EPTAh, I can't read. xP
[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 21
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InfCereal
Canada1757 Posts
Ah, I can't read. xP | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On April 18 2012 10:03 Forbidden17 wrote: If you like that build so much and blatantly hate Tang's, why don't you make a guide on it? I am only qualified to talk so much about zerg, any guide I wrote on zerg would be a waste of space because I only have limited experience playing as zerg. I do however study a considerable amount of zerg replays, and the game in general; enough to spot the weaknesses in this build. I am not some master zerg, that's why it seems so odd that I can spot the flaws, but a SC2 professional cannot. | ||
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sertman
United States540 Posts
On April 18 2012 10:37 rikter wrote: I am only qualified to talk so much about zerg, any guide I wrote on zerg would be a waste of space because I only have limited experience playing as zerg. . then shut the fuck up rofl you haven't done anything in this thread but talk about why you're credible to talk about how good the guide is and you just completely blew it away with this comment. if you don't play zerg and you only have limited experience playing as zerg, you aren't going to understand the game better than someone who actually plays zerg at a high level. that's why the best analytical casters were at some point in their lives pro players themselves. i know you want to be relevant and have a voice blah blah blah but you don't know what your talking about, and have done nothing but making horribly aspergic arguments about your right to have an opinion (even though you consistently defer to others opinions, not your own because you don't know enough to explain them). and in the end you, a NON-ZERG, are shitting up a perfectly good thread for ZERG players such as myself who enjoy short, aggressive games against OTHER ZERGS enjoy the structure that tangs guides give. seriously what are you doing with your life? User was warned for this post | ||
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IDEnergy
Korea (South)74 Posts
All-in builds are also one of the strats and by doing these all-in builds doesn't make one a bad player. Don't deny the fact because all-in builds are pretty much gambling the match. Anyways, nice build. Nice layout of timings. People might actually learn how to be somewhat aggressive. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
I don't think the fact that I don't play zerg makes my comments any less relevant. They are either apt or they are not. Many people in this thread have echoed my sentiments. I literally spend 2 hours on a typical day watching pro vods, the bulk of which are zerg. You don't need to be king zerg to see how ridiculous this guide is. Has Roger Ebert made a single movie in his life? No? Well then by your logic a beloved and legendary critic should not be crtiquing films. Tang himself plead ignorance on hatch first into 3 queens z v z. He said he had never heard of it. I picked the first z v z I hadn't yet watched and both pros use the build I just described. If he is such an informed player then how did he not know about this? It literally took me 30s to find that vid, and I just wonder how Tang could be so unaware. As far as my life goes I am going to spend it poking holes in weasel's arguments. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 18 2012 20:23 rikter wrote: Any of my original posts would show that this isn't about the build being an all in. I don't think the fact that I don't play zerg makes my comments any less relevant. They are either apt or they are not. Many people in this thread have echoed my sentiments. I literally spend 2 hours on a typical day watching pro vods, the bulk of which are zerg. You don't need to be king zerg to see how ridiculous this guide is. Has Roger Ebert made a single movie in his life? No? Well then by your logic a beloved and legendary critic should not be crtiquing films. Tang himself plead ignorance on hatch first into 3 queens z v z. He said he had never heard of it. I picked the first z v z I hadn't yet watched and both pros use the build I just described. If he is such an informed player then how did he not know about this? It literally took me 30s to find that vid, and I just wonder how Tang could be so unaware. As far as my life goes I am going to spend it poking holes in weasel's arguments. I actually have a lot of problems with Tang myself, but right now, you're just being a dick. | ||
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barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
On April 18 2012 20:23 rikter wrote: Relentless negativity of this kind is something of a blight in this forum (and against the rules). Poking holes for the sake of it is not constructive.Tang himself plead ignorance on hatch first into 3 queens z v z. He said he had never heard of it. I picked the first z v z I hadn't yet watched and both pros use the build I just described. If he is such an informed player then how did he not know about this? It literally took me 30s to find that vid, and I just wonder how Tang could be so unaware. As far as my life goes I am going to spend it poking holes in weasel's arguments. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On April 17 2012 03:27 rikter wrote:3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time for him to adjust his plans if it turns out the situation is wrong. Drone scouting in ZvZ, especially this build, just doesn't make any sense, it's a waste of minerals. All you want to know is if your opponent is 1basing or not, and your overlords find that out for free. You don't need to drone scout to see if it's a hard counter, because there is no such thing. If they are on 1base, getting an extra spine makes sense, and not going for the ling attack. If they have a nat up, you go for the ling timing. There's NOTHING a drone scout tells you which makes any difference at all, yet it costs money to send it.. so why do you claim it's a good idea? | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
IT requires correct precise control though for this build not to fall through completely though. Gj tang. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On April 18 2012 22:40 Tobberoth wrote: Drone scouting in ZvZ, especially this build, just doesn't make any sense, it's a waste of minerals. All you want to know is if your opponent is 1basing or not, and your overlords find that out for free. You don't need to drone scout to see if it's a hard counter, because there is no such thing. If they are on 1base, getting an extra spine makes sense, and not going for the ling attack. If they have a nat up, you go for the ling timing. There's NOTHING a drone scout tells you which makes any difference at all, yet it costs money to send it.. so why do you claim it's a good idea? I mention this because if you want this to be something other than a blind allin, the ovie scout shows up too late. Just blindly doing this seems like setting yourself up for a loss to more than a handful of opponants. Of course showing up with 42 lings at 6 minutes in is going to win you some games, I just think that you need a much better reason than that to not go hatch first, when the hatch first 3 queen build can also generate a 6:00 or so timing attack, has enough to hold against such an attack, and allows you to transition into anything you want. I personally would be interested in finding out as early as possible if I was up against something that can hold the all-in. If you say that you can't afford to lose the mining, then ok, but if your build can't afford the scouting to figure out if youre making a huge mistake or not, then maybe that build needs tweaking.Even if you do scout at 4 and try to transition out, you are at a big disadvantage against hatch first, because unless you attack him his economy will be better from the earlier hatch, and he can hold the attack anyways, so its a lose-lose situation. I think if you want to do the build as is, the most important timing is the hatchery. If he doesn't go hatch first I think you could be in ok shape, but against hatch first I would want to abandon this plan. And that's why if I were hellbent on doing this build, I would scout early, and I think end up less behind because I would be able to transition out earlier. The attack just isn't strong enough and doesn't hit early enough to just do it blind. | ||
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CaptTerrible
United States72 Posts
I mention this because if you want this to be something other than a blind allin, the ovie scout shows up too late. Just blindly doing this seems like setting yourself up for a loss to more than a handful of opponants. Of course showing up with 42 lings at 6 minutes in is going to win you some games, I just think that you need a much better reason than that to not go hatch first, when the hatch first 3 queen build can also generate a 6:00 or so timing attack, has enough to hold against such an attack, and allows you to transition into anything you want. I personally would be interested in finding out as early as possible if I was up against something that can hold the all-in. If you say that you can't afford to lose the mining, then ok, but if your build can't afford the scouting to figure out if youre making a huge mistake or not, then maybe that build needs tweaking.Even if you do scout at 4 and try to transition out, you are at a big disadvantage against hatch first, because unless you attack him his economy will be better from the earlier hatch, and he can hold the attack anyways, so its a lose-lose situation. I think if you want to do the build as is, the most important timing is the hatchery. If he doesn't go hatch first I think you could be in ok shape, but against hatch first I would want to abandon this plan. And that's why if I were hellbent on doing this build, I would scout early, and I think end up less behind because I would be able to transition out earlier. The attack just isn't strong enough and doesn't hit early enough to just do it blind. I don't think your drone scout is going to tell you if the other player is building 3 queens and a spine, it tells you if he expanded or not which is also what your overlord does. I have had no trouble finding the opponents base before 4 minutes with my overlords so I really don't see why using a drone here would be useful in this build. Even afterwards you have 6 lings that you can use to continue and scout for more information. I do think the whole 3 queen spine build is a pretty good defense for this, and I'm not sure what would be the optimal response to so much defense, but at this point we do have map control, and the 17 hatch which I would argue doesn't put us in an auto lose situation. Also I generally start attacking as soon as speed is done, which is well before 41 supply, so you don't necessarily have to build those last few lings. Also, hatch first doesn't always imply this 3 queen + spine defense since many zergs still just defend with banelings. If he can't seal off his main and force you to fight next to his spine there is a very good chance that you can pick of his queens and do some economic damage. Given this I think it would be a bad choice to abandon this build based off a fast expand, I'd rather pull a more economical version of this build and keep up pressure in the case that he doesn't queen wall his ramp. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On April 19 2012 01:21 rikter wrote: I mention this because if you want this to be something other than a blind allin, the ovie scout shows up too late. Just blindly doing this seems like setting yourself up for a loss to more than a handful of opponants. Of course showing up with 42 lings at 6 minutes in is going to win you some games, I just think that you need a much better reason than that to not go hatch first, when the hatch first 3 queen build can also generate a 6:00 or so timing attack, has enough to hold against such an attack, and allows you to transition into anything you want. I personally would be interested in finding out as early as possible if I was up against something that can hold the all-in. If you say that you can't afford to lose the mining, then ok, but if your build can't afford the scouting to figure out if youre making a huge mistake or not, then maybe that build needs tweaking.Even if you do scout at 4 and try to transition out, you are at a big disadvantage against hatch first, because unless you attack him his economy will be better from the earlier hatch, and he can hold the attack anyways, so its a lose-lose situation. I think if you want to do the build as is, the most important timing is the hatchery. If he doesn't go hatch first I think you could be in ok shape, but against hatch first I would want to abandon this plan. And that's why if I were hellbent on doing this build, I would scout early, and I think end up less behind because I would be able to transition out earlier. The attack just isn't strong enough and doesn't hit early enough to just do it blind. There's a good reason most pro zergs do not drone scout: It doesn't tell them anything useful. The scouting information you're talking about is either obtained by overlords or initial lings... drone scouts ONLY see if it's a hatch first or not. Most good players drone scout only if they are hatching first to see if their opponent is going for an early pool... because of this, many players such as snute automatically assumes their opponent is hatching first if they see a drone scout. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
I guess the thing I am having the hardest time with here is that against hatch first, at 6 minutes, hatch first with queens and spine and speedlings can hold this, and be ahead economically. Im not sure what exactly is being exploited at 6 minutes, you know? There doesn't seem to be any real reason to delay the hatchery to go pool first, unless you are really worried about super early pool. And you cant be that worried because no drone scout. Wouldn't any temporary advantage in units that you have be erased by defenders advantage when you show up to fight, and his economy can take care of the rest? tl/dr: Hatch first means more larva, drones, queens and creep. This attack just doesn't seem strong enough to voluntarily give up the benefits of hatch first. | ||
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Stemi
1 Post
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On April 19 2012 04:22 rikter wrote: Gotcha, thank you for clarifying the drone scouting thing. I see now that you are right, the overlord does give you enough time to pull back a bit, and the drone would be driven out before any tech stuff went down anyways. Hatch first isn't necessarily the end of this build. I guess the thing I am having the hardest time with here is that against hatch first, at 6 minutes, hatch first with queens and spine and speedlings can hold this, and be ahead economically. Im not sure what exactly is being exploited at 6 minutes, you know? There doesn't seem to be any real reason to delay the hatchery to go pool first, unless you are really worried about super early pool. And you cant be that worried because no drone scout. Wouldn't any temporary advantage in units that you have be erased by defenders advantage when you show up to fight, and his economy can take care of the rest? tl/dr: Hatch first means more larva, drones, queens and creep. This attack just doesn't seem strong enough to voluntarily give up the benefits of hatch first. Well, I think you could go hatch first if you want, but speed will be delayed by quite a bit, which in turn delays the whole attack. The reason why 6 minutes is good is because a player going for banes after hatch should not have banes ready (I think you can have banes ready with a slick build, but I think they should be morphing as the initial lings hit their base usually). Personally, I always do this attack no matter what I scout because at my level (high plat EU), you will generally do awesome damage no matter what build they went (though it will often not be game winning), I usually kill at least one queen and two workers, sometimes even their nat if they went roach opening and don't defend well. However, I think you can easily play a safer style by being active with your first 6 lings, so you can go back to drone production earlier if you see that your opponent is making a strong defense. I definitely think 3 queens, a spine and lings can hold this attack, but I don't think it's a hard counter... you should be able to do some damage (kill a queen or two) and deny mining for a while, so you have time to drone back into the game. As for this build not being worth losing the benefits of hatch first, that's a bit of a strong statement considering that 14/14 is still very much so a standard in ZvZ. Hatch first is good, especially on larger maps, but it can be a bit coinflippy and hard to defend against early pools and early baneling play. It's really up to personal preference if you prefer hatch first or pool first, and if you're the kind of player who likes to pool first, I'd say this build is great if you want to be aggressive. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
With 14/14 you could get early banes, and with that you can exploit your opponant bc you got tech early, and you could punish him for being greedy. Honestly though I think if you hit with the first 22 lings earlier and drone behind it you could be better off. Because come 6 min the other guy has ling speed too, so youve missed your window where you actually have a tech advantage. | ||
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ZeroSix
England54 Posts
even if you dont all in its good to get a lead by killing some drones and a queen or 2. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 19 2012 04:22 rikter wrote: I guess the thing I am having the hardest time with here is that against hatch first, at 6 minutes, hatch first with queens and spine and speedlings can hold this, and be ahead economically. Im not sure what exactly is being exploited at 6 minutes, you know? There doesn't seem to be any real reason to delay the hatchery to go pool first, unless you are really worried about super early pool. It does make it easier to deal with early pool, but also you get your first queen earlier. That means you actually can engage at the opponent's expansion by 5:45 or so (with 22lings and speed). I should have mentioned this in the OP and I will edit it, because it's a crucial timing to hit and do some damage before spines/queens/banes. If you're able to kill a queen or 2-3 morphing banes with your first 22 lings, you're almost guaranteed to end it with the reinforcements. Here's a game I played against Nerchio the other day: http://drop.sc/163564 Edit: I've actually uploaded a few more from the last few days, showing situations where even if you're behind due to your opponent playing well, you can still win with the follow-up roach ling or the second follow-up 3hatch roach/ling: http://drop.sc/163571 http://drop.sc/163572 http://drop.sc/161020 | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
 I want to know if that hatch first build is as safe as if feels like for me. | ||
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barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
You really think the faster ling speed is worth it? Hatch first does get speed later but it doesn't have to be that much later. In Idra v symbol idra opens hatch first into early baneling nest and still had an attack at 6 min. Symbol could have attacked at 6 minutes, if he wasn't defending. The first attack is when ling speed is done so I'd say the timing is pretty important. I thought the 17 hatch 16 queen stuff was a little bit strange so I ran the requirements through one of those optimisers to see if it would come up with a better order for reaching the same position (I took the time for speed finishing and a count of the lings), and the optimiser came up with the 17 hatch 16 queen thing as well (on its own), so for that particular timing I would say the build is optimised. Anyway this guide is as much a playing philosophy as it is a strict order. You could play like this after a 14/14 and probably the experience would be similar, but while that gets speed earlier you wouldn't have as sizeable a ling army when it finishes, and your hatch is delayed somewhat. A mass ling timing would come much later.With 14/14 you could get early banes, and with that you can exploit your opponant bc you got tech early, and you could punish him for being greedy. Honestly though I think if you hit with the first 22 lings earlier and drone behind it you could be better off. Because come 6 min the other guy has ling speed too, so youve missed your window where you actually have a tech advantage. Edit: lol at the Nerchio game; he knew what was coming and still lost. | ||
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