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On February 06 2012 16:54 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 16:48 Roblin wrote:On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote:
How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is. very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating. other examples: I use a razer naga, it has software that allows me to set whatever macro I want to any of its 17 buttons, right now I have buttons 1-10 set as hotkeys1-9 and 0, (which, by the way, is factory defaults) the left/right mouse buttons and wheel is set to standard, the last buttons are unused. I could set a macro that instantly injects all my hatcheries with larvae and then returns the screen exactly as it was when I clicked the button, but I don't and I won't, because that is cheating (in this case because its not a 1:1 ratio), regardless of whether the SC2 client can recognize that it is cheating it is still cheating. But you can do this with the keyboard as I do, as well. If a key is set to Left Mouse Click, then you hold it down, exactly like Zerg holds down Z to make zerglings. Your argument that you can make a macro that clearly is not allowed to demonstrate that this 1 click = 1 action is cheating is pretty offbase.
1. I'm not arguing its cheating, I'm explaining to someone that doesn't understand others position why others think the way they do.
2. I am arguing that macroes that are not 1:1 are cheating.
3. true, you can do this with the keyboard assuming you have the appropriate software, see below.
my position is as follows:
as long as a keybinding is a 1:1 ratio, I accept it as a part of the game, however, if said keybinding cannot be done by fiddling with the options menu inside SC2 (such as binding keys to leftclick) I frown upon it, and think of it as a legal exploit.
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I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
It's a 1:1 keybind, it's legal. I'm interested how many people will start utilizing this, seems like a good idea  !
So to do this you hold shift, and then hold down R/T/whatever and rapidly scroll? Right?
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On February 06 2012 15:12 evanthebouncy! wrote:
there is no way blizzard can even try to ban it.
If they try, you can always argue that "Hey, what if I'm clicking left mouse button rly fast?"
There is simply NO clean way for them to disallow this at all.
this has nothing to do with blizzard. There are TONS of 3rd party programs that can help you play better in SC2 but they are frowned upon not because blizzard can ban you, but because you can't download 3rd party programs to help you get better at a LAN. This clearly an exploit that blizzard will never be able to detect but it's clearly an exploit. I seriously think players should get banned if they do this in tournaments.
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On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote:I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense? It's a 1:1 keybind, it's legal. I'm interested how many people will start utilizing this, seems like a good idea ! So to do this you hold shift, and then hold down R/T/whatever and rapidly scroll? Right?
Click hotkey (R for Snipe, T for Terrans, Unit for Warp- In), hold SHIFT, aim, SCROLL
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On February 06 2012 17:07 Masq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 16:48 Roblin wrote:On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote:
How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is. very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating. . How is this any different than backspace injecting?
backspace injecting is doing something that is intended to be done quickly as possible by default and scroll-sniping is something that performs an action at such a speed that may or may not be intentional or within the realm of forecasted balance.
and scrolling a wheel a quarter inch doesn't really seem like 10 actions to me. you can change the sensitivity of the scroll wheel so that it defies the typical window of actuation for an action.
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thanks toastienl, was wondering how to do it after i installed the program. and yeah, I saw a day9 daily a while back where he briefly discussed the changing of the scroll to get off snipes really quickly by morrow.
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seems kinda unfair... now terran will kill broodlords not in 15 sec but in 3 sec...
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doesn't snipe already have a minicooldown? And you can see in the vid. the Ultralisks are not dying instantly like the infested spawns do spawn instantly.
Actually I saw this in a gsl-match already the ultras died so fast to snipes just with normal clicking (maybe he used "scrolling" but the commentators didn't mention that)
I think it matters only for zerg infested spawns on tight terrain - oh right and for lower players with a slow hand.
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On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote:
I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
uh
if it was a rule that you could not do this then it would be the players who enforce it when they see their opponent do it
no pro is going to do it if it's against the rules and they can get in trouble
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They should add an internal cooldown, thats pretty imbalanced tbh.
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Blizzard should put like 0,2-0,5s Cooldown on Snipe if people start using it. Other than that i see no problem with using that method.
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like I said it already has a cooldown, it just seems pretty fast because you have many ghosts - you can still see it is not instantanous
By the way some here asked for different behaviour in windows. You can setup hotkeys for different layers (profiles) with the program provided #1post
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Ghosts were always OP in lategame TvZ, but this is just ridiculous. Blizzard has to fix it, or they have basically decided that terrans have small invisible units which oneshot anything, and decently cheap at that.
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On February 06 2012 17:31 TheYak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote:
I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense? uh if it was a rule that you could not do this then it would be the players who enforce it when they see their opponent do it no pro is going to do it if it's against the rules and they can get in trouble
Obviously, if something is against the rules no one is going to do it. But then where do you draw the line? Are you not allowed to click very fast anymore? Moving the mouse wheel is still a 1 click thing, it just happens that as a player using the scroll wheel happens to be one of the quickest ways to click.
What if a player literally already had their left click as their mouse scroll and has been using that to normally left click all this time? It's ludicrous to say ban something that is a 1 click key bind. And this has not been shown to be OP in-game with infested terran eggs or snipes or warp-in yet, so people should just wait and see before saying something even needs to be changed. 95% of players are never going to put their left click as scroll up and scroll down regardless because it is somewhat of a risk if you accidentally click the scroll button...
Macros or things that make it so you press multiple keys with 1 key press are obviously bad, and make complete sense to insta-ban from anything. A 1 click that you do with a different motion from your hand? Not so much.
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On February 06 2012 17:27 TheYak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 17:07 Masq wrote:On February 06 2012 16:48 Roblin wrote:On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote:
How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is. very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating. . How is this any different than backspace injecting? backspace injecting is doing something that is intended to be done quickly as possible by default and scroll-sniping is something that performs an action at such a speed that may or may not be intentional or within the realm of forecasted balance. and scrolling a wheel a quarter inch doesn't really seem like 10 actions to me. you can change the sensitivity of the scroll wheel so that it defies the typical window of actuation for an action.
Scolling actually triggers more events than you have bumps when you scroll. Its a bit weird actually. Only notices it when i was coding some project for coledge and things didnt even out :S Its like 1 step on mouse creates 3 events sometimes but not always.
But i may be mistaken, i didnt have time to fully test it out
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On February 06 2012 17:45 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 17:31 TheYak wrote:On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote:
I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense? uh if it was a rule that you could not do this then it would be the players who enforce it when they see their opponent do it no pro is going to do it if it's against the rules and they can get in trouble Obviously, if something is against the rules no one is going to do it. But then where do you draw the line? Are you not allowed to click very fast anymore? Moving the mouse wheel is still a 1 click thing, it just happens that as a player using the scroll wheel happens to be one of the quickest ways to click. What if a player literally already had their left click as their mouse scroll and has been using that to normally left click all this time? It's ludicrous to say ban something that is a 1 click key bind. And this has not been shown to be OP in-game with infested terran eggs or snipes or warp-in yet, so people should just wait and see before saying something even needs to be changed. 95% of players are never going to put their left click as scroll up and scroll down regardless because it is somewhat of a risk if you accidentally click the scroll button... Macros or things that make it so you press multiple keys with 1 key press are obviously bad, and make complete sense to insta-ban from anything. A 1 click that you do with a different motion from your hand? Not so much.
I mean, it was a bannable offense in FPS games like cs
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On February 06 2012 17:38 Dariusz wrote:
Blizzard should put like 0,2-0,5s Cooldown on Snipe if people start using it. Other than that i see no problem with using that method.
Ok, then you have to do that across the board for all races, for anything that you can use it on. That means warp-ins, infested terran eggs, snipes, storm, emp, etc.
Really the three main things this is even useful for is infested terran eggs, snipes, and warp-ins as those are actions you want to be able to do as fast as possible usually.
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On February 06 2012 17:48 emc wrote:I mean, it was a bannable offense in FPS games like cs
Because in-game demos record script commands, macros are easily identifiable in most FPS games.
Blink hack (800APM) bots are the only thing in SC2 for example that are noticeable.
As a developer, if you want to stop someone spamming a command 800 times in one second, you don't start writing exemptions and anti-cheat protocols for many different possibilities of executing that command, you simply set a rate limit on the original command to prevent it. Every thread 'OH MY GOD ITS ILLEGAL BAN THEM, DONT BAN THEM ,BAN THEM' is just completely irrelevant. Either the developer care enough to limit abuse, or leave it as is, the community has absolutely no say apart from bringing the issue to light.
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On February 06 2012 17:48 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 17:38 Dariusz wrote:
Blizzard should put like 0,2-0,5s Cooldown on Snipe if people start using it. Other than that i see no problem with using that method. Ok, then you have to do that across the board for all races, for anything that you can use it on. That means warp-ins, infested terran eggs, snipes, storm, emp, etc. Really the three main things this is even useful for is infested terran eggs, snipes, and warp-ins as those are actions you want to be able to do as fast as possible usually.
Ok u ppl dont seem to read it. BUT in the vid he has 13 ghosts. Each one snipes one time, together dealing 500 damage (+35 overkill). Now try it with 7 there IS a COOLDOWN on snipe!
For you easier: Do one ghost with 200 energy on one zealot. Clrealy like(!) 0.5s cooldown.
So a cooldown nerf would not deal anything in this matter to snipe as there already is a cooldown.
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On February 06 2012 14:29 jliu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 14:25 iplayBANJO wrote:
Oh god. Does that work for snipe too? O_O Doesn't snipe glitch if you hold down the R key for snipe and click? As in you have to press it separately each time.
I'm wondering about this. I just played a game and was using them against broods and it doesn't seem like holding R and clicking works very well.
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EPT
