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[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 20

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Destroyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany299 Posts
April 16 2012 17:29 GMT
#381
Tang i wonder why you chose to go for 14/14 pool / gas. I believe (but I am only platinum - consider my zvz the best of my matchups) the hatch first is superior to a pool first opening as a pool first sets you behind if your oponent is taking hatch first and going for roach +1/+1 timing. Because you invest in a - at first defensive build - to switch into hard timings. Your opponent can defend with banes or roaches by blocking of the ramp (except taldarim) and spines... the decision to take early gas is also a bit to expensive economywise. If i cut gas for some more drones i can get a strong footing to switch into hard ling/bane aggression or fast lair tech. Also I am pretty safe against every timing (despite some unfavorable spawnings on soem maps with close distance and opponen goes for 9/10 pool rush). Is it just the low nivaeu of my placement that makes some strong attacks of opponent not work or is their micro to bad. So that my style doesn't have a future vs higher opponents (as I got crushed yesterday by an much higher placed opponent with very defensive roach turtle mode on orhana)?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 16 2012 17:35 GMT
#382
On April 17 2012 02:25 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 17 2012 01:57 TangSC wrote:
On April 17 2012 01:43 FairForever wrote:
On April 17 2012 01:41 TangSC wrote:
On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote:
On April 17 2012 01:20 1A.Browbeat wrote:
My ZvZ has definitely improved using this opening. I don't use the roach transition and other aspects, but the initial ling flood and timing of the queen seem to work pretty well against almost any build. Also, it is tough for zerg to know this is what you are going to do even if he is scouting in your base. A lot of ZvZ consists of trying to secure an advantage so you can simply outproduce your opponent. getting the two early queens and the speed means that if they have gone for banes/ too many spines/ late 2nd queen, they will have a tough time keeping up with your production and so you've arrived at that point where you can outproduce them right at the start.

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.

I say it over and over, SC2 has too much variety to claim that any matchup revolves around specific fundamentals. Upgraded roach/infestor mid-games with a max hydra/roach/infestor late game is very common in ZvZ, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to play. There are various 1-base timings like Ling/baneling, 2 base timings like roach/ling/baneling all-ins, and even tech-oriented play like fast mutalisk. Furthermore, many players execute timing attacks and then transition into standard play (In fact Stephano opens with a Ling style very similar to this one then transitions into double evo roach/infestor).

The widespread belief on the NA server is that cheese/all-in is bad manner. People get upset when they lose to all-in timings, and they assume players who do these types of builds can't play a longer game. What many fail to acknowledge is that a timing attack can just be a way to win the game, or a way to secure an advantage/momentum while transitioning.

The problem with this opening is it doesn't seem to have a proper transition into roach/infestor. Sure you get roaches but you're not getting a lair so it's another all-in. It's not a problem per se, it's an issue that players who use it aren't playing standard and aren't developing proper macro techniques that are essential in most ZvZs.

This isn't a guide to playing roach/infestor, it's not a guide to standard macro. If players want to play a straight-up roach/infestor macro game, that's fine - it's not what I'm analyzing here.


I agree - it's not your responsibility to teach them to play roach/infestor.

I was responding to the person above who said he's been using this to win more ZvZ games.

Oh I thought you were saying that you've judged this guide based on it's ability to help zerg players improve roach/infestor macro, which I think is unfair since that isn't the purpose.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 16 2012 17:38 GMT
#383
On April 17 2012 02:29 Destroyr wrote:
Tang i wonder why you chose to go for 14/14 pool / gas. I believe (but I am only platinum - consider my zvz the best of my matchups) the hatch first is superior to a pool first opening as a pool first sets you behind if your oponent is taking hatch first and going for roach +1/+1 timing.

I prefer pool first because it allows me to get speed/queens earlier, the earlier you can start the ling aggression the better.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
1A.Browbeat
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada26 Posts
April 16 2012 18:02 GMT
#384
On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what level do you play at?

My concern is that this build doesn't really teach you the fundamentals of playing ZvZ - if I know my opponent is playing this build, I will win every single time.

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.


I'm low masters.
...
HyDrA_solic
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Portugal491 Posts
April 16 2012 18:24 GMT
#385
I won using this build vs GM's Zergs.
2 points you need to know:
1) Make sure he knows you made the hatch for drones, by sending 2, 3drones there,
2) Hide your attacking lings, This means use only 6 lings to map control first, hide the rest. Then when speed finishes go for it.

Another thing that almost always happens. With the 1st queen, send her too the natural, inject there, and search for the overlord and kill it. I can do this 75% of the times. Protect that queen with your first 6lings.
It's all about the reflections of freedom. Even though he hoped for a better world, with all his strenght, all his will, the most he could do was to make her smile.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-16 18:35:16
April 16 2012 18:27 GMT
#386
I have some more questions about the build Tang.

1) If you are on a map with 4 spawns, and aren't using MLG versions or whatever, then what do you do when your ovie rolls up to an empty natural at 4 minutes because you went the wrong way?

2) At the 6 minute mark, it is no trouble at all for hatch first to have 3 queens, 2 spines, some speedlings and more drones. A third spine could be added as you move out (his ovie will know when you do), and his first wave of reinforcements will hit at about the same time you show up. He has a greater economy, defender advantage, fight on spines advantage, pull drones advantage, queen transfuse advantage, and when he holds the attack he is going to take all these advantages and roll you. He won't drone scout either, but unlike your build, his can easily hold what you are throwing, so the late scout isn't such a big deal. His ovie scout at 4 min gives him enough time to respond to what you are doing. Your lack of scouting and consideration of what your opponant is doing seem to be a real flaws in the guide. It's just a blind all-in.

3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time for him to adjust his plans if it turns out the situation is wrong.

The drone scout could be used to harass and be annoying and generally just force the other guy to pay attention to it. The drone can help you spot if they are over or under droning. The drone gives you exact timings. The drone could also be used in an early speedling pressure; use it to build a proxy spine to support the attack, like a terran bunker rush: push in with a few lings and start the spine, if he has just been droning, with only a few lings and a queen with no spine, he either needs to pull drones to deal with this which costs him mining or he needs to make units, which will give you some time to catch up. You can punish him if he gets greedy, but If you don't scout what your opponant is up to, all you are really doing is just going all in and hoping that the other guy isn't doing A B or C, and I do not think that such a strategy merits a guide like this.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-16 18:39:26
April 16 2012 18:38 GMT
#387
On April 17 2012 03:27 rikter wrote:
I have some more questions about the build Tang.

1) If you are on a map with 4 spawns, and aren't using MLG versions or whatever, then what do you do when your ovie rolls up to an empty natural at 4 minutes because you went the wrong way?

2) At the 6 minute mark, it is no trouble at all for hatch first to have 3 queens, 2 spines, some speedlings and more drones. A third spine could be added as you move out (his ovie will know when you do), and his first wave of reinforcements will hit at about the same time you show up. He has a greater economy, defender advantage, fight on spines advantage, pull drones advantage, queen transfuse advantage, and when he holds the attack he is going to take all these advantages and roll you. He won't drone scout either, but unlike your build, his can easily hold what you are throwing, so the late scout isn't such a big deal. His ovie scout at 4 min gives him enough time to respond to what you are doing. Your lack of scouting and consideration of what your opponant is doing seem to be a real flaws in the guide. It's just a blind all-in.

3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time to adjust your plans if it turns out the situation is wrong. The drone scout could be used to harass and be annoying and generally just force the other guy to pay attention to it. The drone can help you spot if they are over or under droning. The drone could also be used in an early speedling pressure; use it to build a proxy spine to support the attack, like a terran bunker rush: push in with a few lings and start the spine, if he has just been droning, with only a few lings, he either needs to pull drones to deal with this which costs him mining or he needs to make units, which will give you some time to catch up. If you don't know what your opponant is up to, all you are really doing is just hoping that the other guy isn't doing A B or C, and I do not think that is a strategy that merits a guide like this.


1) If you send overlords to the correct 2 locations, you'll know based on seeing his overlords or expansion. Then if you don't see overlords, you know he's cross spawn. If for some reason I wasn't sure, I'd build a spine at 23 blindly and cancel once I see he has an expansion.

2) Who goes hatch first into 2 spine 3 queen mass ling? Never seen it. Also, if they did that they definitely couldn't afford to drone as well, so you'd end up ahead in income and there's still a chance the 42speedlings are going to break in or at least kill 2-3 queens and some drones.

3) I disagree, drones are for mining in ZvZ.

You want to proxy spine rush at the 6min mark? This is starting to get a bit ridiculous, please use the build in ZvZ at least once before criticizing it so heatedly.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
April 16 2012 19:55 GMT
#388
On April 17 2012 03:02 1A.Browbeat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what level do you play at?

My concern is that this build doesn't really teach you the fundamentals of playing ZvZ - if I know my opponent is playing this build, I will win every single time.

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.


I'm low masters.



If you're the same Browbeat in my division, you're actually high diamond. (I'm assuming this due to the same name, and same ZvZ strategy according to your match history).

Just a correction, it really has no change on anything, but I would like to add that from my experience the initial mass ling flood is enough to beat low-mid masters. I've only had to transition to the roach push a few times.
Cereal
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 16 2012 20:05 GMT
#389
1) This is still no guarantee of anything. Blindly doing things is just throwing away money. Your timing window is so tight that the effect of throwing away resources is greatly magnified.

2) EGIdra v TSL Symbol. This game is on the front page of sc2casts, from Iron Squid, played on GSL Daybreak.

+ Show Spoiler +
BOTH go hatch first, both go to 3 queens. When Symbol spots that Idra is going to be moving out early he adds a few lings and throws down 2 crawlers which finish at 6:05 and a third which he cancels when he sees Idra is not going all-in. Symbol uses 2 queens to block his ramp and the third in conjunction with spine and ling. Idras build features a 6 min timing push supported with possible early banes (he had the building and gas) and still allows you to transition into whatever you want if you decide to pull back. Symbol, in response to a 6 minute push, was able to go up to 3 queens, still droning and with spines, on two bases, and hold no problem.


3) No, I don't want to proxy spine rush at 6. It would need to be earlier. It's the kind of thing that you could pull off, but only if you scout fast, and really the point is not to debate the merits of proxy spine rushing, it's to show that if you think about it a little bit, there are things you can do with that drone. In z v z its gonna be awhile before your opponant can force you out.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 16 2012 20:08 GMT
#390
On April 17 2012 05:05 rikter wrote:
3) No, I don't want to proxy spine rush at 6. It would need to be earlier. It's the kind of thing that you could pull off, but only if you scout fast, and really the point is not to debate the merits of proxy spine rushing, it's to show that if you think about it a little bit, there are things you can do with that drone. In z v z its gonna be awhile before your opponant can force you out.

What it shows is that you have no experience in ZvZ. Again, I ask you to please at least try the strategy before criticizing it further.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
chadissilent
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-16 20:16:01
April 16 2012 20:12 GMT
#391
This is a pretty blind all-in. Some swedish kid did it to me once on EU, and the next 3 times I played him I absolutely crushed his shitty pushes by poking in with lings and keeping an eye on his drone count. Blind all-ins aren't a way to improve, even if you have a "followup" for them. This is especially the case when your "followup" is another all-in, just with more stuff a little later on in the game. They aren't timing attacks, they're all-in because if your opponent holds somewhat efficiently, you're going to lose against a good player.
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
April 16 2012 20:17 GMT
#392
This is a decent enough build to throw in in a BoX, like all of Tang's all ins are.

This is not a good way to play ZvZ or Zerg in general, don't know why people are attacking it on that aspect.
I love crazymoving
chadissilent
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1187 Posts
April 16 2012 20:20 GMT
#393
On April 17 2012 05:17 Flonomenalz wrote:
This is a decent enough build to throw in in a BoX, like all of Tang's all ins are.

This is not a good way to play ZvZ or Zerg in general, don't know why people are attacking it on that aspect.

Any decent opponent will keep an eye on your drone count and/or army composition. This is why it is being attacked, because it might work great to get you into low-mid masters. Once you start playing people that actually know how to play the game and don't rely on memorized build orders, stuff like this falls apart pretty quickly.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 16 2012 20:36 GMT
#394
I think a good summary of this build is that it is a way to avoid playing the game. You just do your thing, hope it works out, and win or lose you aren't in the game for more than 10min(game time). The player pool, even in masters, is diverse enough that this build will work at least some of time, whether you understand why or not. It certainly isn't my idea of fun.

User was warned for this post
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 16 2012 20:42 GMT
#395
On April 17 2012 05:36 rikter wrote:
I think a good summary of this build is that it is a way to avoid playing the game.

And here's a summary of the good points you've made:

________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________

User was temp banned for this post.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
barrykp
Profile Joined August 2010
Ireland174 Posts
April 16 2012 20:53 GMT
#396
I tried this today, with mixed results, but I have to say the games were fun, and the constant need to micro is probably better for my multitasking than the defensive baneling stuff I was doing before. I think I'll stick to it for a while; ZvZ is by far the most common matchup I'm playing at the moment.

Just by the by I ran the build order through a planner and there seems to be no reason not to 14 pool (instead of 15). Doing everything else the same gave a 1 second (!!!!!) advantage by the 30 supply mark. Just saying :D

Anyway nice guide, and don't mind the haters!
Lecture me some more on how to play please; I need help.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 16 2012 21:23 GMT
#397
barry watch the first 6 minutes of game 1 of EGIdra v. TSL Symbol.
http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage

Both players open with versions of the build that Tang is unfamiliar with; the build I described: hatch first, 3 queens. Your overlord scout should get there by 4 min, and this gives you enough time to add spines, add a few more drones, and finally make some lings as he comes out for the attack at 6min. If the other guy is sitting back, you can make the attack yourself or transition into something else.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
Nasreth
Profile Joined October 2011
United States48 Posts
April 17 2012 19:51 GMT
#398
this has become my standard ZvZ opening in high masters. i really enjoy the ability to pressure your opponent, seize map control, and force him to get defensive. i feel that it puts the game in YOUR hands instead of his, because you know exactly what you're up against and they are more or less in the dark. i don't always do the roach followup - sometimes i take a fast third and get banelings instead, but i've won a great many games before the 10 minute mark with this build.
Why do I play Zerg? Because Kerrigan.
1A.Browbeat
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada26 Posts
April 17 2012 23:40 GMT
#399
On April 17 2012 04:55 InfCereal wrote:
Just a correction, it really has no change on anything, but I would like to add that from my experience the initial mass ling flood is enough to beat low-mid masters. I've only had to transition to the roach push a few times.


he asked what level i play at :p.
...
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
666 Posts
April 18 2012 01:03 GMT
#400
On April 17 2012 06:23 rikter wrote:
barry watch the first 6 minutes of game 1 of EGIdra v. TSL Symbol.
http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage

Both players open with versions of the build that Tang is unfamiliar with; the build I described: hatch first, 3 queens. Your overlord scout should get there by 4 min, and this gives you enough time to add spines, add a few more drones, and finally make some lings as he comes out for the attack at 6min. If the other guy is sitting back, you can make the attack yourself or transition into something else.

If you like that build so much and blatantly hate Tang's, why don't you make a guide on it?
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