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[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Prev 1 2 3 4 5 22 23 24 Next All
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
February 08 2012 23:53 GMT
#21
On February 09 2012 08:51 lindn wrote:
Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.

Standard stuff as usual.

In theory, you can transition after the first ling push - or the roach ling for the matter - into whichever macro style you like. It's my personal preference to continue attacking, but that's just my play style. I'm sure there will be players who prefer to transition into standard play.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 00:02:51
February 08 2012 23:59 GMT
#22
Edited the OP to mention that if you want, you can just use the opening and cut zerglings at 31 supply to transition into whatever macro build you want. You don't have to go for the 42 Zergling timing attack or the followup roach/ling timing attack - BUT I strongly recommend it!
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
NoisyNinja
Profile Joined February 2011
United States991 Posts
February 09 2012 00:07 GMT
#23
Voted 5. I hate ZvZ because it is a diceroll and it is such a simple concept of forcing your opponent to make units while droning up and staying alive yourself.
Br3ezy
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States720 Posts
February 09 2012 00:08 GMT
#24
On February 09 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

That's a bit of a silly comment, considering the replays are all against top-notch master/GM players. This is not a build that can easily be stopped, assuming your execution is solid.

never heard of like any of the players in the replays. Also by top-notch, do you mean top tier or just respectable players because theres a big difference between the two
Check out my guide to mechanics http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319876
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 00:12:23
February 09 2012 00:11 GMT
#25
On February 09 2012 09:08 Br3ezy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:
On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

That's a bit of a silly comment, considering the replays are all against top-notch master/GM players. This is not a build that can easily be stopped, assuming your execution is solid.

never heard of like any of the players in the replays. Also by top-notch, do you mean top tier or just respectable players because theres a big difference between the two

Raine, ZelNiq, bellini, ppgbubbles, goswer and DarkChigo are very competitive players. Almost all of those replays are against top-8 masters to GM. I've also beat Sheth, Idra, and Catz with this style. Stephano and Strifecro are the only two I can think of who shut me down game after game in ZvZ.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
robaq
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland186 Posts
February 09 2012 00:13 GMT
#26
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:

Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.

And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.

I think it is because its the most simple way to understand the game. If you lose and do not have the optimal number of workers you'd lose because you had not enough workers. Of course, the game could be won by better decision making and engagements, but the first thing coming my mind would be always "I just had not enough stuff".
Omg BW is back | DB: dotabuff.com/players/83694874 | MAL: myanimelist.net/animelist/robaq
Depetrify
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
978 Posts
February 09 2012 00:17 GMT
#27
On February 09 2012 08:53 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 08:51 lindn wrote:
Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.

Standard stuff as usual.

In theory, you can transition after the first ling push - or the roach ling for the matter - into whichever macro style you like. It's my personal preference to continue attacking, but that's just my play style. I'm sure there will be players who prefer to transition into standard play.


Take into account the travel distance and they can have more drones while being safe. gg
aidip
Profile Joined October 2011
United States5 Posts
February 09 2012 00:19 GMT
#28
Love the aggression! no such thing as all in for ZvZ!
Never attack front on...
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 00:28:56
February 09 2012 00:20 GMT
#29
On February 09 2012 09:17 Depetrify wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 08:53 TangSC wrote:
On February 09 2012 08:51 lindn wrote:
Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.

Standard stuff as usual.

In theory, you can transition after the first ling push - or the roach ling for the matter - into whichever macro style you like. It's my personal preference to continue attacking, but that's just my play style. I'm sure there will be players who prefer to transition into standard play.


Take into account the travel distance and they can have more drones while being safe. gg

Sure, if you want to over-simplify things and focus only on the negative lol you could also say you're guaranteed to gain map control, do damage, and potentially even end the game. I mean sure there's always the chance you'll mess up and run a ling into a bunch of banelings and end up a bit behind, but for the most part there are a lot of advantages to having zerglings out on the field early, especially because you're SO safe to all-ins. Also, what I like most about the admittedly low-econ transition in the guide is that if you're planning to go for a roach/ling attack later, those extra lings you built aren't just dead money, they're part of your timing attack.

I think if you tried it a couple times, you'd find you can do anything you want after the opening pressure - and you might like the advantages of an aggressive opening more than you'd think, even if your goal is to go muta or upgraded roaches after.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 00:28:52
February 09 2012 00:26 GMT
#30
what do you do against a player defending with banes? i assume stay passive and tech/expand? send small groups to take down banes first?

i've faced mass ling while i try to tech to roach it has caused me to prepare with bane/spine at choke in case of mass ling flooding in.

for me, it seems mass ling has its timing but it becomes very less potent when the opponent is ready to reflect any ling attack with a hand full of banes waiting behind crawlers. (it wont take care of all lings but enough for newly hatched units/reinforcement to clean up)

excuse my ignorance, i'm just speaking from my limited experience.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
Korpseflower
Profile Joined November 2010
United States12 Posts
February 09 2012 00:30 GMT
#31
As a high master zerg from NA I can assure anyone reading this, that this strategy is by all means, all in. 42 speedlings that early on? I would simply make 6 banelings, and some lings while keeping my HUGE drone advantage. From there, tech to roach with my superior economy or make a couple spines and transition to muta. If you want to learn how to play the matchup this is one way NOT to learn.
Luck and Hope is an idiot's mother, but what kind of mother would leave her child behind? <3
Depetrify
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
978 Posts
February 09 2012 00:31 GMT
#32
On February 09 2012 09:20 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 09:17 Depetrify wrote:
On February 09 2012 08:53 TangSC wrote:
On February 09 2012 08:51 lindn wrote:
Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.

Standard stuff as usual.

In theory, you can transition after the first ling push - or the roach ling for the matter - into whichever macro style you like. It's my personal preference to continue attacking, but that's just my play style. I'm sure there will be players who prefer to transition into standard play.


Take into account the travel distance and they can have more drones while being safe. gg

Sure, if you want to over-simplify things and focus only on the negative lol you could also say you're guaranteed to gain map control, do damage, and potentially even end the game. I mean sure there's always the chance you'll mess up and run a ling into a bunch of banelings and end up a bit behind, but for the most part there are a lot of advantages to having zerglings out on the field early, especially because you're SO safe to all-ins. Also, what I like most about the admittedly low-econ transition in the guide is that if you're planning to go for a roach/ling attack later, those extra lings you built aren't just dead money, they're part of your timing attack.

I think if you tried it a couple times, you'd find you can do anything you want after the opening pressure - and you might like the advantages of an aggressive opening more than you'd think, even if your goal is to go muta or upgraded roaches after.


Lol. You really don't understand ZvZ. Its all about how many drones you can get while living. The person defending will have a few more, THEN HE CAN TURN THE AGGRESSION BACK AT YOU WITH BETTER ECONOMY.

You're expecting them just to never attack? While you take risks and mass drone?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
February 09 2012 00:37 GMT
#33
On February 09 2012 09:30 Korpseflower wrote:
As a high master zerg from NA I can assure anyone reading this, that this strategy is by all means, all in. 42 speedlings that early on? I would simply make 6 banelings, and some lings while keeping my HUGE drone advantage. From there, tech to roach with my superior economy or make a couple spines and transition to muta. If you want to learn how to play the matchup this is one way NOT to learn.

Banelings are obviously great against zerglings, but you strongly underestimate good zergling micro and this style as a whole. Don't judge until you've faced it please, it's not as easy as "build 6 banelings and win." Watch the stream videos, there are games against players who open 6 banelings and other defensive styles.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Majromax
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada14 Posts
February 09 2012 00:41 GMT
#34
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:

Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.

And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.


Because that's the way Zerg has to play. *rimshot*

I'm actually serious here. Zerg is weird in that its unit production is in direct opposition to drone production. A unit now means that is one less drone now, which means fewer minerals for later. More so than any other race, having more units later means building drones now. There's no consolation for prize for having the biggest army that still dies to a push; the only good reason (for any race) to sit at <50 workers is because the minerals need to be spent in order to not die now.

The same kind of thinking applies to larva at hatcheries. A larva sitting there is one that isn't turning into a drone or unit; it's the Zerg equivalent of an empty production queue.

Your middle path -- mixing drones and units -- has been tried by pretty much every silver-league Zerg ever. It's a great way to live to the midgame, then promptly die due to a lack of stuff.
NL.Anonymous
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Netherlands50 Posts
February 09 2012 00:43 GMT
#35
Hey there TangSC
First of all props for putting time into making a build to let people try other things. Despite all the negative comments you are getting, you are just enriching the community with another style of gameplay we can try out again.

I don't think I have the right or the knowledge yet to speak if this would work, since I didn't try it out yet. I do think when executed well this build will really work. And for the people that are like: make banes insta win... You should watch some Korea GM people playing. Micro is the word.

Thanks alot +5!
Follow me on twitch.tv/gfwarbringer! Offering free Zerg Coaching, check my Coach Thread! :)
Whias_k
Profile Joined June 2011
36 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 00:44:37
February 09 2012 00:43 GMT
#36
It's disgusting the amount of people who bash Tang, it's a great guide sure i wouldn't call it perfect or groundbreaking but it seems solid and well explained, replays are old and newer one would be nice but really not that important.

I know it's fun for some people to use the no attack the first 20min rule but some of us do like to mix it up.

Stop bashing and give some useful criticism!!
fighter2_40
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-09 00:46:39
February 09 2012 00:46 GMT
#37
On February 09 2012 09:41 Majromax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:

Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.

And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.


Because that's the way Zerg has to play. *rimshot*

I'm actually serious here. Zerg is weird in that its unit production is in direct opposition to drone production. A unit now means that is one less drone now, which means fewer minerals for later. More so than any other race, having more units later means building drones now. There's no consolation for prize for having the biggest army that still dies to a push; the only good reason (for any race) to sit at <50 workers is because the minerals need to be spent in order to not die now.

The same kind of thinking applies to larva at hatcheries. A larva sitting there is one that isn't turning into a drone or unit; it's the Zerg equivalent of an empty production queue.

Your middle path -- mixing drones and units -- has been tried by pretty much every silver-league Zerg ever. It's a great way to live to the midgame, then promptly die due to a lack of stuff.


Because the benefit of a lot of workers early is not proportional to the benefit from making half as many. Same goes for army.
emc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3088 Posts
February 09 2012 00:47 GMT
#38
Sweet guide. Whats with the hate? Seriously, you can play a defensive style if you want, I think this is it's own build just like any other ZvZ build out there.

If you want to learn a safe Zerg style, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. There are other threads and VODs out there that teach you how to play like that. I think Tang is doing us all a service by showing the aggressive options.
TibblesEvilCat
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom766 Posts
February 09 2012 00:59 GMT
#39
these replays are annoying, can i have some that are in this patch?
Live Fast Die Young :D
statikg
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada930 Posts
February 09 2012 00:59 GMT
#40
Tang is a top masters player, how many top masters are there on the strategy forum on a regular basis? ill give you a hint, its probably less then 5 per race. Scrubs will keep on bashing though.
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