EPTOn February 09 2012 09:59 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
these replays are annoying, can i have some that are in this patch?
these replays are annoying, can i have some that are in this patch?
http://drop.sc/107399
http://drop.sc/107400
http://drop.sc/107402
[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg - Page 3
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
http://drop.sc/107399 http://drop.sc/107400 http://drop.sc/107402 | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
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CHOBRO
Australia1 Post
For those calling this an "all-in" lame strategy I have to disagree, you do not understand the ZvZ matchup. This build is not "easily countered" because it is practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making lings. This build does not "pool" units, they spawn simultaneously through injects and span the map extremely quickly with metabolic boost, defenders advantage is almost non-existent. If you drone against this build, you die. If you make lings against this build you are economically equal. If you go half and half you are just gimping yourself against an opponent that droned. This build will still likely grant you equal drones after the pressure wears off due to "droning behind the attack." ZvZ is not ZvT... | ||
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Korpseflower
United States12 Posts
On February 09 2012 09:37 TangSC wrote: Banelings are obviously great against zerglings, but you strongly underestimate good zergling micro and this style as a whole. Don't judge until you've faced it please, it's not as easy as "build 6 banelings and win." Watch the stream videos, there are games against players who open 6 banelings and other defensive styles. Just as you say I underestimate good zergling micro, you seem to be underestimating good baneling control. I have faced it on the ladder before, and sure, you can win if you catch someone off guard. But for the people that understand the matchup, holding this all in is not that hard. I'm not trying to bash you here, but I want the sc2 community to grow as a whole in terms of skill and teaching people how to all in and saying it's NOT all in is detrimental to the lower level players. | ||
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Swagtacular
United States101 Posts
im one of fritzyhere's friends so ive been trying pretty much the same build its great but how do you hold like 1313gaspool just mass ling (only mining 100 gas)- - i dont think i saw it under early pressure no banes but hits just when you throw down your expo. i try making 1 spine and lings when i see whats happening, but a bunch of speedlings take care of it. how do you hold without banes or roaches without losing too many drones? | ||
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Korpseflower
United States12 Posts
On February 09 2012 10:30 CHOBRO wrote: Thanks Tang for a well written and crisp build order. For those calling this an "all-in" lame strategy I have to disagree, you do not understand the ZvZ matchup. This build is not "easily countered" because it is practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making lings. This build does not "pool" units, they spawn simultaneously through injects and span the map extremely quickly with metabolic boost, defenders advantage is almost non-existent. If you drone against this build, you die. If you make lings against this build you are economically equal. If you go half and half you are just gimping yourself against an opponent that droned. This build will still likely grant you equal drones after the pressure wears off due to "droning behind the attack." ZvZ is not ZvT... Sorry you don't seem to understand zerg as a race. In sc2, the defender always has the advantage. This is especially true in early game ZvZ. It's quite clear you are a lower league player when you say it's practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making units. Zergs need to scout, all you have to do is send a couple of lings into their base to see if they are droning or making units. Look at the post above to see the logic behind why drones early is more important than early units. If you guys want a real build order that is aggressive but has a smooth macro game transition I'll post one of my own ZvZ builds. | ||
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
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NL.Anonymous
Netherlands50 Posts
 I like to restate the fact that there is not A BO that is THE best build order. The best build order for YOU is the order that suits YOUR playstyle. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
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TibblesEvilCat
United Kingdom766 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
To be frank, 1 base ling/baneling all-inning is going to be a lot more successful and only requires minimal micro in comparison. These delayed all-ins are a complete coinflip. | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
On February 09 2012 09:46 fighter2_40 wrote: Because the benefit of a lot of workers early is not proportional to the benefit from making half as many. Same goes for army. Untrue. You both drone to 16. He continues to drone. You build 20 lings and kill all of his drones. You cannot say that there isn't a reason to build an army early. That is just not logical. Your army pays off by killing units. Your drones pay off by being able to build army. | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
On February 09 2012 10:03 TangSC wrote: http://drop.sc/107399 http://drop.sc/107400 http://drop.sc/107402 First Game: Excellent replay showing the strength of the speedling pressure, although he didn't have very good baneling micro and also let your speedlings straight into your main to kill stuff, sealing his fate. Second Game: He held off your first attack easily, garnering a huge lead. He then decides to go Mutalisks for no good reason without being in the right position for it and proceeds to lose the game due to poor Mutalisk control and you just being better than him at ZvZ. The first rush was detrimental to you, the second did heavy damage because he didn't make Roaches as he should've after holding off all your speedlings so effectively. Third Game: Early Ling/Baneling micro puts you far ahead (well done, here) and when you finally do attack him with roaches you're already ahead by a large margin. He uproots his Spine Crawlers at the worst possible moment and takes heavy damage, but after this he has the units to counter-attack and tip the game's balance back in his favor (he doesn't do this) and your drones proceed to win you the game with a roach bust against his mutalisk play. ---- All in all, I feel that you're just showing off that you have good micro, not that this build is particularly good. However, I do like pure speedling plays into roaches simply because they reward you if you trade well with banelings. The playstyle isn't especially stable, but practicing this build can give you skills that are hugely rewarding in higher level games. On February 09 2012 10:30 CHOBRO wrote: If you drone against this build, you die. If you make lings against this build you are economically equal. If you go half and half you are just gimping yourself against an opponent that droned. This build will still likely grant you equal drones after the pressure wears off due to "droning behind the attack." ZvZ is not ZvT... You act like scouting doesn't exist in ZvZ. Overlords and Speedlings are all you need. That's the real difference between super good players and the regular ones, like us. We don't scout as well, and it makes us more susceptible to all-ins. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 09 2012 11:58 CapnAmerica wrote: The playstyle isn't especially stable, but practicing this build can give you skills that are hugely rewarding in higher level games. Not many ZvZ builds are especially stable, unfortunately. Just a product of the matchup. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
2 highly-optimized timing attacks: 6Min – 42 Speedling Timing Attack 9Min – 7Roach/50+Ling Push Uhh. Knowledge and optimization of 2 timing attacks in a matchup makes it your best matchup for you? So confused! Nice prep work on if roach/ling fails and breakdown of early cheese (Haha! It's ZvZ! Ofc it aint cheese, it's just playing the matchup! Okay, just joking). Macro hatch and third queen with good saturation is sublime. | ||
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Depravity
67 Posts
On February 09 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote: That's a bit of a silly comment, considering the replays are all against top-notch master/GM players. This is not a build that can easily be stopped, assuming your execution is solid. I'm not gonna criticize about how false that statement was ^ But in these people were top-notch master/GM players - then they should be demoted Because what you're trying to say SOUNDS good - but actually does not work well in REAL execution - Maybe i'm wrong - But i'm a Top 50 1v1 master vsing Top 25 - And i'd love to show you my replay of your build. You can't play Passsive and win against zvz - unless both players are passive Or unless The other guy ALL ins - and you defend it- and you play passive instead of counter killing him But all in all - These guys aren't near GM/ Top-notch master players Like many of the people have already stated - | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On February 09 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: People who do these strategies are a free win on ladder, provided you are using good builds and can scout. On some maps they are definitely more powerful, but even then if your strategy is to make 40-50 lings as the bulk of your army you better hope your opponent has no banelings and no +1 roaches. If your opponent really sucks at scouting and is saving for mutas/infestors you can hit a timing, but if they see you coming and just make stuff you won't do any damage. To be frank, 1 base ling/baneling all-inning is going to be a lot more successful and only requires minimal micro in comparison. These delayed all-ins are a complete coinflip. For the purposes of this post, I am giving tang the benefit of the doubt on his belief that 40 lings can out-micro a defensive bling build with regularity. ophidian, do you see both defensive bling and fast +1 roach holding this? I have a feeling that there won't be enough roaches to hold the natural, only enough to plug the ramp--in which case, losing your natural is a foregone conclusion, right? Tang, I think +1 roaches are in fact one of the things you haven't covered. I like to hear what you think of a defensive roach into +1 roach timing (can it defend the 40ish lings?), as well as fast +1 roach (does +1 kick in early enough?). | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On February 09 2012 12:59 6xFPCs wrote: For the purposes of this post, I am giving tang the benefit of the doubt on his belief that 40 lings can out-micro a defensive bling build with regularity. ophidian, do you see both defensive bling and fast +1 roach holding this? I have a feeling that there won't be enough roaches to hold the natural, only enough to plug the ramp--in which case, losing your natural is a foregone conclusion, right? Tang, I think +1 roaches are in fact one of the things you haven't covered. I like to hear what you think of a defensive roach into +1 roach timing (can it defend the 40ish lings?), as well as fast +1 roach (does +1 kick in early enough?). I'm talking about 2 base in both cases. I said what I said because people play like this a lot and it's very easy to deal with provided you scout and react. The fact that other popular styles like roach/baneling or +1 roach attacks counter the styles suggested in this thread also don't bode well for people who wish to try them. Yes, they're strong all-ins, but there are better ones that don't rely on your opponent playing poorly and can transition a lot better. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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