EPT[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 20
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Destroyr
Germany299 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 02:25 FairForever wrote: I agree - it's not your responsibility to teach them to play roach/infestor. I was responding to the person above who said he's been using this to win more ZvZ games. Oh I thought you were saying that you've judged this guide based on it's ability to help zerg players improve roach/infestor macro, which I think is unfair since that isn't the purpose. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 02:29 Destroyr wrote: Tang i wonder why you chose to go for 14/14 pool / gas. I believe (but I am only platinum - consider my zvz the best of my matchups) the hatch first is superior to a pool first opening as a pool first sets you behind if your oponent is taking hatch first and going for roach +1/+1 timing. I prefer pool first because it allows me to get speed/queens earlier, the earlier you can start the ling aggression the better. | ||
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1A.Browbeat
Canada26 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote: Just out of curiousity, what level do you play at? My concern is that this build doesn't really teach you the fundamentals of playing ZvZ - if I know my opponent is playing this build, I will win every single time. I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ. I'm low masters. | ||
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HyDrA_solic
Portugal491 Posts
2 points you need to know: 1) Make sure he knows you made the hatch for drones, by sending 2, 3drones there, 2) Hide your attacking lings, This means use only 6 lings to map control first, hide the rest. Then when speed finishes go for it. Another thing that almost always happens. With the 1st queen, send her too the natural, inject there, and search for the overlord and kill it. I can do this 75% of the times. Protect that queen with your first 6lings. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
1) If you are on a map with 4 spawns, and aren't using MLG versions or whatever, then what do you do when your ovie rolls up to an empty natural at 4 minutes because you went the wrong way? 2) At the 6 minute mark, it is no trouble at all for hatch first to have 3 queens, 2 spines, some speedlings and more drones. A third spine could be added as you move out (his ovie will know when you do), and his first wave of reinforcements will hit at about the same time you show up. He has a greater economy, defender advantage, fight on spines advantage, pull drones advantage, queen transfuse advantage, and when he holds the attack he is going to take all these advantages and roll you. He won't drone scout either, but unlike your build, his can easily hold what you are throwing, so the late scout isn't such a big deal. His ovie scout at 4 min gives him enough time to respond to what you are doing. Your lack of scouting and consideration of what your opponant is doing seem to be a real flaws in the guide. It's just a blind all-in. 3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time for him to adjust his plans if it turns out the situation is wrong. The drone scout could be used to harass and be annoying and generally just force the other guy to pay attention to it. The drone can help you spot if they are over or under droning. The drone gives you exact timings. The drone could also be used in an early speedling pressure; use it to build a proxy spine to support the attack, like a terran bunker rush: push in with a few lings and start the spine, if he has just been droning, with only a few lings and a queen with no spine, he either needs to pull drones to deal with this which costs him mining or he needs to make units, which will give you some time to catch up. You can punish him if he gets greedy, but If you don't scout what your opponant is up to, all you are really doing is just going all in and hoping that the other guy isn't doing A B or C, and I do not think that such a strategy merits a guide like this. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 03:27 rikter wrote: I have some more questions about the build Tang. 1) If you are on a map with 4 spawns, and aren't using MLG versions or whatever, then what do you do when your ovie rolls up to an empty natural at 4 minutes because you went the wrong way? 2) At the 6 minute mark, it is no trouble at all for hatch first to have 3 queens, 2 spines, some speedlings and more drones. A third spine could be added as you move out (his ovie will know when you do), and his first wave of reinforcements will hit at about the same time you show up. He has a greater economy, defender advantage, fight on spines advantage, pull drones advantage, queen transfuse advantage, and when he holds the attack he is going to take all these advantages and roll you. He won't drone scout either, but unlike your build, his can easily hold what you are throwing, so the late scout isn't such a big deal. His ovie scout at 4 min gives him enough time to respond to what you are doing. Your lack of scouting and consideration of what your opponant is doing seem to be a real flaws in the guide. It's just a blind all-in. 3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time to adjust your plans if it turns out the situation is wrong. The drone scout could be used to harass and be annoying and generally just force the other guy to pay attention to it. The drone can help you spot if they are over or under droning. The drone could also be used in an early speedling pressure; use it to build a proxy spine to support the attack, like a terran bunker rush: push in with a few lings and start the spine, if he has just been droning, with only a few lings, he either needs to pull drones to deal with this which costs him mining or he needs to make units, which will give you some time to catch up. If you don't know what your opponant is up to, all you are really doing is just hoping that the other guy isn't doing A B or C, and I do not think that is a strategy that merits a guide like this. 1) If you send overlords to the correct 2 locations, you'll know based on seeing his overlords or expansion. Then if you don't see overlords, you know he's cross spawn. If for some reason I wasn't sure, I'd build a spine at 23 blindly and cancel once I see he has an expansion. 2) Who goes hatch first into 2 spine 3 queen mass ling? Never seen it. Also, if they did that they definitely couldn't afford to drone as well, so you'd end up ahead in income and there's still a chance the 42speedlings are going to break in or at least kill 2-3 queens and some drones. 3) I disagree, drones are for mining in ZvZ. You want to proxy spine rush at the 6min mark? This is starting to get a bit ridiculous, please use the build in ZvZ at least once before criticizing it so heatedly. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
If you're the same Browbeat in my division, you're actually high diamond. (I'm assuming this due to the same name, and same ZvZ strategy according to your match history). Just a correction, it really has no change on anything, but I would like to add that from my experience the initial mass ling flood is enough to beat low-mid masters. I've only had to transition to the roach push a few times. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
2) EGIdra v TSL Symbol. This game is on the front page of sc2casts, from Iron Squid, played on GSL Daybreak. + Show Spoiler + BOTH go hatch first, both go to 3 queens. When Symbol spots that Idra is going to be moving out early he adds a few lings and throws down 2 crawlers which finish at 6:05 and a third which he cancels when he sees Idra is not going all-in. Symbol uses 2 queens to block his ramp and the third in conjunction with spine and ling. Idras build features a 6 min timing push supported with possible early banes (he had the building and gas) and still allows you to transition into whatever you want if you decide to pull back. Symbol, in response to a 6 minute push, was able to go up to 3 queens, still droning and with spines, on two bases, and hold no problem. 3) No, I don't want to proxy spine rush at 6. It would need to be earlier. It's the kind of thing that you could pull off, but only if you scout fast, and really the point is not to debate the merits of proxy spine rushing, it's to show that if you think about it a little bit, there are things you can do with that drone. In z v z its gonna be awhile before your opponant can force you out. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 05:05 rikter wrote: 3) No, I don't want to proxy spine rush at 6. It would need to be earlier. It's the kind of thing that you could pull off, but only if you scout fast, and really the point is not to debate the merits of proxy spine rushing, it's to show that if you think about it a little bit, there are things you can do with that drone. In z v z its gonna be awhile before your opponant can force you out. What it shows is that you have no experience in ZvZ. Again, I ask you to please at least try the strategy before criticizing it further. | ||
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chadissilent
Canada1187 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
This is not a good way to play ZvZ or Zerg in general, don't know why people are attacking it on that aspect. | ||
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chadissilent
Canada1187 Posts
On April 17 2012 05:17 Flonomenalz wrote: This is a decent enough build to throw in in a BoX, like all of Tang's all ins are. This is not a good way to play ZvZ or Zerg in general, don't know why people are attacking it on that aspect. Any decent opponent will keep an eye on your drone count and/or army composition. This is why it is being attacked, because it might work great to get you into low-mid masters. Once you start playing people that actually know how to play the game and don't rely on memorized build orders, stuff like this falls apart pretty quickly. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 05:36 rikter wrote: I think a good summary of this build is that it is a way to avoid playing the game. And here's a summary of the good points you've made: ________________________________________ ________________________________________ ________________________________________ User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
Just by the by I ran the build order through a planner and there seems to be no reason not to 14 pool (instead of 15). Doing everything else the same gave a 1 second (!!!!!) advantage by the 30 supply mark. Just saying :D Anyway nice guide, and don't mind the haters! | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage Both players open with versions of the build that Tang is unfamiliar with; the build I described: hatch first, 3 queens. Your overlord scout should get there by 4 min, and this gives you enough time to add spines, add a few more drones, and finally make some lings as he comes out for the attack at 6min. If the other guy is sitting back, you can make the attack yourself or transition into something else. | ||
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Nasreth
United States48 Posts
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1A.Browbeat
Canada26 Posts
On April 17 2012 04:55 InfCereal wrote: Just a correction, it really has no change on anything, but I would like to add that from my experience the initial mass ling flood is enough to beat low-mid masters. I've only had to transition to the roach push a few times. he asked what level i play at :p. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On April 17 2012 06:23 rikter wrote: barry watch the first 6 minutes of game 1 of EGIdra v. TSL Symbol. http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage Both players open with versions of the build that Tang is unfamiliar with; the build I described: hatch first, 3 queens. Your overlord scout should get there by 4 min, and this gives you enough time to add spines, add a few more drones, and finally make some lings as he comes out for the attack at 6min. If the other guy is sitting back, you can make the attack yourself or transition into something else. If you like that build so much and blatantly hate Tang's, why don't you make a guide on it? | ||
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