EPT[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 6
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naut1c
Austria100 Posts
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
If the opponent goes Hatch first and blocks his ramp with two queens, defended by a spine, have a small amount of lings and a bane at his natural, what are you going to do? When I scouted his roaches I already had three hatches with injects going to mass lings and crush that paltry army. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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ukas
Mexico24 Posts
Also the timings do not lie if you do it right there is very little or almost nothing opp can do cause its not meta it's a bo win | ||
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
These builds are great for people below masters, people will use terrible builds and generally not use banelings. But if you are >Masters, and you assume comparable micro, you will lose against any not overly greedy zerg. (2 queen, spine, baneling defense of a 15 hatch). That is a very, very standard opener and if you both micro properly, the mass ling player will lose every single time. Tang, please stop posting these builds and pretending it's 'not an all-in' or 'it has strong transitions'. You are executing this build, hoping your opponent is too greedy. After that you don't asses the damage and just follow up with another all-in, whether you're ahead or behind. Best way to hold: 15 hatch, 4 baneling at the ready, spine at nat, 3 queens, 2 injecting 1 spreading creep. Once you see the attack you morph as many banes as you're able to, you block the ramp with 2 queens and you pull your drones into your main. No damage done, the round of lings comes out and you're safe with more drones. You then start a roach warren and keep scouting and droning up. The roaches move out, you make your own roaches. GG from there. tl;dr: This build works because it's a double all-in, and people generally suck vs. all-ins. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On February 09 2012 21:19 TangSC wrote: Very few of my guides are about all-ins. There are a wide variety of macro transitions available in ZvZ after putting on pressure and securing map control. This is a style that is completely safe against cheese and lets you take control of the matchup by executing early timing attacks that do damage, have a chance to win, and give you the freedom to drone behind. Not a lot of zerg vs zerg styles allow that, and I think a lot of players wish they didn't have to play a defensive guessing game. If you watch the stream videos, you'll see that what I'm encouraging zerg players to do in ZvZ is drone while they have map control instead of just doing it blindly. As I've repeated, even players who have a macro agenda but don't quite have a solid/safe opening can benefit from using this build for safety, transitioning to a style of their choice (spines/mutas, evo/roaches, etc) This is an alternative style that to standard macro that works quite while against any opening, assuming equal skill level. And I've had a lot of fun with it too! Except you're compromising your drone count for map control that's essentially worthless at that stage of the game.It's not like Zerg's looking to move out or take a fast third....Your speedlings can have all the map control they want, it really doesn't matter if the other player is perfectly fine sitting in their base, enjoying an 8 drone lead, then pushing out with a much bigger army because your ~40 lings didn't do enough damage to justify themselves. Not saying this is bad, it can probably work, but your "put on pressure, take map control and drone behind it" is a lot better in theory than it is in practice (mainly cause map control really isnt that important when your opponent is riding a better economy and doesn't need to take a 3rd any time soon). I'm sure these guides would be more positively received by good players if you stopped trying to mask the fact that you're essentially writing an instruction manual for an all in, and then telling people to make enough drones to support another all in if their opponent isn't crippled, then pretending that somehow shows good macro and transitioning. You're committing way too much for this to simply be pressure you can drone behind. Making 8 roaches in ZvT to force a CC lift, force scvs to be pulled to repair a wall, and force a bunker while droning is pressure. Making 40 lings this early in ZvZ is all in. | ||
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Ninja_Bread
United States113 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 10 2012 10:41 dabosaur wrote: Isnt it unsafe to have your buildings so spread out against like a 6pool or so? if it's closer to your drones you can push the zerglings away..? I actually typically put the pool 2 squares away from hatch (room for a spine to be touching the pool and hatch) in case of that type of pressure, can cancel hatch and put 2-3 spines up in between. Shuts it down pretty hard because lings can't hit the spine. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 10 2012 11:20 Jak360 wrote: Small question. Would this build still work if u wanted to throw down a hatch before pool. Or would you not have the gas and speed up fast enough? I prefer pool first, gets the 2 queens up very early and optimizes your ling count at 5:30. To those saying they can stop this, feel free to message me in game anytime Tang/233 and we'll see how "easy" it is for you to defend ^^ | ||
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
If the opponent goes Hatch first and blocks his ramp with two queens, defended by a spine, have a small amount of lings and a bane at his natural, and a nice concave of overlords so he can still do injections, what are you going to do? Just because it was entirely overlooked by everyone. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:20 Xana wrote: I'll pose this again: If the opponent goes Hatch first and blocks his ramp with two queens, defended by a spine, have a small amount of lings and a bane at his natural, and a nice concave of overlords so he can still do injections, what are you going to do? Just because it was entirely overlooked by everyone. You actually need 3 queens to defend the ramp and STILL will need banelings, your lings will easily (and i mean easily) break through a spine and 2 queens. Also, you're droning behind this - he needs to be making units and defenses. You'll end up even in drones or ahead by the end of it, assuming your read is correct. | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
You actually need 3 queens to defend the ramp and STILL will need banelings, your lings will easily (and i mean easily) break through a spine and 2 queens. Also, you're droning behind this - he needs to be making units and defenses. You'll end up even in drones or ahead by the end of it, assuming your read is correct. I didn't find this response even remotely helpful. I'm argueing from the -defending- players side in this, not from the aggressors. One or two banelings is enough to deflect the lings from said spine, or from the choke at your ramp. Just a handful (6 lings, generally) is enough to make sure he doesn't send in a few lings to kill your banes. Having him run into your mineral line and hold position with the lings will be extremely dangerous as you have those banelings. You don't need three queens to block a ramp, you don't even need lingspeed. If you place your Evochamber/Roachwarren at your expansion as the defending player, you can make it impossible for the aggressive player to do any damage with the first attack. ^ If this tactic can deflect the 24 +1 speedlings all-in at 6min 20, I believe I can shut down your first attack pretty hard aswell. | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:30 Xana wrote: I didn't find this response even remotely helpful. I'm argueing from the -defending- players side in this, not from the aggressors. One or two banelings is enough to deflect the lings from said spine, or from the choke at your ramp. Just a handful (6 lings, generally) is enough to make sure he doesn't send in a few lings to kill your banes. Having him run into your mineral line and hold position with the lings will be extremely dangerous as you have those banelings. You don't need three queens to block a ramp, you don't even need lingspeed. If you place your Evochamber/Roachwarren at your expansion as the defending player, you can make it impossible for the aggressive player to do any damage with the first attack. ^ If this tactic can deflect the 24 +1 speedlings all-in at 6min 20, I believe I can shut down your first attack pretty hard aswell. theorycrafting in this forum won't help you, you should ask him to play a skirmish and prove your point... So, if you find any weakness he will just add them to the main post  | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:00 Baseic wrote: After second investigation, you're right, most 15 hatch barely have banes by 6 mins when going speed first. So it depends on if queens can hold you off long enough and if he has spent his injects already. Exactly. And when you do afford banes, it'll only be 2-3 at first - that's where micro comes in handy ^^ But even if you do end up just killing a queen, a few lings, maybe the spine, you have to remember you're droning behind this. Yes, your initial drone count (16) is low but it's enough to fully saturate 1 base. If you rally to your expansion and start producing drones right at 42, you'd be surprised how quickly you can catch up and even pull ahead in income. Most games against banelings, you're just looking to do damage and secure map control, you're not looking to win outright (though it's absolutely possible). The thing you should be most concerned about is determining whether a ling/bane counter attack is coming. That's the real threat when using this baneling-less opening. However, it's definitely an option to do the ling opening and transition into defensive ling/bane afterwords. | ||
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