2 out of 3 games. The game I lost my opponent went for a 15 hatch 2 base ling bling all in. Rather than engaging his units at my natural I would counter attack and try and defend with my 2 queens a single spine and whatever reinforcements I could make at home. I managed to kill his natural but shortly thereafter he was able to kill my natural the game just went back and forth with me mostly counter attacking and trying to defend at home with what ever units I could muster but eventually his banes got the best of me and I had to GG. Tang do you have any recommendations for adapting this build to handle a 2 base ling bling all in? Should I slow ling production and play defensive or maybe get a roach warren asap?
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On February 13 2012 04:27 SKGZombie wrote:
Ive tried this 3 times so far and won 2 out of 3 games. The game I lost my opponent went for a 15 hatch 2 base ling bling all in. Rather than engaging his units at my natural I would counter attack and try and defend with my 2 queens a single spine and whatever reinforcements I could make at home. I managed to kill his natural but shortly thereafter he was able to kill my natural the game just went back and forth with me mostly counter attacking and trying to defend at home with what ever units I could muster but eventually his banes got the best of me and I had to GG. Tang do you have any recommendations for adapting this build to handle a 2 base ling bling all in? Should I slow ling production and play defensive or maybe get a roach warren asap?
That's a really good question, and I think the way you played it is what I would have done too. You usually won't be able to get roaches out in time to deal with a 2base ling-bane all-in, so I think it's better to constantly build lings and play a counter-attack style every time he moves out to bust you. It turns into a bit of an awkward base-race situation but it's not unwinnable by any means.
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On February 09 2012 08:30 Depetrify wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking I agree with this. Zerg isn't suppose to be played this way. And most of those people aren't that great, your MMR isn't very high. It might work often because people don't expect an aggressive zerg.
Can you give us a source or on what is this argument placed on? I personally hate this kind of mindset on any game that your style would be prewritten or something like that. Surely this build isn't meant to be your 100% standard opener at gm level. It's always good to have big bag of tricks with you.
edit: oops sorry didn't read the whole thread I think my point has already been said
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Well Tang youre right. It definitly is kinda frustrating to lose 100000 Games just because u made 2-3 Drones too much, a 10sec too late Baneling Nest or whatever. But that style is the style zerg is supposed to play in my eyes, and its the hardest to learn too. Thats why i dont understand why you would ever focus on allinnish styles if you really want to become better.
Dont get me wrong - i love timing attacks, i love allin builds.. to achieve wins in teamleagues or cups in BO3/5 games. Ofc you can catch up to the dronecount within secs - im also playing the same race dude  But its not just about that. Your drones just have mined less, and you absolutely cant deny that. But thats not the most crucial part, more crucial is the gas which ure lacking since u invested so much in lingpressure. If you can get a round of drones out and your opponent doesnt counterattack you, i guess youre fine then. But doing this you always got a very vurneable timing.
I mean.. there are not just clean macrobuilds like Idra, in fact there are a lot of nice pressure builds which can be refined a lot. But your style is very allinnish, and i wouldnt call it macro oriented play at all. The only real good guide from you in my opinion is the three barrel bust so far againt Terra, and even that is just usefull on short maps with a open natural.
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On February 13 2012 18:12 doggy wrote:Well Tang youre right. It definitly is kinda frustrating to lose 100000 Games just because u made 2-3 Drones too much, a 10sec too late Baneling Nest or whatever. But that style is the style zerg is supposed to play in my eyes, and its the hardest to learn too. Thats why i dont understand why you would ever focus on allinnish styles if you really want to become better. Dont get me wrong - i love timing attacks, i love allin builds.. to achieve wins in teamleagues or cups in BO3/5 games. Ofc you can catch up to the dronecount within secs - im also playing the same race dude But its not just about that. Your drones just have mined less, and you absolutely cant deny that. But thats not the most crucial part, more crucial is the gas which ure lacking since u invested so much in lingpressure. If you can get a round of drones out and your opponent doesnt counterattack you, i guess youre fine then. But doing this you always got a very vurneable timing. I mean.. there are not just clean macrobuilds like Idra, in fact there are a lot of nice pressure builds which can be refined a lot. But your style is very allinnish, and i wouldnt call it macro oriented play at all. The only real good guide from you in my opinion is the three barrel bust so far againt Terra, and even that is just usefull on short maps with a open natural.
Nearly every guide I've written details a build that I've used successfully at the highest level of NA and EU ladder, and I've also carefully refined transitions to even the most aggressive of builds. SC2 is a lot more about executing a build perfectly than it is about choosing the right build, and my guides describe styles I've spend months refining and perfecting.
Also, it's a misconception that macro play is better for learning purposes than aggressive builds - there's been no data collected that suggests this is true, and I've actually experienced the opposite in my experience coaching. The majority of learning players who use a macro style don't make it to a point in the game where they have a large economy, and when they do they don't have the multitasking to use that large economy.
I'll tell you this - I guarantee I'm more precise with my mineral saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players.
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Very nice style, i have been doing it all day and it requires a sick amount of multitasking and apm to work.
And when multitasking and apm is what im working on know this is perfect
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Haters gonna hate foreever, awesome guide, well explained ! There's no way you can spit on all-ins, MC 3 time champion of gsl, well respected player does alot of all-ins, aswell as mma, mvp, supernova , leenock. All-in is a very viable option, and after one week on korean ladder, you'll think Na ladder is macro heavy style ladder. The hardest playstyle for a new player would be to play super greedy and have insane micro/decision making to hold any timing push.
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Idk if anyone was watching Stephanos stream yesterday but he was using this mass ling opening very successfully on ladder. He picked apart Lowely who opened with an early hatch and sling bling defense. Stephano would run around the blings and go straight for the drones it was pretty awesome to watch.
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On February 13 2012 23:50 Bellazuk wrote:
The hardest playstyle for a new player would be to play super greedy and have insane micro/decision making to hold any timing push.
I agree 100%. I used to try to play idra-style ZvP, ZvZ, and ZvT because I thought it was the only viable option. I did reach master but it was only when I started experimenting with aggressive strategies that I started feeling comfortable in all matchups.
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On February 13 2012 23:38 snullbar wrote:
Very nice style, i have been doing it all day and it requires a sick amount of multitasking and apm to work.
And when multitasking and apm is what im working on know this is perfect
If you haven't yet, open this build up in the multitasking trainer and practice it ^^ That's what I do for MTT practice.
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I'll tell you this - I guarantee I'm more precise with my mineral saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players.
Then why is every single one of you're guides a guide on how to all in? I used to speedling / baneling bust EVERY single ZvZ and I am confident when I say that my baneling micro was probably one of the best , but to say you have better saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players is a ridiculous statement, how can you have better econ / saturation than 99% of macro players, when you all in so much? The fact that you are talking so much about transitions after these all ins is also ridiculous, to transition after an all in would mean you're all in would have to be successful or the opponent would have to be terrible to let you transition, these are the types of all in's that get straight up shut down so easily if the opponent can scout.
These guides are not helping people to improve, they are helping people get BO wins, and I am still in awe that you think you have better mineral saturation and econ management than "99% of macro players" , who are these " macro players" and where can we find them? There is bassically 0 way to prove that statement so it just makes you look ridiculous. It gets kind of sickening when people are posting guides on how to all in, all the time in strategy section.....IMO this is not helping people improve, but whatever floats you're boat.
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On February 16 2012 05:16 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +I'll tell you this - I guarantee I'm more precise with my mineral saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players. It gets kind of sickening when people are posting guides on how to all in, all the time in strategy section.....IMO this is not helping people improve, but whatever floats you're boat.
You're just letting your own bias and opinion overcome your logic. If it were an all-in build, I would label it an all-in build. Perhaps you're comfortable playing a macro-style in ZvZ, I prefer an aggressive alternative and so do a lot of other players that I'm trying to help. The only thing sickening is your attitude, sir!
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Thanks again for this awesome guide!
Now zvz makes fun and i managed to win against him! :D
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On February 16 2012 05:35 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:16 GGzerG wrote:I'll tell you this - I guarantee I'm more precise with my mineral saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players. It gets kind of sickening when people are posting guides on how to all in, all the time in strategy section.....IMO this is not helping people improve, but whatever floats you're boat. You're just letting your own bias and opinion overcome your logic. If it were an all-in build, I would label it an all-in build. Perhaps you're comfortable playing a macro-style in ZvZ, I prefer an aggressive alternative and so do a lot of other players that I'm trying to help. The only thing sickening is your attitude, sir!
I would encourage anyone who labels this an all-in to try it. Droning at any point during the build seems to work quite well. This is certainly no worker-pulling no econ all-in, simply a big ling timing followed by a roach+ling.
What I really like about the build is that it gives you a solid build up through your first few injects. Say what you will about the timing attacks; the build optimizes early larva production, and I hope everyone can at least appreciate that much. Whether those larva become lings or drones is your choice.
Thanks for the guide, Tang, and for answering some of my questions earlier.
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On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:
Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.
And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.
If I read your rant, I read the following question : Why do most zergs go for economy when they can instead of being aggressive?
Exactly because of that. IF we're investing too early in offensive pressure and do not do the damage that would justify the drain on our economy, then we >will< be hardpressed lategame to deal with an opponent of equal skill and awareness. I am not saying it'll be impossible but due to the fact that Zerg requires an upperhand on economy, it's usually much more rewarding and safe if you macro as long as you're able to.
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On February 16 2012 05:35 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 05:16 GGzerG wrote:I'll tell you this - I guarantee I'm more precise with my mineral saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players. It gets kind of sickening when people are posting guides on how to all in, all the time in strategy section.....IMO this is not helping people improve, but whatever floats you're boat. You're just letting your own bias and opinion overcome your logic. If it were an all-in build, I would label it an all-in build. Perhaps you're comfortable playing a macro-style in ZvZ, I prefer an aggressive alternative and so do a lot of other players that I'm trying to help. The only thing sickening is your attitude, sir!
Even if it were an all-in build, making a guide for it is nothing but helpful to EVERYONE.
The only way macro builds become more solid is by exposing its weaknesses, and adjusting for them.
The only way to expose weaknesses is to test your build against every single all-in ever imagined.
So my question is this, how do you feel you can hold this and come out ahead?
edit: build seems to work smoothly, the only problem I'm having is having enough for my queen when the pool finishes, I'm usually around 110-120 minerals, is this because I don't drone stack or?
Also, in your picture guide it says 17 ovie, instead of 18 ovie
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EPT
