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[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 18

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2012 19:46 GMT
#341
On April 16 2012 04:33 Fliparoni wrote:
Dont worry, tang. Haters gonna hate. Nothing you can do about that. What you can do something about is just keep on making good guides with good content like you have been lately. Keep up the good work.

Thanks Fliparoni <3
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-15 20:16:53
April 15 2012 20:12 GMT
#342
If you actually read any of my first post, you would see that in fact I am an advocate of learning how to "cheese" as people put it, in order to learn the game. So please, it's not about the subject matter. Here is a quote from my first post, to save you the time of reading it.

"As far as the merits of cheesing go: I personally believe that straight up cheese is the best way to learn the game, as you learn how to control a few units, learn how to kill an opponant, and learn to macro while controlling units. Why build a ton of units on a ton of bases when you can't even properly control a few units on 1 base? Others may disagree, but I think they are wrong."

It's an issue of quality. Why would you try and back up your guide with VODs that were almost a year old in some cases, from different patches? This alone is an indicator of how little went into this guide. Why would you not scout at all until 4 minutes? The scouting is even more critical than usual if you want to hit an early-game timing (this is what we should substitute for "cheese" btw); you may find that your build is not likely to succede, so you can pull back before the point of no return and transition, at the least, into a 2 base all-in. These are important aspects of early aggression. And yet they do not feature in this guide.

If you are a PC and your friend is a Mac, and your friend is going to buy his computer from some sketchball in an alley, would you not say to him, "Hey! Look, I don't care if you buy a Mac, just for the love of God please use a more reputable source."

Others may also be coaches, but I challenge you to find a single person who self-promotes harder than Tang. For all the formatting and proper spelling and grammar, the guides are lacking in content.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-15 20:45:27
April 15 2012 20:23 GMT
#343
On April 16 2012 05:12 rikter wrote:
It's an issue of quality. Why would you try and back up your guide with VODs that were almost a year old in some cases, from different patches? This alone is an indicator of how little went into this guide. Why would you not scout at all until 4 minutes? The scouting is even more critical than usual if you want to hit an early-game timing (this is what we should substitute for "cheese" btw); you may find that your build is not likely to succede, so you can pull back before the point of no return and transition, at the least, into a 2 base all-in. These are important aspects of early aggression. And yet they do not feature in this guide.
For all the formatting and proper spelling and grammar, the guides are lacking in content.

I provide a "References" section as further reading/listening for my guides, which I consider pretty standard practice. I even made four fresh tutorials specifically on the topic of this Zerg vs Zerg build.

In terms of content, I can't please everyone. I write guides to provide knowledge and tactics that I think will help people. If you don't think they're a valuable resource because the content hasn't helped you, then that's unfortunate. You need only read the comments to see that it has helped others, so perhaps your own bias is all that is holding you back from making improvements in your own play.

When I first started making guides, I was passionate about it but I went about it in the wrong way by being overly self-promotional. It was a mistake, but I received advice from the TL community and mods. Thanks to all of your help, I've learned a lot from my previous errors and made some necessary changes.

I look forward to your quality guides on how to play aggressive Zerg properly, Riktor, and I appreciate your compliments about my spelling and grammar.

Self-promotion =/= Bad Person
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 15 2012 20:53 GMT
#344
[B]On April 16 2012 05:23 TangSC wrote:

I made four tutorials specifically on the topic of this Zerg vs Zerg build.

I look forward to your quality guides on how to play aggressive Zerg properly, and I appreciate your compliments about my spelling and grammar.


Classic. You pick and choose what you answer, and try to shift the focus. I don't care about the four tutorials. At some point, when making this guide, you took those particular replays and added them. And I don't see how you could possibly have mistaken them for recent. So, regardless of what else you did, at the very least you half-assed that. Wouldn't recent replays, from the current patch and metagame be more useful to us?

You follow this up with an of ad hominem attack about me writing z v z guides. What does this have to do with anything? This isn't about me writing guides, this is about you writing "guides" and to what end.

My signature is not in response to you, but in these circumstances it is appropriate. Even moreso because you are charging money. If this is the content you charge for, then people need to know they can get much better for free. If your coaching is somehow on a higher level than these guides, then these really are just teaser ads, and/or you are posting information that you know to be inferior. Which is it?


If you like, you can come participate in my hotkey thread "semi-grid layout (terran)", where we talk about hotkeys and no one has any financial interest.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2012 21:02 GMT
#345
On April 16 2012 05:53 rikter wrote:
Show nested quote +
[B]On April 16 2012 05:23 TangSC wrote:

I made four tutorials specifically on the topic of this Zerg vs Zerg build.

I look forward to your quality guides on how to play aggressive Zerg properly, and I appreciate your compliments about my spelling and grammar.


Classic. You pick and choose what you answer, and try to shift the focus. I don't care about the four tutorials. At some point, when making this guide, you took those particular replays and added them. And I don't see how you could possibly have mistaken them for recent. So, regardless of what else you did, at the very least you half-assed that. Wouldn't recent replays, from the current patch and metagame be more useful to us?

You follow this up with an of ad hominem attack about me writing z v z guides. What does this have to do with anything? This isn't about me writing guides, this is about you writing "guides" and to what end.

My signature is not in response to you, but in these circumstances it is appropriate. Even moreso because you are charging money. If this is the content you charge for, then people need to know they can get much better for free. If your coaching is somehow on a higher level than these guides, then these really are just teaser ads, and/or you are posting information that you know to be inferior. Which is it?


If you like, you can come participate in my hotkey thread "semi-grid layout (terran)", where we talk about hotkeys and no one has any financial interest.

As impressed as I am that you know what ad hominem is, I made that argument to establish that you lack the ethos to support your claims. Besides, those particular replays are directly relevant to the game, as are the newer replays from season 6 that I posted. There haven't been major shifts in ZvZ, at least not in relation to the style I'm advocating.

If you want to know whether my coaching is valuable, then who better to ask than those who have actually been coached by me:
http://tangstarcraft.com/?page_id=5
http://www.z33k.com/games/starcraft2/coach/tangsc

I've been an English and Essay Writing tutor for nearly seven years, if there is anything I'm good at, it's teaching. Coaching is individualized for a particular student, I ask new students to fill out surveys so I can design lessons specifically for them. These Team Liquid threads are more broad/general guides that can be applied to most players.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 15 2012 21:34 GMT
#346
On April 16 2012 06:02 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2012 05:53 rikter wrote:
[B]On April 16 2012 05:23 TangSC wrote:

I made four tutorials specifically on the topic of this Zerg vs Zerg build.

I look forward to your quality guides on how to play aggressive Zerg properly, and I appreciate your compliments about my spelling and grammar.


Classic. You pick and choose what you answer, and try to shift the focus. I don't care about the four tutorials. At some point, when making this guide, you took those particular replays and added them. And I don't see how you could possibly have mistaken them for recent. So, regardless of what else you did, at the very least you half-assed that. Wouldn't recent replays, from the current patch and metagame be more useful to us?

You follow this up with an of ad hominem attack about me writing z v z guides. What does this have to do with anything? This isn't about me writing guides, this is about you writing "guides" and to what end.

My signature is not in response to you, but in these circumstances it is appropriate. Even moreso because you are charging money. If this is the content you charge for, then people need to know they can get much better for free. If your coaching is somehow on a higher level than these guides, then these really are just teaser ads, and/or you are posting information that you know to be inferior. Which is it?


If you like, you can come participate in my hotkey thread "semi-grid layout (terran)", where we talk about hotkeys and no one has any financial interest.

As impressed as I am that you know what ad hominem is, I made that argument to establish that you lack the ethos to support your claims. Besides, those particular replays are directly relevant to the game, as are the newer replays from season 6 that I posted. There haven't been major shifts in ZvZ, at least not in relation to the style I'm advocating.

If you want to know whether my coaching is valuable, then who better to ask than those who have actually been coached by me:
http://tangstarcraft.com/?page_id=5
http://www.z33k.com/games/starcraft2/coach/tangsc

I've been an English and Essay Writing tutor for nearly seven years, if there is anything I'm good at, it's teaching. Coaching is individualized for a particular student, I ask new students to fill out surveys so I can design lessons specifically for them. These Team Liquid threads are more broad/general guides that can be applied to most players.


Writing guides and playing games are two different skills, being good at one is no guarantee of the other. Your guides lack in fundamentals; I don't have to be the Shakespeare of ZvZ guides to understand that, just someone with some understanding of the game. There is no reason for you to question my credibility based on my lack of guides. There is no argument there, just an ad hominem attack, a misdirection. The fact that you don't seem to understand why replays from 9 months ago are irrelevant today does not reflect well on your knowledge of the game.

You have conveniently not answered all of my questions. I know that you know how to write because you so carefully pick and choose what you respond to, and even then you respond with a bunch of information that I did not ask for, nor do I care to know. Your responses are designed to cloud the issue and confuse people.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
CP`
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada38 Posts
April 15 2012 21:59 GMT
#347
On April 16 2012 05:12 rikter wrote:
Others may also be coaches, but I challenge you to find a single person who self-promotes harder than Tang.


Why does it matter how hard someone self-promotes? If anything it just shows that he has more dedication to his passion than others.

How about you stop grasping at straws and just stop posting in this thread, considering most of the last posts that aren't you or Tang all agree that you're acting like a fool. It looks rather petty and pathetic that you are singling him out. It doesn't matter what the quality of his coaching or guides are as long as people find value in them and believe that their investment (in the case of paying him to coach them) is worth it.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-15 22:33:27
April 15 2012 22:33 GMT
#348
He cannot generate the clients and traffic he wants on his own merit, he needs the exposure from TL. So he posts these shell guides, which have just enough stuff in them to qualify as content (even if the stuff is of dubious quality) and which provide the leeway he needs to promote as hard as he does. He doesn't post these guides because he wants to, he posts them because he has to; if he didn't post anything at all he would be banned for promoting.

If you think I am grasping at straws, and that my arguments are weak, what could you possibly think of Tang, who is evasive and who simply ignores questions he doesn't want to answer, or answers questions you didn't ask instead of the ones that you did?

Tang isn't being singled out, he stands in a class by himself, because I can't think of a single other person on TL who behaves this way.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
Stog
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1 Post
April 15 2012 22:38 GMT
#349
dont hate! appreciate! thanks tang. your guide is great! i like reading them keep it going!!!
(:
CaptTerrible
Profile Joined July 2010
United States72 Posts
April 15 2012 23:06 GMT
#350
Personally I think the guide is more than enough content for anyone who wants to use it, and combined with the videos you got yourself an excellent starting point. I've been using this build in just about all my ZvZ matches and so far there has only been a couple of zerg players that I felt actually played well against it and won (playing at a low masters level). Most of my losses have come from bad decisions, bad micro or dumb mistakes.

I feel like the only other thing that could be written in this guide is more along the lines of a general ZvZ guide, like handling cheese, late game transitions, what to do when you're behind, but to be completely honest I think that would all be out of the scope for this guide.

Just got to say thanks for the work put into this guide and the others you have posted. Between the 12 Min Max guide, the Roach/Bling all in guide, and the Rushing Relentlessly guide I have made huge amounts of progress in my game :D I'll definitely be keeping an eye for future guides.
Awesome
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 15 2012 23:19 GMT
#351
If he didn't push his coaching so hard, I don't think anyone would begrudge him the guides, regardless of whether its good or bad or whatever. How is it that you miss all the easy questions that he weasles out of answering? I've been playing games for a long time, and associating with people who do the same. Many different games, all at a high level. And no matter what the specific game happened to be, the winners had a lot of things in common. Nothing Tang does or says resonates with me. Nothing about Tang strikes me as being genuine. Personally, I think all these rah-rah Tang fanboys that spring out of the woodwork anytime someone calls him out have failed some kind of life test. It amazes me that you can't spot him for what he is. It's so obvious.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
Fliparoni
Profile Joined February 2012
205 Posts
April 15 2012 23:54 GMT
#352
If he wants to push his coaching then so what? It's called business. In the last 4 or so guides he's written and that I've read, it's been 99% content with just a little link at the very bottom in the end to his website. Personally I don't find it overbearing at all

If nothing Tang does or says resonates with you, then that's totally fine but that is in the end just your own opinion and it doesn't mean you have to go ruin thread's like these for others. Just ignore it and move along with your life and let others who do find the content written by Tang to be useful read it without having to be subjected to this useless hating. The fact that you come here out of of your way to try and convince people that Tang is this or that and bash people who think otherwise makes me think you are in fact the one who has failed some kind of life test.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 16 2012 00:16 GMT
#353
Have you read the rules about self promotion? Tangs relationship with this site is parasitic. Usually when people want to advertise a business they pay for advertising.

I've read the testimonials on your site Tang, what a ridiculous load of garbage. The posts all appear to be written by you, or at least the same person. Just like the posts on this thread from low post acounts. In fact, one of the names on the comments corresponds to yet another low post acount that has popped up to defend you in another thread.

It's true, if you keep responding to me from your main acount your weaseling will become more and more obvious, but really, enough with the puppet acounts.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
Fliparoni
Profile Joined February 2012
205 Posts
April 16 2012 00:44 GMT
#354
Lol, you think I'm a puppet account? This is actually getting hilarious. "Look at me my hate for Tang blinds me and makes me think that people who are defending Tang MUST be sock puppets" ROFL.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 16 2012 02:06 GMT
#355
It isn't blind (unlike Tang I don't go in blind), and it certainly isn't rage. I gave three reasons why I believe that, and here is a 4th: Tang has a documented history of using puppets. Look at the testimonials on his website and tell me they weren't written by the same person. At least one of those testimonials is linked to another low post acount that pops up to defend Tang.

If this guide is his best work, he isn't much of a coach. And if his understanding of the game does go deeper, then why is he knowingly providing inferior information? Just because someone doesn't have high level execution doesn't mean they can't understand or apply high level strategy. A useful guide is one that takes high level strategy and helps make its core concepts accessable to lower ranked players. Tang's guides are dumbed down bullshit justified by saying, essentially, that it doesn't matter because some lower ranked players who had trouble with the matchup and can now win a few games, so who cares?

Tangs worthless guides show just how little he thinks of and believes in you.

But seriously, go to his website, read the student testimonials, and tell me with a straight face you believe they are real, and not all written by the same person.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
discw
Profile Joined April 2010
United States122 Posts
April 16 2012 02:23 GMT
#356
Just wanted to say I'm a big fan of your guides Tang, very useful for someone at my level (between plat/diamond depending on available playtime, without much time to watch tons of streams/vods). Thanks.
DeathScythe
Profile Joined February 2012
United States15 Posts
April 16 2012 02:30 GMT
#357
Sorry to interject, this is my first post, but i have been reading TL forums for almost 2 years now.

I used to be a horrible silver zerg player. After reading tangs guides I went from silver to top 3 plat in 3 weeks.

Tang is a very down to earth person who just enjoys teaching (he even responded when i thanked him in SC2 for posting in TL)

I welcome any player who is willing to post useful content that helps players get better. No offense but 90% of post here are either bad info or QQ threads. I really appreciate users like tang and such. So again thank you tang, good or bad you trying to help the community. I do not see a problem with you posting a link to your website, because this is the top 1% of useful information on this forum.

I find the insults here extremely didactic and slightly hypocritical. If anyone has any questions about tangs strats feel free to message me in game BlackDragon #140

Thank you for reading.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 16 2012 03:17 GMT
#358
I am glad you find my insults morally instructive. I think you accidentally searched for an antonym in the thesaurus, instead of a synonym. Unless of course you intend for me to be insulted by having my writing described as morally instructive. As far as being a hypocrit, you would need some evidence that I engage in the same conduct I am accusing Tang of, and of course there is no such evidence, so I am not sure what you mean by that.

I am sorry to hear that you think this guide represents the top 1% that TL has to offer; there's a whole wide world of good stuff out there.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
DeathScythe
Profile Joined February 2012
United States15 Posts
April 16 2012 03:52 GMT
#359
Personal attack aside, i do think your preaching, and i don't care to read your negative comments, if you don't like the guide don't read it. Quit attacking people, honestly no one really cares, i just got so tired of reading your BM i decided to make my first post. Thank you.
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 16 2012 04:00 GMT
#360
That wasn't a personal attack. Its hard to really respond to someone when they write inaccurately. In fact, you were the one making the personal attack. You write just like Tang. You shift the focus and don't address the questions.

No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
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