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On February 09 2012 08:41 Djeez wrote:
The fact that all those guides are super viable really makes me lose faith in Starcraft 2 as a competitive game.
Oh chill. It's a cool aggressive style that is really good vs people that don't have experience vs it or good knowledge of ZvZ. Tang should make you have faith in SC2 because someone can go on the ladder with the goal of killing people with cool tactics early(terran TLO style with zerg, really) and figure out things that work a lot. I mean what if tang invented the roach bane bust that leenock did so much in the GSL? Hate on that too?
On topic: I prefer to do the quick 4 bane opener, it's really fun for me and can neuter the eco and I'm safe from counters with good micro. From there, I like to go roach and then infestor or queen/infestor if the opponent goes roach or muta. This just isn't my style but it could be some fun if I was looking to take down a tourney and I got into like a bo5 vs another zerg.
TY tang! :D
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On February 09 2012 10:30 CHOBRO wrote:
Thanks Tang for a well written and crisp build order.
it is practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making lings.
this is so untrue. You always need to run by a ling every so often to check the gas and the tech he is going for anyway. how can you not know whether he is droning or making lings. Or you could park an overlord if there is deadspace behind his mineral line of the natural, surely you can see how many drones are coming out.
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ha you should have called it "rush recklessly" like the yugioh card 
anyways thanks for sharing this guide, the zergling picture at the top is sick too
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i dont like this style.
it seems like a coinflip to me. IMO zerg should be played reactively. its not just about aggression, its about aggression at the right times.
instead of just saying "ill attack at XX time", it should be "if X then Y". "if he invested in spines, ill make more drones for an economic advantage"
"if he has banelings, then ill get roaches to defend"
"if he has 3 banelings only for defense, ill make 10 roaches and kill him"
etc.
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Look at everybody in this thread... It's a guide to an allin. A strong all-in but an all-in. Yes, an all in sort of relies on your opponent not knowing how to stop it, but how you stop it, might be very hard and only a certain number of opening build orders are able to do it. Hence making it strong. He is not telling you how to win everygame you ever play under every circumstance ever. He is just showing an all-in that works well in a matchup, because who-knows, a lot of reasons. People don't know how to stop it, current openings just suck against it.
It's just an allin in a matchup where it pays to be aggressive. Chill out.
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On February 09 2012 13:09 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 12:59 6xFPCs wrote:On February 09 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
People who do these strategies are a free win on ladder, provided you are using good builds and can scout. On some maps they are definitely more powerful, but even then if your strategy is to make 40-50 lings as the bulk of your army you better hope your opponent has no banelings and no +1 roaches. If your opponent really sucks at scouting and is saving for mutas/infestors you can hit a timing, but if they see you coming and just make stuff you won't do any damage.
To be frank, 1 base ling/baneling all-inning is going to be a lot more successful and only requires minimal micro in comparison. These delayed all-ins are a complete coinflip. For the purposes of this post, I am giving tang the benefit of the doubt on his belief that 40 lings can out-micro a defensive bling build with regularity. ophidian, do you see both defensive bling and fast +1 roach holding this? I have a feeling that there won't be enough roaches to hold the natural, only enough to plug the ramp--in which case, losing your natural is a foregone conclusion, right? Tang, I think +1 roaches are in fact one of the things you haven't covered. I like to hear what you think of a defensive roach into +1 roach timing (can it defend the 40ish lings?), as well as fast +1 roach (does +1 kick in early enough?). I'm talking about 2 base in both cases. I said what I said because people play like this a lot and it's very easy to deal with provided you scout and react. The fact that other popular styles like roach/baneling or +1 roach attacks counter the styles suggested in this thread also don't bode well for people who wish to try them. Yes, they're strong all-ins, but there are better ones that don't rely on your opponent playing poorly and can transition a lot better.
Right, we're definitely talking about two-base scenarios in all cases. I'm mostly curious to see if a roach defense could be a more reliable (read: non-micro) way to defend against this kind of mass ling attack, but I suspect there's no way to protect both your ramp and your natural. It sounds like you're saying that anything short of fast tech will hold this if you scout it and prepare, I'm just curious about specifics in the roach case.
Plus, Tang seems serious about being able to beat a defensive baneling build. Hoping to hear his opinion, too, but at this point I may as well just go test it myself.
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I think RodrigoX is right. A lot of Tang's builds point out flaws in the current meta-game which then people call them "all-ins." Most of his builds work because they attack an opponent when they are off guard in a normal game. (Normal meaning obeying by the current meta-game more or less.) That is why Tang is so inavative, he is a player that really understands how to exploit weaknesses! If every game you played you say an opportunity to kill your opponent, you would do it no matter what time it was at on the in game clock. This is precisely what Tang looks for, "opportunities!"
Good job Tang and this is one thorough guide!!!
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Just relying on exploiting the metagame is just really shaky play though imo. Id have no problem with an aggressive player who often chooses all in play when they scout a riskier build or something they think they can punish, but that you can get so high on ladder just by saying, "oh im going to make 7 roaches and 50 lings before 9 mins every ZvZ because a large amount of people are too bad to stop it" is kind of depressing.
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On February 09 2012 08:06 TangSC wrote:
You cannot be too aggressive in ZvZ. I've never heard a player say “I need to play more passive in ZvZ, I think I'd win more.”
Wile like I said in your other guide that aggressive play is great for learning, aggressive early game play shouldn't ever work in ZvZ. There are a lot of players who do approach the early game with a very passive style. IdrA for example. The most optimal way to play in theory is to absorb someone elses attack with a few drones more than him, using the defenders advantage to be able to handle engagements with fewer units/larvae. Of course, human error is a large part of why aggressive play does end up working; no one micros/macros perfectly. I still believe a more wholesome way of learning would be speed expand into defensive ling/bane or light pressure versus a 15 hatch. Besides that, I believe this is a really good guide that should help out a lot of learning zerg players; thanks for putting in the time/effort!
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On February 09 2012 14:58 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 13:09 oOOoOphidian wrote:On February 09 2012 12:59 6xFPCs wrote:On February 09 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
People who do these strategies are a free win on ladder, provided you are using good builds and can scout. On some maps they are definitely more powerful, but even then if your strategy is to make 40-50 lings as the bulk of your army you better hope your opponent has no banelings and no +1 roaches. If your opponent really sucks at scouting and is saving for mutas/infestors you can hit a timing, but if they see you coming and just make stuff you won't do any damage.
To be frank, 1 base ling/baneling all-inning is going to be a lot more successful and only requires minimal micro in comparison. These delayed all-ins are a complete coinflip. For the purposes of this post, I am giving tang the benefit of the doubt on his belief that 40 lings can out-micro a defensive bling build with regularity. ophidian, do you see both defensive bling and fast +1 roach holding this? I have a feeling that there won't be enough roaches to hold the natural, only enough to plug the ramp--in which case, losing your natural is a foregone conclusion, right? Tang, I think +1 roaches are in fact one of the things you haven't covered. I like to hear what you think of a defensive roach into +1 roach timing (can it defend the 40ish lings?), as well as fast +1 roach (does +1 kick in early enough?). I'm talking about 2 base in both cases. I said what I said because people play like this a lot and it's very easy to deal with provided you scout and react. The fact that other popular styles like roach/baneling or +1 roach attacks counter the styles suggested in this thread also don't bode well for people who wish to try them. Yes, they're strong all-ins, but there are better ones that don't rely on your opponent playing poorly and can transition a lot better. Right, we're definitely talking about two-base scenarios in all cases. I'm mostly curious to see if a roach defense could be a more reliable (read: non-micro) way to defend against this kind of mass ling attack, but I suspect there's no way to protect both your ramp and your natural. It sounds like you're saying that anything short of fast tech will hold this if you scout it and prepare, I'm just curious about specifics in the roach case. Plus, Tang seems serious about being able to beat a defensive baneling build. Hoping to hear his opinion, too, but at this point I may as well just go test it myself.
I usually go for defensive roach builds into 2-3 hatch muta and all it takes is scouting (gas timings are one good indication in addition to drone counts etc.) and pumping units to hold both of these attacks. I don't even usually get +1 attack, but if someone is going for an offensive roach timing with +1 they will obviously fare even better and be able to counter attack you easily for a win. When I defend stuff like this I usually just go straight into mutas and take a third and the all-in put them so far behind that they can't really even defend that or stop my third. Spines and pulling drones can help, especially if you have good micro and against the baneling variation just target banelings whenever possible.
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On February 09 2012 14:58 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 13:09 oOOoOphidian wrote:On February 09 2012 12:59 6xFPCs wrote:On February 09 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
People who do these strategies are a free win on ladder, provided you are using good builds and can scout. On some maps they are definitely more powerful, but even then if your strategy is to make 40-50 lings as the bulk of your army you better hope your opponent has no banelings and no +1 roaches. If your opponent really sucks at scouting and is saving for mutas/infestors you can hit a timing, but if they see you coming and just make stuff you won't do any damage.
To be frank, 1 base ling/baneling all-inning is going to be a lot more successful and only requires minimal micro in comparison. These delayed all-ins are a complete coinflip. For the purposes of this post, I am giving tang the benefit of the doubt on his belief that 40 lings can out-micro a defensive bling build with regularity. ophidian, do you see both defensive bling and fast +1 roach holding this? I have a feeling that there won't be enough roaches to hold the natural, only enough to plug the ramp--in which case, losing your natural is a foregone conclusion, right? Tang, I think +1 roaches are in fact one of the things you haven't covered. I like to hear what you think of a defensive roach into +1 roach timing (can it defend the 40ish lings?), as well as fast +1 roach (does +1 kick in early enough?). I'm talking about 2 base in both cases. I said what I said because people play like this a lot and it's very easy to deal with provided you scout and react. The fact that other popular styles like roach/baneling or +1 roach attacks counter the styles suggested in this thread also don't bode well for people who wish to try them. Yes, they're strong all-ins, but there are better ones that don't rely on your opponent playing poorly and can transition a lot better. Right, we're definitely talking about two-base scenarios in all cases. I'm mostly curious to see if a roach defense could be a more reliable (read: non-micro) way to defend against this kind of mass ling attack, but I suspect there's no way to protect both your ramp and your natural. It sounds like you're saying that anything short of fast tech will hold this if you scout it and prepare, I'm just curious about specifics in the roach case. Plus, Tang seems serious about being able to beat a defensive baneling build. Hoping to hear his opinion, too, but at this point I may as well just go test it myself.
Roach openings get rolled by this style, it's just too many lings for them to defend the ramp and their expansion - baneling defense is the best option but with good micro you can still win with just the pure-ling, and the roach/ling transition is timed specifically to counter baneling openings. The thing most of the skeptical players are overlooking is how annoying 42 lings can be at the 6 minute mark - they're like "Yeah I'll just build roaches or banelings in that scenario and easy win" but it's nothing like that, in actuality. I've played best of 5-7 series with strong zergs and won every game with this build (different transition after the lings, of course). It's not a pure "metagame tactic" as some people suggest, it's a safe and solid way to put on pressure and secure an economic advantage OR transition into a follow-up timing attack.
I would absolutely open this style against an opponent who knew it was coming and still expect to win the vast majority of the time.
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How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title?
Also isn't it contradictory that you say this:
So many players just do the one base, 14/14 baneling all-in, early pool rushes, or the Destiny style Roach/Ling all-in. Obviously these styles can win you games, but it's very one-dimensional and not likely to help you improve.
when this guide, and basically all the other ones you've written, are about a one or 2 base all in?
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On February 09 2012 21:14 TheSubtleArt wrote:How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title? Also isn't it contradictory that you say this: Show nested quote +So many players just do the one base, 14/14 baneling all-in, early pool rushes, or the Destiny style Roach/Ling all-in. Obviously these styles can win you games, but it's very one-dimensional and not likely to help you improve. when this guide, and basically all the other ones you've written, are about a one or 2 base all in?
Very few of my guides are about all-ins. There are a wide variety of macro transitions available in ZvZ after putting on pressure and securing map control. This is a style that is completely safe against cheese and lets you take control of the matchup by executing early timing attacks that do damage, have a chance to win, and give you the freedom to drone behind. Not a lot of zerg vs zerg styles allow that, and I think a lot of players wish they didn't have to play a defensive guessing game.
If you watch the stream videos, you'll see that what I'm encouraging zerg players to do in ZvZ is drone while they have map control instead of just doing it blindly. As I've repeated, even players who have a macro agenda but don't quite have a solid/safe opening can benefit from using this build for safety, transitioning to a style of their choice (spines/mutas, evo/roaches, etc) This is an alternative style that to standard macro that works quite while against any opening, assuming equal skill level. And I've had a lot of fun with it too!
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Cool guide,but the 42 ling attack can be crushed by defensive banes while he drones up and actually all people go bling even if just a few for saftey so its like hoping he dosen't get defensive banes
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On February 09 2012 21:21 GiftPflanZe wrote:
Cool guide,but the 42 ling attack can be crushed by defensive banes while he drones up and actually all people go bling even if just a few for saftey so its like hoping he dosen't get defensive banes
At first glance it may seem that way, but you have to understand by the 5:30-6:00 minute mark, half the people who open banelings will have none morphed yet and die. Also, if your opponent overdrones or opens roaches, they're going to be VERY hardpressed to hold the ling push. And if they do any 1 base all-in, you can shut it down pretty easily with good micro (following the steps of stream tutorial 4).
The only time you aren't GUARANTEED to do enough damage to win or at least make the ling investment worthwhile is if he gets very early banelings and produces nothing but zerglings (no drones). If he's going defensive banelings and trying to drone, he's still going to get overrun - he has to make a lot of zerglings to hold, which means you can actually pull ahead in econ in this situation. Also, since he invests so much gas/minerals into ling/bane defense, it makes your roach/ling transition that much stronger. If you time the ling pressure well, as the build in the guide shows, and micro your lings without losing too many too banelings, you can actually win against a baneling defense or end the engagement with a drone advantage and a roach warren building.
You also get 100% scouting information of his tech choice, how many units he's building and how many drones he has - and full freedom to drone/respond in whichever way you prefer.
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On February 09 2012 21:14 TheSubtleArt wrote:
How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title?
Because I'm an English major who loves alliteration?! 
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On February 09 2012 08:51 lindn wrote:
Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.
Standard stuff as usual.
Lol what are you saying? He clearly says that u can transition... Please try it before u state that its a allin!
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I like your guides Tang, keep it up. I feel the best way to play zvz is to dictate the pace, if the player is straight up better than you and rects well chances are you would lose a macro game anyway. Putting pressure on players is how you eek out leads, like a dropping terran can come back into a game when behind.
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i don't understand why so many bad comments.. all in are part of the game, so have a nice write up on this is very good. The tutorial is very accurate, full of examples, explanations and picture.. i enjoy it.
A player can try it or not, its your choice.. but its a possibility! everyone has his own playstyle. I appreciate the effort and the time tang spended for this thread.
And for istance, ladder is full of allinner and cheeser.. so know about cheesy or allin build is nice in every case.
And anyway u can transition from this style.. so it double worth for me.
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The ridiculous amount of hate in this thread is a little unbelievable. Just because the style isn't to your liking doesn't automatically mean its of the devil's loins as most of you would seem to have us believe with all your raging.
I have read all of Tang's posts thus far this one included and have found very few flaws in what he says for the low to moderate skill level zerg players such as myself. I can't speak for skill levels higher than Gold/Platinum, but from an up and coming player having these kinds of strategies in our bag of tricks is important. This guide in particular is interesting because it gives you an option for an aggressive opening that allows you to focus on both microing your attacking units and multitasking while macroing back home. The people saying its an all-in have clearly not bothered to read the post or watch any of the replays because transitions after the initial attack are covered in both places.
Thank you Tang for another excellently written guide, I look forward to more of them in the future. I'd love to see a vP guide from this aggressive style.
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EPT
