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On May 14 2012 10:09 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 23:52 ChaZzza wrote:
I've been getting a bit bored of unholy macro zerg play recently, mainly coz it feels like I'm endlessly defending and once BL do pop my opponent gg's. So this is a nice strat to play with. I've opened with this style and made it to broodlords! There is a lot of room to read between the lines with a style like this, it's just my own personal preference to be aggressive all game long.
That's precisely what I love about your strategies: they allow for aggressive, fun play, but also allow, if the user wishes, to transition to an economic build at any point. Admittedly not all your builds have this flexibility, but what can you do? Not everything is perfect.
Also, I was wondering, do you possibly have an aggressive Zerg build that finds good use for Infestors? I've seen some of your other guides describing Infestor use, though none seem to have the laid-out format that this build has, for example the opening, mid-game transition, and late-game transition. Infestors are some of my favorite units, and I sometimes find it hard to incorporate them in my aggressive play. Usually it's because I feel that I can't afford to spend my resources on such units, or it's that I feel too pressed to do so. An aggressive build that strongly incorporates (though doesn't necessarily revolve around) the use of Infestors would be amazing. I apologize if you already have a guide for a strategy like this and I missed it somehow.
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On May 20 2012 16:29 Malgent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 10:09 TangSC wrote:On May 11 2012 23:52 ChaZzza wrote:
I've been getting a bit bored of unholy macro zerg play recently, mainly coz it feels like I'm endlessly defending and once BL do pop my opponent gg's. So this is a nice strat to play with. I've opened with this style and made it to broodlords! There is a lot of room to read between the lines with a style like this, it's just my own personal preference to be aggressive all game long. That's precisely what I love about your strategies: they allow for aggressive, fun play, but also allow, if the user wishes, to transition to an economic build at any point. Admittedly not all your builds have this flexibility, but what can you do? Not everything is perfect. Also, I was wondering, do you possibly have an aggressive Zerg build that finds good use for Infestors? I've seen some of your other guides describing Infestor use, though none seem to have the laid-out format that this build has, for example the opening, mid-game transition, and late-game transition. Infestors are some of my favorite units, and I sometimes find it hard to incorporate them in my aggressive play. Usually it's because I feel that I can't afford to spend my resources on such units, or it's that I feel too pressed to do so. An aggressive build that strongly incorporates (though doesn't necessarily revolve around) the use of Infestors would be amazing. I apologize if you already have a guide for a strategy like this and I missed it somehow.
I use 4-6 infestors when I'm going for a maxed-out push against Terran or Zerg, but I haven't written a guide on it. Perhaps I'll do a new guide on the composition I use in late game ZvZ (12-16 hydra, 4-6 infestors, and the rest roaches with +2+2)
EDIT: Also, sometimes I make a TON of zerglings in ZvT (after I reach full 2-base saturation with a 3rd hatchery building) and end up winning with Speedling/Infestor aggression if they overextend their army or lose all their hellions.
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On May 21 2012 00:18 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 16:29 Malgent wrote:On May 14 2012 10:09 TangSC wrote:On May 11 2012 23:52 ChaZzza wrote:
I've been getting a bit bored of unholy macro zerg play recently, mainly coz it feels like I'm endlessly defending and once BL do pop my opponent gg's. So this is a nice strat to play with. I've opened with this style and made it to broodlords! There is a lot of room to read between the lines with a style like this, it's just my own personal preference to be aggressive all game long. That's precisely what I love about your strategies: they allow for aggressive, fun play, but also allow, if the user wishes, to transition to an economic build at any point. Admittedly not all your builds have this flexibility, but what can you do? Not everything is perfect. Also, I was wondering, do you possibly have an aggressive Zerg build that finds good use for Infestors? I've seen some of your other guides describing Infestor use, though none seem to have the laid-out format that this build has, for example the opening, mid-game transition, and late-game transition. Infestors are some of my favorite units, and I sometimes find it hard to incorporate them in my aggressive play. Usually it's because I feel that I can't afford to spend my resources on such units, or it's that I feel too pressed to do so. An aggressive build that strongly incorporates (though doesn't necessarily revolve around) the use of Infestors would be amazing. I apologize if you already have a guide for a strategy like this and I missed it somehow. I use 4-6 infestors when I'm going for a maxed-out push against Terran or Zerg, but I haven't written a guide on it. Perhaps I'll do a new guide on the composition I use in late game ZvZ (12-16 hydra, 4-6 infestors, and the rest roaches with +2+2) EDIT: Also, sometimes I make a TON of zerglings in ZvT (after I reach full 2-base saturation with a 3rd hatchery building) and end up winning with Speedling/Infestor aggression if they overextend their army or lose all their hellions.
Okay, thanks. Speedling/Infestor Aggression in ZvT sounds like something interesting I could try to experiment with. Certainly it sounds fun~
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hi tang,
what is the best response using this build to the 4 queen spine openings gaining popularity after the patch?
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No offense but this thread basically screams, "I'm not gonna macro and I hope to win a victory in the least skilled way possible." Once you get up to higher leagues this is pwned easily and I am very disgruntled that it is recommended.
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On May 21 2012 06:27 Lord Gilgamesh wrote:
No offense but this thread basically screams, "I'm not gonna macro and I hope to win a victory in the least skilled way possible." Once you get up to higher leagues this is pwned easily and I am very disgruntled that it is recommended.
Tang uses this strategy and is in Masters currently and has been in Grandmaster three times, I think. Are there higher leagues I'm unaware of?
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On May 21 2012 06:27 Lord Gilgamesh wrote:
No offense but this thread basically screams, "I'm not gonna macro and I hope to win a victory in the least skilled way possible." Once you get up to higher leagues this is pwned easily and I am very disgruntled that it is recommended.
First time posting.
A thread like this is more of different type of meta game you can play. Some people play macro and some play rush (of course, there are lots in between). Each have its pros and its cons.
I don't think a strategy is less skilled just because it is not macro oriented.
When I play, I like to have 2-3 builds in I can play. A macro and a timed play (or rush, or all in, whatever you like to call it). Of course, there's lots of variety in between.
For macro, you play to get the end game lead but you risk getting rush or lose in the early/mid game.
For all-in or rush, you sacrifice the end game and aim to win in early or mid.
There's no right or wrong. It is just your style. That's part of the game, there are risks you have to take for every strategy you make. Besides, it is good to have variety so it keeps your opponent guessing.
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On May 21 2012 06:03 patzernuk wrote:
hi tang,
what is the best response using this build to the 4 queen spine openings gaining popularity after the patch?
The way the build works out, you have a few options of when you can cut zergling production. I personally prefer cutting at about 42 supply because it allows me to be more aggressive and I always find a way to do something with speedlings. However, if you use the first inject only on lings, it puts you at about 30-31 supply, so you could always go right into drone production there. He'll have the 4 queens and a spine, and will likely produce a few extra sets of lings when he sees the lings streaming across the map - should give you a nice window to drone up while you poke.
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Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there.
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On July 19 2012 06:14 RequiemAe wrote:
Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there.
I disagree. Having the superior ling count means you can always engage in ling on ling battles. If you're losing to banelings, then you're either making a big micro mistake (losing all your lings to banelings) or dying to an all-in counter-attack (likely because you're building drones when you don't have enough lings on the field). Worst case scenario, you can spine up your expansion if you suspect he'll baneling bust you.
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On July 23 2012 04:11 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 06:14 RequiemAe wrote:
Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there. I disagree. Having the superior ling count means you can always engage in ling on ling battles. If you're losing to banelings, then you're either making a big micro mistake (losing all your lings to banelings) or dying to an all-in counter-attack (likely because you're building drones when you don't have enough lings on the field). Worst case scenario, you can spine up your expansion if you suspect he'll baneling bust you.
I think hes refering to defensive banelings couple with other defenses (roch transition/spines) for roaches. And i'd agree i dont think you can reliably do damage without far superior micro. Ling on ling battles shouldnt occur unless he is being agressive aswell. Would be very willing to test this.
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Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there.
I have a 80% win rate(according to sc2 gears it's actually a little higher) in ZvZ since I started using this build actually(3 or 4 months ago, at 900-1000pt Masters). It's amazing how many zergs think that they just build 2-4 banelings and their opponent shouldn't ever even force the issue. With good micro ( my micro isn't code s for sure ) I usually break anyone who doesn't at least also have 1 or 2 spines as well as 4 banes +( sometimes I break them still if they are really sloppy ). All it takes is 4-6 lings onto the banes and your opponent failing to move command the banes in a half second and you insta win, ZvZ is really stupid like that unfortunately.
Lately I've even stopped droning behind the ling pressure because I checked my win-rate in ZvZ with sc2 gears and saw how ridiculously successful the early ling pressure was at just flat out ending games even with me droning behind it.
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On July 23 2012 04:37 Ralethon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 04:11 TangSC wrote:On July 19 2012 06:14 RequiemAe wrote:
Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there. I disagree. Having the superior ling count means you can always engage in ling on ling battles. If you're losing to banelings, then you're either making a big micro mistake (losing all your lings to banelings) or dying to an all-in counter-attack (likely because you're building drones when you don't have enough lings on the field). Worst case scenario, you can spine up your expansion if you suspect he'll baneling bust you. I think hes refering to defensive banelings couple with other defenses (roch transition/spines) for roaches. And i'd agree i dont think you can reliably do damage without far superior micro. Ling on ling battles shouldnt occur unless he is being agressive aswell. Would be very willing to test this.
That's a fair point. However, if your opponent is playing that defensive, you at least have complete map control with the ability to poke/prod his expansion. This means you can safely drone up behind it, and since you aren't building banes/roaches early, you should secure an economic lead.
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I think hes refering to defensive banelings couple with other defenses (roch transition/spines) for roaches. And i'd agree i dont think you can reliably do damage without far superior micro. Ling on ling battles shouldnt occur unless he is being agressive aswell. Would be very willing to test this.
He won't have roaches out when the aggression first hits. If he does he cannot have any banelings, which means his natural is dead. If he try's to defend the natural just keep attacking the furthest side of the natural until he finally comes all they way down the ramp. When he does come down just have 12-16 lings in another control group ready to dart up the ramp ( have them between the natural and the ramp, just outside of range of the roaches ). It's literally not possible to defend the natural if you open roaches and if you open baneling/spine or baneling/slow ling your still going to have a hard time managing saving your natural and guarding the ramp, but I think the defender does have some advantage here. Most people just aren't actually used to controlling the engagements properly I guess, it still amazes me how often I kill people who have 4-6 banes and 2 or 3 spines, and I still kill them with 24 lings+ 12-20 more rallied in 30 sec later or so.
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On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:
Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.
And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.
As I see it, you can generalize a playstyle to 2 things: Either you attack the enemy with a superior army/tech/upgrades and hope to hurt him or even beat him, or you defend versus said attack and hope to come out on top because of your advantage in economy/tech/upgrades.
Now, as terran or protoss, you can simply make workers until 80 non-stop, as it won't hurt you that much. Sure, some timings like 4 gate etc. will be delayed, but simply put, you don't lose much on making workers the entire game...
Now, as zerg, you have to choose to make either a worker or an attacking unit. This mechanic forces you to choose between economy and army, and this is the reason for the extreme "DRONES" or "UNITS".
If you make 5 drones (250 minerals), you will boost your economy a lot. If you make 3 drones and 2 roaches (150+150 minerals and 50 gas), you will end up with less economy and 2 useless roaches.
So a general rule of thumb is:
If you are going to attack or defend, make units!
If you can hold and is safe, make drones!
If you can squeeze in a drone here and there, you are fine, but when you want to attack someone, you mass units until the attack is over. Then you transition by making drones again.
To answer your second question: ZvZ is very defensive because: 1. it is really easy to scout! 2. as you are playing against your own race, the one with better economy should win. and 3. Spinecrawlers and queens can shut down so much aggression!
If you watch Mr. Bitters videos "12 weeks with the pros", and watch the episode with Sheth, you will see that Sheth uses the defenders advantage to be able to copy his opponents build (or at least match the attacking units), but because of the traveling time of the attackers, he can get an extra drone or two, and it adds up by the 15 min mark, and he will simply get a lot more army than you, since he now has better economy.
That's why defensive zerg that has perfect scouting and reactions will always win, because they get this slight economy advantage, and it's up to the aggressor to either hide this attack, or fake him out and get another base.
Hope you find this answer satisfactory!
//Zeweig
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On July 23 2012 06:58 Zeweig wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:
Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.
And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way. To answer your second question: ZvZ is very defensive because: 1. it is really easy to scout! 2. as you are playing against your own race, the one with better economy should win. and 3. Spinecrawlers and queens can shut down so much aggression!
Some professional players play ZvZ very aggressively. When you go for an early timing, you know exactly when to produce units and when to cut production and go back into drones. Your opponent may overcommit to defenses and actually fall behind (or under-produce defences and lose outright).
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On July 23 2012 23:21 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 06:58 Zeweig wrote:On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:
Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.
And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way. To answer your second question: ZvZ is very defensive because: 1. it is really easy to scout! 2. as you are playing against your own race, the one with better economy should win. and 3. Spinecrawlers and queens can shut down so much aggression! Some professional players play ZvZ very aggressively. When you go for an early timing, you know exactly when to produce units and when to cut production and go back into drones. Your opponent may overcommit to defenses and actually fall behind (or under-produce defences and lose outright).
This is very true, and I'm not trying to take anything from you or your guide (both are awesome!). What I mean is that, when the defensive (reactive) scouts perfectly, he will come out on top, simply because he gains so many advantages. But if you catch your opponent with his pants down, you can straight out win or cripple him for serious amounts of time. Aggression is amazing when used properly, but if you expect it, it can easily be countered as well
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On July 25 2012 00:57 Zeweig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:21 TangSC wrote:On July 23 2012 06:58 Zeweig wrote:On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:
Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.
And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way. To answer your second question: ZvZ is very defensive because: 1. it is really easy to scout! 2. as you are playing against your own race, the one with better economy should win. and 3. Spinecrawlers and queens can shut down so much aggression! Some professional players play ZvZ very aggressively. When you go for an early timing, you know exactly when to produce units and when to cut production and go back into drones. Your opponent may overcommit to defenses and actually fall behind (or under-produce defences and lose outright). This is very true, and I'm not trying to take anything from you or your guide (both are awesome!). What I mean is that, when the defensive (reactive) scouts perfectly, he will come out on top, simply because he gains so many advantages. But if you catch your opponent with his pants down, you can straight out win or cripple him for serious amounts of time. Aggression is amazing when used properly, but if you expect it, it can easily be countered as well
I definitely agree, Defender's Advantage 101. Just want to point that there are some advantages to aggressive play as well 
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Thanks alot for this guide TangSC, I have not lost a single ZvZ since I read this guide.
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EPT
