EPTYes, he plays hyper-aggressive, all-in styles. If you don't want to play that style, don't open the thread. But he's high master or grandmaster level, so I think he understands the ins and outs of this playstyle, and is very qualified for writing guides for it.
[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 19
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ClysmiC
United States2192 Posts
Yes, he plays hyper-aggressive, all-in styles. If you don't want to play that style, don't open the thread. But he's high master or grandmaster level, so I think he understands the ins and outs of this playstyle, and is very qualified for writing guides for it. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 16 2012 13:05 ClysmiC wrote: Why do all of Tang's guides devolve into flame wars. Yes, he plays hyper-aggressive, all-in styles. If you don't want to play that style, don't open the thread. But he's high master or grandmaster level, so I think he understands the ins and outs of this playstyle, and is very qualified for writing guides for it. I think Tang gets a lot of hate because he constantly overestimates his skill (calling himself GM-level, I don't think he's ever been in GM except in the ladder error in Season 4 which got corrected quickly and he got kicked out). Also because this build isn't innovative by any means - it's simply massing lings and going for the kill. Second reason is because he doesn't really help anyone learn. He doesn't talk about scouting (which is super important), and his "reactions" to opposing builds are terrible. He talks about beating 1-base roaches, but how is he going to scout that easily? What if it ends up being a roach/baneling attack? He doesn't talk about tells to look for that. He talks about responding to early pools, but in my opinion his advice is terrible - I honestly think I played someone today who listened to his advice (high masters) who build a spine after 9pool... he just gave up his economic advantage (in fact I was ahead afterwards even only killing one drone). Last thing is he really doesn't talk about how to transition out of this build. I had two ZvZs today - I didn't check exact BOs but both looked like his build (earlier than 21 hatch after pool into eventual ling all-in). Because I've read this thread it's extremely easy to scout, and once you know how to hold it it's extremely easy as well, because of defender's advantage. I've held it with both pure lings as well as ling/roach defenses. I think the premise has promise but Tang's explanation is just simply very weak. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
This is not about cheese v macro. That is his goto line when called out. He tries to distract and misrepresent the issue, with the intention of starting a flame war, because once you start screaming and stop hammering the issue, everyone forgets what it was all about in the first place, and any good points are invalidated by the frenzied ranting. Do you really think this guide is evidence of high master or grandmaster level skill? It does not seem to be an informed product. I appreciate your post fairforever. I don't play as zerg, so I can't point out all the exact, specific flaws as eloquently as you. | ||
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sertman
United States540 Posts
On April 16 2012 13:33 rikter wrote: If you would read my first post, you would see that my problem is not that this is an all in guide, its that it is a shitty all in guide that is serving as an advertisement for his coaching services. I advocate an all-in style as a means to learn the game! This is not about cheese v macro. That is his goto line when called out. He tries to distract and misrepresent the issue, with the intention of starting a flame war, because once you start screaming and stop hammering the issue, everyone forgets what it was all about in the first place, and any good points are invalidated by the frenzied ranting. Do you really think this guide is evidence of high master or grandmaster level skill? It does not seem to be an informed product. I appreciate your post fairforever. I don't play as zerg, so I can't point out all the exact, specific flaws as eloquently as you. if you don't play zerg what qualifies you to say anything about this guide.... | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
And the things I have specifically questioned, such as how you can claim this to be a legit guide without any scouting info, or how you can claim to be putting effort in when the attached vods are 9 months old and obsolete, don't require any special knowledge of zerg, just of the game in general. In classic Tang style you ignore fairforever, who very succinctly points out a whole host of things that are lacking, many of which stem from no scouting. Does me not playing zerg somehow make what fairforever said not relavant? | ||
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sertman
United States540 Posts
On April 16 2012 14:25 rikter wrote: Because I play against zerg, because I have played zerg in the past, because I spend a considerable amount of time watching vods and replays of high level play. Because some aspects of the game are fundamental to all races. Are you serious with this? Really? And the things I have specifically questioned, such as how you can claim this to be a legit guide without any scouting info, or how you can claim to be putting effort in when the attached vods are 9 months old and obsolete, don't require any special knowledge of zerg, just of the game in general. In classic Tang style you ignore fairforever, who very succinctly points out a whole host of things that are lacking, many of which stem from no scouting. Does me not playing zerg somehow make what fairforever said not relavant? it just makes me wonder what on earth you're doing arguing so emphatically about a ZvZ guide when you yourself don't play Z. i could refute what fairforever said all day but he'd be writing the response, not you, so why are you here? | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
Just because I don't play as zerg doesn't mean I don't watch the games or have an interest in learning more so I can play better against them. I play Terran, I am a fan of sc2 in general. Again, none of this is really relevant. More ad hominem attacks, more misdirection, more not answering questions. The two specific issues I brought up, regarding old vods and the lack of scouting, have also been echoed by other posters. Furthermore, you don't have to be some super gosu zerg to understand no scout til 4 min is bad, no matter the race, and that 9 month old vods are completely irrelevant due to patching and evolution of play. Tang himself has not actually answered either question, if you read the posts you would see this. Id love for you to please pick, either the scouting issue, or the old vods, and explain what my not playing zerg has to do with my ability to assess that either A) this retarded blind all-in doesn't have enough scouting or B) the fact that 9 month old vods are not useful learning tools. I know there's been a lot of user names, but it sure seems like this has just been a conversation with one person. | ||
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discw
United States122 Posts
On April 16 2012 13:05 ClysmiC wrote: Why do all of Tang's guides devolve into flame wars. Yes, he plays hyper-aggressive, all-in styles. If you don't want to play that style, don't open the thread. But he's high master or grandmaster level, so I think he understands the ins and outs of this playstyle, and is very qualified for writing guides for it. Well, every other post the last 3 pages has been one guy, so I dunno if that counts as a flame war. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 16 2012 13:25 FairForever wrote: I think Tang gets a lot of hate because he constantly overestimates his skill (calling himself GM-level, I don't think he's ever been in GM except in the ladder error in Season 4 which got corrected quickly and he got kicked out). Also because this build isn't innovative by any means - it's simply massing lings and going for the kill. Second reason is because he doesn't really help anyone learn. He doesn't talk about scouting (which is super important), and his "reactions" to opposing builds are terrible. He talks about beating 1-base roaches, but how is he going to scout that easily? What if it ends up being a roach/baneling attack? He doesn't talk about tells to look for that. He talks about responding to early pools, but in my opinion his advice is terrible - I honestly think I played someone today who listened to his advice (high masters) who build a spine after 9pool... he just gave up his economic advantage (in fact I was ahead afterwards even only killing one drone). Last thing is he really doesn't talk about how to transition out of this build. I had two ZvZs today - I didn't check exact BOs but both looked like his build (earlier than 21 hatch after pool into eventual ling all-in). Because I've read this thread it's extremely easy to scout, and once you know how to hold it it's extremely easy as well, because of defender's advantage. I've held it with both pure lings as well as ling/roach defenses. First, I am confident in my abilities as a player but I'm certainly aware of my limitations. My accomplishments are making GM seasons 2 and 4 on NA server and being consistently ranked in top master. Granted, that's not an indication of pro-level status but I don't claim to be a highly competitive tournament player, I'd get crushed in a BO7 against any of the top NA, EU, or KR players. This build is not about simply massing lings; that's just phase 1! It's about using timings attacks to secure an advantage so that you can attack again, which differs from the usual style of using a timing attack to secure an advantage in a macro game. Second, I don't know what additional scouting you're expecting me to talk about in ZvZ. I do not drone scout in the matchup, I use my overlord to scout the expansion by the 4 minute mark - if he hasn't expanded by then, it's likely a 1base all-in. This style of opening (mass zergling) blind counters any 1base all-in except the 1base baneling or early spine/ling all-ins, which I detail correct responses in the stream tutorial video 4. You don't have to do anything other than overlord scout before the 5:30 mark, at which point you're being aggressive with speedlings which will give you all the information you need. In terms of the games you played against opponents who made stylistic errors, you can't honestly say it's my fault that random players on the ladder have made mistakes against you in 1v1. Finally, I do talk about transitions - this is not a zergling all-in like you say, it's a zergling timing followed up with a roach/ling timing attack, which is a style I enjoy using in ZvZ and has led to it being my best win% matchup. At the very least, this is a viable option that appeals to some players. It's also a great start for someone who is struggling in ZvZ and has no real plan. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 16 2012 15:17 rikter wrote: You actually can't refute what fairforever said, though I would be interested in reading it. Just because I don't play as zerg doesn't mean I don't watch the games or have an interest in learning more so I can play better against them. I play Terran, I am a fan of sc2 in general. Again, none of this is really relevant. More ad hominem attacks, more misdirection, more not answering questions. The two specific issues I brought up, regarding old vods and the lack of scouting, have also been echoed by other posters. Furthermore, you don't have to be some super gosu zerg to understand no scout til 4 min is bad, no matter the race, and that 9 month old vods are completely irrelevant due to patching and evolution of play. Tang himself has not actually answered either question, if you read the posts you would see this. Id love for you to please pick, either the scouting issue, or the old vods, and explain what my not playing zerg has to do with my ability to assess that either A) this retarded blind all-in doesn't have enough scouting or B) the fact that 9 month old vods are not useful learning tools. I know there's been a lot of user names, but it sure seems like this has just been a conversation with one person. "Tang himself has not actually answered either question" Jesus, I was sleeping! Here is the answer to the first question you've asked about "Old Vods": What specifically are you talking about? There are no old vods in this guide. There are old replays from seasons 3/4, as well as newer replays from seasons 5/6. All of replays are relevant, you'll see my opponents open with the Speedlings, Ling/Baneling, Roach Expands, and 1Base All-ins. I don't think the patches have really affected ZvZ significantly, most of the meta-game shifts have been in mid/late game which aren't relevant to the style I'm advocating. The only guides that features older vods are my ZvT guides that on roach/ling aggression, which I included old vods of how to manage the roach/ling army. Pretty important information, hasn't changed in over time. Here is the answer to your second question about not scouting until 4minutes: There's no other way to put this except to say that your opinion that you have to scout before 4min in ZvZ is incorrect. I'm not trying to offend you, after all you're a terran player so there's no real way you would know, but you do not have to drone scout in ZvZ unless you hatch-first or you're going for a spine/ling all-in. The most valuable piece of information will be your opponent's expansion (or lack of expansion) by the 4minute mark. The opening of this build will function the same against any 2base opening. This is not a "Blind all-in", it's an aggressive opening. I encourage players to experiment with turning it into an all-in by continuing to stream lings if they do significant damage, but I also encourage droning/transitioning with map control (something I stress in the introduction of this guide.) That's why numerous players have responded in this guide saying they've altered the transitions/opening style to suit their more macro-oriented style. Deltrus even wrote a guide on how he uses the ling opening and transitions differently: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325488 I never wrote this guide to be a definitive be all, end all to Zerg vs Zerg. It's just a reference, and players can choose whether they want to incorporate it into their repertoires. Thank you for posting these questions though, perhaps I didn't explain it well enough in the OP. I'd also like to thank others for their constructive comments <3 | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 16 2012 11:06 rikter wrote: But seriously, go to his website, read the student testimonials, and tell me with a straight face you believe they are real, and not all written by the same person. That's just blatantly untrue, they are all student-written and they even leave their character codes and account names so you can message them. On April 16 2012 13:33 rikter wrote: If you would read my first post, you would see that my problem is not that this is an all in guide, its that it is a shitty all in guide that is serving as an advertisement for his coaching services. To be honest, I think you're the only one who has even mentioned my coaching. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 16 2012 23:21 TangSC wrote: First, I am confident in my abilities as a player but I'm certainly aware of my limitations. My accomplishments are making GM seasons 2 and 4 on NA server and being consistently ranked in top master. Granted, that's not an indication of pro-level status but I don't claim to be a highly competitive tournament player, I'd get crushed in a BO7 against any of the top NA, EU, or KR players. This build is not about simply massing lings; that's just phase 1! It's about using timings attacks to secure an advantage so that you can attack again, which differs from the usual style of using a timing attack to secure an advantage in a macro game. Second, I don't know what additional scouting you're expecting me to talk about in ZvZ. I do not drone scout in the matchup, I use my overlord to scout the expansion by the 4 minute mark - if he hasn't expanded by then, it's likely a 1base all-in. This style of opening (mass zergling) blind counters any 1base all-in except the 1base baneling or early spine/ling all-ins, which I detail correct responses in the stream tutorial video 4. You don't have to do anything other than overlord scout before the 5:30 mark, at which point you're being aggressive with speedlings which will give you all the information you need. In terms of the games you played against opponents who made stylistic errors, you can't honestly say it's my fault that random players on the ladder have made mistakes against you in 1v1. Finally, I do talk about transitions - this is not a zergling all-in like you say, it's a zergling timing followed up with a roach/ling timing attack, which is a style I enjoy using in ZvZ and has led to it being my best win% matchup. At the very least, this is a viable option that appeals to some players. It's also a great start for someone who is struggling in ZvZ and has no real plan. I think you accurately describe your skill now, so fair enough. I'll take that back. I do remember you getting kicked out of GM in Season 4 though in both your accounts. I do consider this an all-in. 42 zerglings = 21 drones (of course in a ZvZ you're almost never gonna make the 21 drones, but the point holds). I think you could do a lot better in a couple of areas to improve this guide, which I hope you do do because this build is very effective all the way up to masters (though it loses effectiveness significantly as you get higher up). Note I've only watched a minute or so of each guide, simply because I'm not too interested in the build myself nor do I have the time. I based it mostly on what I've read. 1) How to play if your Roach/ling all-in or your ling all-in gets held off. In this case you're pretty far behind but of course it's not a 100% loss. What would you follow up with? If there's no follow-up then I don't know how you can call it an all-in. You do have a follow-up, which is essentially a roach all-in (since lair tech is "optional"). Are there any ways to transition this to a normal game? If I was facing you and I saw this guide, after seeing the first attack I'd just prepare for another all-in since there seems to be no other option. 2) Some of this guide is way too simplistic: eg. "let the roaches absorb the banes then bring the zerglings in" - well, no good player is simply going to bring the banes to your roaches, he'll keep the banes behind a spine defense or behind roaches or other units such that they won't be hit by your roaches, and will only be brought forward if you attempt to use your lings to engage. I don't think micro is necessarily a must in this guide because you can't really teach micro from a guide. 3) I think you need to be honest with what would beat this build easily - no build is that strong. Things like 15 hatch will give the other player a noticeable advantage over someone using this build. There's nothing wrong with a ZvZ build having a weakness - EVERY opening in ZvZ has issues. But choosing not to address them isn't helpful. How should you react? | ||
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1A.Browbeat
Canada26 Posts
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:20 1A.Browbeat wrote: My ZvZ has definitely improved using this opening. I don't use the roach transition and other aspects, but the initial ling flood and timing of the queen seem to work pretty well against almost any build. Also, it is tough for zerg to know this is what you are going to do even if he is scouting in your base. A lot of ZvZ consists of trying to secure an advantage so you can simply outproduce your opponent. getting the two early queens and the speed means that if they have gone for banes/ too many spines/ late 2nd queen, they will have a tough time keeping up with your production and so you've arrived at that point where you can outproduce them right at the start. Just out of curiousity, what level do you play at? My concern is that this build doesn't really teach you the fundamentals of playing ZvZ - if I know my opponent is playing this build, I will win every single time. I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:16 FairForever wrote: I think you accurately describe your skill now, so fair enough. I'll take that back. I do remember you getting kicked out of GM in Season 4 though in both your accounts. I do consider this an all-in. 42 zerglings = 21 drones (of course in a ZvZ you're almost never gonna make the 21 drones, but the point holds). I think you could do a lot better in a couple of areas to improve this guide, which I hope you do do because this build is very effective all the way up to masters (though it loses effectiveness significantly as you get higher up). Note I've only watched a minute or so of each guide, simply because I'm not too interested in the build myself nor do I have the time. I based it mostly on what I've read. 1) How to play if your Roach/ling all-in or your ling all-in gets held off. In this case you're pretty far behind but of course it's not a 100% loss. What would you follow up with? If there's no follow-up then I don't know how you can call it an all-in. You do have a follow-up, which is essentially a roach all-in (since lair tech is "optional"). Are there any ways to transition this to a normal game? If I was facing you and I saw this guide, after seeing the first attack I'd just prepare for another all-in since there seems to be no other option. 2) Some of this guide is way too simplistic: eg. "let the roaches absorb the banes then bring the zerglings in" - well, no good player is simply going to bring the banes to your roaches, he'll keep the banes behind a spine defense or behind roaches or other units such that they won't be hit by your roaches, and will only be brought forward if you attempt to use your lings to engage. I don't think micro is necessarily a must in this guide because you can't really teach micro from a guide. 3) I think you need to be honest with what would beat this build easily - no build is that strong. Things like 15 hatch will give the other player a noticeable advantage over someone using this build. There's nothing wrong with a ZvZ build having a weakness - EVERY opening in ZvZ has issues. But choosing not to address them isn't helpful. How should you react? Season 4 had a reset of Grand Master (And blizzard didn't tell anyone, they just randomly reset the ladder) so I was removed and wasn't informed and given a chance to get back into GM. That's actually where the "20$ if you leave the game" joke that was posted on Reddit came from, after the reset. You say this build loses effectiveness the higher you go up - tell that to Sheth, Idra, col.ryze, and stephano! The build relies on your mechanics and experience. The main emphasis is on the first two timing attacks, which are VERY difficult to stop if executed optimally, even if your opponent knows it is coming. I've successfully used repeated the build in ladder against the same opponent, and in BO3 and BO5 formats. I do have a section of the guide on one possible transition out of the roach/ling: getting full 2-base mineral saturation with a macro hatch, an evo, and 1-2 gas to go for a HUGE roach/ling timing (It's desperation mode, but I have won games with it). I skim over macro transitions, like moving into mutas or standard roach/infestor macro, but looking at the title of the guide it's not really the focus. You're right that I didn't go too deep into analyzing the micro, but what I said about handling the roach/ling is true - when you're going in with 8 roach mass ling, you keep the roaches in front until you kill the banelings then you a-move the lings. Analyzing the replays/stream VODs would be a better way to understand the micro-mechanics. Finally, I am being honest when I say I don't think this build straight-up loses to anything. It's all about decision making, micro, and multitasking. Even if they blind counter with a large baneling/ling defense and counter-attack right away, you can still win with pure-ling by counter attacking, engaging in favorable ling on ling battles, and microing well to pick off banelings. Then, if they mass spine/ling/bane to defend your roach/ling transition, you can still hit them with a much larger roach/ling (with macro hatch and upgrades) for a chance to overwhelm before mutas/infestors are out. The biggest issue I've had are dealing with the 1base baneling all-in, which is why I made the stream video analyzing the correct response. And defensive baneling players who micro well and make the necessary lings are difficult to beat, and you could end up behind if you make a mistake, but the roach/ling timing performs extremely well at either equalizing the economies or outright winning. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote: I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ. I say it over and over, SC2 has too much variety to claim that any matchup revolves around specific fundamentals. Upgraded roach/infestor mid-games with a max hydra/roach/infestor late game is very common in ZvZ, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to play. There are various 1-base timings like Ling/baneling, 2 base timings like roach/ling/baneling all-ins, and even tech-oriented play like fast mutalisk. Furthermore, many players execute timing attacks and then transition into standard play (In fact Stephano opens with a Ling style very similar to this one then transitions into double evo roach/infestor). The widespread belief on the NA server is that cheese/all-in is bad manner. People get upset when they lose to all-in timings, and they assume players who do these types of builds can't play a longer game. What many fail to acknowledge is that a timing attack can just be a way to win the game, or a way to secure an advantage/momentum while transitioning. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:41 TangSC wrote: I say it over and over, SC2 has too much variety to claim that any matchup revolves around specific fundamentals. Upgraded roach/infestor mid-games with a max hydra/roach/infestor late game is very common in ZvZ, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to play. There are various 1-base timings like Ling/baneling, 2 base timings like roach/ling/baneling all-ins, and even tech-oriented play like fast mutalisk. Furthermore, many players execute timing attacks and then transition into standard play (In fact Stephano opens with a Ling style very similar to this one then transitions into double evo roach/infestor). The widespread belief on the NA server is that cheese/all-in is bad manner. People get upset when they lose to all-in timings, and they assume players who do these types of builds can't play a longer game. What many fail to acknowledge is that a timing attack can just be a way to win the game, or a way to secure an advantage/momentum while transitioning. Of course it's not the only way to play, but every Zerg should know how to play it. Because after the all-in phase, most games go into roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor. It's the same reason why one shouldn't simply 3rax all-in every game. You can perfect the technique and get into high masters, but you haven't developed a well-rounded skill set. The problem with this opening is it doesn't seem to have a proper transition into roach/infestor. Sure you get roaches but you're not getting a lair so it's another all-in. It's not a problem per se, it's an issue that players who use it aren't playing standard and aren't developing proper macro techniques that are essential in most ZvZs. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:33 TangSC wrote: Season 4 had a reset of Grand Master (And blizzard didn't tell anyone, they just randomly reset the ladder) so I was removed and wasn't informed and given a chance to get back into GM. That's actually where the "20$ if you leave the game" joke that was posted on Reddit came from, after the reset. You say this build loses effectiveness the higher you go up - tell that to Sheth, Idra, col.ryze, and stephano! The build relies on your mechanics and experience. The main emphasis is on the first two timing attacks, which are VERY difficult to stop if executed optimally, even if your opponent knows it is coming. I've successfully used repeated the build in ladder against the same opponent, and in BO3 and BO5 formats. I do have a section of the guide on one possible transition out of the roach/ling: getting full 2-base mineral saturation with a macro hatch, an evo, and 1-2 gas to go for a HUGE roach/ling timing (It's desperation mode, but I have won games with it). I skim over macro transitions, like moving into mutas or standard roach/infestor macro, but looking at the title of the guide it's not really the focus. You're right that I didn't go too deep into analyzing the micro, but what I said about handling the roach/ling is true - when you're going in with 8 roach mass ling, you keep the roaches in front until you kill the banelings then you a-move the lings. Analyzing the replays/stream VODs would be a better way to understand the micro-mechanics. Finally, I am being honest when I say I don't think this build straight-up loses to anything. It's all about decision making, micro, and multitasking. Even if they blind counter with a large baneling/ling defense and counter-attack right away, you can still win with pure-ling by counter attacking, engaging in favorable ling on ling battles, and microing well to pick off banelings. Then, if they mass spine/ling/bane to defend your roach/ling transition, you can still hit them with a much larger roach/ling (with macro hatch and upgrades) for a chance to overwhelm before mutas/infestors are out. The biggest issue I've had are dealing with the 1base baneling all-in, which is why I made the stream video analyzing the correct response. And defensive baneling players who micro well and make the necessary lings are difficult to beat, and you could end up behind if you make a mistake, but the roach/ling timing performs extremely well at either equalizing the economies or outright winning. It was reset because the wrong people were on the ladder, it wasn't random. There were people in low masters getting into GM, and the #1 player in GM on the previous season didn't get in (ostojiy) originally. Also those who were in GM and supposed to be in GM weren't kicked out. Yes the build doesn't straight up lose to anything (neither does 14/14). But it's starting at a disadvantage against some openings, which is fine. But you don't detail which openings and how to react to even the game up, which is not okay. I don't need you to tell me (we're at about the same MMR I believe), but you should detail to your audience what to do. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:43 FairForever wrote: The problem with this opening is it doesn't seem to have a proper transition into roach/infestor. Sure you get roaches but you're not getting a lair so it's another all-in. It's not a problem per se, it's an issue that players who use it aren't playing standard and aren't developing proper macro techniques that are essential in most ZvZs. This isn't a guide to playing roach/infestor, it's not a guide to standard macro. If players want to play a straight-up roach/infestor macro game, that's fine - it's not what I'm analyzing here. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 17 2012 01:57 TangSC wrote: This isn't a guide to playing roach/infestor, it's not a guide to standard macro. If players want to play a straight-up roach/infestor macro game, that's fine - it's not what I'm analyzing here. I agree - it's not your responsibility to teach them to play roach/infestor. I was responding to the person above who said he's been using this to win more ZvZ games. | ||
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