Select you Wheel up and Wheel down as left click from the list. And presse apply. Some mouse software can be used insted of this program. Check your software before installing this.
Yeah I experimented with this type of setting as well. For a bit more description if you set one of your mouse buttons to spam the left click repeatedly (similar to how holding down a keyboard button works) stuff like infested terran spam can be done more quickly. Probably most useful when you have some infestors deep in enemy territory that you want to launch a counter attack in the midst of another battle.
For terran it allows ghosts to instagib T3 zerg units
On February 06 2012 14:01 zylog wrote: Yeah I experimented with this type of setting as well. For a bit more description if you set one of your mouse buttons to spam the left click repeatedly (similar to how holding down a keyboard button works) stuff like infested terran spam can be done more quickly. Probably most useful when you have some infestors deep in enemy territory that you want to launch a counter attack in the midst of another battle.
For terran it allows ghosts to instagib T3 zerg units
I am pretty sure command macros like that are illeagal in sc2.
On February 06 2012 14:07 Diony wrote: 1. You really have no solid detailed instructions on what you did for this to happen.
2. I think this may be a "hack" if it requires a 3rd party program to do.
From what I can gather, you simply rebind 'mouse wheel up' and 'mouse wheel down' to left click then hold down your hotkey for infested terran while repeatedly scrolling up and down.
Edit: In response to your second point, it's a 1-1 key rebind so it should be okay. I'm not sure if Blizzard has ever made an official statement on the matter though.
On February 06 2012 14:07 Diony wrote: 1. You really have no solid detailed instructions on what you did for this to happen.
2. I think this may be a "hack" if it requires a 3rd party program to do.
It's technically not a hack because each keypress corresponds to one action. So long as it isn't automated(which scrolling mousewheel back and forth isn't), it's not a hack. It is in somewhat of a grey area though, although that's the price we pay for customizable hotkeys.
On February 06 2012 14:07 Diony wrote: 1. You really have no solid detailed instructions on what you did for this to happen.
2. I think this may be a "hack" if it requires a 3rd party program to do.
In regards to your second point, I think it's legal. It requires keystrokes for every action, and a sequence of keystrokes is not automatically started by only one action.
I remember during a Day9 daily, Day9 mentioned Morrow does the same trick for his ghost snipes. That way he doesn't have to shift click and deal with the tricky AI.
I'm totally going to use this for snipes. Sometimes when you run your ghosts in to snipes broods or infestors they die before they can unload with all their energy. This seems kind of imba, but it's practically going to eliminate that problem now.
On February 06 2012 14:53 Cryllic wrote: i wonder if this is allowed in tournaments?
Unlikely as you would need to install a program on their computers before you play, from what little experience I have of tournaments this doesn't tend to happen for a variety of pretty obvious reasons.
Is it possible that there is a mouse that would let you do this?
well this is illegal unless there is some way to rebind the left click buttons in the sc2 hotkeys but unfortunately you can't as I've tried and it just doesn't work. So the only way to make this work is by using a 3rd party program which will be illegal in tournaments and LANs.
Don't waste your time unless you just want to be an abusive dick on ladder.
On February 06 2012 15:02 Dapper_Cad wrote: Unlikely as you would need to install a program on their computers before you play, from what little experience I have of tournaments this doesn't tend to happen for a variety of pretty obvious reasons.
Is it possible that there is a mouse that would let you do this?
The IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0 from Microsoft has that build in its software that you download to your pc to use it. So you don't have to use this program that i linked to.
It seems kinda silly if you download a program or have a certain mouse you can do snipe / infested terran etc faster than even a top player like MVP or Nestea though :/. If it's allowed they should make it so you can rebind it within the game settings. Any vids of mouse scrolling feed back and just waving your mouse over ghosts / infestors?
There's fast and then there's fast. Below is a screenshot from a game I played long ago. I don't use the mousewheel. Instead I have my 'm' button on my keyboard set to 'Mouse Left Click', so I just hold it down and away it goes. I don't know if it's legal for 'offline' tournaments, but I play at home and since it's equivalent to holding down 'Z' to make Zerglings, which Blizzard offers as a game tip, I'm not concerned about it being illegal.
edit: As far as tournaments, if they allow you to bring your own keyboards, and the related drivers, this is nothing more than changing what a single key on your keyboard means. It's not a macro - it's a single keystroke change. If that's allowed in tourneys, then ... It also helps for Protoss warp-ins. I've warped in quite a few Zealots quite quickly. Generally spiking at about 5k apm. The 20k was a result of a lot of infestors
Kloster broke the game. When I was playing for fun on my funday monday/terran account, I would go mass ghost and be pretty successful TvZ. I am going to try it again now.
For those that are questioning the validity / legality of this - I'm 100% sure that this would be allowed in the GSL - players are allowed to install their own mouse drivers and rebind keys as long as it's 1-to-1 key bind. For tournaments such as MLG, it "should" be allowed but time constraints may not allow for it.
For example, I'm using a Microsoft Intellimouse and the built-in drivers allow me to rebind keys. In World of Warcraft, doing such things are very common that gaming mice have been released to have many buttons on a mouse.
Wow, this is huge. This is like almost magic box huge, not quite that drastic but man. I wonder if blizz will patch it out. because if it isnt, i m definitely going to run that for my ghosts. Theres probably a few more uses for this that we havent thought out yet.
So... Guys, you k now this problem with Feedback, that targeting thing? Time to use the wheel and just go crazy around the screen huh?! Instant Everything feedback!
Calling it now, Blizzard gonna do something to stop this like the viking flower -___-
Except they can't do anything to stop 3rd party softwares from rebinding keys....
The only way they can stop this is probably to prevent smart casting, but that's unlikely going to be the case.
There has to be a position about this in tournaments though. It's going to be abusive and broken as fuck. Not sure how they're going to stop this on ladder/online tourneys though.
On February 06 2012 15:36 ToastieNL wrote: So... Guys, you k now this problem with Feedback, that targeting thing? Time to use the wheel and just go crazy around the screen huh?! Instant Everything feedback!
Well, Feedback is tricky with this. If your Feedback doesn't kill it, you will continue to cast it, doing nothing but wasting energy on that target. Same with EMP, Fungal Growth, etc. It's really only good for a few things, and those are 1) infested terrans, 2) snipe, 3) warping in protoss units, 4, queueing attacks on SCVs building things (queued attacks keeps the SCV under attack).
Is there any way that you can set it so it's only active in game, it's quite annoying to scroll up and down through chat windows with this thing on. I guess you could only have it on in game though although that's somewhat of a hassle as well.
pretty sick, its just like rebinding Mouse1 to scroll wheel in CS if you are messing around with the dual pistols lol. Dont know why noone thought about this before great catch.
Calling it now, Blizzard gonna do something to stop this like the viking flower -___-
Except they can't do anything to stop 3rd party softwares from rebinding keys....
The only way they can stop this is probably to prevent smart casting, but that's unlikely going to be the case.
There has to be a position about this in tournaments though. It's going to be abusive and broken as fuck. Not sure how they're going to stop this on ladder/online tourneys though.
Calling it now, Blizzard gonna do something to stop this like the viking flower -___-
Except they can't do anything to stop 3rd party softwares from rebinding keys....
The only way they can stop this is probably to prevent smart casting, but that's unlikely going to be the case.
There has to be a position about this in tournaments though. It's going to be abusive and broken as fuck. Not sure how they're going to stop this on ladder/online tourneys though.
They could put a cap on key spamming I guess.
But how, a certain timer? It has to be over the speed of pros because else you limit them, but if its over pro speed, it's still usefull. Very interesting thingy!
Yea this is pretty broken, I'm not sure how blizzard will address this though. I went pure infestors and just spammed marines everywhere, I won pretty handily.
Regarding Blizzard being able to stop this (if they chose to) or not, I think they would be able to easily. After all, from what I've heard, all the big name FPS games like CoD have disabled the ability to bind "fire" to "scroll up / scroll down" (to stop people from abusing it by using semi-automatic rifles like machine guns of doom.
Well, there is a 1 second internal cooldown on Queen's Transfuse ability, I could see Blizzard applying that same mechanism to snipe and infested terran, however that would be a significant nerf, especially for infested terran.
On February 06 2012 15:54 Warlock40 wrote: Regarding Blizzard being able to stop this (if they chose to) or not, I think they would be able to easily. After all, from what I've heard, all the big name FPS games like CoD have disabled the ability to bind "fire" to "scroll up / scroll down" (to stop people from abusing it by using semi-automatic rifles like machine guns of doom.
This has an outside program bind mwheel up/down to left click.
They could pretty easily add a fractional cooldown on abilities, but its still cool.
Pretty cool find Just like CS though, binding keys. I hope this doesn't get nerfed or anything [Although i don't see any possible solutions right now] as It doesn't seem to be very game-breaking.
How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
This is a good find. I hope blizzard sees this and puts a short CD on things this applies to. Being able to snipe or get IT's out that fast is way too good imo (especially snipe vs T3 zerg and templar). There's nothing blizz can do to stop people from rebinding using third party software, but a short CD on the spells would certainly hinder this.
This is known since ancient times, even Day9 said it 3-4 times on his stream. Good that you made this knowledge more public though. Morrow is a prime example who uses this. And now get over it.
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating.
other examples: I use a razer naga, it has software that allows me to set whatever macro I want to any of its 17 buttons, right now I have buttons 1-10 set as hotkeys1-9 and 0, (which, by the way, is factory defaults) the left/right mouse buttons and wheel is set to standard, the last buttons are unused.
I could set a macro that instantly injects all my hatcheries with larvae and then returns the screen exactly as it was when I clicked the button, but I don't and I won't, because that is cheating (in this case because its not a 1:1 ratio), regardless of whether the SC2 client can recognize that it is cheating it is still cheating.
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating.
other examples: I use a razer naga, it has software that allows me to set whatever macro I want to any of its 17 buttons, right now I have buttons 1-10 set as hotkeys1-9 and 0, (which, by the way, is factory defaults) the left/right mouse buttons and wheel is set to standard, the last buttons are unused.
I could set a macro that instantly injects all my hatcheries with larvae and then returns the screen exactly as it was when I clicked the button, but I don't and I won't, because that is cheating (in this case because its not a 1:1 ratio), regardless of whether the SC2 client can recognize that it is cheating it is still cheating.
On the other hand, I would argue that switching liftoff from L to Q(or whatever that is more nearby) increases your speed at lifting off by being more accesible; not to a 1:1 rate. Disable that too?
I find it very hard to argue this is a cheat/hack. I don't like what it is, but it doesn't seem to be unfair...
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating.
other examples: I use a razer naga, it has software that allows me to set whatever macro I want to any of its 17 buttons, right now I have buttons 1-10 set as hotkeys1-9 and 0, (which, by the way, is factory defaults) the left/right mouse buttons and wheel is set to standard, the last buttons are unused.
I could set a macro that instantly injects all my hatcheries with larvae and then returns the screen exactly as it was when I clicked the button, but I don't and I won't, because that is cheating (in this case because its not a 1:1 ratio), regardless of whether the SC2 client can recognize that it is cheating it is still cheating.
But you can do this with the keyboard as I do, as well. If a key is set to Left Mouse Click, then you hold it down, exactly like Zerg holds down Z to make zerglings. Your argument that you can make a macro that clearly is not allowed to demonstrate that this 1 click = 1 action is cheating is pretty offbase.
On February 06 2012 16:03 ticklishmusic wrote: Zerg T3 is a joke with this.
Man, they nerfed ghosts slightly and then THIS happens?
The ghost cost change was a terran buff, not a nerf
1. terrans like to argue its a terran nerf because terrans are more reliant on minerals than they are gas.
2. I think he refers to ghost emp.
if I were blizz I would add a short timeframe (like 0.2 secs) between the snipe animation and actual damage, that way overkill would be a serious problem when using this trick since its very difficult to control how "much" you are spamming, if you spam too much you will just find yourself in a situation where you wasted 4-6 ghosts worth of snipes on a single ultralisk/broodlord.
On February 06 2012 16:03 ticklishmusic wrote: Zerg T3 is a joke with this.
Man, they nerfed ghosts slightly and then THIS happens?
The ghost cost change was a terran buff, not a nerf
1. terrans like to argue its a terran nerf because terrans are more reliant on minerals than they are gas.
2. I think he refers to ghost emp.
if I were blizz I would add a short timeframe (like 0.2 secs) between the snipe animation and actual damage, that way overkill would be a serious problem when using this trick since its very difficult to control how "much" you are spamming, if you spam too much you will just find yourself in a situation where you wasted 4-6 ghosts worth of snipes on a single ultralisk/broodlord.
You don't waste snipes; snipe is instant, so no overkill. Also, the 0.2 timeframe doesn't help; It still makes people using this incredibly fast, the only thing it might do is hamper pro's.
On February 06 2012 16:03 ticklishmusic wrote: Zerg T3 is a joke with this.
Man, they nerfed ghosts slightly and then THIS happens?
The ghost cost change was a terran buff, not a nerf
Kind of annoying how so many protoss have this misconception I think it's because they have good gas dumps in HT's and collosus so they automatically think cheaper gas wise= always better.
It's a buff to early ghost timing attacks since it's harder to get enough gas for ghosts + upgrades needed to support the ghost timing attack in the early game. However for w/e reason we haven't seen this much, MKP used to use them alot dunno if he still does. we will find out in his game vs genius I think he will.
Anyways back to the point, I'd say by the time 3-3 is started researching most terran would definitely prefer ghost is gas heavier, because their army is already mineral heavy, marine all min, marauder 4:1 min gas ratio, ghost 2:1, viking 2:1. You need ghosts to counter ht which is 1:3 min to gas, and viking for collosus which is 3:2 min gas. So yes protoss is gas heavy, terran is not so making another unit more mineral heavy is not good for T(watch any tvp game past 20 minutes T gas starts stockpiling hard 2k+ even from the best terrans). So it's a buff for a specific timing, but a nerf in longer games since a protoss can actually make use of all the gas he mines whereas gas past 3 bases max(even then its overkill) is useless in current tvp meta for terran.
On February 06 2012 17:04 hnim wrote: When I do this trick with snipe, I'm supposed to hold down R and scroll up right, because when I do that too much it selects the broodlords.
Hold down shift r and every click should count as a snipe click.
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating. .
How is this any different than backspace injecting?
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating.
other examples: I use a razer naga, it has software that allows me to set whatever macro I want to any of its 17 buttons, right now I have buttons 1-10 set as hotkeys1-9 and 0, (which, by the way, is factory defaults) the left/right mouse buttons and wheel is set to standard, the last buttons are unused.
I could set a macro that instantly injects all my hatcheries with larvae and then returns the screen exactly as it was when I clicked the button, but I don't and I won't, because that is cheating (in this case because its not a 1:1 ratio), regardless of whether the SC2 client can recognize that it is cheating it is still cheating.
But you can do this with the keyboard as I do, as well. If a key is set to Left Mouse Click, then you hold it down, exactly like Zerg holds down Z to make zerglings. Your argument that you can make a macro that clearly is not allowed to demonstrate that this 1 click = 1 action is cheating is pretty offbase.
1. I'm not arguing its cheating, I'm explaining to someone that doesn't understand others position why others think the way they do.
2. I am arguing that macroes that are not 1:1 are cheating.
3. true, you can do this with the keyboard assuming you have the appropriate software, see below.
my position is as follows: as long as a keybinding is a 1:1 ratio, I accept it as a part of the game, however, if said keybinding cannot be done by fiddling with the options menu inside SC2 (such as binding keys to leftclick) I frown upon it, and think of it as a legal exploit.
I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
It's a 1:1 keybind, it's legal. I'm interested how many people will start utilizing this, seems like a good idea !
So to do this you hold shift, and then hold down R/T/whatever and rapidly scroll? Right?
On February 06 2012 15:12 evanthebouncy! wrote: there is no way blizzard can even try to ban it. If they try, you can always argue that "Hey, what if I'm clicking left mouse button rly fast?"
There is simply NO clean way for them to disallow this at all.
this has nothing to do with blizzard. There are TONS of 3rd party programs that can help you play better in SC2 but they are frowned upon not because blizzard can ban you, but because you can't download 3rd party programs to help you get better at a LAN. This clearly an exploit that blizzard will never be able to detect but it's clearly an exploit. I seriously think players should get banned if they do this in tournaments.
On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote: I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
It's a 1:1 keybind, it's legal. I'm interested how many people will start utilizing this, seems like a good idea !
So to do this you hold shift, and then hold down R/T/whatever and rapidly scroll? Right?
Click hotkey (R for Snipe, T for Terrans, Unit for Warp- In), hold SHIFT, aim, SCROLL
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating. .
How is this any different than backspace injecting?
backspace injecting is doing something that is intended to be done quickly as possible by default and scroll-sniping is something that performs an action at such a speed that may or may not be intentional or within the realm of forecasted balance.
and scrolling a wheel a quarter inch doesn't really seem like 10 actions to me. you can change the sensitivity of the scroll wheel so that it defies the typical window of actuation for an action.
thanks toastienl, was wondering how to do it after i installed the program. and yeah, I saw a day9 daily a while back where he briefly discussed the changing of the scroll to get off snipes really quickly by morrow.
doesn't snipe already have a minicooldown? And you can see in the vid. the Ultralisks are not dying instantly like the infested spawns do spawn instantly.
Actually I saw this in a gsl-match already the ultras died so fast to snipes just with normal clicking (maybe he used "scrolling" but the commentators didn't mention that)
I think it matters only for zerg infested spawns on tight terrain - oh right and for lower players with a slow hand.
On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote: I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
uh if it was a rule that you could not do this then it would be the players who enforce it when they see their opponent do it no pro is going to do it if it's against the rules and they can get in trouble
Ghosts were always OP in lategame TvZ, but this is just ridiculous. Blizzard has to fix it, or they have basically decided that terrans have small invisible units which oneshot anything, and decently cheap at that.
On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote: I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
uh if it was a rule that you could not do this then it would be the players who enforce it when they see their opponent do it no pro is going to do it if it's against the rules and they can get in trouble
Obviously, if something is against the rules no one is going to do it. But then where do you draw the line? Are you not allowed to click very fast anymore? Moving the mouse wheel is still a 1 click thing, it just happens that as a player using the scroll wheel happens to be one of the quickest ways to click.
What if a player literally already had their left click as their mouse scroll and has been using that to normally left click all this time? It's ludicrous to say ban something that is a 1 click key bind. And this has not been shown to be OP in-game with infested terran eggs or snipes or warp-in yet, so people should just wait and see before saying something even needs to be changed. 95% of players are never going to put their left click as scroll up and scroll down regardless because it is somewhat of a risk if you accidentally click the scroll button...
Macros or things that make it so you press multiple keys with 1 key press are obviously bad, and make complete sense to insta-ban from anything. A 1 click that you do with a different motion from your hand? Not so much.
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating. .
How is this any different than backspace injecting?
backspace injecting is doing something that is intended to be done quickly as possible by default and scroll-sniping is something that performs an action at such a speed that may or may not be intentional or within the realm of forecasted balance.
and scrolling a wheel a quarter inch doesn't really seem like 10 actions to me. you can change the sensitivity of the scroll wheel so that it defies the typical window of actuation for an action.
Scolling actually triggers more events than you have bumps when you scroll. Its a bit weird actually. Only notices it when i was coding some project for coledge and things didnt even out :S Its like 1 step on mouse creates 3 events sometimes but not always. But i may be mistaken, i didnt have time to fully test it out
On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote: I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
uh if it was a rule that you could not do this then it would be the players who enforce it when they see their opponent do it no pro is going to do it if it's against the rules and they can get in trouble
Obviously, if something is against the rules no one is going to do it. But then where do you draw the line? Are you not allowed to click very fast anymore? Moving the mouse wheel is still a 1 click thing, it just happens that as a player using the scroll wheel happens to be one of the quickest ways to click.
What if a player literally already had their left click as their mouse scroll and has been using that to normally left click all this time? It's ludicrous to say ban something that is a 1 click key bind. And this has not been shown to be OP in-game with infested terran eggs or snipes or warp-in yet, so people should just wait and see before saying something even needs to be changed. 95% of players are never going to put their left click as scroll up and scroll down regardless because it is somewhat of a risk if you accidentally click the scroll button...
Macros or things that make it so you press multiple keys with 1 key press are obviously bad, and make complete sense to insta-ban from anything. A 1 click that you do with a different motion from your hand? Not so much.
I mean, it was a bannable offense in FPS games like cs
On February 06 2012 17:38 Dariusz wrote: Blizzard should put like 0,2-0,5s Cooldown on Snipe if people start using it. Other than that i see no problem with using that method.
Ok, then you have to do that across the board for all races, for anything that you can use it on. That means warp-ins, infested terran eggs, snipes, storm, emp, etc.
Really the three main things this is even useful for is infested terran eggs, snipes, and warp-ins as those are actions you want to be able to do as fast as possible usually.
On February 06 2012 17:48 emc wrote:I mean, it was a bannable offense in FPS games like cs
Because in-game demos record script commands, macros are easily identifiable in most FPS games. Blink hack (800APM) bots are the only thing in SC2 for example that are noticeable.
As a developer, if you want to stop someone spamming a command 800 times in one second, you don't start writing exemptions and anti-cheat protocols for many different possibilities of executing that command, you simply set a rate limit on the original command to prevent it. Every thread 'OH MY GOD ITS ILLEGAL BAN THEM, DONT BAN THEM ,BAN THEM' is just completely irrelevant. Either the developer care enough to limit abuse, or leave it as is, the community has absolutely no say apart from bringing the issue to light.
On February 06 2012 17:38 Dariusz wrote: Blizzard should put like 0,2-0,5s Cooldown on Snipe if people start using it. Other than that i see no problem with using that method.
Ok, then you have to do that across the board for all races, for anything that you can use it on. That means warp-ins, infested terran eggs, snipes, storm, emp, etc.
Really the three main things this is even useful for is infested terran eggs, snipes, and warp-ins as those are actions you want to be able to do as fast as possible usually.
Ok u ppl dont seem to read it. BUT in the vid he has 13 ghosts. Each one snipes one time, together dealing 500 damage (+35 overkill). Now try it with 7 there IS a COOLDOWN on snipe!
For you easier: Do one ghost with 200 energy on one zealot. Clrealy like(!) 0.5s cooldown. So a cooldown nerf would not deal anything in this matter to snipe as there already is a cooldown.
Can anybody help me? I do snipe pretty bad.When use Shift+R+click,ghosts do it too slow,because they seem to reload,and when do it only pressing R+click on target,there are many times i click twice on target son ghosts stop sniping.Is there a way to do it better or its all question of practice???
I'm not sure if this is broken. We need to see someone using it first in offline tournament before claiming it's really some kind of cheat. In the sniper video all we saw was 10 ghosts against 3 ultras. Don't be fooled by the easyness of this trick to kill them cauz we could do it manually as well. It's just slighty longer. But to say it could "break" the game? I'd say just let it be and see what happens.
What i'm worried about is mass snipe vs zealot armies, the only reason it was okay before was because it is hard to click on 25 speedlots... Problem solved :o
On February 06 2012 18:03 Dvriel wrote: Can anybody help me? I do snipe pretty bad.When use Shift+R+click,ghosts do it too slow,because they seem to reload,and when do it only pressing R+click on target,there are many times i click twice on target son ghosts stop sniping.Is there a way to do it better or its all question of practice???
It's buggy so the best possible way is to put ghosts into a hotkey -> spam R + left click on units. It's very hard at first but it takes practice, queueing snipes isn't as smooth as queueing storms for some reason.
On February 06 2012 18:03 Dvriel wrote: Can anybody help me? I do snipe pretty bad.When use Shift+R+click,ghosts do it too slow,because they seem to reload,and when do it only pressing R+click on target,there are many times i click twice on target son ghosts stop sniping.Is there a way to do it better or its all question of practice???
If you make the ghost hold fire before doing Shift+R+click it works better but its still a little weird. Try it out on a unit test map and see how it works you just have to be a little careful with them because they won't be auto attacking.
On February 06 2012 17:48 emc wrote:I mean, it was a bannable offense in FPS games like cs
Because in-game demos record script commands, macros are easily identifiable in most FPS games. Blink hack (800APM) bots are the only thing in SC2 for example that are noticeable.
As a developer, if you want to stop someone spamming a command 800 times in one second, you don't start writing exemptions and anti-cheat protocols for many different possibilities of executing that command, you simply set a rate limit on the original command to prevent it. Every thread 'OH MY GOD ITS ILLEGAL BAN THEM, DONT BAN THEM ,BAN THEM' is just completely irrelevant. Either the developer care enough to limit abuse, or leave it as is, the community has absolutely no say apart from bringing the issue to light.
you are completely right, this isn't something blizzard can ban but this is something the community can. If it requires a 3rd party program to make this work, then this will never be allowed in LAN tournaments. Once you eliminate LAN, then soon the pros won't play online against a suspected user in tournaments and the community follows.
On February 06 2012 17:38 Dariusz wrote: Blizzard should put like 0,2-0,5s Cooldown on Snipe if people start using it. Other than that i see no problem with using that method.
Ok, then you have to do that across the board for all races, for anything that you can use it on. That means warp-ins, infested terran eggs, snipes, storm, emp, etc.
Really the three main things this is even useful for is infested terran eggs, snipes, and warp-ins as those are actions you want to be able to do as fast as possible usually.
Ok u ppl dont seem to read it. BUT in the vid he has 13 ghosts. Each one snipes one time, together dealing 500 damage (+35 overkill). Now try it with 7 there IS a COOLDOWN on snipe!
For you easier: Do one ghost with 200 energy on one zealot. Clrealy like(!) 0.5s cooldown. So a cooldown nerf would not deal anything in this matter to snipe as there already is a cooldown.
On February 06 2012 18:03 Dvriel wrote: Can anybody help me? I do snipe pretty bad.When use Shift+R+click,ghosts do it too slow,because they seem to reload,and when do it only pressing R+click on target,there are many times i click twice on target son ghosts stop sniping.Is there a way to do it better or its all question of practice???
If you make the ghost hold fire before doing Shift+R+click it works better but its still a little weird. Try it out on a unit test map and see how it works you just have to be a little careful with them because they won't be auto attacking.
Thanks very much man!
Really help a lot by Hold Fire.For some reason if not they do weird thing and start shooting in "normal mode".It works much better if they dont attack,althought the ghosts out of range wait for the first line to go out of energy.As someone wrote,Storm does work much easier...
On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote: I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
It's a 1:1 keybind, it's legal. I'm interested how many people will start utilizing this, seems like a good idea !
The program that has been linked in the OP is not a device driver; it is a third-party software program that allows you to remap your mouse buttons. The Starcraft 2 End User License Agreement does not allow the use of unauthorized third-party software.
Also, if you look in your Starcraft 2 Hotkey list, it does not allow you to rebind any mouse buttons (at least, not on my mouse), therefore, necessitates the use of a third-party program in order to bind the click command to the mouse wheel. Again, unauthorized third-party software is against the SC2 End User License Agreement.
I imagine that major LAN tournaments would not allow you to install a third-party program onto their computer in order to gain an edge.
I know that in many FPS tournaments binding scroll wheels to fire is banned because it turns semi-auto guns into full auto guns. Based on this, I wouldn't be surprised if tournaments started banning scroll wheel binds.
Obviously this will be somewhat difficult to enforce for online tournaments, but upon review I think that 20k APM will be somewhat suspicious.
On February 06 2012 18:39 CortoMontez wrote: I know that in many FPS tournaments binding scroll wheels to fire is banned because it turns semi-auto guns into full auto guns. Based on this, I wouldn't be surprised if tournaments started banning scroll wheel binds.
Obviously this will be somewhat difficult to enforce for online tournaments, but upon review I think that 20k APM will be somewhat suspicious.
20k is only reached with stupid settings. You can setup your mouse wheel speed. I can do it for 1 speed up to 8 speed. So one scroll means 1 click. up to 8 clicks. Scrolling maybe 3 times with speed 3. means 9 snipes which is pretty good and will by far not mean 20k apm. With low settings you have the advantage and still normal apm - max 1000 ^^ the problem with too low settings is: only for warp ins: they get spread too far. you need a speed like 4 so that the units stand in a row after warping in.
Btw: All tried the last minutes.
On February 06 2012 18:39 wongfeihung wrote:
The program that has been linked in the OP is not a device driver; it is a third-party software program that allows you to remap your mouse buttons. The Starcraft 2 End User License Agreement does not allow the use of unauthorized third-party software.
[...].
But there are advice drivers that let you do this stuff. So ban the players who use the 3. party software and don't ban the ones who use their advice driver? &:-O
On February 06 2012 18:48 SamsLiST wrote: this is soo broken -.-
...abuse for ALL the abilities!!!
instant chain-warp in from 20 gates is nice to have, instant feedback on whole army too... transfuse... ...bind to rightclick for 300 apm
this got already removed from the list of viable abilities. The only useable are listed on the first page... feedback: you would feedback on 0 energy... WHy would you want to feedback several times?? Second: Try this first. It is not as easy to move your mouse in the speed that you scroll your wheel - there will be many overkill-feedbacks.
On February 06 2012 18:48 SamsLiST wrote: this is soo broken -.-
...abuse for ALL the abilities!!!
instant chain-warp in from 20 gates is nice to have, instant feedback on whole army too... transfuse... ...bind to rightclick for 300 apm
this got already removed from the list of viable abilities. The only useable are listed on the first page... feedback: you would feedback on 0 energy... WHy would you want to feedback several times?? Second: Try this first. It is not as easy to move your mouse in the speed that you scroll your wheel - there will be many overkill-feedbacks.
Crap. If this hits popularity there goes zerg's entire T3 endgame. getting like 8-9 ghosts would already wreck any ultra composition and would trade extremely efficiently with broods. I can't wait to see this break a gsl game.
On February 06 2012 19:03 CookieMaker wrote: Crap. If this hits popularity there goes zerg's entire T3 endgame. getting like 8-9 ghosts would already wreck any ultra composition and would trade extremely efficiently with broods. I can't wait to see this break a gsl game.
snipe vs ultras requires a LOT of ghosts, with a LOT of energy. Something that is neglected in the video with the ultra vs ghost is that all the ghosts had 200 energy, 11 ghosts to 4 ultras, 2200 minerals, 1100 gas to 1200 minerals, 800 gas.
At the end of the video almost all the ghosts had little to no energy, making it easy pickings for 4 more ultras.
Yes, this will help immensely in ghost vs ultra/broodlord unit comps, but I doubt it will "break" a gsl game, because while no longer as limited in snipe time, you are still limited by the fact you need a high ghost count and high energy on those ghosts to make it work.
Seems to me like people are exaggerating how powerful this is, especially in the case of Snipe.
How many times do you see a Terran fail to beat a Zerg army of Broods and/or Ultras because they couldn't snipe everything fast enough?? No matter how fast you can dish out the Snipes, you still need to spend time doing other important tasks such as splitting Marines, EMP'ing Infestors, avoiding Fungals & focus firing with Vikings/Siege Tanks, blah, blah, blah. If you have enough Ghosts to legitimately roll over an entire Zerg T3 army without needing to focus on other elements of the battle, chances are you had the battle won before it even begun.
On February 06 2012 19:03 CookieMaker wrote: Crap. If this hits popularity there goes zerg's entire T3 endgame. getting like 8-9 ghosts would already wreck any ultra composition and would trade extremely efficiently with broods. I can't wait to see this break a gsl game.
Doubt it will break a GSL game as: 1. I think the top pros already know of this. 2. They are fast enough without this and this trick if not known will give them maybe slight edge in multitasking, but not much else.
How do I switch between the 2 layouts? With scrolling being left click and a normal one? So I got one for gaming and the other one for other stuff.
edit: nvm, I don't use this anymore. The repitition of my r key when holding it down is not quick enough to keep up with my scroll speed. It keeps deselecting my ghosts, this is too fast.
On February 06 2012 19:20 decaf wrote: How do I switch between the 2 layouts? With scrolling being left click and a normal one? So I got one for gaming and the other one for other stuff.
edit: nvm, I don't use this anymore. The repitition of my r key when holding it down is not quick enough to keep up with my scroll speed. It keeps deselecting my ghosts, this is too fast.
just press settings and set the layout hotkey?? mine is numpad 8 and 9 for the normal one. btw the programm is making sc2 lag.
on your edit: use shift? its all explained..
Update: I tried Warp in in Ladder games. Works, BUT sc2 slows down at the moment when using a high scroll speed... it's not the grafics: I still got 60 fps. Perfectly fine in custom games though... Im wondering what the reason is... Pc beeps in every case with high scroll speeds.
Side note: I can't find the video on youtube with search words: starcraft 2 snipe scroll wheel even though that's almost the name... Has this to do wiht SOPA? making me not find videos certain countries???
On February 06 2012 17:18 avilo wrote: I'm pretty sure this will be 100% allowed. Do people seriously think blizzard are going to ban you or MLG or any serious tournament is going to ban all mice from being used during tournaments? Because that's what you'd have to do, you'd basically have to ban any mouse that has a driver...so yeah...ban all razer mice from tourneys and other non-sense?
It's a 1:1 keybind, it's legal. I'm interested how many people will start utilizing this, seems like a good idea !
The program that has been linked in the OP is not a device driver; it is a third-party software program that allows you to remap your mouse buttons. The Starcraft 2 End User License Agreement does not allow the use of unauthorized third-party software.
Also, if you look in your Starcraft 2 Hotkey list, it does not allow you to rebind any mouse buttons (at least, not on my mouse), therefore, necessitates the use of a third-party program in order to bind the click command to the mouse wheel. Again, unauthorized third-party software is against the SC2 End User License Agreement.
I imagine that major LAN tournaments would not allow you to install a third-party program onto their computer in order to gain an edge.
The program linked in the OP allows it for non-gaming mice, I assume. Pretty sure that most, if not all, gaming mice already have the capabilty to carry customized settings inside them. Steelseries allows for multiple different customized profiles in one mouse.
On February 06 2012 19:03 CookieMaker wrote: Crap. If this hits popularity there goes zerg's entire T3 endgame. getting like 8-9 ghosts would already wreck any ultra composition and would trade extremely efficiently with broods. I can't wait to see this break a gsl game.
snipe vs ultras requires a LOT of ghosts, with a LOT of energy. Something that is neglected in the video with the ultra vs ghost is that all the ghosts had 200 energy, 11 ghosts to 4 ultras, 2200 minerals, 1100 gas to 1200 minerals, 800 gas.
At the end of the video almost all the ghosts had little to no energy, making it easy pickings for 4 more ultras.
Yes, this will help immensely in ghost vs ultra/broodlord unit comps, but I doubt it will "break" a gsl game, because while no longer as limited in snipe time, you are still limited by the fact you need a high ghost count and high energy on those ghosts to make it work.
If you actually did the math, you would know that it takes 12 snipes (300 ghost energy) to kill one ultralisk. 11 snipes leave ultralisk with 5hp, and 5hp ultralisk dies to one shot of reqular ghost attack.
Full energy ghost are cost efficient vs ultralisk that way.
On February 06 2012 19:15 Dox wrote: Seems to me like people are exaggerating how powerful this is, especially in the case of Snipe.
How many times do you see a Terran fail to beat a Zerg army of Broods and/or Ultras because they couldn't snipe everything fast enough?? No matter how fast you can dish out the Snipes, you still need to spend time doing other important tasks such as splitting Marines, EMP'ing Infestors, avoiding Fungals & focus firing with Vikings/Siege Tanks, blah, blah, blah. If you have enough Ghosts to legitimately roll over an entire Zerg T3 army without needing to focus on other elements of the battle, chances are you had the battle won before it even begun.
The difference is that with this, you're just about fast enough to use up snipe before you have to worry about anything else since all you need is to get in range, hold down a button, roll mousewheel to oneshot a majority of the T3 army before it does any damage at all.
On February 06 2012 19:15 Dox wrote: Seems to me like people are exaggerating how powerful this is, especially in the case of Snipe.
How many times do you see a Terran fail to beat a Zerg army of Broods and/or Ultras because they couldn't snipe everything fast enough?? No matter how fast you can dish out the Snipes, you still need to spend time doing other important tasks such as splitting Marines, EMP'ing Infestors, avoiding Fungals & focus firing with Vikings/Siege Tanks, blah, blah, blah. If you have enough Ghosts to legitimately roll over an entire Zerg T3 army without needing to focus on other elements of the battle, chances are you had the battle won before it even begun.
The difference is that with this, you're just about fast enough to use up snipe before you have to worry about anything else since all you need is to get in range, hold down a button, roll mousewheel to oneshot a majority of the T3 army before it does any damage at all.
yeah but if your t3 army is small enough that it gets killed before it does any damage at all, IE 4 ultras vs 11 ghosts... you were fucked anyway..
interesting, its exactly what a CS 1.6 russian team discovered several years ago (it was usefull with the dual guns). they used it in some big tournament, and then all the tournaments updated their rules to forbid this.
edit: more recently it was used to duck jump very fast and move as fast as running without any noise (been banned too to bind crouch to the mouse wheel)
so in both case tournaments did update their rules, lets see what happen in sc2
On February 06 2012 19:15 Dox wrote: Seems to me like people are exaggerating how powerful this is, especially in the case of Snipe.
How many times do you see a Terran fail to beat a Zerg army of Broods and/or Ultras because they couldn't snipe everything fast enough?? No matter how fast you can dish out the Snipes, you still need to spend time doing other important tasks such as splitting Marines, EMP'ing Infestors, avoiding Fungals & focus firing with Vikings/Siege Tanks, blah, blah, blah. If you have enough Ghosts to legitimately roll over an entire Zerg T3 army without needing to focus on other elements of the battle, chances are you had the battle won before it even begun.
The difference is that with this, you're just about fast enough to use up snipe before you have to worry about anything else since all you need is to get in range, hold down a button, roll mousewheel to oneshot a majority of the T3 army before it does any damage at all.
yeah but if your t3 army is small enough that it gets killed before it does any damage at all, IE 4 ultras vs 11 ghosts... you were fucked anyway..
The ghost just have to reduce the units below critical mass. Having 15 broodlords is awesome, if ghosts immediately kill half of those, you're screwed.
This is like bunny hopping from counter strike, where you bound the jump key to the scroll bar, you couldn't do a lot of advanced trick jumping without it. It was never illegal. Brilliant find for the snipe, guessing this will apply to feedbacks as well, especially against bio, to mass feedback all the medvacs and pave the way for storm.
edit: duck jumping was a bug in the engine, and didn't really require the mouse wheel to do. Trick jumping was never banned.
On February 06 2012 19:15 Dox wrote: Seems to me like people are exaggerating how powerful this is, especially in the case of Snipe.
How many times do you see a Terran fail to beat a Zerg army of Broods and/or Ultras because they couldn't snipe everything fast enough?? No matter how fast you can dish out the Snipes, you still need to spend time doing other important tasks such as splitting Marines, EMP'ing Infestors, avoiding Fungals & focus firing with Vikings/Siege Tanks, blah, blah, blah. If you have enough Ghosts to legitimately roll over an entire Zerg T3 army without needing to focus on other elements of the battle, chances are you had the battle won before it even begun.
The difference is that with this, you're just about fast enough to use up snipe before you have to worry about anything else since all you need is to get in range, hold down a button, roll mousewheel to oneshot a majority of the T3 army before it does any damage at all.
yeah but if your t3 army is small enough that it gets killed before it does any damage at all, IE 4 ultras vs 11 ghosts... you were fucked anyway..
The ghost just have to reduce the units below critical mass. Having 15 broodlords is awesome, if ghosts immediately kill half of those, you're screwed.
yes but then ghosts have to be in range of the broodlords, meaning they can also be in range to get fungaled, or hit by the broodlords, which will cause splash damage by tanks. Meaning this will still be a micro battle more than a "ghost kills everything" situation.
Unless you were thinking of just not making zerglings or infestors with your broodlords, in which yeah this is totally broken >.>
Just to clarify 3 ghost wont snipe anything down nearly as fast as 10 since there is an animation with a cooldown and max speed can be reached even by left-clicking with lesser amounts. So if you would increase the cooldown on it would make smaller ghost counts much weaker while the bigger ghost armies wont take nearly as big of a hit. Thats not a way to solve it.
I am wondering if this could be used against Banelings. This way you can remove Siege Tanks from your army and replace them with Ghosts, which also do bonus damage against Mutas...
On February 06 2012 20:35 50bani wrote: I am wondering if this could be used against Banelings. This way you can remove Siege Tanks from your army and replace them with Ghosts, which also do bonus damage against Mutas...
I actually had experience of this. Now bear in mind this was around Diamond / Platinum level so don't take it as Meta level. However I was say 2 base and he was 1. He pushed out with marines + a few ghosts. He did what you said, attacked my zerglings with marines and sniped all my banelings. I was quite shocked how well it worked, I had little to combat it. However in the end I found that perhaps his skill was not up to it or perhaps mechanically but in the end I simply had more zerglings and banelings than he could cope with.
Also the Ghost tech didn't really lead him anywhere. I was able to macro up quite hard and there was little he could do to counteract things like Spinecrawlers.
This reminds me of when Mutastacking temporarily broke the balance in SC1. People will adapt and the game will continue to develop. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
haha cool trick, alot of people use the scroll wheel if they have to spam one button, it actually was implented in a game i play hmm around 5 years ago. Anyway i consider macros as worse as botting and unless something is supported by the game itself it shouldn't be used as it will shift benefits to the player using it. Also if this becomes standard snipe and infested terrans will get a delay, which will result good player not being able to get the last out of the skill (only needing 2 snipes for an infestor, shift queing infested terrans to make it that fast etc).
I would ask Blizzard first about this macro, but in general macros are reportable as they are 3rd party tools. And i don't think they would be happy about their snipe being used perfectly by low levels.
On February 06 2012 21:17 FeyFey wrote: haha cool trick, alot of people use the scroll wheel if they have to spam one button, it actually was implented in a game i play hmm around 5 years ago. Anyway i consider macros as worse as botting and unless something is supported by the game itself it shouldn't be used as it will shift benefits to the player using it. Also if this becomes standard snipe and infested terrans will get a delay, which will result good player not being able to get the last out of the skill (only needing 2 snipes for an infestor, shift queing infested terrans to make it that fast etc).
I would ask Blizzard first about this macro, but in general macros are reportable as they are 3rd party tools. And i don't think they would be happy about their snipe being used perfectly by low levels.
It's not a macro since it's a direct 1-to-1 key binding. I'm 100% sure this would be allowed by Blizzard and in important tournaments such as the GSL.
On February 06 2012 20:13 stickyhands wrote: interesting, its exactly what a CS 1.6 russian team discovered several years ago (it was usefull with the dual guns). they used it in some big tournament, and then all the tournaments updated their rules to forbid this.
edit: more recently it was used to duck jump very fast and move as fast as running without any noise (been banned too to bind crouch to the mouse wheel)
so in both case tournaments did update their rules, lets see what happen in sc2
oh i hated this, it was insanely hard to get headshot hitbox on crouch jumps of the corner TT
Metagame of cs1.6 !
Thats pretty much how scroll wheel works, it was really hard to reproduce the same triggers on keyboard, for example i never saw anyone doing proper bunny hops in cs 1.6 using spacebars, but it was doable on wheel.
Hi, Just a few noob questions: For snipe: - how would you prevent overkill (do you really have so much control on how much you spam the wheel?) - how are you sure that spamming snipe over a ball of broodlords/lings would only snipe the broods and no lings?
For IT: - what would a real-life (well, "in game") situation be, where you'd need to spam all the IT in one place like in the OP clip? I'm thinking that you can already do the move-queueIT-move trick for harassing with burrowed infestors anyway. And in head to head battles I think you need a little more control on where you spawn the eggs.
On February 06 2012 21:17 FeyFey wrote: haha cool trick, alot of people use the scroll wheel if they have to spam one button, it actually was implented in a game i play hmm around 5 years ago. Anyway i consider macros as worse as botting and unless something is supported by the game itself it shouldn't be used as it will shift benefits to the player using it. Also if this becomes standard snipe and infested terrans will get a delay, which will result good player not being able to get the last out of the skill (only needing 2 snipes for an infestor, shift queing infested terrans to make it that fast etc).
I would ask Blizzard first about this macro, but in general macros are reportable as they are 3rd party tools. And i don't think they would be happy about their snipe being used perfectly by low levels.
It's not a macro since it's a direct 1-to-1 key binding. I'm 100% sure this would be allowed by Blizzard and in important tournaments such as the GSL.
discussable (if you click a button one action will be issued, if you move your finger over the mousewheel and back into position around 18 commands will be issued, by one move of course you can argue that its just 1 click issuing 1 order), i won't use it and i won't ask Blizzard about it, i would also not report anyone using it. I would just think pretty low of a person using it. But i am a pretty old type. And rebinding keys to do multiple actions (the mousewheel trick is just one action so not that bad) is done by so many people on the internet already, its to late to stop it, since mouse and keyboard come with software to enable such things. At one point the people that dislike such things become such a minority that it will become standard even in competitive games, so that devs will lose one option to make something hard to use.
From my personal experience though people using macros somehow don't get better, they actually fall back in personal skill which added up by the provided skill from tools, is on the same level as the former skill. Otherwise i couldn't explain how i could stay even with them. I don't mind though going to japan or korea every year for free to the world tournament because the opponents can't use such tools in it haha, and getting beat up by korea and japan there ^^;
Instant spawning infested terrans has always been possible with shift commands. Move command group of infestors, then shift click spawn and they'll all pop just as quickly.
This on the other hand is just sick. Infested terrans and snipes on demand without expending a lot of apm scares me.
Ghost/marine/viking just got even more scary in TvP.
Just played around with it in unit tester. This is SO MUCH fun! Got up to 16k apm with this sniping and spawning infested terrans. Any number of Ultras just vanished instantly :D
Not useful but superfunny: Have you tried that with EMP, storm, Nukes, just for the lols? :D
30 storms instantly on the same location looks ridiculous! Also 100 Nukes in a circle around your ghosts is quite funny too!
On February 06 2012 21:44 moQbara wrote: Hi, Just a few noob questions: For snipe: - how would you prevent overkill (do you really have so much control on how much you spam the wheel?) - how are you sure that spamming snipe over a ball of broodlords/lings would only snipe the broods and no lings?
For IT: - what would a real-life (well, "in game") situation be, where you'd need to spam all the IT in one place like in the OP clip? I'm thinking that you can already do the move-queueIT-move trick for harassing with burrowed infestors anyway. And in head to head battles I think you need a little more control on where you spawn the eggs.
Thanks.
-The ghost lose energy after they have made the shot, if the ghost target dies before while they are casting, they will cancel and lose 0 energy. -Broodlords are flying ontop of the lings so they are very easy to target. Even if u accidently hit a few lings, its not catastrophic.
-When controlling burrowed infestors, you many times want to give the infested terran command just when u see the siegetanks (in battle) so queueing isnt so great. Accuracy is not all that important.
On February 06 2012 21:17 FeyFey wrote: haha cool trick, alot of people use the scroll wheel if they have to spam one button, it actually was implented in a game i play hmm around 5 years ago. Anyway i consider macros as worse as botting and unless something is supported by the game itself it shouldn't be used as it will shift benefits to the player using it. Also if this becomes standard snipe and infested terrans will get a delay, which will result good player not being able to get the last out of the skill (only needing 2 snipes for an infestor, shift queing infested terrans to make it that fast etc).
I would ask Blizzard first about this macro, but in general macros are reportable as they are 3rd party tools. And i don't think they would be happy about their snipe being used perfectly by low levels.
It's not a macro since it's a direct 1-to-1 key binding. I'm 100% sure this would be allowed by Blizzard and in important tournaments such as the GSL.
discussable (if you click a button one action will be issued, if you move your finger over the mousewheel and back into position around 18 commands will be issued, by one move of course you can argue that its just 1 click issuing 1 order), i won't use it and i won't ask Blizzard about it, i would also not report anyone using it. I would just think pretty low of a person using it. But i am a pretty old type. And rebinding keys to do multiple actions (the mousewheel trick is just one action so not that bad) is done by so many people on the internet already, its to late to stop it, since mouse and keyboard come with software to enable such things. At one point the people that dislike such things become such a minority that it will become standard even in competitive games, so that devs will lose one option to make something hard to use.
I agree. You can't really call it a "direct 1-to-1 key binding", because the mouse wheel is not a "key". Pressing a key is a bit different than scrolling one tick on the mouse wheel, and personally I think it's pretty lame if you can use snipes to insta-giv ultralisks without having to click furiously to do so. Makes mass-sniping a lot less impressive, and just feels kinda like cheating to me. Just my opinion...
Imo not good for any area of effect spell since it is hard to control. Best used for spam click spells i.e. snipe, feedback, IT, gravitron beam, transfuse, auto turret(?)
Can anybody clarify if this is legal, as I'm not sure if blizzard would deem this as a cheat?
It would be legal in-game, because it's pretty much undetectable, and you aren't using 3rd party software.
Whether tournaments allow it is a different story.
You ARE using 3rd party software (whether it be the one linked in OP or driver software which come with the mouse). It's just that the game client won't be able to detect that you've used a 3rd party software to rebind your mouse scroll (well until you see an ultra dying to snipes in less than 2 seconds or 40 infested terrans spawning at once.)
On February 07 2012 00:49 Kloster wrote: Did a follow up on the Ghost snipe. Ghost sniper round
I don't see how this is balanced. In that video without using scroll wheel it took 10secs to kill ultras, with the scroll wheel it took just 3secs. With more ghosts you'll be effectively one shotting broods/ultras.
Third party programs and macros are not allowed as stated in the TOS.
Single key binds are accepted however on SC2 but you must use the ingame program and it only lets you bind one key to one action.
For example, you can have Mouse Up as left click and mouse down replacing snipe for ghosts or something along the line of that, but not anything else besdies that.
How do you do it!? I am in unit tester but i can't really get it right. Do i need to click left click like a madman? cause if i do. this isnt really faster than holding down r. So please tell me what i am supposed to do? WHen to click shift and etc.. Pissing me off ... And i can't scrol on TL normally now
That... is insane o.O The sniping is especially ridiculous, I mean, lategame TvZ is pretty silly as it is, with the sheer power of mass Ghosts, I can only imagine how strong it would be with insta-snipes
On February 07 2012 02:03 ShoWTimE94 wrote: doing multiple things with one key is a macro and thats pretty much what this thread is about. so... no, this shouldnt be allowed.
this isnt macro, since it just changes wheel from scroll to left click.
On February 07 2012 02:04 robih wrote: next GSL champ is gonna be a terran
Well that's a safe bet
Question: Can you bind as many buttons as you want to the same key? In other words, can I choose to have my left mouse button, my wheel scroll-up, and even a few different keyboard keys to all have the same function (e.g. left mouse button)? (Similarly, could I re-bind my keyboard so that five different letters are all hotkeys for Sentry instead of just "E"?) Or can you only re-bind one button to one other button?
P.S.- The ghost snipe re-bind looks beastly (and legal).
This has been done in FPSs for quite a while, I'm actually surprised nobody thought of it before, although you don't need third-party software in an FPS.
Interesting find, which'll probably be fixed for HotS at the very least
On February 07 2012 02:10 AveSharia wrote: LOL @ all the zergs crying IMBA over mouse-wheel snipe.
You can take away my mousewheel snipe when I can take away you holding down a key to spawn lings.
Does your scroll kind of get "stuck" if you over "click" with scroll button? Like i tried it and after I'm done sniping, my left click is still going because the extra scrolls are still registering. I don't know if that's common or not.
On February 06 2012 16:03 ticklishmusic wrote: Zerg T3 is a joke with this.
Man, they nerfed ghosts slightly and then THIS happens?
The ghost cost change was a terran buff, not a nerf
The cost change was a "buff" to the race IMO (though I don't know if Terran spends that much gas w/ non-mech compositions anyways), but that EMP radius decrease was most definitely a nerf.
On February 07 2012 02:03 ShoWTimE94 wrote: doing multiple things with one key is a macro and thats pretty much what this thread is about. so... no, this shouldnt be allowed.
this isnt macro, since it just changes wheel from scroll to left click.
it changes wheel up and down to left click, right? so 2 actions into 1.
This will never be allowed in competitions since it breaks late game TvZ. People are already claiming snipe is broken even when you can't use the scroll wheel trick.
That's ridiculous, sick find! Reminds me of Baretta's in CS, scroll wheel. Will get nerfed, problem is, maybe this will take as long as the phoenix lift bug Oo
thats sick just tried the ghost snipe, but when i change click to the mouse wheel sometimes unit selection acts really weird thats why i probably wont use it
In my opinion, this highlights issues with Snipe as a spell, not with the mouse wheel input. If a player is able to instantly wipe out extremely expensive units while taking no damage just by being able to click really fast, and there's essentially nothing the other player can do to prevent this, then that represents an issue with the game mechanics. I mean, you can already sort of do this if you use vision ahead of time to queue up these snipes and the enemy doesn't have the ability to change the battle situation quickly enough (or lacks detection). It takes a couple extra seconds, but wiping out that huge chunk of expensive units is absolutely worth the time.
In other words, if Snipe was only balanced around thinking players couldn't do something as brainless as clicking on one target really fast, then Blizzard absolutely failed in their design of the spell. I can get up to 11.5 clicks per second if I use a specific grip, so I'd say it would have been inevitable for someone to eventually start doing something close to this in tournaments anyway.
I wouldn't really say this is a big deal with infested terrans as you are usually better off queuing the egg spam anyway (which makes it simultaneous) so that you have time to synch up the actions of your other army groups as the eggs hatch (since you usually want to wait for the eggs to hatch or your real units will be targeted first). It's only useful for getting back to other tasks slightly more quickly or for panic eggs off a doomed infestor.
On February 07 2012 02:36 Doodsmack wrote: Really hope Blizzard nerfs this soon.
Blizzard can't do anything about this as the user isn't changing anything in game, but changing mouse drivers instead by swapping left click with scroll. This wouldn't warrant them to directly nerf the ghost - they could only go as far declaring this as being an illegal exploit and ban anyone that uses it.
On February 07 2012 02:43 RoKetha wrote: In my opinion, this highlights issues with Snipe as a spell, not with the mouse wheel input. If a player is able to instantly wipe out extremely expensive units while taking no damage just by being able to click really fast, and there's essentially nothing the other player can do to prevent this, then that represents an issue with the game mechanics. I mean, you can already sort of do this if you use vision ahead of time to queue up these snipes and the enemy doesn't have the ability to change the battle situation quickly enough (or lacks detection). It takes a couple extra seconds, but wiping out that huge chunk of expensive units is absolutely worth the time.
In other words, if Snipe was only balanced around thinking players couldn't do something as brainless as clicking on one target really fast, then Blizzard absolutely failed in their design of the spell. I can get up to 11.5 clicks per second if I use a specific grip, so I'd say it would have been inevitable for someone to eventually start doing something close to this in tournaments anyway.
I wouldn't really say this is a big deal with infested terrans as you are usually better off queuing the egg spam anyway (which makes it simultaneous) so that you have time to synch up the actions of your other army groups as the eggs hatch (since you usually want to wait for the eggs to hatch or your real units will be targeted first). It's only useful for getting back to other tasks slightly more quickly or for panic eggs off a doomed infestor.
I think a 1 second c/d or something similar would fix this issue. It would force terran to have a critical mass of ghosts to snipe big units. Also a feedback need a range buff.
On February 07 2012 02:49 SpeaKEaSY wrote: I hope Blizzard doesn't give Snipe a cooldown as a result of this
I doubt it. Gotta remember that he had 13 Ghosts in that video against like 4 Ultras, so there really wasn't a noticeable 'pause' in the firing. I tried it out with 1 ghost against 3 Ultras, and there still is a pretty big pause between rounds. A 0.5-1.0 second delay would be reasonable though.
Someone may have already mentioned it, but snipe already has a "cooldown" between shots. It's not that there's one ghost shooting 8 shots at the same time - it's that the scroll wheel allows 8 ghosts to snipe simultaneously (edit: near simultaneously, if you scroll fast enough) .
I suggest anyone do does this micro first practice it with just the left mouse button so they get an idea of when it is appropriate to use shift and when to just hold the hotkey.
used to do the same thing for firing certain guns faster in fps hardly a hack but kinda pointless to use as you would come to rely on it too much to the point that when you go to a tourney can't dl shit on the tournament computers your kinda screwed
Actually, i find it better with Infestor than Ghost after testing it. Because this trick only allow ghost to snipe all at once, not unloading all their snipe energy in one shot. But for Infestors and Infested terran, an infestor can launch their 8 ITs instantly.
3d part program used to change keybinds. I very much doubt that Blizzard will look kindly on this. Banable offense surely. There is a reason why you cant bind the scroll in the game for the set keys.
I can see them putting a 1 second/0.5 second cool down on snipe/infested Terrans because of this, it's simply not balanced to be able to deal that much damage instantly.
On February 07 2012 03:10 Pipeline wrote: 3d part program used to change keybinds. I very much doubt that Blizzard will look kindly on this. Banable offense surely. There is a reason why you cant bind the scroll in the game for the set keys.
It's been mentioned a lot of times in the thread that this program does a 1:1 rebinding. For example, if you were to take the razer StarCraft II products, you could do exactly the same thing.
If anything here was banable, then anyone using a custom hotkey setup should also be banned.
On February 07 2012 02:03 ShoWTimE94 wrote: doing multiple things with one key is a macro and thats pretty much what this thread is about. so... no, this shouldnt be allowed.
this isnt macro, since it just changes wheel from scroll to left click.
it changes wheel up and down to left click, right? so 2 actions into 1.
It changes each of the two separate actions into another separate action for each. The fact that these two separate actions happen to be for the same thing (left click) is of no consequence.
To the ones saying this is illegal because you rebind keys, is it also illegal to swap left/right mousebutton for a lefthanded person or use a mouse with more than 2 buttons + scrollwheel?
FUCK ghosts are already WAY to good against Zerg hive tech, now they're a direct overwhelming counter.
Just... fuck.
EDIT:
On February 07 2012 03:11 Pessle wrote: I can see them putting a 1 second/0.5 second cool down on snipe/infested Terrans because of this, it's simply not balanced to be able to deal that much damage instantly.
On February 07 2012 03:11 Pessle wrote: I can see them putting a 1 second/0.5 second cool down on snipe/infested Terrans because of this, it's simply not balanced to be able to deal that much damage instantly.
Would not change anything for Ghost. The power is in the fact that all ghost snipe at the same time. When you snipe normaly with the normal way, only one ghost snipe each time you click.
Although not as dazzling as the Snipe, this can also be used for de-selecting workers in the wire-frame, which I do when I transfer workers. Just mouse-over the 7th worker after right clicking a bunch to the minerals, right click on a gas, mouseover the 4th of the remaining six, and send the remaining 3 to the other gas. It's faster than clicking three times twice.
Here's a screenshot I posted earlier in the thread with infested terrans, in case people missed it.
On February 07 2012 03:03 DeltruS wrote: Hey guys. Here's a quick guide on how to make this mouse keybinding only take effect in SC2, windowed or fullscreen.
I suggest anyone do does this micro first practice it with just the left mouse button so they get an idea of when it is appropriate to use shift and when to just hold the hotkey.
You really are doing the community a disservice by posting a guide like this. If this exploit can't be nerfed and isn't a bannable offense, it's really up to the honor of each individual player to refrain from using it given that it's undeniably imbalanced. If you use this trick to snipe or spawn IT then you are giving yourself an unfair advantage that wasn't intended by the game designers. You should be more concerned with improving as a player and playing fair games than getting wins through unfair methods.
Usually in games you see ghosts vs broodlord tech and usually works quite well. But this, this is going to raise that effectiveness to the roof, will be very strong if allowed in tournaments.
I hope it get fixed, seems sooooo OP for snipe. But i think adding 2s cooldown to snipe would kill the spell and it wouldnt really fx the problem (you still could cast 12 insta snipes with 12 ghosts)
On February 07 2012 03:03 DeltruS wrote: Hey guys. Here's a quick guide on how to make this mouse keybinding only take effect in SC2, windowed or fullscreen.
I suggest anyone do does this micro first practice it with just the left mouse button so they get an idea of when it is appropriate to use shift and when to just hold the hotkey.
You really are doing the community a disservice by posting a guide like this. If this exploit can't be nerfed and isn't a bannable offense, it's really up to the honor of each individual player to refrain from using it given that it's undeniably imbalanced. If you use this trick to snipe or spawn IT then you are giving yourself an unfair advantage that wasn't intended by the game designers. You should be more concerned with improving as a player and playing fair games than getting wins through unfair methods.
Once something is out there you can't put it back in the box. Do you think we could just silence something like this to death and prevent people from knowing about it? (it will be our little secret *nods*) By publicizing it you equalize the playing field and raise awareness so that everyone can decide for themselves whether to use it.
Also, who are you to decide when something is 'undeniably imbalanced'? There are lots of tricks out there, why should this one not be allowed to use? If it is somehow broken then tournaments will simply ban it, no need to root it out beforehand.
On February 06 2012 14:07 Diony wrote: 1. You really have no solid detailed instructions on what you did for this to happen.
2. I think this may be a "hack" if it requires a 3rd party program to do.
In regards to your second point, I think it's legal. It requires keystrokes for every action, and a sequence of keystrokes is not automatically started by only one action.
This is really handy for sending groups of 20 lings to far away expansions. That was really time consuming before. I am experimenting to see if I can somehow make a new form of marine splitting / bane micro / any type of imba micro.
So far, the results of marine splitting have been ok but not better than normal micro. This is really good for splitting up groups of 10 marines into groups of 3 ish, but it isn't good for splitting up large numbers of marines.
On February 07 2012 03:10 Pipeline wrote: 3d part program used to change keybinds. I very much doubt that Blizzard will look kindly on this. Banable offense surely. There is a reason why you cant bind the scroll in the game for the set keys.
It's been mentioned a lot of times in the thread that this program does a 1:1 rebinding. For example, if you were to take the razer StarCraft II products, you could do exactly the same thing.
If anything here was banable, then anyone using a custom hotkey setup should also be banned.
how is this supposed to be a 1:1 rebind when you can reach 20k apm with it?
On February 07 2012 03:10 Pipeline wrote: 3d part program used to change keybinds. I very much doubt that Blizzard will look kindly on this. Banable offense surely. There is a reason why you cant bind the scroll in the game for the set keys.
It's been mentioned a lot of times in the thread that this program does a 1:1 rebinding. For example, if you were to take the razer StarCraft II products, you could do exactly the same thing.
If anything here was banable, then anyone using a custom hotkey setup should also be banned.
how is this supposed to be a 1:1 rebind when you can reach 20k apm with it?
because you can scroll way faster than you can click.
On February 07 2012 03:10 Pipeline wrote: 3d part program used to change keybinds. I very much doubt that Blizzard will look kindly on this. Banable offense surely. There is a reason why you cant bind the scroll in the game for the set keys.
It's been mentioned a lot of times in the thread that this program does a 1:1 rebinding. For example, if you were to take the razer StarCraft II products, you could do exactly the same thing.
If anything here was banable, then anyone using a custom hotkey setup should also be banned.
how is this supposed to be a 1:1 rebind when you can reach 20k apm with it?
Scrolling is ridiculously much faster than clicking, even if you're Flash or something like that. It is a 1:1 rebind just you have it easier to reach a higher number with one of them.
I believe it was coLgoswser who told me about rebinding scroll to click several months ago. He said its also d useful to split of zerglings from the main group when getting dropped etc. Dont know if he still uses it nor if he uses it in tournaments.
This is going to make ghosts much better against zealots. Some players (at least Thorzain) were already favoring spending their APM on sniping instead of kiting against chargelots. With this trick, they'll be able to get their snipes off quickly enough to snipe AND kite effectively. It's going to be broken.
On February 07 2012 04:06 disco wrote: I believe it was coLgoswser who told me about rebinding scroll to click several months ago. He said its also d useful to split of zerglings from the main group when getting dropped etc. Dont know if he still uses it nor if he uses it in tournaments.
That sounds like a good use. Hover over the first portrait when you have a ton of units selected and give the wheel a scroll and it should deselect a bunch of them while still leaving you with the rest selected.
On February 07 2012 04:09 kcdc wrote: This is going to make ghosts much better against zealots. Some players (at least Thorzain) were already favoring spending their APM on sniping instead of kiting against chargelots. With this trick, they'll be able to get their snipes off quickly enough to snipe AND kite effectively. It's going to be broken.
On February 07 2012 04:06 disco wrote: I believe it was coLgoswser who told me about rebinding scroll to click several months ago. He said its also d useful to split of zerglings from the main group when getting dropped etc. Dont know if he still uses it nor if he uses it in tournaments.
That sounds like a good use. Hover over the first portrait when you have a ton of units selected and give the wheel a scroll and it should deselect a bunch of them while still leaving you with the rest selected.
Not really that useful because you can just unbox a bunch of them from your group just as easily though.
On February 06 2012 14:01 zylog wrote: Yeah I experimented with this type of setting as well. For a bit more description if you set one of your mouse buttons to spam the left click repeatedly (similar to how holding down a keyboard button works) stuff like infested terran spam can be done more quickly. Probably most useful when you have some infestors deep in enemy territory that you want to launch a counter attack in the midst of another battle.
For terran it allows ghosts to instagib T3 zerg units
I am pretty sure command macros like that are illeagal in sc2.
They're against the Blizzard terms of use. All I know is that I'm definitely going to try this out with Ghosts.
On February 07 2012 03:03 DeltruS wrote: Hey guys. Here's a quick guide on how to make this mouse keybinding only take effect in SC2, windowed or fullscreen.
I suggest anyone do does this micro first practice it with just the left mouse button so they get an idea of when it is appropriate to use shift and when to just hold the hotkey.
You really are doing the community a disservice by posting a guide like this. If this exploit can't be nerfed and isn't a bannable offense, it's really up to the honor of each individual player to refrain from using it given that it's undeniably imbalanced. If you use this trick to snipe or spawn IT then you are giving yourself an unfair advantage that wasn't intended by the game designers. You should be more concerned with improving as a player and playing fair games than getting wins through unfair methods.
Once something is out there you can't put it back in the box. Do you think we could just silence something like this to death and prevent people from knowing about it? (it will be our little secret *nods*) By publicizing it you equalize the playing field and raise awareness so that everyone can decide for themselves whether to use it.
Also, who are you to decide when something is 'undeniably imbalanced'? There are lots of tricks out there, why should this one not be allowed to use? If it is somehow broken then tournaments will simply ban it, no need to root it out beforehand.
It's not a matter of keeping a secret, it's a matter of not making it easier for everyone to do. Since it does in fact give the user an unfair advantage, it's wrong to distribute an easy method to the masses because you are increasing the number of people giving themselves an unfair advantage. Better for less people to know how to do it because then you have less people doing it.
The real point here is that the only people who will use this are those who are desperate to get wins on the ladder at all costs. Plain and simple you're modifying your race in a way that circumvents the intended game balance. And no I'm not unilaterally deciding what's imbalanced, I'm simply observing a simple fact. Anyone with a brain can look at those videos and recognize that it's imbalanced.
Because I'm a bit of a dick at times I have done this in FPS games. Makes your pistol pretty good - especially when you have a mouse with a scroll step release (no idea what they're really called) so the mouse wheel just spins freely like the G500.
On February 07 2012 04:09 kcdc wrote: This is going to make ghosts much better against zealots. Some players (at least Thorzain) were already favoring spending their APM on sniping instead of kiting against chargelots. With this trick, they'll be able to get their snipes off quickly enough to snipe AND kite effectively. It's going to be broken.
Well, ghosts are too slow to kite, and regular mouse clicks are already quick enough to snipe templar. I don't think this will affect PvT much. It's much more devastating to Zerg.
I don't know about sniping zealots. You would require a lot of ghosts, with marauders to slow down the zealots. The answer to this imo is more zealots, and with warp ins, the effective number of zealots goes up. It could lead to a stylistic divide within terrans, with those favouring kiting vis a vis those favouring snipes.
PS: Vs zerg, a handful of ghosts would be more powerful than they are now.
On February 07 2012 04:29 chestnutcc wrote: This is not a macro.
I don't know about sniping zealots. You would require a lot of ghosts, with marauders to slow down the zealots. The answer to this imo is more zealots, and with warp ins, the effective number of zealots goes up. It could lead to a stylistic divide within terrans, with those favouring kiting vis a vis those favouring snipes.
PS: Vs zerg, a handful of ghosts would be more powerful than they are now.
I have really been noticign that the super late game Ghost/Marauder/Medivac/Viking with composition seems to be the army of choice vs the protoss deathaball. It seems they dont even want marines because they arent worth the PSI.
This new snipe ability could certainly provide for some entertaining matches!
Nice find, and yea to all people that claims this is cheating, this is just binding legal actions to other keys so there is nothing illegal about it. Blizz prolly has to set a internal cooldown in the abilities, if this poses a problem which we don't know yet.
About the legal or not stuff... this reminds me of Counter-Strike 1.6.
There is something called "bunny hop". It consists in jumping repeatedly right after hitting the floor, and only using strafe keys ("A" and "D"), gaining extra velocity per jump, and making it harder for enemies to shoot you. It's nearly impossible to do that using the space bar due to it's difficult timing.
So players tried to figure out something to repeatedly press the space bar on an insanely high speed. And the only solution was to make a macro. But every kind of macro is illegal, so here is what they game up with:
Don't use the space bar anymore. Now the jumping command is your mouse scroll wheel pointing up. Players could do that by typing into the console: "bind mwheelup +jump; wait; -jump"
The result is that players no longer need to worry about the space bar, and will ALWAYS hit the bunny hop. Just spam the wheel on the direction you assigned and use your strafe keys.
There is also something similar with the "duck" command. If you press it and release it really quick, your model will WTFSEIZUREJUMP for a sec. Also making it harder for enemies to shoot you, with the bonus of MAKING NO SOUND ON MOVEMENT AT ALL! The command was "bind mwheeldown +duck; wait; -duck"
So yeah. What happened? They banned it.
Yes, yes. It is an in-game command, but is considered as an exploit for any championship or tournament league. Anything the player did related to it would result in a ban.
Anyway... this new find is made outside of the game... it's not a macro, but it is definitely something that changes the gameplay a lot. I don't think Blizzard can ban people by using it, but major tournaments definitely can.
On February 07 2012 04:09 kcdc wrote: This is going to make ghosts much better against zealots. Some players (at least Thorzain) were already favoring spending their APM on sniping instead of kiting against chargelots. With this trick, they'll be able to get their snipes off quickly enough to snipe AND kite effectively. It's going to be broken.
Well, ghosts are too slow to kite, and regular mouse clicks are already quick enough to snipe templar. I don't think this will affect PvT much. It's much more devastating to Zerg.
I'm talking about sniping zealots. Normal Terran micro vs chargelots is EMP's then kite. I've seen Thorzain instead use EMP's, then burn his snipe energy on zealots, then kite, but the sniping phase takes long enough that he doesn't get much kiting done. This scroll button snipe micro will allow the snipe phase of that micro chain to be faster, so he'll get more kiting done.
Just watch--if this proves to be legal in tournament play, Terrans will build more ghosts and they'll burn their energy sniping before they start kiting. It will totally shift the metagame.
On February 07 2012 04:06 disco wrote: I believe it was coLgoswser who told me about rebinding scroll to click several months ago. He said its also d useful to split of zerglings from the main group when getting dropped etc. Dont know if he still uses it nor if he uses it in tournaments.
That sounds like a good use. Hover over the first portrait when you have a ton of units selected and give the wheel a scroll and it should deselect a bunch of them while still leaving you with the rest selected.
Not really that useful because you can just unbox a bunch of them from your group just as easily though.
So you stopped using it? I didn't try it 'cause I figured i'd "accidentally" click way too often.
This is already being used in a little less obvious way. Sending your unit to a place and then shift queueing spells has the same effect. Insta infested terran rain you can see quite often, I still haven't seen cloaked ghosts shift queueing mineral lines, and I don't really know why noone is doing it.
Yes, this definitely isn't a simple key re-bind. It will be interesting to see if this has much of an effect on gameplay as a result of this difficulty.
On February 07 2012 04:46 noaziN wrote: About the legal or not stuff... this reminds me of Counter-Strike 1.6.
There is something called "bunny hop". It consists in jumping repeatedly right after hitting the floor, and only using strafe keys ("A" and "D"), gaining extra velocity per jump, and making it harder for enemies to shoot you. It's nearly impossible to do that using the space bar due to it's difficult timing.
So players tried to figure out something to repeatedly press the space bar on an insanely high speed. And the only solution was to make a macro. But every kind of macro is illegal, so here is what they game up with:
Don't use the space bar anymore. Now the jumping command is your mouse scroll wheel pointing up. Players could do that by typing into the console: "bind mwheelup +jump; wait; -jump"
The result is that players no longer need to worry about the space bar, and will ALWAYS hit the bunny hop. Just spam the wheel on the direction you assigned and use your strafe keys.
There is also something similar with the "duck" command. If you press it and release it really quick, your model will WTFSEIZUREJUMP for a sec. Also making it harder for enemies to shoot you, with the bonus of MAKING NO SOUND ON MOVEMENT AT ALL! The command was "bind mwheeldown +duck; wait; -duck"
So yeah. What happened? They banned it.
Yes, yes. It is an in-game command, but is considered as an exploit for any championship or tournament league. Anything the player did related to it would result in a ban.
Anyway... this new find is made outside of the game... it's not a macro, but it is definitely something that changes the gameplay a lot. I don't think Blizzard can ban people by using it, but major tournaments definitely can.
This is what I was going to post. They banned binding duck to mousewheel in CS and it was way less sketchy than this. You could do it thru the regular menu options without the need of configs or drivers and it was still banned. Granted they didn't ban it right away. It was allowed for quite a while after it was discovered and after it as deemed game breaking it was banned; I belive WCG was the first to hit it with the ban-hammer. If it breaks the game (the balance of the game in this case) then it should be banned if it's not patched regardless of how it's achieved, and the fact that it can't be done just changing in-game binds is just ONE of the reasons why it should. I shouldn't be punished because I don't use the drivers my mouse comes with or not having a mouse that even with drivers allows me to. Then again imagine if it was allowed in tournaments because SteelSeries and Razer worked behind curtains and forced tournaments to allow it so people had to buy their stuff Wuahahaha >
This is an amazing idea. You could create a new style of mouse around this. It will either be banned or snipe will be given a short cool down either way, given how powerful that spell suddenly becomes.
If you simply took the time to get use to a scroll style left click, you could simply adjust your speed for whatever you're doing. It may even be better on your fingers to reduce RSI.
If allowed... BW SCV micro could be easier with this too (SCV's attack faster than their animation, so rebind wheel to right click to spam attack)
Erm there are thousands of things in SC2 to make it less micro intensive. Blizzard designed it like that.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure there is a small cooldown on snipe anyway, way less than a second, but about the same as a pro click speed. If you shift queue snipes they don't happen instantly, there is a small gap between each one.
On February 07 2012 05:25 Kukaracha wrote: I find that this insanely favours high-level Terrans. :p Ghosts are already amazing, now BLs are a non-issue, and so are Ultras.
This is a classic example of an overgenerlization. The ghosts do not receive more energy from using this method, and may even waste snipes using this method as the snipes occur ALL AT ONCE.
In the video, 5 ghosts were used to snipe the ultralisk but this was the perfect amount TO KILL the ultralisk. The usual method would not waste any snipes. The adjusted method would waste snipe energy and so you would still have to micro the right amount of ghosts using this method.
On February 07 2012 05:50 Willzzz wrote: Erm there are thousands of things in SC2 to make it less micro intensive. Blizzard designed it like that.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure there is a small cooldown on snipe anyway, way less than a second, but about the same as a pro click speed. If you shift queue snipes they don't happen instantly, there is a small gap between each one.
Might be a cool down but when you have like 6+ ghosts the cool down doesn;t play a part =/
Lets put it this way.. DRG gets like 15 Blords... terrran gets around 10+ ghosts.. Boom dead in like 10 seconds the zerg will not be able to kill them fast enough because the Ghosts Sniper have Sick range and now with his sick speed =/
The infestor problem is not as bad but the sniper is alot worse
On February 07 2012 05:49 mhsMILKe wrote: Can also be used for some sick feedbacks. :D
I don't understand how it helps with feedback since we already have smartcasting... Snipe in contrast can be cast multiple times on a single unit and be useful. Unlike feedback more than one per unit is just a waste. Seeing as this only spams the left click faster I don't see how its going to be faster than you can click on the indvidual units....
hmm.. I don't think I can call this legit if you can't rebind it that was ingame. I won't use it - but I'm protoss, so it's relatively useless for me anyway
On February 07 2012 05:25 Kukaracha wrote: I find that this insanely favours high-level Terrans. :p Ghosts are already amazing, now BLs are a non-issue, and so are Ultras.
This is a classic example of an overgenerlization. The ghosts do not receive more energy from using this method, and may even waste snipes using this method as the snipes occur ALL AT ONCE.
In the video, 5 ghosts were used to snipe the ultralisk but this was the perfect amount TO KILL the ultralisk. The usual method would not waste any snipes. The adjusted method would waste snipe energy and so you would still have to micro the right amount of ghosts using this method.
This is a classic example of not knowing what your talking about. This way doesn't waste any snipes, you don't have to micro it right. Even with scroll wheel they are not cast all at once, they are just cast quickly one after the other. As soon as the unit being sniped dies, ghosts aren't using extra energy. For example, if you have 20 ghosts and scroll wheel snipe an ultra its not like 20 snipes or 40 snipes or whatever will just happen, the number that will happen is the exact number needed to kill everything you spam scroll wheel on.
Protoss can warp-in TONS of units and VERY FAST, with that scroll-wheel rebind.
hmm.. I don't think I can call this legit if you can't rebind it that was ingame. I won't use it - but I'm protoss, so it's relatively useless for me anyway
Everything, that is under rule "One button - one thing - one hotkey", is legit.
If you can rebind shift in windows and will use rebinded Shift in any application, like Word or Excel, why not in SC2? It's not increases your chances to get win, it's not increases number of infested terrans, etc
On February 07 2012 04:54 Tomazi wrote: It's not a simple keybind. The scroll wheel isn't a key.
But you can get the same effect (actually better) by rebinding an actual key on your keyboard to left-click, instead of the scroll wheel. That's how I got the 20k APM shown earlier.
On February 07 2012 05:25 Kukaracha wrote: I find that this insanely favours high-level Terrans. :p Ghosts are already amazing, now BLs are a non-issue, and so are Ultras.
This is a classic example of an overgenerlization. The ghosts do not receive more energy from using this method, and may even waste snipes using this method as the snipes occur ALL AT ONCE.
In the video, 5 ghosts were used to snipe the ultralisk but this was the perfect amount TO KILL the ultralisk. The usual method would not waste any snipes. The adjusted method would waste snipe energy and so you would still have to micro the right amount of ghosts using this method.
This is a classic example of not knowing what your talking about. This way doesn't waste any snipes, you don't have to micro it right. Even with scroll wheel they are not cast all at once, they are just cast quickly one after the other. As soon as the unit being sniped dies, ghosts aren't using extra energy. For example, if you have 20 ghosts and scroll wheel snipe an ultra its not like 20 snipes or 40 snipes or whatever will just happen, the number that will happen is the exact number needed to kill everything you spam scroll wheel on.
I believe you misunderstand him. It takes 11 snipes to do 495 damage vs an ultralisk. That means the 12th snipe has 40 wasted damage. It is best to just let the ghost attack once rather than use that last snipe.
People didn't know about this? Been done since early CoD and CS days and subsequently banned. Heck, Valve even fixed it with the pistols in TF2.
I feel like this exposes the design flaw in snipe rather than an exploit that needs to be fixed. The fact that snipe is gimmicky whether you hold shift or hold fire just makes this all the more attractive.
The problem with that is, that if Blizzard puts a higher cooldown on snipe, every terran will HAVE TO use that scroll method in order to still use snipe. Someone who doesnt use this method will have kinda useless ghosts if they get a higher cooldown.
Maybe it isn't a hack legally. But it has the same effect as a hack. It will totally break the game. Just banning it from tourneys would also suck because you can't just abandon any kind of online play such as ladder, weekly cups, online qualifiers, etc..
On February 07 2012 06:28 FaKeSC2 wrote: The problem with that is, that if Blizzard puts a higher cooldown on snipe, every terran will HAVE TO use that scroll method in order to still use snipe. Someone who doesnt use this method will have kinda useless ghosts if they get a higher cooldown.
Maybe it isn't a hack legally. But it has the same effect as a hack. It will totally break the game. Just banning it from tourneys would also suck because you can't just abandon any kind of online play such as ladder, weekly cups, online qualifiers, etc..
not necessarily. if they nerf the cooldown to a speed that only the fastest click spamming could accomodate, it would be a level playing field
On February 07 2012 05:25 Kukaracha wrote: I find that this insanely favours high-level Terrans. :p Ghosts are already amazing, now BLs are a non-issue, and so are Ultras.
This is a classic example of an overgenerlization. The ghosts do not receive more energy from using this method, and may even waste snipes using this method as the snipes occur ALL AT ONCE.
In the video, 5 ghosts were used to snipe the ultralisk but this was the perfect amount TO KILL the ultralisk. The usual method would not waste any snipes. The adjusted method would waste snipe energy and so you would still have to micro the right amount of ghosts using this method.
This is a classic example of not knowing what your talking about. This way doesn't waste any snipes, you don't have to micro it right. Even with scroll wheel they are not cast all at once, they are just cast quickly one after the other. As soon as the unit being sniped dies, ghosts aren't using extra energy. For example, if you have 20 ghosts and scroll wheel snipe an ultra its not like 20 snipes or 40 snipes or whatever will just happen, the number that will happen is the exact number needed to kill everything you spam scroll wheel on.
I believe you misunderstand him. It takes 11 snipes to do 495 damage vs an ultralisk. That means the 12th snipe has 40 wasted damage. It is best to just let the ghost attack once rather than use that last snipe.
You can't do that without breaking the shift queue, since fast-snipe requires the ghosts to be on hold-fire mode. If not, an attack command gets in the queue and you have to click manually again.
Out of 11 ghosts, one snipe lost per ultralisk is a small price to pay to kill every single one of them before they actually reach your army.
You also forget that Marauders or Tanks or Marines are likely to be shooting at the Ultra, dealing those 45 points of damage anyway.
On February 07 2012 06:28 FaKeSC2 wrote: The problem with that is, that if Blizzard puts a higher cooldown on snipe, every terran will HAVE TO use that scroll method in order to still use snipe. Someone who doesnt use this method will have kinda useless ghosts if they get a higher cooldown.
Maybe it isn't a hack legally. But it has the same effect as a hack. It will totally break the game. Just banning it from tourneys would also suck because you can't just abandon any kind of online play such as ladder, weekly cups, online qualifiers, etc..
not necessarily. if they nerf the cooldown to a speed that only the fastest click spamming could accomodate, it would be a level playing field
So then every gold player would have the same speed by scrolling his wheel as the pro who trains weeks and months and years to get the fastest possible sniping? Doesn't sound fair to me. If this stays legal/allowed/whatever, everyone will use it in order to have an equal playing field. And that sucks because you shouldn't require third party programs and some weird game settings in order to play the game.
For Christ's sake: Scroll jumping was never banned in CS! Duck jumping was a bug in the game engine, which was also later exploited to be able to jump from any height and take no damage. You didn't need to scroll to do it, you could do it by tapping too.
Other uses(?): Mineral stacking, just bind the up key to right click Worker harass: If you drop zealots into a mineral line, you can quickly shift click all the scvs to prevent the zealots from wandering away to nearby queens, spines, marines etc Gravitron Beam Queuing attack move commands or patrol movements (I find this an easier way than using the minimap and mouse scrolling about the screen)
I just tried this in a unit tester map, and then checked the replay. 3 - 8 000 apm as I spam up Infested Terrans. It's just not humanly possible to do without this thing, and I consider it a cheat for sure. As such, I won't use it.
Same thing for snipe really. When I face Terrans in the lategame I usually Transfuse my Broodlords, now it'll be almost impossible to do versus someone who uses this. >_>
I also tried with Feedback vs my friend stacking up Banshees, just for fun. 200/200 Banshee disappeared in a matter of seconds. We had a good laugh about it, but still, I consider it cheating to use on the ladder etc.
There´s nothing to see here except more Zergs talking about how terran is Overpowered ... This is not game-breaking and probably lots of players already use it ..
As for the Zerg i have one thing to say , if you say Terran is Overpowered is SC2 , in BW terran is mega-mega-mega overpowered right? tanks with crazy range , a only mineral unit that as 3 free mines and a Raven that is actually usefull ?
Zergs all call this unbalanced when they can also send like 50 infested terran instant and do 20k apm...
They should also nerf the human brain so players dont think when they play
On February 07 2012 06:58 tapk69 wrote: There´s nothing to see here except more Zergs talking about how terran is Overpowered ... This is not game-breaking and probably lots of players already use it ..
As for the Zerg i have one thing to say , if you say Terran is Overpowered is SC2 , in BW terran is mega-mega-mega overpowered right? tanks with crazy range , a only mineral unit that as 3 free mines and a Raven that is actually usefull ?
Zergs all call this unbalanced when they can also send like 50 infested terran instant and do 20k apm...
They should also nerf the human brain so players dont think when they play
I'm masters terran and I consider this totally game breaking. It should be considered cheating.
On February 07 2012 06:51 IMoperator wrote: i'm not sure i understand this, but if you rebind the left click to scroll doesn't that mess with just normal mouse clicking?
On February 07 2012 06:58 tapk69 wrote: There´s nothing to see here except more Zergs talking about how terran is Overpowered ... This is not game-breaking and probably lots of players already use it ..
As for the Zerg i have one thing to say , if you say Terran is Overpowered is SC2 , in BW terran is mega-mega-mega overpowered right? tanks with crazy range , a only mineral unit that as 3 free mines and a Raven that is actually usefull ?
Zergs all call this unbalanced when they can also send like 50 infested terran instant and do 20k apm...
They should also nerf the human brain so players dont think when they play
No one was seriously talking about terran balance until you came in.
I play terran and I consider that this cheat (because 8000 APM isn't normal) favours the Terran the most.
On February 07 2012 06:51 IMoperator wrote: i'm not sure i understand this, but if you rebind the left click to scroll doesn't that mess with just normal mouse clicking?
Can someone please answer? -_-
No it will not. The scroll will simple work as a extra key.
On February 07 2012 06:51 IMoperator wrote: i'm not sure i understand this, but if you rebind the left click to scroll doesn't that mess with just normal mouse clicking?
Can someone please answer? -_-
No it will not. The scroll will simple work as a extra key.
ok thanks. I'm at school and can't test this out right now, so I thought it would take over as the mouse button. Good to know! Also, I read on the reddit topic that this was actually not very helpful because shift queuing messes with the AI and it's not that helpful. True?
On February 07 2012 06:42 chestnutcc wrote: For Christ's sake: Scroll jumping was never banned in CS! Duck jumping was a bug in the game engine, which was also later exploited to be able to jump from any height and take no damage. You didn't need to scroll to do it, you could do it by tapping too.
Other uses(?): Mineral stacking, just bind the up key to right click Worker harass: If you drop zealots into a mineral line, you can quickly shift click all the scvs to prevent the zealots from wandering away to nearby queens, spines, marines etc Gravitron Beam Queuing attack move commands or patrol movements (I find this an easier way than using the minimap and mouse scrolling about the screen)
On February 07 2012 07:05 kindle139 wrote: since you can't do this in-game without some third party software, it is obviously an unintended consequence and exploitative
On February 07 2012 06:57 GoatSwarm wrote: I just tried this in a unit tester map, and then checked the replay. 3 - 8 000 apm as I spam up Infested Terrans. It's just not humanly possible to do without this thing, and I consider it a cheat for sure. As such, I won't use it.
Same thing for snipe really. When I face Terrans in the lategame I usually Transfuse my Broodlords, now it'll be almost impossible to do versus someone who uses this. >_>
I also tried with Feedback vs my friend stacking up Banshees, just for fun. 200/200 Banshee disappeared in a matter of seconds. We had a good laugh about it, but still, I consider it cheating to use on the ladder etc.
Oh wow, I didn't even think of feedback. Yeah this shit is kind of broken for every race
20k APM may seem excessive but this is the pay blizzard gets for nerfing the apm...
And what about the players that always used this ? Im completely sure that lots of players used this already, even in tourneys , the game was released almost 2 years ago...
Binding keys to the mouse wheel isn't anything new... Gamers have been doing this to games for a long time. I remember I was first aware of it back playing CS 10 years ago. It's always been a cheap and dirty trick.
On February 07 2012 06:42 chestnutcc wrote: For Christ's sake: Scroll jumping was never banned in CS! Duck jumping was a bug in the game engine, which was also later exploited to be able to jump from any height and take no damage. You didn't need to scroll to do it, you could do it by tapping too.
Other uses(?): Mineral stacking, just bind the up key to right click Worker harass: If you drop zealots into a mineral line, you can quickly shift click all the scvs to prevent the zealots from wandering away to nearby queens, spines, marines etc Gravitron Beam Queuing attack move commands or patrol movements (I find this an easier way than using the minimap and mouse scrolling about the screen)
On February 07 2012 06:42 chestnutcc wrote: For Christ's sake: Scroll jumping was never banned in CS! Duck jumping was a bug in the game engine, which was also later exploited to be able to jump from any height and take no damage. You didn't need to scroll to do it, you could do it by tapping too.
Other uses(?): Mineral stacking, just bind the up key to right click Worker harass: If you drop zealots into a mineral line, you can quickly shift click all the scvs to prevent the zealots from wandering away to nearby queens, spines, marines etc Gravitron Beam Queuing attack move commands or patrol movements (I find this an easier way than using the minimap and mouse scrolling about the screen)
Actually lots of tournaments banned binding mousewheel up/down to duck. It took skill to duck jump with key tapping and took no skill with mouse wheel.
Given that Blizzard is actively patching SC2, there should be a way for them to control this as compared to CS 1.6 where tournaments had to put in these rules since Valve was no longer supporting CS 1.6.
On the one hand it's always cool for a game to have little tricks like this that add layers of depth and up the skill ceiling, but on the other hand if it really affects balance it may not be worth it. I think it's hard to tell where this falls, but at first glance it seems like it's the latter and should be addressed by Blizzard.
Edit: I see you're not referring to duck, but to jump. Yes you are correct, binding mousewheel to jump was always legal. The reason is that this did not have as big of an impact on gameplay ever since the bunnyhop nerf patch in 1.6. Also the sound of a player jumping is not affected as it is with crouch hopping/duck jumping.
The point here is simply that there is a precedent for esports tournaments to disallow binding certain keys to mousewheel.
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
Using this for Feedback would be an incredible waste of energy, same with force fields, and everything else that can be over-used.
If your goal is to feedback everything with energy, you will only feedback as much as you can. Only time I can see it being wasteful is early on when you only have a few HT's and they only have medivacs. But against thor/banshee/raven/ghosts...shit is broken.
Yeah just tried this in a real game, I did it very sloppily and wasn't even scrolling the mouse very fast, yet I hit 1000 apm. I'm sure if my opponent saw that he would be pretty displeased or felt cheated in some way.
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
Using this for Feedback would be an incredible waste of energy, same with force fields, and everything else that can be over-used.
If your goal is to feedback everything with energy, you will only feedback as much as you can. Only time I can see it being wasteful is early on when you only have a few HT's and they only have medivacs. But against thor/banshee/raven/ghosts...shit is broken.
he is talking about how you can feedback a unit (not kill it because that doesn't happen unless most units are full on mana) and feedback it a second time (a unit will regen 1 mana) which the second feedback is an utter waste..... This scroll clicking does not really work for feedback unless someone can make a video proving me wrong...
On February 07 2012 06:42 chestnutcc wrote: For Christ's sake: Scroll jumping was never banned in CS! Duck jumping was a bug in the game engine, which was also later exploited to be able to jump from any height and take no damage. You didn't need to scroll to do it, you could do it by tapping too.
Other uses(?): Mineral stacking, just bind the up key to right click Worker harass: If you drop zealots into a mineral line, you can quickly shift click all the scvs to prevent the zealots from wandering away to nearby queens, spines, marines etc Gravitron Beam Queuing attack move commands or patrol movements (I find this an easier way than using the minimap and mouse scrolling about the screen)
Actually lots of tournaments banned binding mousewheel up/down to duck. It took skill to duck jump with key tapping and took no skill with mouse wheel.
Given that Blizzard is actively patching SC2, there should be a way for them to control this as compared to CS 1.6 where tournaments had to put in these rules since Valve was no longer supporting CS 1.6.
On the one hand it's always cool for a game to have little tricks like this that add layers of depth and up the skill ceiling, but on the other hand if it really affects balance it may not be worth it. I think it's hard to tell where this falls, but at first glance it seems like it's the latter and should be addressed by Blizzard.
Edit: I see you're not referring to duck, but to jump. Yes you are correct, binding mousewheel to jump was always legal. The reason is that this did not have as big of an impact on gameplay ever since the bunnyhop nerf patch in 1.6. Also the sound of a player jumping is not affected as it is with crouch hopping/duck jumping.
The point here is simply that there is a precedent for esports tournaments to disallow binding certain keys to mousewheel.
Yes, but in that case, a bug in the engine could be exploited only in that manner. If Blizzard deems the exceedingly high apm this method permits a bug, then this will be illegal. If it is deemed a trick in the engine, it should not.
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
I gotta try that, you could just scroll over their medivacs or infestors and get all of them super easy. Or even if you see a Terran army just hold feedback then scroll over an army with ghosts in it and be guaranteed to hit at least some of the ghosts, even if they're mixed in. Or even over the minimap since you can feedback from the minimap.
This setting + unlocked scrollwheel gear on G9X = all infested terrans out in one tiny motion with your finger (On the G9 and other Logitechs you can unlock the scroll wheel with a button on the bottom so it spins freely and it actually spins for a really long time). It feels super unfair to do it.
Farcical inane children, this is not a hack and pros actually use it. If they have not been banned for it, i would assume its legit. So keep the inane comments to yourself. This program works perfectly BTW.
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
I gotta try that, you could just scroll over their medivacs or infestors and get all of them super easy. Or even if you see a Terran army just hold feedback then scroll over an army with ghosts in it and be guaranteed to hit at least some of the ghosts, even if they're mixed in. Or even over the minimap since you can feedback from the minimap.
This setting + unlocked scrollwheel gear on G9X = all infested terrans out in one tiny motion with your finger (On the G9 and other Logitechs you can unlock the scroll wheel with a button on the bottom so it spins freely and it actually spins for a really long time). It feels super unfair to do it.
Great idea, if you want to use 20 feedbacks on 1 medivac.
On February 07 2012 06:42 chestnutcc wrote: For Christ's sake: Scroll jumping was never banned in CS! Duck jumping was a bug in the game engine, which was also later exploited to be able to jump from any height and take no damage. You didn't need to scroll to do it, you could do it by tapping too.
Other uses(?): Mineral stacking, just bind the up key to right click Worker harass: If you drop zealots into a mineral line, you can quickly shift click all the scvs to prevent the zealots from wandering away to nearby queens, spines, marines etc Gravitron Beam Queuing attack move commands or patrol movements (I find this an easier way than using the minimap and mouse scrolling about the screen)
On the one hand it's always cool for a game to have little tricks like this that add layers of depth and up the skill ceiling, but on the other hand if it really affects balance it may not be worth it. I think it's hard to tell where this falls, but at first glance it seems like it's the latter and should be addressed by Blizzard.
It doesn't "add layers of depth and up the skill ceiling" though. It's literally scrolling up a mouse wheel to spam snipes/Infested Terrans/Feedback/whatever. In fact, I'd argue it lowers the skill ceiling.
Broken, annoying, and now my Ultralisks are going to die so much more quickly to snipes. (
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
I gotta try that, you could just scroll over their medivacs or infestors and get all of them super easy. Or even if you see a Terran army just hold feedback then scroll over an army with ghosts in it and be guaranteed to hit at least some of the ghosts, even if they're mixed in. Or even over the minimap since you can feedback from the minimap.
guess someone never played protoss and talks like he found out something.
this cheat is useless for any spell that protoss has, except may be creating hallucinations, where it isn't needed anyway.
i tried the whole thing in the unit tester this whole thing is huge....ghost snipe is sick, infestor and muta control. toss warp-in is super fast and with a bit practice sentry-forcefields can be set in korean speed and precission. you can even "forcefield" with infested terrans since you have easy control and speed. result was avg apm of 250 and peaks around 1700.
in some way all race benefit from it, but the more important thing is that not everyone is able to use it. and sure, with proper skills there is no need for mouse-wheel rebind, but the ones without the skill can in some way compete now on this level o.0
I thought to snipe people were just holding down the snipe key and then clicking?? thought shift click was pretty crappy due to the ghosts moving to location before shooting ?
On February 07 2012 06:42 chestnutcc wrote: For Christ's sake: Scroll jumping was never banned in CS! Duck jumping was a bug in the game engine, which was also later exploited to be able to jump from any height and take no damage. You didn't need to scroll to do it, you could do it by tapping too.
Other uses(?): Mineral stacking, just bind the up key to right click Worker harass: If you drop zealots into a mineral line, you can quickly shift click all the scvs to prevent the zealots from wandering away to nearby queens, spines, marines etc Gravitron Beam Queuing attack move commands or patrol movements (I find this an easier way than using the minimap and mouse scrolling about the screen)
On the one hand it's always cool for a game to have little tricks like this that add layers of depth and up the skill ceiling, but on the other hand if it really affects balance it may not be worth it. I think it's hard to tell where this falls, but at first glance it seems like it's the latter and should be addressed by Blizzard.
It doesn't "add layers of depth and up the skill ceiling" though. It's literally scrolling up a mouse wheel to spam snipes/Infested Terrans/Feedback/whatever. In fact, I'd argue it lowers the skill ceiling.
Broken, annoying, and now my Ultralisks are going to die so much more quickly to snipes. (
Your first mistake was making ultras to begin with.
It's possible they can cap the mouse clicking limit to under 500apm or so. I think Valve did something similar with TF2 where spamming the jump key was causing the hitboxes to glitch, so they only let you "jump" twice while in mid-air.
This trick isn't any faster than shift-click done properly.
See above demo if you don't believe me, and watch through to 6 mins to see how this works even with feedback, transfuse and snipe.
The scroll click actually looks SLOWER.
This requires you to perform the action before you are there, the mousewheel lets you do it without having to move to a location. If you are playing terran, and are caught off guard when 8 ultras suddenly appear, you can select all of your ghosts and nearly instantly queue up snipes vs having to click on each and ever ultralisk 10 times.
I'm really happy to see tricks like this pop up in SC2. I mean, who didn't love mineral walking or Muta Stacking in BW? Just because it's good doesn't mean it's broken.
Also, a lot of good Terrans were having trouble using all the Ghost's snipes before they die. I see it all the time, and it's depressing when 1 Infestor fungals 9 Ghosts and they all have 100+ energy left over and die from Broodlords instantly. I can't wait to use this in my games.
Playing alot of ling infestor a time when I spam infested terrans occurs at least once a game. Changed it to mouse wheel and it is definately more effective than my old method of clicking like a maniac. Will have to see whether or not it wil break the game i.e ghost snipes etc.
*edit*
I even changed scroll up to right click to save the mad clicking on mineral patches when pairing early game. Just a quick up scroll and they stay right on the patch for lining up. Dont even need the stop method anymore
wow guys do you read any of the previous posts? I think the OP needs to update his thread because ghosts do have a cool down and the only reason they were owning those ultras so fast is because there were more ghosts needed than necessary to kill one ultra. Try using 1 ghost and see what happens. Try using 5 ghosts. You'll get 5 quick snipes but the 2nd wave of snipes aren't instantaneous, there IS a cool down so there isn't anything to worry about when people can just shift click snipe and still get away with similar (albeit slower) speeds.
again I want to reiterate that LANs will NOT allow 3rd party programs in tournaments so if you plan on playing in local tournaments I highly suggest you give this up for good.
with that said, the community should just unanimously agree not to use this even online because it doesn't help you practice for LAN and I guarantee the pros will look down on using extra programs because LANs are the main way for them to earn money.
That was awesome. I'm still amazed of the things the engine allows. I'm just a bit sad over the fact that the same engine limit some other things coming to micro.
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
I gotta try that, you could just scroll over their medivacs or infestors and get all of them super easy. Or even if you see a Terran army just hold feedback then scroll over an army with ghosts in it and be guaranteed to hit at least some of the ghosts, even if they're mixed in. Or even over the minimap since you can feedback from the minimap.
guess someone never played protoss and talks like he found out something.
this cheat is useless for any spell that protoss has, except may be creating hallucinations, where it isn't needed anyway.
I never tried it when I made the comment and never claimed to find out anything. I do play Protoss, and have mained for over a year after release. I was saying that if you could hypothetically do what I said it would make feedback good, but I never said it actually worked. No need to be a dick.
On February 07 2012 09:51 SuperPro wrote: Can someone please explain how to do this without some sort of program?
Is it possible to do this with just sc2 itself rather than using some program?
Thanks
Simply put, the driver software that the manufacturer of your mouse can assign your scroll wheel to a "Macro" that you can assign to use the left or right mouse button when your scroll wheel sends input to your computer. It is not considered against TOS because it is not doing multiple actions on a single input.
Doing this method with mouse drivers and the programs that manufacturers make for them is no different than using something like X-Mouse for the same thing.
All programs that manipulate the input of hardware devices are considered "third party" and it does not matter what one you use as long as you are doing 1 action per 1 input.
This trick isn't any faster than shift-click done properly.
See above demo if you don't believe me, and watch through to 6 mins to see how this works even with feedback, transfuse and snipe.
The scroll click actually looks SLOWER.
This requires you to perform the action before you are there, the mousewheel lets you do it without having to move to a location. If you are playing terran, and are caught off guard when 8 ultras suddenly appear, you can select all of your ghosts and nearly instantly queue up snipes vs having to click on each and ever ultralisk 10 times.
That's assuming you have like 20+ ghosts in the first place, which is considerably more expensive than 8 ultras.
This technique is only really an issue when terran has mass ghosts, and quite frankly if you let them reach that point you are in so much trouble regardless. In the sorts of engagements that actually happen in real games it is not really any faster than simply spamming left click. Even with a decent number of ghosts selected I can click faster than they can fire.
And anyway if we are really talking late late game then with 20+ ghosts then terran has so many scans available that he always has warning and vision of any incoming army.
On February 07 2012 09:51 SuperPro wrote: Can someone please explain how to do this without some sort of program?
Is it possible to do this with just sc2 itself rather than using some program?
Thanks
Simply put, the driver software that the manufacturer of your mouse can assign your scroll wheel to a "Macro" that you can assign to use the left or right mouse button when your scroll wheel sends input to your computer. It is not considered against TOS because it is not doing multiple actions on a single input.
Doing this method with mouse drivers and the programs that manufacturers make for them is no different than using something like X-Mouse for the same thing.
All programs that manipulate the input of hardware devices are considered "third party" and it does not matter what one you use as long as you are doing 1 action per 1 input.
Okay, now I have a Razer Deathadder and it has drivers for things like this I believe, can you outline what exactly I'd need to do?
Like what keys within the driver would I have to reassign, and what keys in starcraft would I have to reassign?
First time logitech has disappointed me with their drivers. I can't actually rebind the scroll to anything other than..scrolling. So to make it work I'd need that program which would never be allowed at lans. I guess as Toss there isn't much I could have used it for anyways, but would have been fun to try it out.
On February 07 2012 09:51 SuperPro wrote: Can someone please explain how to do this without some sort of program?
Is it possible to do this with just sc2 itself rather than using some program?
Thanks
Simply put, the driver software that the manufacturer of your mouse can assign your scroll wheel to a "Macro" that you can assign to use the left or right mouse button when your scroll wheel sends input to your computer. It is not considered against TOS because it is not doing multiple actions on a single input.
Doing this method with mouse drivers and the programs that manufacturers make for them is no different than using something like X-Mouse for the same thing.
All programs that manipulate the input of hardware devices are considered "third party" and it does not matter what one you use as long as you are doing 1 action per 1 input.
Okay, now I have a Razer Deathadder and it has drivers for things like this I believe, can you outline what exactly I'd need to do?
Like what keys within the driver would I have to reassign, and what keys in starcraft would I have to reassign?
Also have a Deathadder. You don't need to change anything in the SC2 client. Here is a screen of what you need to change under the Razer drivers UI.
Anyway is this working as intended? If not, then Blizzard will fix it. (keep it mind that viking flower / archon toilet were considered not working as intended)
On February 07 2012 09:51 SuperPro wrote: Can someone please explain how to do this without some sort of program?
Is it possible to do this with just sc2 itself rather than using some program?
Thanks
Simply put, the driver software that the manufacturer of your mouse can assign your scroll wheel to a "Macro" that you can assign to use the left or right mouse button when your scroll wheel sends input to your computer. It is not considered against TOS because it is not doing multiple actions on a single input.
Doing this method with mouse drivers and the programs that manufacturers make for them is no different than using something like X-Mouse for the same thing.
All programs that manipulate the input of hardware devices are considered "third party" and it does not matter what one you use as long as you are doing 1 action per 1 input.
Okay, now I have a Razer Deathadder and it has drivers for things like this I believe, can you outline what exactly I'd need to do?
Like what keys within the driver would I have to reassign, and what keys in starcraft would I have to reassign?
Also have a Deathadder. You don't need to change anything in the SC2 client. Here is a screen of what you need to change under the Razer drivers UI.
Change Values to "Click" or "Menu" depending on whether you want it bound to left or right click...
I'm sorry, but I do not understand completely. What do I change them to? Would I simply change Scroll up or down to press the 'r' key? It seems like this would conflict with browsing the internet and doing other things. Is there a way to do it without having to switch profiles each time I play starcraft?
On February 07 2012 09:51 SuperPro wrote: Can someone please explain how to do this without some sort of program?
Is it possible to do this with just sc2 itself rather than using some program?
Thanks
Simply put, the driver software that the manufacturer of your mouse can assign your scroll wheel to a "Macro" that you can assign to use the left or right mouse button when your scroll wheel sends input to your computer. It is not considered against TOS because it is not doing multiple actions on a single input.
Doing this method with mouse drivers and the programs that manufacturers make for them is no different than using something like X-Mouse for the same thing.
All programs that manipulate the input of hardware devices are considered "third party" and it does not matter what one you use as long as you are doing 1 action per 1 input.
Okay, now I have a Razer Deathadder and it has drivers for things like this I believe, can you outline what exactly I'd need to do?
Like what keys within the driver would I have to reassign, and what keys in starcraft would I have to reassign?
Also have a Deathadder. You don't need to change anything in the SC2 client. Here is a screen of what you need to change under the Razer drivers UI.
Change Values to "Click" or "Menu" depending on whether you want it bound to left or right click...
I'm sorry, but I do not understand completely. What do I change them to? Would I simply change Scroll up or down to press the 'r' key? It seems like this would conflict with browsing the internet and doing other things. Is there a way to do it without having to switch profiles each time I play starcraft?
Thanks again
Change scroll keys to "click" (you will see the options in the drop down menu) You simply hold down "r" and scroll/click the units you want to snipe....
it sucks but you must switch profiles every time you game vs browse the net if you use scrolling in your web browser. If someone finds away around this please post....
On February 07 2012 10:07 Al Bundy wrote: Wow that 20.000 apm screenshot is... extreme.
Anyway is this working as intended? If not, then Blizzard will fix it. (keep it mind that viking flower / archon toilet were considered not working as intended)
This has nothing to do with blizzard, ive done this on many fps(for trolling/funzies) Back in cod4, i would take the .50 cal, take Bandolier and slight of hand (extra ammo/fast reloading) The only thing different, though, the ingame settings allowed anyone to do this even without mouse driver software. Theres honestly nothing to stop this UNLESS they put a cap on how fast you could click, then, it could interfear with pros.. Honestly, alot of ppl in FPS games think of it as hacking, but ITS IN THE GAME SETTINGS ITSELF TO DO SO See.
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
I gotta try that, you could just scroll over their medivacs or infestors and get all of them super easy. Or even if you see a Terran army just hold feedback then scroll over an army with ghosts in it and be guaranteed to hit at least some of the ghosts, even if they're mixed in. Or even over the minimap since you can feedback from the minimap.
This setting + unlocked scrollwheel gear on G9X = all infested terrans out in one tiny motion with your finger (On the G9 and other Logitechs you can unlock the scroll wheel with a button on the bottom so it spins freely and it actually spins for a really long time). It feels super unfair to do it.
Great idea, if you want to use 20 feedbacks on 1 medivac.
Doesn't it say that the target has no energy and simply does not perform the feedback if the unit no longer has energy?
This trick isn't any faster than shift-click done properly.
See above demo if you don't believe me, and watch through to 6 mins to see how this works even with feedback, transfuse and snipe.
The scroll click actually looks SLOWER.
This requires you to perform the action before you are there, the mousewheel lets you do it without having to move to a location. If you are playing terran, and are caught off guard when 8 ultras suddenly appear, you can select all of your ghosts and nearly instantly queue up snipes vs having to click on each and ever ultralisk 10 times.
That's assuming you have like 20+ ghosts in the first place, which is considerably more expensive than 8 ultras.
This technique is only really an issue when terran has mass ghosts, and quite frankly if you let them reach that point you are in so much trouble regardless. In the sorts of engagements that actually happen in real games it is not really any faster than simply spamming left click. Even with a decent number of ghosts selected I can click faster than they can fire.
And anyway if we are really talking late late game then with 20+ ghosts then terran has so many scans available that he always has warning and vision of any incoming army.
11 ghosts with 150 energy can kill 6 ultralisks outright with just snipe (8 ultras if 200 energy). 2200/1100 vs 1800/1200
And if you can click 66 times in 4-5 seconds, I applaud you. For us humans, this mouse wheel trick works better for snap sniping instead of move command (dangerous in and of itself) -> queue and take 15+ seconds to queue snipes
I wonder if the meta-game will now include Mass Ravens with Auto-turret spamming? I haven't seen a video on whether or not this would make dropping mass turrets faster and more viable.
Mass Snipes leading the way for a terran army in close quarter engagements...that's just scary...
On February 07 2012 10:57 crydee wrote: anyone able to do this with setpoint? I created a profile to detect when sc2.exe launch but the mouse wheel isn't rebinding to left click.
It is only possible on the newer mice. I have to use X-Mouse on my MX518. But if you have a mouse that can do it from the newest drivers just find the binding for the wheel down command and rebind it to a macro that does a single "left click" command.
So, as some others have already mentioned, this technique is more effective when the ghost count increases. With only 4 ghosts, it's relatively easy to spam R fast enough so that you are still limited by the small internal cooldown on the snipe ability on small squad of ghosts.
However when your ghost numbers start getting high, like above 8, it gets increasingly difficult to dump the snipe energy as fast as possible using R spamming without this technique, as there are more ghosts now and the cooldowns are more available. It is stupidly easy to dump ghost energy with this technique.
With 12+ ghosts (which usually are only present in 200 vs 200 TvZ battles), its imperative that you dump ghost energy ASAP so you have move on to other micro, or you are limited in time because the zerg wave of bane ultra fungal is about to hit your ghost pack hard.
I'm curious if MLG will ban this specifically. If they do it will set a good precendent for future tournaments, because IMO it's not good for the game overall. Late game snipe spamming should blossom in the hands of a high APM player, not to the masses.
On February 07 2012 11:29 FinalForm wrote: So, as some others have already mentioned, this technique is more effective when the ghost count increases. With only 4 ghosts, it's relatively easy to spam R fast enough so that you are still limited by the small internal cooldown on the snipe ability on small squad of ghosts.
However when your ghost numbers start getting high, like above 8, it gets increasingly difficult to dump the snipe energy as fast as possible using R spamming without this technique, as there are more ghosts now and the cooldowns are more available. It is stupidly easy to dump ghost energy with this technique.
With 12+ ghosts (which usually are only present in 200 vs 200 TvZ battles), its imperative that you dump ghost energy ASAP so you have move on to other micro, or you are limited in time because the zerg wave of bane ultra fungal is about to hit your ghost pack hard.
I'm curious if MLG will ban this specifically. If they do it will set a good precendent for future tournaments, because IMO it's not good for the game overall. Late game snipe spamming should blossom in the hands of a high APM player, not to the masses.
Its like Roids for APM. Do roids improve the game, or take away from the game is the question.
On February 07 2012 11:29 FinalForm wrote: So, as some others have already mentioned, this technique is more effective when the ghost count increases. With only 4 ghosts, it's relatively easy to spam R fast enough so that you are still limited by the small internal cooldown on the snipe ability on small squad of ghosts.
However when your ghost numbers start getting high, like above 8, it gets increasingly difficult to dump the snipe energy as fast as possible using R spamming without this technique, as there are more ghosts now and the cooldowns are more available. It is stupidly easy to dump ghost energy with this technique.
With 12+ ghosts (which usually are only present in 200 vs 200 TvZ battles), its imperative that you dump ghost energy ASAP so you have move on to other micro, or you are limited in time because the zerg wave of bane ultra fungal is about to hit your ghost pack hard.
I'm curious if MLG will ban this specifically. If they do it will set a good precendent for future tournaments, because IMO it's not good for the game overall. Late game snipe spamming should blossom in the hands of a high APM player, not to the masses.
Its like Roids for APM. Do roids improve the game, or take away from the game is the question.
tbh, if we actually saw someone do this on the main stage of MLG, I think there would be a lot of boo'ing from the crowd
On February 07 2012 11:29 FinalForm wrote: So, as some others have already mentioned, this technique is more effective when the ghost count increases. With only 4 ghosts, it's relatively easy to spam R fast enough so that you are still limited by the small internal cooldown on the snipe ability on small squad of ghosts.
However when your ghost numbers start getting high, like above 8, it gets increasingly difficult to dump the snipe energy as fast as possible using R spamming without this technique, as there are more ghosts now and the cooldowns are more available. It is stupidly easy to dump ghost energy with this technique.
With 12+ ghosts (which usually are only present in 200 vs 200 TvZ battles), its imperative that you dump ghost energy ASAP so you have move on to other micro, or you are limited in time because the zerg wave of bane ultra fungal is about to hit your ghost pack hard.
I'm curious if MLG will ban this specifically. If they do it will set a good precendent for future tournaments, because IMO it's not good for the game overall. Late game snipe spamming should blossom in the hands of a high APM player, not to the masses.
Its like Roids for APM. Do roids improve the game, or take away from the game is the question.
that's a pretty seriously flawed argument
blowing a line of adderall before a match would be like roids for apm
this is like buying a better golf club, and when do you finally cross the threshold where you have to set limits on what the equipment for the sport can do
On February 07 2012 11:34 FinalForm wrote: tbh, if we actually saw someone do this on the main stage of MLG, I think there would be a lot of boo'ing from the crowd
just based on the insanity in the GSL i'm pretty sure the koreans already know about this (mvp's snipes come to mind) and we're just finding out now
i'm not defending it at all but i think we're attacking the wrong thing, the real issue is you shouldn't be able to hold shift and a key and just keep clicking in the first place
we don't need to scale the UI back to cloning in BW but you really should have to hit one keystroke per spell
fixing the mousewheel issue is literally impossible but to get around the former you'd need a macro keyboard which already is illegal
I find this to be extremely effective when deselecting units from the clip board, ala Stephano harass defense, no longer must you rapidly spam click to deselect 20 zerglings, if you want to break some shit off of your control group to defend. Just simply scroll with shift over the clip board and shit fly's out of the group, amazing!
If you use AutoHotkey, you can easily bind it so that scroll wheel becomes click only in StarCraft situations (i.e. when you have R/T/whatever depressed) to avoid it being annoying
If you can't bind this within starcraft 2 there's no reason why this would be legal in competition. I can't imagine an MLG would allow 3rd party programs to help you bind keys.
Mlg would ahve to make a NEW rule about this or blizzard would have to PATCH this as it currently does NOT break any rules or TOS.
You can bring a mouse that stores profiles on it (MANY mice do this) and it would work 100% fine at the driver level with no installing of a program on your computer.
I confirmed this myself with a Xai and a G9.
On February 07 2012 12:36 MurDeRsc2 wrote: If you can't bind this within starcraft 2 there's no reason why this would be legal in competition. I can't imagine an MLG would allow 3rd party programs to help you bind keys.
Posts like this are correct in the rules about 3rd party programs but fail to understand that you do not need to do that to use this ability.
its good but u r gonna blow all ur energy with little control over it and if its ITs all the opponent has to do is just walk away and they die then u have no energy O_O maybe better for something like ghosts when u r sniping its usually a head on engagement
OH SHIT. This is going to result in some sick spreads and wipe-outs. May be game-breaking; and hopefully Blizz doesn't do shit about it and let players experiment.
If they remove smart-casting because of this though... AHHHH
On February 07 2012 12:36 MurDeRsc2 wrote: If you can't bind this within starcraft 2 there's no reason why this would be legal in competition. I can't imagine an MLG would allow 3rd party programs to help you bind keys.
What are you talking about? It's part of the mouse's software. To use the mouse, you install the software. MLG and every other competition lets you do this. I can't count the number of times matches have been delayed because of driver/software issues when the players install their mouse/keyboard. If you wanted to use some random other 3rd party program, then sure, I don't think MLG/whatever would let you. But it's not hard to find a mouse with these types of settings.
On February 06 2012 15:23 Azzur wrote: For those that are questioning the validity / legality of this - I'm 100% sure that this would be allowed in the GSL - players are allowed to install their own mouse drivers and rebind keys as long as it's 1-to-1 key bind. For tournaments such as MLG, it "should" be allowed but time constraints may not allow for it.
For example, I'm using a Microsoft Intellimouse and the built-in drivers allow me to rebind keys. In World of Warcraft, doing such things are very common that gaming mice have been released to have many buttons on a mouse.
Question, doesn't this count as NOT 1-to-1 key binding, and thus, illegal? Because this would technically be Many-to-1, because the left mouse button is still the Mouse1, and if you bind another key to Mouse1, that counts as Many-to-1. Just an honest question.
Saw this this morning when it was just infested terrans, I'm not sure if I feel like snipe was already too strong in certain situations or whether this puts it over the top. Blizz might need to add a longer cooldown. Edit.. on second thought that doesn't really fix the problem.. might encourage a basic re-conceptualization of ghosts or the spell. It definitely made for some anti-climactic zvt late game even before this.
On February 06 2012 15:23 Azzur wrote: For those that are questioning the validity / legality of this - I'm 100% sure that this would be allowed in the GSL - players are allowed to install their own mouse drivers and rebind keys as long as it's 1-to-1 key bind. For tournaments such as MLG, it "should" be allowed but time constraints may not allow for it.
For example, I'm using a Microsoft Intellimouse and the built-in drivers allow me to rebind keys. In World of Warcraft, doing such things are very common that gaming mice have been released to have many buttons on a mouse.
Question, doesn't this count as NOT 1-to-1 key binding, and thus, illegal? Because this would technically be Many-to-1, because the left mouse button is still the Mouse1, and if you bind another key to Mouse1, that counts as Many-to-1. Just an honest question.
What is happening is that 1 scroll of the mousewheel (i.e. moving the wheel 1 notch) = 1 left click. Why it's so fast because it's faster to scroll the mousewheel rather than left click repeatedly. Hence, it's a 1-to-1 key binding and hence legal.
What may happen in the future is that tournaments may declare this illegal but for the time being, it's definitely legal on the ladder and in tournaments.
Anyone else having problems with getting this to work? I use a razer deathadder and I rebinded scroll up and down to left click and sure it works but it is nowhere near as fast as in the videos, if I scroll too much/fast in any direction it just seems to ignore the commands all togheter. If i scroll slowly a little down then a little up it does it fairly fast but I can do faster with just clicking the left mouse button on my own. And just now when I went crazy with the scroll button I got a blue screen and crashed....?
Is there any way to increase the clicks the mouse does when you scroll? I looked around in the control panel under the mouse settings but I couldn't find anything that increased the speed of clicks.
also am I supposed to have the ghosts in hold position/hold fire?
Edit:
I also tried changing the "scroll speed" in the razer deathadder settings but that does not really change anything either.
On February 06 2012 15:23 Azzur wrote: For those that are questioning the validity / legality of this - I'm 100% sure that this would be allowed in the GSL - players are allowed to install their own mouse drivers and rebind keys as long as it's 1-to-1 key bind. For tournaments such as MLG, it "should" be allowed but time constraints may not allow for it.
For example, I'm using a Microsoft Intellimouse and the built-in drivers allow me to rebind keys. In World of Warcraft, doing such things are very common that gaming mice have been released to have many buttons on a mouse.
Question, doesn't this count as NOT 1-to-1 key binding, and thus, illegal? Because this would technically be Many-to-1, because the left mouse button is still the Mouse1, and if you bind another key to Mouse1, that counts as Many-to-1. Just an honest question.
The 'one keystroke = one action' policy refers to a restriction against one keystroke doing two things, such as selecting your nexus control group, followed by making a probe. That would be two actions with one keystroke. This, however, is nothing more than holding Z down to spam Zerglings, something with Blizzard has even offered as a tip. Having a keystroke repeat itself while it's 'held down' is completely within the rules.
Doesn't the fact you need to use shift highly limit it's effectiveness vs BL's and other things? I mean ultras it'll still be fine since they're melee and such, but for BL you want to snipe when as far away as possible....
On February 07 2012 02:23 goswser wrote: This will never be allowed in competitions since it breaks late game TvZ. People are already claiming snipe is broken even when you can't use the scroll wheel trick.
All right goswer. But we're also taking away your ability to hold down the Z key to make 100 Zerglings in 5 seconds. Same for every other Zerg hotkey...
You see, if you're going to start on the bandwagon, then make sure you do it across the board, not just the "T OP" whining.
If u do this and watch the replay afterwards u will see that everytime u use this u will have more than 1000 APM. I dunno if this is a bug or not but it just feels imba. When i tried it i laughed my ass off but it won't be allowed for sure.
this can be used for any caster unit and every race has a caster unit (mainly ghost ht infestor). i dont think they will ban it cause technically you are just hotkeying your left click to scroll. whats so illegal in this ?
Edit: In fact, i wouldn't use it. I just dont like macro keys.. it doesn't show any kind of skill.
On February 07 2012 14:36 Zeyhn wrote: Anyone else having problems with getting this to work? I use a razer deathadder and I rebinded scroll up and down to left click and sure it works but it is nowhere near as fast as in the videos, if I scroll too much/fast in any direction it just seems to ignore the commands all togheter. If i scroll slowly a little down then a little up it does it fairly fast but I can do faster with just clicking the left mouse button on my own. And just now when I went crazy with the scroll button I got a blue screen and crashed....?
Is there any way to increase the clicks the mouse does when you scroll? I looked around in the control panel under the mouse settings but I couldn't find anything that increased the speed of clicks.
also am I supposed to have the ghosts in hold position/hold fire?
Edit:
I also tried changing the "scroll speed" in the razer deathadder settings but that does not really change anything either.
Same problem here. I experimented with it for quite awhile and didn't find it effective because for some reason the ghosts get deselected when I scroll the wheel quickly or when I accidentally click on open space instead of an enemy unit (e.g., roaches running at me).
On February 07 2012 11:29 FinalForm wrote: So, as some others have already mentioned, this technique is more effective when the ghost count increases. With only 4 ghosts, it's relatively easy to spam R fast enough so that you are still limited by the small internal cooldown on the snipe ability on small squad of ghosts.
However when your ghost numbers start getting high, like above 8, it gets increasingly difficult to dump the snipe energy as fast as possible using R spamming without this technique, as there are more ghosts now and the cooldowns are more available. It is stupidly easy to dump ghost energy with this technique.
With 12+ ghosts (which usually are only present in 200 vs 200 TvZ battles), its imperative that you dump ghost energy ASAP so you have move on to other micro, or you are limited in time because the zerg wave of bane ultra fungal is about to hit your ghost pack hard.
I'm curious if MLG will ban this specifically. If they do it will set a good precendent for future tournaments, because IMO it's not good for the game overall. Late game snipe spamming should blossom in the hands of a high APM player, not to the masses.
Its like Roids for APM. Do roids improve the game, or take away from the game is the question.
that's a pretty seriously flawed argument
blowing a line of adderall before a match would be like roids for apm
this is like buying a better golf club, and when do you finally cross the threshold where you have to set limits on what the equipment for the sport can do
On February 07 2012 11:34 FinalForm wrote: tbh, if we actually saw someone do this on the main stage of MLG, I think there would be a lot of boo'ing from the crowd
just based on the insanity in the GSL i'm pretty sure the koreans already know about this (mvp's snipes come to mind) and we're just finding out now
i'm not defending it at all but i think we're attacking the wrong thing, the real issue is you shouldn't be able to hold shift and a key and just keep clicking in the first place
we don't need to scale the UI back to cloning in BW but you really should have to hit one keystroke per spell
fixing the mousewheel issue is literally impossible but to get around the former you'd need a macro keyboard which already is illegal
Pretty sure macro keyboards aren't illegal until you use a macro with multiple commands.
I tried the autohotkey program that v3ctor recommended instead of changing it in razer and now it works A LOT better.
hold position + hold fire and just hold R(or press R then hold shift in some situations) while scrolling and hovering the mouse over the ultras, tried in unit tester and it works like in the videos now.
Gotten the deselect a few times but as long as I first hold down the R key it seems to work.
On February 07 2012 07:17 xsnac wrote: if this work on HIGH TEMPLAR FEEDBACK someone tell MC fast and protoss shall win a GSL CODE S SOON !!
I gotta try that, you could just scroll over their medivacs or infestors and get all of them super easy. Or even if you see a Terran army just hold feedback then scroll over an army with ghosts in it and be guaranteed to hit at least some of the ghosts, even if they're mixed in. Or even over the minimap since you can feedback from the minimap.
This setting + unlocked scrollwheel gear on G9X = all infested terrans out in one tiny motion with your finger (On the G9 and other Logitechs you can unlock the scroll wheel with a button on the bottom so it spins freely and it actually spins for a really long time). It feels super unfair to do it.
Great idea, if you want to use 20 feedbacks on 1 medivac.
Doesn't it say that the target has no energy and simply does not perform the feedback if the unit no longer has energy?
On February 06 2012 15:23 Azzur wrote: For those that are questioning the validity / legality of this - I'm 100% sure that this would be allowed in the GSL - players are allowed to install their own mouse drivers and rebind keys as long as it's 1-to-1 key bind. For tournaments such as MLG, it "should" be allowed but time constraints may not allow for it.
For example, I'm using a Microsoft Intellimouse and the built-in drivers allow me to rebind keys. In World of Warcraft, doing such things are very common that gaming mice have been released to have many buttons on a mouse.
Question, doesn't this count as NOT 1-to-1 key binding, and thus, illegal? Because this would technically be Many-to-1, because the left mouse button is still the Mouse1, and if you bind another key to Mouse1, that counts as Many-to-1. Just an honest question.
No. You're simply mapping more than one key to one particular action. You're not mapping multiple actions to one key, which would be problematic.
It'd be like having multiple keys build a probe, which isn't really bad. This is bad only 'cause the mouse scroll wheel can be triggered so quickly...
On February 07 2012 17:42 enykie wrote: its sad that people need things like that. I got 2 ideas in mind, apm peaks are recognizeable(banable) and/or give snipe a cooldown of 0,5 seconds.
the time of installing this shit would be better invested in optimising your macro... but its easier to cheat thats true.
1. it's not cheat per se 2. it takes about 2 minutes to install, so highly unlikely u'd miss that time
Btw, i tried and im not gonna use it, as zerg, though as Terran i would be very tempted It's game changing for ghosts, with infested terrans, meh...
Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
On February 07 2012 17:42 enykie wrote: its sad that people need things like that. I got 2 ideas in mind, apm peaks are recognizeable(banable) and/or give snipe a cooldown of 0,5 seconds.
the time of installing this shit would be better invested in optimising your macro... but its easier to cheat thats true.
Honestly, I think that it is blizzard's fault for creating certain spell mechanics like infested terrans and snipe which is dependant (read strength based upon) the users ability to rapidly utilise the spell... not rapid in terms of casting several emps on a protoss ball, but rapid as in cast as many %^&*ing times as possible.
I find it misleading you use the term: people "need" things like this... and the reason i dislike that term is because the spell design of both snipe and to a lesser extent infested terran are both MECHANICALLY POOR.
I hate the design of snipe because of how it is, it is basically an APM dump that is only remotely useful to the highest tier of player who can manage it... now there is a tool which allows any player to use snipes as efficiently as possible (in terms of ghost speed) and you would criticism them because their fingers or their mouse buttons aren't fast enough.
Someone remarked that this mechanic makes snipe "even more OP"... which i found disgusting because i hate the idea of a spell (or tactic's) difficulty of use being a determining factor in balance... especially when dealing with "maximum potentials" that most pros are dealing with... 90% of terran players cannot beautifully or perfectly que snipes... (and even after trying this myself it is quite clumsy)
I will probably keep this, as being able to cast infested terrans in battle is always convenient and now i can more reliably use my caster energy and control my army better...
I AM SURPRISED THAT BLIZZARD DOESNT ALLOW MOUSE WHEEL/BUTTON KEYBINDS in their natural hotkey system (excluding mouse buttons 3 and beyond)... In that spirit, I wouldn't be surprised if blizzard added the "left click" and "right click" functions in unit management to allow similar rebindings.
w.e, just means i need to build more infesters gl hf gg and no whining!
and i just want everyone to remember, that this doesn't do anything for you, it only grants more accurate control of your forces (by allowing you to 'click' faster) nothing more...
On February 07 2012 17:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
the only buttons you CANNOT rebind are left/right click and scroll up/scroll down... middle mouse click, button 4, button 5, and beyond are all rebindable (my mouse button 4 is idle workers, its an incredibly useful tool :D )
On February 07 2012 17:58 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I find it misleading you use the term: people "need" things like this... and the reason i dislike that term is because the spell design of both snipe and to a lesser extent infested terran are both MECHANICALLY POOR.)
I beg to differ! I feel that Terran has the most rewarding mechancis of all races. I switched to Zerg and Injects are just a pain. I turn my brain off every minute to do it.
On February 07 2012 17:58 XerrolAvengerII wrote: I hate the design of snipe because of how it is, it is basically an APM dump that is only remotely useful to the highest tier of player who can manage it... now there is a tool which allows any player to use snipes as efficiently as possible (in terms of g)
It's these sorta things that set the pros apart from the masses though... their ability to efficiently use what others aren't capable of by means of speed and dexterity.
And its fair to critizise automation of such things because it undermines the competitive aspect of the game.
On February 07 2012 17:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
Why wouldn't it? You are binding on a 1-to-1 scale, so it is just like having custom hotkeys AFAIK
I don't really see the issue. Everyone can do it. If anything it creates a level playing field between those who have higher spam click speed than others, which I don't believe is a bad thing.
If there is an issue at all, it's with the actual base ghost snipe spell in ZvT. Maybe they should just put a cooldown on it.
I have known about this for a very long time hoping people would not find about it. (cytoplasm discovered it when we lived together in the Swedish Pro house) I think tournaments should ban it immediately, which will be fairly easy considering you need a 3rd party program to rebind left mouse-button to other keys.
It is extremely game breaking and definitely not a cool feature we just found out about. Another solution would be to just give Infested Terran and snipe a short cool down but I prefer the other solution as then you cant be limited by the cool-down only by how fast you can click.
On February 07 2012 17:42 enykie wrote: its sad that people need things like that. I got 2 ideas in mind, apm peaks are recognizeable(banable) and/or give snipe a cooldown of 0,5 seconds.
the time of installing this shit would be better invested in optimising your macro... but its easier to cheat thats true.
Snipe has a cast time of about half a second, the problem here is that you can make all your ghosts cast it at the same time instead of based on how fast you can click.
The solution for this is to not prevent people from using the scroll trick, but allowing people to make all thier spellcasters cast a spell at the same time without the use of the scroll wheel. Such as holding another key along with shift makes all casters use spell at once. I don't like things that are better the faster you can click, such as mass spellcasting.
If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
I tried it a bit in unit tester (as ghosts, not as IT's) and only once in a real game, but it's actually retarded. 7 broodlords floated towards 8 ghosts and they could only get 8 broodlings out before they were all dead.
an official blizzard statement would be great about the legitimacy. imo this is total twilight area, since it is no real macro (like stated before). on the other hand this is more of a moral issue. additionally not everyone is able to know about it and able to use it since it depends on your peripherals and abilities to set it up. on this basis you cannot make balance changes to spells etc b/c the ones not using the "new" option will have it extra hard to be successfull with it, whereas the "users" will just be where they where before. you can only balance around the same basis available to all players.
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I think all spells behave like that with the 1.5 second delay. ForceFields, Feedback & storm I know for a fact behave like that, it's super annoying.
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't see how it's a bug since every "one target" spell behave like this. Feedback and queen's heal just do exactly the same thing.
In fact, AoE spells do the same thing. But with these spell's, you don't "click" on a particular unit so you avoid this problem.
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
Just because no progamer complained before, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem or a potential bug with this. At the moment it feels very clunky. I hope blizzard can give us an answer as to why you have to wait 1.5seconds after Holding "R"(Snipe default key),before being able to snipe properly with multiple ghosts,when no other spell has this "limitation"(bug).
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't see how it's a bug since every "one target" spell behave like this. Feedback and queen's heal just do exactly the same thing.
In fact, AoE spells do the same thing. But with these spell's, you don't "click" on a particular unit so you avoid this problem.
As you said AOE spells,(in fact any spell with no target requirement) do the same thing but you don't click on a unit and therefore there is no need to Hold the spell key and THEN wait 1.5seconds before start snipe spamming(Hold R + left click spam method). Feedback you only need to use it once per target and Queen's heal doesn't require crazy spamming to be effective,so the only spell affected is the Snipe.
On February 07 2012 19:26 Afterstar wrote:I hope blizzard can give us an answer as to why you have to wait 1.5seconds after Holding "R"(Snipe default key),before being able to snipe properly with multiple ghosts,when no other spell has this "limitation"(bug).
Because while you are "holding" a key, you use the "repeat key" function of your keyboard. When you type a text, just hold a key and you'll see the same behavior. You hold the key, and you must wait a little moment before your keyboard start to repeat the key. This "timer" can be modified in Windows keyboard settings (the minimum you can set is 0.5 real second).
In SC2, we use this "repeat key" for spells spamming. But it's a keyboard function, not SC2 function.
On February 07 2012 19:26 Afterstar wrote:I hope blizzard can give us an answer as to why you have to wait 1.5seconds after Holding "R"(Snipe default key),before being able to snipe properly with multiple ghosts,when no other spell has this "limitation"(bug).
Because while you are "holding" a key, you use the "repeat key" function of your keyboard. When you type a text, just hold a key and you'll see the same behavior. You hold the key, and you must wait a little moment before your keyboard start to repeat the key. This "timer" can be modified in Windows keyboard settings (the minimum you can set is 0.5 real second).
In SC2, we use this "repeat key" for spells spamming. But it's a keyboard function, not SC2 function.
You sir may have found the problem/solution. But why when you *hold* a key to queue up units or create zerg units,it does it immediately with no delay at all , or how about AOE spells?
On February 07 2012 19:26 Afterstar wrote:I hope blizzard can give us an answer as to why you have to wait 1.5seconds after Holding "R"(Snipe default key),before being able to snipe properly with multiple ghosts,when no other spell has this "limitation"(bug).
Because while you are "holding" a key, you use the "repeat key" function of your keyboard. When you type a text, just hold a key and you'll see the same behavior. You hold the key, and you must wait a little moment before your keyboard start to repeat the key. This "timer" can be modified in Windows keyboard settings (the minimum you can set is 0.5 real second).
In SC2, we use this "repeat key" for spells spamming. But it's a keyboard function, not SC2 function.
You sir may have found the problem/solution. But why when you spam a key to queue up units or create zerg units,it does it immediately with no delay at all , or how about AOE spells?
It does not do it immediatly. You create 1 drone then 1 sec later you create drones with rapid speed. If you set keyboard delay repeat to like 5ms you will almost use all your larva almost immediately, so adjusting repeat delay is a dobble edge sword.
EDIT: well ofc if you spam, you are not holding down the key, so thats why it does it immediately.
On February 07 2012 19:44 RoyAlex wrote: It does not do it immediatly. You create 1 drone then 1 sec later you create drones with rapid speed. If you set keyboard delay repeat to like 5ms you will almost use all your larva almost immediately, so adjusting repeat delay is a dobble edge sword
My bad. 0.5 =/= 5ms. 0.5 is 0.5s ^^ That's the minimum value allowed by Windows. But maybe program or driver can override this.
On February 06 2012 15:23 Azzur wrote: For those that are questioning the validity / legality of this - I'm 100% sure that this would be allowed in the GSL - players are allowed to install their own mouse drivers and rebind keys as long as it's 1-to-1 key bind. For tournaments such as MLG, it "should" be allowed but time constraints may not allow for it.
For example, I'm using a Microsoft Intellimouse and the built-in drivers allow me to rebind keys. In World of Warcraft, doing such things are very common that gaming mice have been released to have many buttons on a mouse.
Question, doesn't this count as NOT 1-to-1 key binding, and thus, illegal? Because this would technically be Many-to-1, because the left mouse button is still the Mouse1, and if you bind another key to Mouse1, that counts as Many-to-1. Just an honest question.
No. You're simply mapping more than one key to one particular action. You're not mapping multiple actions to one key, which would be problematic.
It'd be like having multiple keys build a probe, which isn't really bad. This is bad only 'cause the mouse scroll wheel can be triggered so quickly...
I understand and understood before that 1-to-Many is bad; that wasn't part of my original question. My question is: is Many-to-1 legal? Your example with multiple keys mapped to a probe would count as a Many-to-1; is that legal within GSL rules? This is because someone originally said only 1-to-1 mappings are legal in GSL.
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
Just because no progamer complained before, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem or a potential bug with this. At the moment it feels very clunky. I hope blizzard can give us an answer as to why you have to wait 1.5seconds after Holding "R"(Snipe default key),before being able to snipe properly with multiple ghosts,when no other spell has this "limitation"(bug).
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't see how it's a bug since every "one target" spell behave like this. Feedback and queen's heal just do exactly the same thing.
In fact, AoE spells do the same thing. But with these spell's, you don't "click" on a particular unit so you avoid this problem.
As you said AOE spells,(in fact any spell with no target requirement) do the same thing but you don't click on a unit and therefore there is no need to Hold the spell key and THEN wait 1.5seconds before start snipe spamming(Hold R + left click spam method). Feedback you only need to use it once per target and Queen's heal doesn't require crazy spamming to be effective,so the only spell affected is the Snipe.
The reason for the 1.5 second delay is because the entire game has it, its basically the game accelerating the spam the longer you hold the button. Want to build zerglings? You hold z, one zergling builds, you wait 1.5 seconds, and then it starts mass building. Want to cast forcefields? You either hold the f button for 1.5 seconds before casting, or you do what any sane person would do and spam that button. Want to snipe or cast a million infested terrans at once (without binding scroll up and down) all you need to do is use that shift button and que them up.
The reason its not a problem is because you can work around it fairly easily.
On February 06 2012 15:23 Azzur wrote: For those that are questioning the validity / legality of this - I'm 100% sure that this would be allowed in the GSL - players are allowed to install their own mouse drivers and rebind keys as long as it's 1-to-1 key bind. For tournaments such as MLG, it "should" be allowed but time constraints may not allow for it.
For example, I'm using a Microsoft Intellimouse and the built-in drivers allow me to rebind keys. In World of Warcraft, doing such things are very common that gaming mice have been released to have many buttons on a mouse.
Question, doesn't this count as NOT 1-to-1 key binding, and thus, illegal? Because this would technically be Many-to-1, because the left mouse button is still the Mouse1, and if you bind another key to Mouse1, that counts as Many-to-1. Just an honest question.
No. You're simply mapping more than one key to one particular action. You're not mapping multiple actions to one key, which would be problematic.
It'd be like having multiple keys build a probe, which isn't really bad. This is bad only 'cause the mouse scroll wheel can be triggered so quickly...
I understand and understood before that 1-to-Many is bad; that wasn't part of my original question. My question is: is Many-to-1 legal? Your example with multiple keys mapped to a probe would count as a Many-to-1; is that legal within GSL rules? This is because someone originally said only 1-to-1 mappings are legal in GSL.
Yes, of course its allowed. The game even has the option of doing it in the ingame hotkey system. Hell, if you want to bind the entire keyboard to "d" and faceroll your way to victory there is nothing stopping you. When people talk about 1-1 mapping they mean that you can only bind one key to do one "click". Which means you can't bind a button to hotkey queens, click c and inject for you in one click. You can only bind the key to do one of those things.
edit: should only clarify the button can't be "smart" either. So you can't have it do all of those 3 things in 3 clicks, even thought its technically one thing pr click, its still "one button doing many things".
I don't feel like this breaks the game beyond repair. Or that people won't figure out how to deal with it. As such, I don't think this needs to be patched. Idk. A lot of these posts to me seem like whiney kids who don't want to have to work to win and think it unfair that terran's don't have to work or some idiocracy. And btw, I play zerg so you can cut those stereotypical adhominem come backs. Maybe to take a page out of Sirlin's book, http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
"How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it."
Further
"The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world."
And what's a soft ban?
"Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America."
On February 07 2012 20:31 Aletheia27 wrote: ... A lot of these posts to me seem like whiney kids who don't want to have to work to win and think it unfair that terran's don't have to work or some idiocracy. And btw, I play zerg so you can cut those stereotypical adhominem come backs. Maybe to take a page out of Sirlin's book, http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
Setting the scroll wheel to be right click instead of left click gives you and excellent fast way of deselcting units (like when you put workers on gas, and box 7 drones, just a few scrolls and your down to 3) - maybe this could be used for marine splitting and improved zergling micro as well...?
On February 07 2012 20:31 Aletheia27 wrote: I don't feel like this breaks the game beyond repair. Or that people won't figure out how to deal with it. As such, I don't think this needs to be patched. Idk. A lot of these posts to me seem like whiney kids who don't want to have to work to win and think it unfair that terran's don't have to work or some idiocracy. And btw, I play zerg so you can cut those stereotypical adhominem come backs. Maybe to take a page out of Sirlin's book, http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
"How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it."
Further
"The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world."
And what's a soft ban?
"Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America."
It does break the game when the entire balance of it is based around not being able to do 20000 apm with a single unit and instakill an entire army. Not is it very interesting to watch as a spectator either. Watching a long TvZ game entierly without mutalisks, ultras, broodlords and hydras doesn't sound very interesting tbh.
On February 06 2012 14:53 Cryllic wrote: i wonder if this is allowed in tournaments?
Unlikely as you would need to install a program on their computers before you play, from what little experience I have of tournaments this doesn't tend to happen for a variety of pretty obvious reasons.
Is it possible that there is a mouse that would let you do this?
There are mouses that let you store your setting in it so you don't have to specificly install the software again. So yes
i'm thinking of forcefield spaming with this. If you scroll and move the mouse at the right speed, you should get olmost perfect forcefields. I'll try it when I get home to see how hard it is and how much practice you need.
I don't know about anyone else but when I tried it my scroll wheel must have been moving very slightly as I was moving the mouse and causing a lot of extra clicks that I didn't want. Obviously very annoying and definitely unplayable. I have a Razor Deathadder. Perhaps you need a mouse with a really solid click on each mouse scroll movement to make this worth doing.
On February 07 2012 21:48 Salteador Neo wrote: The usual shift spam infested terrans by pro zergs look very similar to that IMO.
You are referring to the shift queue command method: make the infestors move command for a long distance directly into the mineral line, then while they are moving hold down shift and spam infested T's. It's instantaneous but takes time to be set up and you have to plan ahead, as in if you want to spam infested T's directly near your infestors they won't come out at the same time since you can't really queue them.
The mousewheel method on the other hand allows you to spam infested T's directly during the battle without having to queue up the commands ^^
You can queue up infested terrans with shift + wheel trick. It works. The benefit is always the same : it's pretty easier and faster with the wheel trick.
On February 07 2012 21:48 Salteador Neo wrote: The usual shift spam infested terrans by pro zergs look very similar to that IMO.
You are referring to the shift queue command method: make the infestors move command for a long distance directly into the mineral line, then while they are moving hold down shift and spam infested T's. It's instantaneous but takes time to be set up and you have to plan ahead, as in if you want to spam infested T's directly near your infestors they won't come out at the same time since you can't really queue them.
The mousewheel method on the other hand allows you to spam infested T's directly during the battle without having to queue up the commands ^^
Oh I actually didn't know how it works at all (thinking it worked in another way) :o Thanks for the update.
On February 07 2012 22:12 Otak wrote: I don't know about anyone else but when I tried it my scroll wheel must have been moving very slightly as I was moving the mouse and causing a lot of extra clicks that I didn't want. Obviously very annoying and definitely unplayable. I have a Razor Deathadder. Perhaps you need a mouse with a really solid click on each mouse scroll movement to make this worth doing.
Also have the Deathadder and I think regardless of what mouse you use if you spam too much the click will continue till they "trail" off... So you can over do it and spam too much....
I play toss and have been using it for very fast warp ins but it doesn't feel gaming breaking. Not sure of my stance on snipe or IT yet... I kind of want blizz to leave it alone and let it play out before deciding whether its something they want to address or just leave up to tournaments....
I think arguing whether it's one click for one action, or whether it's against the TOS isn't really as important as determining whether the game needs this unit to operate in this way. Do we need a group of ghosts to shoot all their snipes nearly simultaneously to balance against Z tier 3? Do we need infestors to be able to launch all their infested terrans instantly? etc. etc. It really depends on whether you consider such use of the scroll wheel to be good for the game, or bad for it. Some people brought up the example of Zergs holding down the z button to mass produce zerglings: it's needed because zerg armies like that don't trade cost efficiently against P/T death balls for example, it leverages the ability to stock larvae (unique trait to the race), and you need to remax very quickly to deal with a lot of situations. Otherwise to get to 100 zerglings I'd need to press 'z' 50 times.
On February 07 2012 20:31 Aletheia27 wrote: I don't feel like this breaks the game beyond repair. Or that people won't figure out how to deal with it. As such, I don't think this needs to be patched. Idk. A lot of these posts to me seem like whiney kids who don't want to have to work to win and think it unfair that terran's don't have to work or some idiocracy. And btw, I play zerg so you can cut those stereotypical adhominem come backs. Maybe to take a page out of Sirlin's book, http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
"How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it."
Further
"The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world."
And what's a soft ban?
"Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America."
If I recall correctly, Sirlin does say in his book that to find "one tactic that dominates all the others and it's far easier to execute than it is to stop is his favorite one, but it says very little of the game design" (paraphrasing there:D), as you mention, this will not "destroy" the game but, as I see it, is a flaw in design, so it should be fixed or, at least, taken into consideration on balance design (because it happens to give some races more "power" than it gives the others).
I think that most of Sirlin's thoughts are based on fighting games that, at that time, couldn't be patched like a game nowadays. A "flaw" in the game was no reason to stop playing the game if still was playable but in Stacraft 2 there is the way to fix the "flaw", which blizzard should do in my opinion.
On February 07 2012 21:48 Salteador Neo wrote: The usual shift spam infested terrans by pro zergs look very similar to that IMO.
Snipe, on the other hand...
Shift spam is fast, but that's because you shift-queue a lot of clicks before the actual ability is used. With this setting you'll just need the attack and then scroll. It will take 1/4 of the time even if you're really fast at clicking your mouse buttons.
Ghosts are still horrible at low levels. I practiced this new technique 30 minutes versus the ai. Then comes a real games and my Ghosts can not even reach the broodlords through the flood of zerglings.
Back to mass Thor/hellion/tank/viking for me. Ghosts are still too damn unreliable, it is very easy to lose them all without doing any damage.
Anyone using a Steelseries mouse that was able to rebind the mousewheel? I'm using a Sensei and when I try to rebind the wheel it does not do it for scrolling only for using the mousewheel to click not sure how to do it. Thanks!
So how are people dealing with the pain of having your scroll wheel non functional outside of sc2, if you modify the driver settings? Seems like a pain in the ass to me. I may attempt to rebind through auto hotkey, so I can have the rebind only recognized for sc2...or is this a violation of ToS since its an outside program?
On February 08 2012 04:15 Lobotomist wrote: So how are people dealing with the pain of having your scroll wheel non functional outside of sc2, if you modify the driver settings? Seems like a pain in the ass to me. I may attempt to rebind through auto hotkey, so I can have the rebind only recognized for sc2...or is this a violation of ToS since its an outside program?
The drivers for my mouse allow me to switch through mouse profiles quickly. Its still a pain BUT I have function of my scroll wheel while browsing/outside game by switching profiles... I don't think it would be wise to use a third party program. Using the mouse drivers for this is already pushing your luck IMO....
On February 07 2012 20:36 immanentblue wrote: Setting the scroll wheel to be right click instead of left click gives you and excellent fast way of deselcting units (like when you put workers on gas, and box 7 drones, just a few scrolls and your down to 3) - maybe this could be used for marine splitting and improved zergling micro as well...?
OMG THAT IS BRILLIANT! I'm so bad about that stuff!
now on the topic, I find it disturbing how everyone is thinking that this is gamebreaking in terms of snipe, and people want thing's like a cooldown and such in order to "simulate" the slowness that players traditionally have when using a mechanic like this.
Blizzard created the mechanical limits of snipe by each ghosts sniping once every other second or so... in fact, I want everyone to go back to the WINGS OF LIBERTY CAMPAIGN, and look at the +100 starting energy upgrade, and watch blizzard use TRIGGERS to command the ghosts to PERFECTLY snipe a bunch of Roaches... that is how blizzard advertised the snipe spell, and 90% of players cannot achieve that... now by giving the scroll wheel left click, players can emulate the effect of ghosts in the campaign videos.
Being both a Terran and Zerg player, that doesn't stop my from thinking that this is fine for Infested Terrans, and other cute things like diselecting units for gas etc, etc... but i still think that snipe is a stupid flawed spell that should be replaced with something less stupid (irradiate?) of course, seeker missile is almost an equally stupid mechanic...
I think the problem, was that the ghost got changed from 150/150 to 200/100 (because of infestors) and now players can build so many ghosts, that they can translate ghost energy into damage... I miss the old days when ghosts were more expensive, and players had fewer of them, and EMP was actually decent if you didn't have a billion ghosts...
For the longest time, I've wanted snipe to be doubled, something like 90 damage for 50 energy, so it could be used swiftly for specific purposes like feedback is, to neutralise casters and weaken targets... in that case, using multiple snipes on a target would often overkill (180 damage vs mutas, or dts, or marauders, or w.e) so it would be more costly... you could even justify a cooldown (like the psistorm 3 second) for something like that...
whatever, after testing, using it with snipe is still clunky as $%^& and I'll probably just left click snipes anyway because the scroll wheel feels harder to control, however, will use for Infested Terrans and unit deselection and splitting... thats a worthwhile use.
Man, that's super crazy. I might want to actually work with this for unit splits as Z. Those tri-pronged Terran drops are getting harder and harder to defend.
On February 08 2012 04:50 XerrolAvengerII wrote: For the longest time, I've wanted snipe to be doubled, something like 90 damage for 50 energy, so it could be used swiftly for specific purposes like feedback is, to neutralise casters and weaken targets... in that case, using multiple snipes on a target would often overkill (180 damage vs mutas, or dts, or marauders, or w.e) so it would be more costly... you could even justify a cooldown (like the psistorm 3 second) for something like that...
I actuall liked the difference between snipe and feedback, feedback having range 9 being one click and snipe range 10 but 2 clicks, giving snipe a higher difficult then feedback, where at one point feedback is better but slowly gets worse then snipe. And that if you shift que 2 ghosts on one infestor it instantly dies, while just spamming snipe will need 3 shots instead of 2.
Anyway if you are worried about snipe spam just plunk overlords over your army, problem solved x3.
Quick comment about snipe as used in the origonal poster's video: If you watch the default, 3 or so ghosts are sitting doing nothing while 3 are doing the shooting...
In the scroll video, all the ghosts are participating... that is the only real difference, and it bothers me that the impact of more units being used is what makes this "broken"....
Just want to reiterate ghost usage in the campaign +100 energy video because that was just like this (except) that the ghosts where doing perfect snipes against multiple targets simultaneously, instead of focusing their snipes on individual targets one at a time.
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
Agreed. Also, that is not a bug that you have to wait. It's the same with all spells, and simply a mechanic of the game. And it's much shorter than 1.5 seconds, closer to 0.5 (adjust this through your control panel).
On February 07 2012 17:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
Why wouldn't it? You are binding on a 1-to-1 scale, so it is just like having custom hotkeys AFAIK
Well because then it would be about what mouse you get, and people would start getting mouses with like 10 extra buttons on them o.o
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
Agreed. Also, that is not a bug that you have to wait. It's the same with all spells, and simply a mechanic of the game. And it's much shorter than 1.5 seconds, closer to 0.5 (adjust this through your control panel).
On February 07 2012 17:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
Why wouldn't it? You are binding on a 1-to-1 scale, so it is just like having custom hotkeys AFAIK
Well because then it would be about what mouse you get, and people would start getting mouses with like 10 extra buttons on them o.o
ok... so if you hold r(the default snipe hotkey) you have to wait around a second till you can start clicking multiple times to snipe multiple times instead of just one snipe... if you dont wait that second the ghosts will be deselected after 1 snipe... I really doubt thats a "game mechanic" if so please explain the purpose of such game mechanic
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
Agreed. Also, that is not a bug that you have to wait. It's the same with all spells, and simply a mechanic of the game. And it's much shorter than 1.5 seconds, closer to 0.5 (adjust this through your control panel).
On February 07 2012 18:32 Grovbolle wrote:
On February 07 2012 17:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
Why wouldn't it? You are binding on a 1-to-1 scale, so it is just like having custom hotkeys AFAIK
Well because then it would be about what mouse you get, and people would start getting mouses with like 10 extra buttons on them o.o
ok... so if you hold r(the default snipe hotkey) you have to wait around a second till you can start clicking multiple times to snipe multiple times instead of just one snipe... if you dont wait that second the ghosts will be deselected after 1 snipe... I really doubt thats a "game mechanic" if so please explain the purpose of such game mechanic
Because otherwise if it's instant, how will the game detect whether or not it's intended to be just 1 snipe, and not for multiple.
I mean yes you could say that it should be keep sniping for as long as you hold it, but then what if you do that, snipe once, then you want to left click on that unit for whatever reason, but you accidentally hold onto the snipe key for too long, and you snipe again?
Either way there will have to be some sort of small delay to clarify your actions.
After a few game were i was tryng this with snipe It's definitly powerfull, but very clunky to do it on the fly, your ghost tend to move command to weird place if you don't do it perfectly.
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
Agreed. Also, that is not a bug that you have to wait. It's the same with all spells, and simply a mechanic of the game. And it's much shorter than 1.5 seconds, closer to 0.5 (adjust this through your control panel).
On February 07 2012 18:32 Grovbolle wrote:
On February 07 2012 17:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
Why wouldn't it? You are binding on a 1-to-1 scale, so it is just like having custom hotkeys AFAIK
Well because then it would be about what mouse you get, and people would start getting mouses with like 10 extra buttons on them o.o
ok... so if you hold r(the default snipe hotkey) you have to wait around a second till you can start clicking multiple times to snipe multiple times instead of just one snipe... if you dont wait that second the ghosts will be deselected after 1 snipe... I really doubt thats a "game mechanic" if so please explain the purpose of such game mechanic
Because otherwise if it's instant, how will the game detect whether or not it's intended to be just 1 snipe, and not for multiple.
I mean yes you could say that it should be keep sniping for as long as you hold it, but then what if you do that, snipe once, then you want to left click on that unit for whatever reason, but you accidentally hold onto the snipe key for too long, and you snipe again?
Either way there will have to be some sort of small delay to clarify your actions.
The delay is not an in-game mechanic at all, it's a delay in Windows. If you hold down a the letter J for example in a text field, it will make a J, delay for a split second, and then begin rapidly repeating. It's a feature to help you from repeating letters when typing. That being said, you can reduce the delay time if you wish, just google "reduce keyboard repeat delay" and you will find a microsoft.com article on how to do it.
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating.
other examples: I use a razer naga, it has software that allows me to set whatever macro I want to any of its 17 buttons, right now I have buttons 1-10 set as hotkeys1-9 and 0, (which, by the way, is factory defaults) the left/right mouse buttons and wheel is set to standard, the last buttons are unused.
I could set a macro that instantly injects all my hatcheries with larvae and then returns the screen exactly as it was when I clicked the button, but I don't and I won't, because that is cheating (in this case because its not a 1:1 ratio), regardless of whether the SC2 client can recognize that it is cheating it is still cheating.
On the other hand, I would argue that switching liftoff from L to Q(or whatever that is more nearby) increases your speed at lifting off by being more accesible; not to a 1:1 rate. Disable that too?
I find it very hard to argue this is a cheat/hack. I don't like what it is, but it doesn't seem to be unfair...
Weird, I find it very easy to argue this is closer to a cheat than not. It's not a 1 to 1 mapping... it's obviously taking away an edge from players that can click fast normally. It is nothing like remapping L to Q... that is a weak justification for doing something that is fairly broken.
Still, Blizzard will probably have to implement a cooldown or something.
On February 06 2012 16:17 GeorgeForeman wrote: How do ppl think this is a hack/cheat? My mouse came with software that lets me assign the keys whatever function I want them to have. I think it's pretty standard stuff. If i want my mousewheel to click, the software makes it click. If I want to use that mouse in SC2, that's fine. There's no interaction with the SC2 software. I don't see how it would be an issue at LAN events, either, since ostensibly you're allowed to use whatever mouse you want, and you're given time to install relevant software/drivers.
Nice find. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on. Don't really see why it wouldn't, since mouse wheels don't serve an important function in the game as-is.
very few argues that its a hack, and those that argue its a cheat is because, while it is a 1:1 ratio (1 action with the wheel corresponds to 1 other action) it allows you to make actions 10-20 times faster than normal thus making it a 1:10 ratio in a way, and that is cheating.
other examples: I use a razer naga, it has software that allows me to set whatever macro I want to any of its 17 buttons, right now I have buttons 1-10 set as hotkeys1-9 and 0, (which, by the way, is factory defaults) the left/right mouse buttons and wheel is set to standard, the last buttons are unused.
I could set a macro that instantly injects all my hatcheries with larvae and then returns the screen exactly as it was when I clicked the button, but I don't and I won't, because that is cheating (in this case because its not a 1:1 ratio), regardless of whether the SC2 client can recognize that it is cheating it is still cheating.
On the other hand, I would argue that switching liftoff from L to Q(or whatever that is more nearby) increases your speed at lifting off by being more accesible; not to a 1:1 rate. Disable that too?
I find it very hard to argue this is a cheat/hack. I don't like what it is, but it doesn't seem to be unfair...
Weird, I find it very easy to argue this is closer to a cheat than not. It's not a 1 to 1 mapping... it's obviously taking away an edge from players that can click fast normally. It is nothing like remapping L to Q... that is a weak justification for doing something that is fairly broken.
Still, Blizzard will probably have to implement a cooldown or something.
By all rights they shouldn't... Snipe in campaign, watch that video and the ghosts use snipe in ways that players cannot possibly... if that is how blizzard wants advertise snipe, then by all means allow players to replicate that... (check the +100 starting energy/ +100 total energy video from science upgrades in campaign)
If you could hold down left mouse button and have it repeat like a keyboard button does that wouldn't be any different than holding down R and making 40 roaches really fast. Using this mouse wheel up and down trick, IMO, is the same as holding down a hotkey and having it repeat, only it's a tiny bit more difficult than just holding down a button.
However it is faster than the repeating of a keyboard. This can be shown in replays by looking at the APM.
Holding R apm goes up to 200-300 using the mousewheel like this i've seen it skyrocket to 2700.
On February 08 2012 06:30 Monox1de wrote: If you could hold down left mouse button and have it repeat like a keyboard button does that wouldn't be any different than holding down R and making 40 roaches really fast. Using this mouse wheel up and down trick, IMO, is the same as holding down a hotkey and having it repeat, only it's a tiny bit more difficult than just holding down a button.
However it is faster than the repeating of a keyboard. This can be shown in replays by looking at the APM.
Holding R apm goes up to 200-300 using the mousewheel like this i've seen it skyrocket to 2700.
I just feel like mentioning that this is per mousewheel, my mouse wheel has the counters spread apart and scrolls relatively slowly in comparison, most of this 2700 apm is clearly wasted apm... its not like its 2700 perfect actions like the marine micro scripts from the automaton 2000 page...
Tested this out, man the infested terrans spawned so much faster, could see a large difference.
Couldn't see quite the same difference with snipes tho? Guess I did something wrong since it looked really good on your videos, but I prefer the old way
I don't get what Am I doing wrong... For some reason my snipers don't seem to shoot at the same time, I have tried holding R, or shift or everything suggesting at the beggining. Does someone else has this issue (I have an Abyssus) or Am I doing it wrong?
Edit: My bad didn't click enough (or move scroll), I did something wrong, but as stated before it would be kind of buggy on some mice so it will require practice?
On February 07 2012 18:57 Afterstar wrote: If blizzard removes this, then they should fix the bug with the snipe key.
The problem: After you select your ghosts,if you Hold "R" (Pressed) and start spamming left click immediately on one or more targets, only one ghost will get the command to snipe once,the system will deselect your group and select the enemy target.
Now do the following, select your ghosts, Hold "R"(Pressed), wait 1.5seconds with R pressed and then spam left click on multiple targets. The snipes will work correctly for all ghosts.
This is a bug,that forces you to have to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast or forces you having to hold SHIFT+R,where you are queueing commands.This method is risky because if one of the targets gets out of range your ghosts will try to reach it, also sometimes ghosts will fire normal shots,even further delaying your sniping.
If you Hold E(Pressed) for EMP and spam left click immediately,it will work correctly without the need of SHIFT or the 1.5second wait.Same for Infested Terrans,Fungal Growth,Storm. Why is Snipe punished,having to wait 1.5seconds before being able to snipe fast?
I don't think there is a problem with ghosts considering how strong ghosts are in the game. I haven`t met a progamer who complained about snipe being too bad to be honest. I admit snipe behaves a bit weird but you can master it nonetheless.
Agreed. Also, that is not a bug that you have to wait. It's the same with all spells, and simply a mechanic of the game. And it's much shorter than 1.5 seconds, closer to 0.5 (adjust this through your control panel).
On February 07 2012 18:32 Grovbolle wrote:
On February 07 2012 17:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Is this allowed in tournaments? Pretty sure you can't rebind keys to scroll or other buttons on the mouse other than left and right click right? or no?
Why wouldn't it? You are binding on a 1-to-1 scale, so it is just like having custom hotkeys AFAIK
Well because then it would be about what mouse you get, and people would start getting mouses with like 10 extra buttons on them o.o
ok... so if you hold r(the default snipe hotkey) you have to wait around a second till you can start clicking multiple times to snipe multiple times instead of just one snipe... if you dont wait that second the ghosts will be deselected after 1 snipe... I really doubt thats a "game mechanic" if so please explain the purpose of such game mechanic
Its pretty much the exact same mechanic as if youd just hold down a button right now. Any button, like "hhhhhhhh". Notice how it first types one "h", waits 1 second and then starts adding on more? Its so the game knows not to click the button 3 times in a row for you when you only meant to click it once. While this wouldn't make any difference when it comes to spellcasting (as clicking a spell 3 times instead of only once doesn't actually do anything), the whole game is based around it. And making 3 sets of zerglings when you only meant to make one would be worse than having to wait 1 second before mass spamming snipe or infestors (especially when you can work around it using shift)
lol I allways thought it was pretty common knowledge that stuff like this is possible. Anyway, I don't think we should allow this. It would only make the game less interesting and it adds absolutely nothing.
Wow thanks!! I foresee snipe becoming very op. Say goodbye to snipe folks.
Edit: I heard that you can turn down your keyboard delay(h.....hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh) in the control panel. I don't know if this helps at all but why not. =D
On February 08 2012 09:46 mutantmagnet wrote: Someone should see if this makes any of the Void Ray Tricks practical now.
Messed around with it and I am not seeing a way to make this work (maybe I am approaching it wrong?). You are still limited on how fast you can queue up attacks on individual units so spamming with the scroll/click is not better than shift queuing up the voids.... The fact that scroll click simply makes it possible to click faster does not benefit one shooting units like in the vods. Ghosts snipe on the other hand can/is cast multiple times on a single unit (due to the obvious fact that snipe does X damage and units health is considerably more than an individual ghosts snipe). Since its an ability that benefits from spamming on a single unit/location this scroll/click method works quite well.... Not really sure about other applications...
Edit: to clarify, im not saying this must be patched out, but if they do decide to, there are good and bad ways to go about it.
I'm curious if/how blizzard will address this, I see a few options in the event they find it too much stronger than normal spam clicking:
Acceptable solutions by blizzard:
Rework abilities so they no longer benefit from mass click spam on 1 target.
Rework the abilities so they require the equivalent of mass click spam to use effectively, but make it not require remapping anything. Something like hold the spell button down while holding mouse button down to spam cast(with any spell). This is probably the best option.
Acceptable solutions by tournament organizers:
Rule prohibiting this specific technique, I feel this is an option for tournaments, but is unenforceable for blizzard, much like some glitches back in brood war.
Bad ideas:
Arbitrary click rate cap, either it would be too high to affect the scroll issue, or low enough that it would interfere with normal play.
Bundle input drivers w/ sc2, that you are required to use with sc2. (probably a bad idea, because of mice that remap internally, and because of the extra hassle involved in recreating the settings you're already used to.) Might be a good idea to ship custom drivers anyway, but make them optional.
There are a myriad of options with this, have been playing around with it. You can use scroll up for base camera and left click as scroll down and you can inject all hatches instantly after practicing it a couple times, also already mentioned splitting is insane and you can get a ridiculous amount of APM on the counter by spamming the right click thing. I can see this becoming illegal though due to the obvious advantages over someone clicking.
I feel that shift + snipe (single click) should snipe continuously until interrupted or out of energy; and snipe should be balanced around that. This would remove the need for the scroll wheel trick, as well as making snipe a less clunky and less apm intensive spell. As it is, it is extremely apm intensive to click 6 times for each broodlord, and 12 times for each ultra. Try macro'ing behind that, while target firing with seige tanks to avoid friendlyfire with broodlings and focusing banelings etc.
Maybe that's not a big deal for badass pro-gamers, but Blizzard does want us lowly humans to play the game as well, right?
On February 08 2012 06:30 Monox1de wrote: If you could hold down left mouse button and have it repeat like a keyboard button does that wouldn't be any different than holding down R and making 40 roaches really fast. Using this mouse wheel up and down trick, IMO, is the same as holding down a hotkey and having it repeat, only it's a tiny bit more difficult than just holding down a button.
However it is faster than the repeating of a keyboard. This can be shown in replays by looking at the APM.
Holding R apm goes up to 200-300 using the mousewheel like this i've seen it skyrocket to 2700.
I just feel like mentioning that this is per mousewheel, my mouse wheel has the counters spread apart and scrolls relatively slowly in comparison, most of this 2700 apm is clearly wasted apm... its not like its 2700 perfect actions like the marine micro scripts from the automaton 2000 page...
Obvoiusly the 2700 isn't effective apm..Maybe 10 percent of the actions are actually doing something.
I don't see why the majority of the community feels this is cheap/cheating. I remember a similar discussion about the keyboard repeating and how some considered this to be cheap/cheating as well.
I just don't agree at all. It make it easier to do said action. Just like the command center/ nexus/ hatchery being able to rally workers to the mineral line made things easier. People argued that this made the game less interesting / too easy. But i feel it just clears up more room for people to focus on other aspects of the game instead of honing their physical skills.
I feel that this is very similar. People can focus more on positioning or other things rather than how fast they are clicking out the terrans or snipes.
A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files.
On February 08 2012 14:42 SoulWager wrote: A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files.
Would any of the examples I mentioned though be allowed in any tournament be it either online or offline?
No.
People need to stop trying to find "semi-legal" loopholes to make up for deficiencies in their play and just get better.
On February 08 2012 14:42 SoulWager wrote: A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files.
Would any of the examples I mentioned though be allowed in any tournament be it either online or offline?
No.
People need to stop trying to find "semi-legal" loopholes to make up for deficiencies in their play and just get better.
It doesn't matter if any of the examples you mentioned would be allowed in tournaments, none of those examples are in any way relevant to the techniques in this thread. Yes people that rebind their scroll wheel have an advantage over those that don't, but the same is true for people that extensively customize and individualize their hotkeys and mouse speed/acceleration/polling rate(by the way, i've never heard of an event prohibiting the use of third party mouse drivers). The question is whether or not the technique breaks the game balance, and if it does, how best to fix it. I am not convinced snipe or infested terran is THAT much stronger with the scroll technique(you could already burst snipe or burst out infesteds with waypoints), however the amount of time and and risk to execute is significantly reduced.
i believe this is not a problem for infested terrans
however, it does seem slightly overpowered for ghosts only because right now in pro games the max rate of snipe fire is maybe 10-15 a second, which is kinda overpowered but whatever if zerg 200food swarms enough with broodlords while also keeping 20 overlords surrounding his broodlords to make it hard to snipe to target, zerg can sort of deal with it with that tactic
sure snipe seems sort of overpowered but you gotta realize fungal growth is extremely powerful against clumped units too in low caster numbers and 2 full energy infestors with 4 nice fungals can deal loads of damage to an army much more than 2ghosts. the problem is in a perfect world 20 infestors cannot stack their damage the way 20ghosts can.
with micro-bot level APM, 20ghosts can unload all their energy in a second and obliterate 80food worth of zerg army in a second, but 20infestors cannot do that with fungal growth because fungal growth is damage over time, and snipe is instant
so infestors compared to ghosts are not able to be culmulatively more powerful. 2 infestors will be almost as effective as 15 infestors in a massive battle when it comes to fungalling (assuming they arent sniped. im just talking pure energy effectiveness)
one fungal growth can deal 300 damage for 75 energy. very effective against vikings/marines (broodlords main counter). 4-1 ratio.
Snipe does 45 damage for 25 energy, roughly 2-1 ratio
so infestors in low amounts are better than ghosts in low amounts. but 20ghosts in perfect world can unload all their energy instantly for loads of damage while infestors only do Damager-Over-Time with fungal so infestors cannot do that
I think presently mass ghosts lategame as zerg is completely beatable, you just have to be smart about it and do the following tactic
Step 1) have about 12 broodlords clumped up and stacked which is possible with micro. you have to keep re-stacking them while a-moving. a-move them over the ground so they can have ling/infestor support when needed
Step 3) have 20 overlords with a bunch of overseers also clumped up and have them in the same group as the broodlords. when broodlords attack overlords are there to provide cover and make it hard for ghosts to snipe the broods
Step 3) have 10 infestors ready, 2 behind the broodlord army and 8 even further behind burrowed and ready to have 2 replacements whenever needed. if your front 2 infestors get EMP'ed, pull them back and bring in 2 fresh infestors to hopefully try again
Step 4) as you A-move the broodlords over the ground, they should be on top of overseers which have sight range greater than snipe. broodlord attackrange is greater than snipe, so when ghosts come in the broodlords should automatically start shredding them before they can get off too many snipes. also since a cloud of overlords is over the broodlords its even harder to snipe the broods (since overlords take target priority).
Step 5) keep the 2 infestors near the broodlords so When vikings try to use 9range to snipe broodlords nopefully you can get off a good fungal. a good fungal will take out a bunch of vikings with followup fungals
Step 6) also keep a few queens underneath the broodlords to provide anti air damage with range7. almost better to use queens than corrupters but of course you will also have a few corrupters. when you can try to use overlords to poop creep for queens
Step 7) keep your massive swarm of ling/baneling right near your broodlords. as your broodlords a-move across the map eventually you will reach the terrans siegetank line. broodlords are the counter to siegetanks and the terran will be forced to unsiege or be destroyed. do not engage with ling/bane unless the siegetanks are unsieged which the broodlords should force
Step 8) group things however you wish, but ill just brainstorm i think the best way to group would be broodlords+overlords+overseers+queens as one group and you constantly clump up this group and a-move slowly across the map. Next your 10infestors will be one group however in battle you just select 2 infestors and have them follow the broodlords, then you select them manually and try to spellcast fungals if you need, and if the front 2 get emp'ed you pull them back and select 2 more infestors to follow the broods. Then banelings/lings/roaches/whatever else you have is your third group that you constantly command to be by the broodlords. so thats 3 groups needed for your main lategame army, and then you have whatever forces around the map defending your expansions you can group those to wahtever you want
The 8step plan above should allow zerg to deal with ghosts okay, because ghosts snipe is only roughly the same range as broodlords, and if the broodlords are STACKED/CLUMPED (which is possible with micro) then by the time a group of ghosts come in to try and snipe they will have already been under heavy fire by the 12 broodlords. So in this scenario, broodlords vs ghosts/snipe becomes a fairly even battle or actually it goes into the broodlords favor
I would call the trade off between infestors being stronger than ghosts in low numbers even and balanced, however i just realized, terran also has hunter seeker missile. i swear to god that thing shouldnt have been buffed. hunter seeker missile is actually in many ways more powerful than fungal every time ive seen that thing dish out damage its seemed to be insanely overpowered.
and i think my 8step plan would perfectly counter ghosts, if hunter seeker missile didnt exist. However sadly, hunter seeker missile does exist, and god is that thing overpowered. If you try to use my clumping/stacking strategy against hunter seeker missile you will could lose your entire army to 4 ravens and those missiles travel about as fast as mutalisks now.
so yeah, just when i thought snipe would be balanced even with this tactic, im reminded of hunter seeker missile which counters the only zerg counter to mass ghosts endgame
On February 08 2012 18:23 roymarthyup wrote: i believe this is not a problem for infested terrans
however, it does seem slightly overpowered for ghosts only because right now in pro games the max rate of snipe fire is maybe 10-15 a second, which is kinda overpowered but whatever if zerg 200food swarms enough with broodlords while also keeping 20 overlords surrounding his broodlords to make it hard to snipe to target, zerg can sort of deal with it with that tactic
sure snipe seems sort of overpowered but you gotta realize fungal growth is extremely powerful against clumped units too in low caster numbers and 2 full energy infestors with 4 nice fungals can deal loads of damage to an army much more than 2ghosts. the problem is in a perfect world 20 infestors cannot stack their damage the way 20ghosts can.
with micro-bot level APM, 20ghosts can unload all their energy in a second and obliterate 80food worth of zerg army in a second, but 20infestors cannot do that with fungal growth because fungal growth is damage over time, and snipe is instant
so infestors compared to ghosts are not able to be culmulatively more powerful. 2 infestors will be almost as effective as 15 infestors in a massive battle when it comes to fungalling (assuming they arent sniped. im just talking pure energy effectiveness)
one fungal growth can deal 300 damage for 75 energy. very effective against vikings/marines (broodlords main counter). 4-1 ratio.
Snipe does 45 damage for 25 energy, roughly 2-1 ratio
so infestors in low amounts are better than ghosts in low amounts. but 20ghosts in perfect world can unload all their energy instantly for loads of damage while infestors only do Damager-Over-Time with fungal so infestors cannot do that
I think presently mass ghosts lategame as zerg is completely beatable, you just have to be smart about it and do the following tactic
Step 1) have about 12 broodlords clumped up and stacked which is possible with micro. you have to keep re-stacking them while a-moving. a-move them over the ground so they can have ling/infestor support when needed
Step 3) have 20 overlords with a bunch of overseers also clumped up and have them in the same group as the broodlords. when broodlords attack overlords are there to provide cover and make it hard for ghosts to snipe the broods
Step 3) have 10 infestors ready, 2 behind the broodlord army and 8 even further behind burrowed and ready to have 2 replacements whenever needed. if your front 2 infestors get EMP'ed, pull them back and bring in 2 fresh infestors to hopefully try again
Step 4) as you A-move the broodlords over the ground, they should be on top of overseers which have sight range greater than snipe. broodlord attackrange is greater than snipe, so when ghosts come in the broodlords should automatically start shredding them before they can get off too many snipes. also since a cloud of overlords is over the broodlords its even harder to snipe the broods (since overlords take target priority).
Step 5) keep the 2 infestors near the broodlords so When vikings try to use 9range to snipe broodlords nopefully you can get off a good fungal. a good fungal will take out a bunch of vikings with followup fungals
Step 6) also keep a few queens underneath the broodlords to provide anti air damage with range7. almost better to use queens than corrupters but of course you will also have a few corrupters. when you can try to use overlords to poop creep for queens
Step 7) keep your massive swarm of ling/baneling right near your broodlords. as your broodlords a-move across the map eventually you will reach the terrans siegetank line. broodlords are the counter to siegetanks and the terran will be forced to unsiege or be destroyed. do not engage with ling/bane unless the siegetanks are unsieged which the broodlords should force
Step 8) group things however you wish, but ill just brainstorm i think the best way to group would be broodlords+overlords+overseers+queens as one group and you constantly clump up this group and a-move slowly across the map. Next your 10infestors will be one group however in battle you just select 2 infestors and have them follow the broodlords, then you select them manually and try to spellcast fungals if you need, and if the front 2 get emp'ed you pull them back and select 2 more infestors to follow the broods. Then banelings/lings/roaches/whatever else you have is your third group that you constantly command to be by the broodlords. so thats 3 groups needed for your main lategame army, and then you have whatever forces around the map defending your expansions you can group those to wahtever you want
The 8step plan above should allow zerg to deal with ghosts okay, because ghosts snipe is only roughly the same range as broodlords, and if the broodlords are STACKED/CLUMPED (which is possible with micro) then by the time a group of ghosts come in to try and snipe they will have already been under heavy fire by the 12 broodlords. So in this scenario, broodlords vs ghosts/snipe becomes a fairly even battle or actually it goes into the broodlords favor
I would call the trade off between infestors being stronger than ghosts in low numbers even and balanced, however i just realized, terran also has hunter seeker missile. i swear to god that thing shouldnt have been buffed. hunter seeker missile is actually in many ways more powerful than fungal every time ive seen that thing dish out damage its seemed to be insanely overpowered.
and i think my 8step plan would perfectly counter ghosts, if hunter seeker missile didnt exist. However sadly, hunter seeker missile does exist, and god is that thing overpowered. If you try to use my clumping/stacking strategy against hunter seeker missile you will could lose your entire army to 4 ravens and those missiles travel about as fast as mutalisks now.
so yeah, just when i thought snipe would be balanced even with this tactic, im reminded of hunter seeker missile which counters the only zerg counter to mass ghosts endgame
Having to do ALL of this when the terran simply scrolls his mouse wheel isn't exactly equal micro on both fronts, the amount of effort it takes to negate/lessen how strong snipe is with this scroll wheel thing isn't at all balanced, the damage output is stupid with this.
On February 08 2012 18:23 roymarthyup wrote: i believe this is not a problem for infested terrans
however, it does seem slightly overpowered for ghosts only because right now in pro games the max rate of snipe fire is maybe 10-15 a second, which is kinda overpowered but whatever if zerg 200food swarms enough with broodlords while also keeping 20 overlords surrounding his broodlords to make it hard to snipe to target, zerg can sort of deal with it with that tactic
sure snipe seems sort of overpowered but you gotta realize fungal growth is extremely powerful against clumped units too in low caster numbers and 2 full energy infestors with 4 nice fungals can deal loads of damage to an army much more than 2ghosts. the problem is in a perfect world 20 infestors cannot stack their damage the way 20ghosts can.
with micro-bot level APM, 20ghosts can unload all their energy in a second and obliterate 80food worth of zerg army in a second, but 20infestors cannot do that with fungal growth because fungal growth is damage over time, and snipe is instant
so infestors compared to ghosts are not able to be culmulatively more powerful. 2 infestors will be almost as effective as 15 infestors in a massive battle when it comes to fungalling (assuming they arent sniped. im just talking pure energy effectiveness)
one fungal growth can deal 300 damage for 75 energy. very effective against vikings/marines (broodlords main counter). 4-1 ratio.
Snipe does 45 damage for 25 energy, roughly 2-1 ratio
so infestors in low amounts are better than ghosts in low amounts. but 20ghosts in perfect world can unload all their energy instantly for loads of damage while infestors only do Damager-Over-Time with fungal so infestors cannot do that
I think presently mass ghosts lategame as zerg is completely beatable, you just have to be smart about it and do the following tactic
Step 1) have about 12 broodlords clumped up and stacked which is possible with micro. you have to keep re-stacking them while a-moving. a-move them over the ground so they can have ling/infestor support when needed
Step 3) have 20 overlords with a bunch of overseers also clumped up and have them in the same group as the broodlords. when broodlords attack overlords are there to provide cover and make it hard for ghosts to snipe the broods
Step 3) have 10 infestors ready, 2 behind the broodlord army and 8 even further behind burrowed and ready to have 2 replacements whenever needed. if your front 2 infestors get EMP'ed, pull them back and bring in 2 fresh infestors to hopefully try again
Step 4) as you A-move the broodlords over the ground, they should be on top of overseers which have sight range greater than snipe. broodlord attackrange is greater than snipe, so when ghosts come in the broodlords should automatically start shredding them before they can get off too many snipes. also since a cloud of overlords is over the broodlords its even harder to snipe the broods (since overlords take target priority).
Step 5) keep the 2 infestors near the broodlords so When vikings try to use 9range to snipe broodlords nopefully you can get off a good fungal. a good fungal will take out a bunch of vikings with followup fungals
Step 6) also keep a few queens underneath the broodlords to provide anti air damage with range7. almost better to use queens than corrupters but of course you will also have a few corrupters. when you can try to use overlords to poop creep for queens
Step 7) keep your massive swarm of ling/baneling right near your broodlords. as your broodlords a-move across the map eventually you will reach the terrans siegetank line. broodlords are the counter to siegetanks and the terran will be forced to unsiege or be destroyed. do not engage with ling/bane unless the siegetanks are unsieged which the broodlords should force
Step 8) group things however you wish, but ill just brainstorm i think the best way to group would be broodlords+overlords+overseers+queens as one group and you constantly clump up this group and a-move slowly across the map. Next your 10infestors will be one group however in battle you just select 2 infestors and have them follow the broodlords, then you select them manually and try to spellcast fungals if you need, and if the front 2 get emp'ed you pull them back and select 2 more infestors to follow the broods. Then banelings/lings/roaches/whatever else you have is your third group that you constantly command to be by the broodlords. so thats 3 groups needed for your main lategame army, and then you have whatever forces around the map defending your expansions you can group those to wahtever you want
The 8step plan above should allow zerg to deal with ghosts okay, because ghosts snipe is only roughly the same range as broodlords, and if the broodlords are STACKED/CLUMPED (which is possible with micro) then by the time a group of ghosts come in to try and snipe they will have already been under heavy fire by the 12 broodlords. So in this scenario, broodlords vs ghosts/snipe becomes a fairly even battle or actually it goes into the broodlords favor
I would call the trade off between infestors being stronger than ghosts in low numbers even and balanced, however i just realized, terran also has hunter seeker missile. i swear to god that thing shouldnt have been buffed. hunter seeker missile is actually in many ways more powerful than fungal every time ive seen that thing dish out damage its seemed to be insanely overpowered.
and i think my 8step plan would perfectly counter ghosts, if hunter seeker missile didnt exist. However sadly, hunter seeker missile does exist, and god is that thing overpowered. If you try to use my clumping/stacking strategy against hunter seeker missile you will could lose your entire army to 4 ravens and those missiles travel about as fast as mutalisks now.
so yeah, just when i thought snipe would be balanced even with this tactic, im reminded of hunter seeker missile which counters the only zerg counter to mass ghosts endgame
Having to do ALL of this when the terran simply scrolls his mouse wheel isn't exactly equal micro on both fronts, the amount of effort it takes to negate/lessen how strong snipe is with this scroll wheel thing isn't at all balanced, the damage output is stupid with this.
while i see what your saying, i actually was talking about the game and counter ideas WITHOUT this wheelscroll stuff
right now at the master level, ghosts are sniping at about 10-15 snipes a second, 15 being what i see in pro GSL code S games but i see what seems like 10 per second in normal playhem tournament games
so pretty much, i was trying to say that RIGHT NOW ghosts are already sniping at about 10-15 times a second. with this it would increase to essentially 50 snipes a second limited only by how accurately you scroll your mouse over screen units. but regardless, i was saying that 10-15 snipes per second is still super strong and i was brainstorming ideas on how to counter the current level of 10-15 that zergs have to deal with
but, the problem is, as i stated, that my proposed counter idea doesnt even work because i forgot to include hunter seeker missiles. hunter seeker missiles are in many way the most overpowered thing terran has. 4 of those destroys almost your whole army or brings it into the red. clumping up broodlords to counter snipe is just a dream, because hunter seeker missiles now pretty much fly as fast as than mutas and basically 1shot your whole army
Played vs my friend on Shakuras, was at a 60 supply lead with 8 broodlords and his 9 ghosts killed ALL of them in 1.5 seconds, with 8 broodlings seeing the light of day. It was not a fun experience.
I'm not gonna go rage mode over this, as it is hard to prevent, but yeh it is ridiculously strong for ghosts, and i imagine in ZvZ it may be troublesome.
I have to say, I've been using this for warp ins as protoss, and especially endgame its extremely useful. I actually mapped it to double click so its even faster and it saves me a good two seconds on each warp in. As to the snipe situation it does seem rather imbalanced, but I hope they keep it just for protoss's sake
On February 06 2012 15:20 Kaitlin wrote: There's fast and then there's fast. Below is a screenshot from a game I played long ago. I don't use the mousewheel. Instead I have my 'm' button on my keyboard set to 'Mouse Left Click', so I just hold it down and away it goes. I don't know if it's legal for 'offline' tournaments, but I play at home and since it's equivalent to holding down 'Z' to make Zerglings, which Blizzard offers as a game tip, I'm not concerned about it being illegal.
edit: As far as tournaments, if they allow you to bring your own keyboards, and the related drivers, this is nothing more than changing what a single key on your keyboard means. It's not a macro - it's a single keystroke change. If that's allowed in tourneys, then ... It also helps for Protoss warp-ins. I've warped in quite a few Zealots quite quickly. Generally spiking at about 5k apm. The 20k was a result of a lot of infestors
I dont think enough attention has been given to this post.
On February 08 2012 14:42 SoulWager wrote: A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files.
Would any of the examples I mentioned though be allowed in any tournament be it either online or offline?
No.
People need to stop trying to find "semi-legal" loopholes to make up for deficiencies in their play and just get better.
People have been using fancy tricks that may be considered "semi-legal" since Brood War to improve their play. Even pros.
Hell, a lot of the most notorious shit done by pros in BW were/are considered "bugs"
On February 08 2012 19:56 gplayer wrote: How about dropping on the move with this trick? Does it work instantly? :D
Nope. If you click on the unit in the medivac to be dropped, it gets queued up to be dropped (turns grey), but there's a timed drop animation for each one.
I hope this gets removed. I tried this with my G50 and It's quite ridiculous really. (for those that don't know a G50 mouse allows you to remove the break on a scroll making a simple flick enough to drop down all your infested terrans).
On February 08 2012 22:37 TSBspartacus wrote: I have to say, I've been using this for warp ins as protoss, and especially endgame its extremely useful. I actually mapped it to double click so its even faster and it saves me a good two seconds on each warp in. As to the snipe situation it does seem rather imbalanced, but I hope they keep it just for protoss's sake
Double click is not allowed in blizzard ToS, as you are doing two actions in game with 1 action on your mouse. Might as well just use normal click if you don't want to get your account suspended.
On February 06 2012 15:20 Kaitlin wrote: There's fast and then there's fast. Below is a screenshot from a game I played long ago. I don't use the mousewheel. Instead I have my 'm' button on my keyboard set to 'Mouse Left Click', so I just hold it down and away it goes. I don't know if it's legal for 'offline' tournaments, but I play at home and since it's equivalent to holding down 'Z' to make Zerglings, which Blizzard offers as a game tip, I'm not concerned about it being illegal.
edit: As far as tournaments, if they allow you to bring your own keyboards, and the related drivers, this is nothing more than changing what a single key on your keyboard means. It's not a macro - it's a single keystroke change. If that's allowed in tourneys, then ... It also helps for Protoss warp-ins. I've warped in quite a few Zealots quite quickly. Generally spiking at about 5k apm. The 20k was a result of a lot of infestors
I dont think enough attention has been given to this post.
On February 08 2012 14:42 SoulWager wrote: A browser with your opponent's stream in it isn't considered a bannable offense by blizzard. The only third party programs blizzard cares about are those that read or modify sc2 memory, network data, or game files.
Would any of the examples I mentioned though be allowed in any tournament be it either online or offline?
No.
People need to stop trying to find "semi-legal" loopholes to make up for deficiencies in their play and just get better.
People have been using fancy tricks that may be considered "semi-legal" since Brood War to improve their play. Even pros.
Hell, a lot of the most notorious shit done by pros in BW were/are considered "bugs"
This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
On February 09 2012 00:39 Barrin wrote: make the snipe animation longer (if anything...?)
like, I mean.. they're sniping.
I don't know if you've ever tried to snipe something with a sniper rifle... well, I haven't either. But I do know that the aiming part takes quite a bit longer than any other kind of gun.
It's also the future and shit. We can argue all day about what's possible.
On February 08 2012 16:12 xxpack09 wrote: So if people can agree that this is an issue, then why have smartcasting in the first place? That's the bigger issue.
On February 08 2012 21:36 Camlito wrote: Played vs my friend on Shakuras, was at a 60 supply lead with 8 broodlords and his 9 ghosts killed ALL of them in 1.5 seconds, with 8 broodlings seeing the light of day. It was not a fun experience.
I'm not gonna go rage mode over this, as it is hard to prevent, but yeh it is ridiculously strong for ghosts, and i imagine in ZvZ it may be troublesome.
9 Ghosts can fire 9 snipes at once, snipe has a cooldown of 0.5 seconds so in 1.5 seconds they can snipe 27 times.
A broodlord has 225 life, which means that you need 225/45 = 5 snipes per broodlords, this means that killing off 8 broodlords takes 40 snipes.
The question now is how did your friend cheat to squeeze aut 13 additional snipes or is your perception of the battle you stated wrong?
I am fine if people want to share their experiences but please don't be fooled by your feeling of despair, try to instead focus on what actually happened.
On February 08 2012 18:23 roymarthyup wrote: i believe this is not a problem for infested terrans
however, it does seem slightly overpowered for ghosts only because right now in pro games the max rate of snipe fire is maybe 10-15 a second, which is kinda overpowered but whatever if zerg 200food swarms enough with broodlords while also keeping 20 overlords surrounding his broodlords to make it hard to snipe to target, zerg can sort of deal with it with that tactic
sure snipe seems sort of overpowered but you gotta realize fungal growth is extremely powerful against clumped units too in low caster numbers and 2 full energy infestors with 4 nice fungals can deal loads of damage to an army much more than 2ghosts. the problem is in a perfect world 20 infestors cannot stack their damage the way 20ghosts can.
with micro-bot level APM, 20ghosts can unload all their energy in a second and obliterate 80food worth of zerg army in a second, but 20infestors cannot do that with fungal growth because fungal growth is damage over time, and snipe is instant
so infestors compared to ghosts are not able to be culmulatively more powerful. 2 infestors will be almost as effective as 15 infestors in a massive battle when it comes to fungalling (assuming they arent sniped. im just talking pure energy effectiveness)
one fungal growth can deal 300 damage for 75 energy. very effective against vikings/marines (broodlords main counter). 4-1 ratio.
Snipe does 45 damage for 25 energy, roughly 2-1 ratio
so infestors in low amounts are better than ghosts in low amounts. but 20ghosts in perfect world can unload all their energy instantly for loads of damage while infestors only do Damager-Over-Time with fungal so infestors cannot do that
I think presently mass ghosts lategame as zerg is completely beatable, you just have to be smart about it and do the following tactic
Step 1) have about 12 broodlords clumped up and stacked which is possible with micro. you have to keep re-stacking them while a-moving. a-move them over the ground so they can have ling/infestor support when needed
Step 3) have 20 overlords with a bunch of overseers also clumped up and have them in the same group as the broodlords. when broodlords attack overlords are there to provide cover and make it hard for ghosts to snipe the broods
Step 3) have 10 infestors ready, 2 behind the broodlord army and 8 even further behind burrowed and ready to have 2 replacements whenever needed. if your front 2 infestors get EMP'ed, pull them back and bring in 2 fresh infestors to hopefully try again
Step 4) as you A-move the broodlords over the ground, they should be on top of overseers which have sight range greater than snipe. broodlord attackrange is greater than snipe, so when ghosts come in the broodlords should automatically start shredding them before they can get off too many snipes. also since a cloud of overlords is over the broodlords its even harder to snipe the broods (since overlords take target priority).
Step 5) keep the 2 infestors near the broodlords so When vikings try to use 9range to snipe broodlords nopefully you can get off a good fungal. a good fungal will take out a bunch of vikings with followup fungals
Step 6) also keep a few queens underneath the broodlords to provide anti air damage with range7. almost better to use queens than corrupters but of course you will also have a few corrupters. when you can try to use overlords to poop creep for queens
Step 7) keep your massive swarm of ling/baneling right near your broodlords. as your broodlords a-move across the map eventually you will reach the terrans siegetank line. broodlords are the counter to siegetanks and the terran will be forced to unsiege or be destroyed. do not engage with ling/bane unless the siegetanks are unsieged which the broodlords should force
Step 8) group things however you wish, but ill just brainstorm i think the best way to group would be broodlords+overlords+overseers+queens as one group and you constantly clump up this group and a-move slowly across the map. Next your 10infestors will be one group however in battle you just select 2 infestors and have them follow the broodlords, then you select them manually and try to spellcast fungals if you need, and if the front 2 get emp'ed you pull them back and select 2 more infestors to follow the broods. Then banelings/lings/roaches/whatever else you have is your third group that you constantly command to be by the broodlords. so thats 3 groups needed for your main lategame army, and then you have whatever forces around the map defending your expansions you can group those to wahtever you want
The 8step plan above should allow zerg to deal with ghosts okay, because ghosts snipe is only roughly the same range as broodlords, and if the broodlords are STACKED/CLUMPED (which is possible with micro) then by the time a group of ghosts come in to try and snipe they will have already been under heavy fire by the 12 broodlords. So in this scenario, broodlords vs ghosts/snipe becomes a fairly even battle or actually it goes into the broodlords favor
I would call the trade off between infestors being stronger than ghosts in low numbers even and balanced, however i just realized, terran also has hunter seeker missile. i swear to god that thing shouldnt have been buffed. hunter seeker missile is actually in many ways more powerful than fungal every time ive seen that thing dish out damage its seemed to be insanely overpowered.
and i think my 8step plan would perfectly counter ghosts, if hunter seeker missile didnt exist. However sadly, hunter seeker missile does exist, and god is that thing overpowered. If you try to use my clumping/stacking strategy against hunter seeker missile you will could lose your entire army to 4 ravens and those missiles travel about as fast as mutalisks now.
so yeah, just when i thought snipe would be balanced even with this tactic, im reminded of hunter seeker missile which counters the only zerg counter to mass ghosts endgame
Having to do ALL of this when the terran simply scrolls his mouse wheel isn't exactly equal micro on both fronts, the amount of effort it takes to negate/lessen how strong snipe is with this scroll wheel thing isn't at all balanced, the damage output is stupid with this.
If you guys want to B$%^& about micro, then i say marine splitting, because terran's already go to great pains to protect themselves from clingy jealous banelings, and that takes considerable micro skills... is it fair to say banelings are overpowered because of the micro demands on terran players in order to fight against them? Just sayin...
also, if blizzard takes offense to this, they are terrible people, not because of balance, but because they advertised snipe as having this potential (albut in campaign videos: the +100 starting energy video to be sure)... so banning techniques that allow players to replicate the campaign snipe video is kinda BM!
it's sort of like saying: "Lookie, this is what snipe can do, but if you figure out how to do it? we're gonna prevent you from using that technique!!! :DDD have a nice day!!!" ~make-believe blizzard
On February 08 2012 13:53 Rockafella wrote: There are a myriad of options with this, have been playing around with it. You can use scroll up for base camera and left click as scroll down and you can inject all hatches instantly after practicing it a couple times, also already mentioned splitting is insane and you can get a ridiculous amount of APM on the counter by spamming the right click thing. I can see this becoming illegal though due to the obvious advantages over someone clicking.
On February 08 2012 13:53 Rockafella wrote: There are a myriad of options with this, have been playing around with it. You can use scroll up for base camera and left click as scroll down and you can inject all hatches instantly after practicing it a couple times, also already mentioned splitting is insane and you can get a ridiculous amount of APM on the counter by spamming the right click thing. I can see this becoming illegal though due to the obvious advantages over someone clicking.
Eh, I don't think so. It's a muta stacking type BW bug moreso than one that needs fixing (lol teleporting drones). It's an advanced technique that people can use if they can be bothered doing so.
If you guys want to B$%^& about micro, then i say marine splitting, because terran's already go to great pains to protect themselves from clingy jealous banelings, and that takes considerable micro skills... is it fair to say banelings are overpowered because of the micro demands on terran players in order to fight against them? Just sayin...
also, if blizzard takes offense to this, they are terrible people, not because of balance, but because they advertised snipe as having this potential (albut in campaign videos: the +100 starting energy video to be sure)... so banning techniques that allow players to replicate the campaign snipe video is kinda BM!
it's sort of like saying: "Lookie, this is what snipe can do, but if you figure out how to do it? we're gonna prevent you from using that technique!!! :DDD have a nice day!!!" ~make-believe blizzard
lol.
every damn terran bitches about marines being impossible to micro against banelings and yes, of course it's hard but it's supposed to be. and no, no good terran players do de facto think that banelings are overpowered. but toss and z has tough micro too. do you think it's easy to split broods against a vortex? do you know how retardedly slow brood lords are? Brood lords have a movement speed of 1.4062 with an acceleration of 1.063 whereas marines have a speed of 2.25 (with stim they can move 50% more quickly) and an a of 1000. Now you may say that banelings come alot faster than a vortex and yep of course i can't disagree with that but if you look at it it might just even out? and what about getting a good spread of roach/hydra? is that really easy? and what about throwing fungals about marines without losing your infestors? do you know how fucking squishy infestors are?
however, i think terran might have the hardest late-game micro overall. sniping is kind of hard i guess (even if its incredibly good) and focusing colossi with vikings etc is of course harder than microing the colossi themselves. although i do think zerg has some hard late-game micro too since infestors are quite hard to keep alive (and also the already mentioned broods).
If this would be allowed in tournaments i'd fucking kill myself. It would be impossible to be on hive tech against a terran. "yeah but you benefit from it too! you can throw infested terrans much faster!!!!!". big fucking deal. what change does a couple of seconds mean when your brood lords, infestors and ultras won't do a single shit.
i do, in alot of my zvt:s, opt to go for brood lord/infestor/ling late game. If this would be allowed and not patched (so that people can't do it on ladder - don't know if that's doable though...) it would ruin the ZvT late game completely. and you can't disagree with that. sure you can say that marine splitting is harder than all zerg micro but just don't say machine gun snipes wouldn't ruin the late game of ZvT. cause it would.
Edit: also you don't have to censor your curse words on TL. this is not SOPA-land.
If you guys want to B$%^& about micro, then i say marine splitting, because terran's already go to great pains to protect themselves from clingy jealous banelings, and that takes considerable micro skills... is it fair to say banelings are overpowered because of the micro demands on terran players in order to fight against them? Just sayin...
also, if blizzard takes offense to this, they are terrible people, not because of balance, but because they advertised snipe as having this potential (albut in campaign videos: the +100 starting energy video to be sure)... so banning techniques that allow players to replicate the campaign snipe video is kinda BM!
it's sort of like saying: "Lookie, this is what snipe can do, but if you figure out how to do it? we're gonna prevent you from using that technique!!! :DDD have a nice day!!!" ~make-believe blizzard
lol.
every damn terran bitches about marines being impossible to micro against banelings and yes, of course it's hard but it's supposed to be. and no, no good terran players do de facto think that banelings are overpowered. but toss and z has tough micro too. do you think it's easy to split broods against a vortex? do you know how retardedly slow brood lords are? Brood lords have a movement speed of 1.4062 with an acceleration of 1.063 whereas marines have a speed of 2.25 (with stim they can move 50% more quickly) and an a of 1000. Now you may say that banelings come alot faster than a vortex and yep of course i can't disagree with that but if you look at it it might just even out? and what about getting a good spread of roach/hydra? is that really easy? and what about throwing fungals about marines without losing your infestors? do you know how fucking squishy infestors are?
however, i think terran might have the hardest late-game micro overall. sniping is kind of hard i guess (even if its incredibly good) and focusing colossi with vikings etc is of course harder than microing the colossi themselves. although i do think zerg has some hard late-game micro too since infestors are quite hard to keep alive (and also the already mentioned broods).
If this would be allowed in tournaments i'd fucking kill myself. It would be impossible to be on hive tech against a terran. "yeah but you benefit from it too! you can throw infested terrans much faster!!!!!". big fucking deal. what change does a couple of seconds mean when your brood lords, infestors and ultras won't do a single shit.
i do, in alot of my zvt:s, opt to go for brood lord/infestor/ling late game. If this would be allowed and not patched (so that people can't do it on ladder - don't know if that's doable though...) it would ruin the ZvT late game completely. and you can't disagree with that. sure you can say that marine splitting is harder than all zerg micro but just don't say machine gun snipes wouldn't ruin the late game of ZvT. cause it would.
Edit: also you don't have to censor your curse words on TL. this is not SOPA-land.
Look, i take a little offense, so i'll be defensive...
I was a terran player, and now i play zerg so I understand zerg micro and macro mechanics well enough for these arguments.
I also hate snipe as an ability, and hate the direction blizzard has taken with ghosts... i feel like going back to the good ol 150/150 with 2radius emp would probably fix everything, less snipes, less ghosts, less emp blanketing, it would be great.
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
what i mean by inefficient, is that if the cooldown for snipe is long enough than one could feasibly fit an auto attack in between snipes, but trying to get your ghosts to do that would be a nightmare (especially when using the hold fire button)
i still think the answer is 3 second cooldown, 50 energy, 90-100 damage... but everyone likes their little 25::45 efficiency bullshit so w.e
infested terrans all day erry day!!!
I GUESS WHAT BOTHERS ME is that snipe is blizzard's alternative to irradiate... which i would LOVE to see (irradiation round anybody?)
Look, i take a little offense, so i'll be defensive...
I was a terran player, and now i play zerg so I understand zerg micro and macro mechanics well enough for these arguments.
I also hate snipe as an ability, and hate the direction blizzard has taken with ghosts... i feel like going back to the good ol 150/150 with 2radius emp would probably fix everything, less snipes, less ghosts, less emp blanketing, it would be great.
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
what i mean by inefficient, is that if the cooldown for snipe is long enough than one could feasibly fit an auto attack in between snipes, but trying to get your ghosts to do that would be a nightmare (especially when using the hold fire button)
i still think the answer is 3 second cooldown, 50 energy, 90-100 damage... but everyone likes their little 25::45 efficiency bullshit so w.e
infested terrans all day erry day!!!
I GUESS WHAT BOTHERS ME is that snipe is blizzard's alternative to irradiate... which i would LOVE to see (irradiation round anybody?)
Just wanted you to know that your argument states that you'll use the scroll trick for Infested Terrans but not snipe simply because you have bad mouse accuracy. Because of that you would like snipe to be nerfed.
Look, i take a little offense, so i'll be defensive...
I was a terran player, and now i play zerg so I understand zerg micro and macro mechanics well enough for these arguments.
I also hate snipe as an ability, and hate the direction blizzard has taken with ghosts... i feel like going back to the good ol 150/150 with 2radius emp would probably fix everything, less snipes, less ghosts, less emp blanketing, it would be great.
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
what i mean by inefficient, is that if the cooldown for snipe is long enough than one could feasibly fit an auto attack in between snipes, but trying to get your ghosts to do that would be a nightmare (especially when using the hold fire button)
i still think the answer is 3 second cooldown, 50 energy, 90-100 damage... but everyone likes their little 25::45 efficiency bullshit so w.e
infested terrans all day erry day!!!
I GUESS WHAT BOTHERS ME is that snipe is blizzard's alternative to irradiate... which i would LOVE to see (irradiation round anybody?)
Just wanted you to know that your argument states that you'll use the scroll trick for Infested Terrans but not snipe simply because you have bad mouse accuracy. Because of that you would like snipe to be nerfed.
I have no point, just pointing that out to you.
You try it asshole, it's ackward and clumsy as hell, it has nothing to do with my sensitivity or how good my coordination is... fucker... my point is that it looks amazing (like watching cloned battlecruisers in BW, that shit was amazing) but its not that much more useful.
Look, i take a little offense, so i'll be defensive...
I was a terran player, and now i play zerg so I understand zerg micro and macro mechanics well enough for these arguments.
I also hate snipe as an ability, and hate the direction blizzard has taken with ghosts... i feel like going back to the good ol 150/150 with 2radius emp would probably fix everything, less snipes, less ghosts, less emp blanketing, it would be great.
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
what i mean by inefficient, is that if the cooldown for snipe is long enough than one could feasibly fit an auto attack in between snipes, but trying to get your ghosts to do that would be a nightmare (especially when using the hold fire button)
i still think the answer is 3 second cooldown, 50 energy, 90-100 damage... but everyone likes their little 25::45 efficiency bullshit so w.e
infested terrans all day erry day!!!
I GUESS WHAT BOTHERS ME is that snipe is blizzard's alternative to irradiate... which i would LOVE to see (irradiation round anybody?)
Just wanted you to know that your argument states that you'll use the scroll trick for Infested Terrans but not snipe simply because you have bad mouse accuracy. Because of that you would like snipe to be nerfed.
I have no point, just pointing that out to you.
You try it asshole, it's ackward and clumsy as hell, it has nothing to do with my sensitivity or how good my coordination is... fucker... my point is that it looks amazing (like watching cloned battlecruisers in BW, that shit was amazing) but its not that much more useful.
Look, i take a little offense, so i'll be defensive...
I was a terran player, and now i play zerg so I understand zerg micro and macro mechanics well enough for these arguments.
I also hate snipe as an ability, and hate the direction blizzard has taken with ghosts... i feel like going back to the good ol 150/150 with 2radius emp would probably fix everything, less snipes, less ghosts, less emp blanketing, it would be great.
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
what i mean by inefficient, is that if the cooldown for snipe is long enough than one could feasibly fit an auto attack in between snipes, but trying to get your ghosts to do that would be a nightmare (especially when using the hold fire button)
i still think the answer is 3 second cooldown, 50 energy, 90-100 damage... but everyone likes their little 25::45 efficiency bullshit so w.e
infested terrans all day erry day!!!
I GUESS WHAT BOTHERS ME is that snipe is blizzard's alternative to irradiate... which i would LOVE to see (irradiation round anybody?)
Just wanted you to know that your argument states that you'll use the scroll trick for Infested Terrans but not snipe simply because you have bad mouse accuracy. Because of that you would like snipe to be nerfed.
I have no point, just pointing that out to you.
You try it asshole, it's ackward and clumsy as hell, it has nothing to do with my sensitivity or how good my coordination is... fucker... my point is that it looks amazing (like watching cloned battlecruisers in BW, that shit was amazing) but its not that much more useful.
Why is your response so rude? He wasn't being disrespectful to you. How do you play starcraft when your mouse isn't accrete enough to hover over a unit, wouldn't that make the game almost impossible to play?
On February 09 2012 06:08 llKenZyll wrote: I would like this if I could also use scroll on my browser.
If you decide to use the software in the OP you can set a separate profile and make it so that the scroll= left click only in starcraft 2. You can choose the specific application, ie. sc2.exe. In your browser you can scroll normally, but in sc2 it becomes left click. Happy hunting.
On February 09 2012 06:08 llKenZyll wrote: I would like this if I could also use scroll on my browser.
If you decide to use the software in the OP you can set a separate profile and make it so that the scroll= left click only in starcraft 2. You can choose the specific application, ie. sc2.exe. In your browser you can scroll normally, but in sc2 it becomes left click. Happy hunting.
An easier way that I found was to go into settings from setup - from there, you can enable global hotkeys to enable/disable the program.
Sigh, it's sad how people are trying to defend this.
The reason this is cheating is because it allows clicks not based on a 1:1 basis. In windows mouse settings, one click of a scroll wheel can be set as high as 8 movements, which means in one movement of the scroll wheel (maybe 3 or 4 clicks) you'll get 24-32 keypresses... That's not 1 movement : 1 command. This is obviously unfair.
It looks like it's hard for Blizzard to ban (if they even care) but if they said it wasn't allowed than pros wouldn't use it because it would be immediately obvious they were cheating when they hit 20k APM.
I don't understand why people will use this... imo, this is just like the people who use drophacks, maphacks, and other stuff... your concern is winning and not getting better, which means you'll never get better.
On February 09 2012 06:48 Kerwin wrote: Sigh, it's sad how people are trying to defend this.
The reason this is cheating is because it allows clicks not based on a 1:1 basis. In windows mouse settings, one click of a scroll wheel can be set as high as 8 movements, which means in one movement of the scroll wheel (maybe 3 or 4 clicks) you'll get 24-32 keypresses... That's not 1 movement : 1 command. This is obviously unfair.
It looks like it's hard for Blizzard to ban (if they even care) but if they said it wasn't allowed than pros wouldn't use it because it would be immediately obvious they were cheating when they hit 20k APM.
I don't understand why people will use this... imo, this is just like the people who use drophacks, maphacks, and other stuff... your concern is winning and not getting better, which means you'll never get better.
When I'm zerg I use clicks not based on a 1:1 basis every game. When I'm building mass units I hit s and then their hotkey once and hold it while it resisters a dozen or so keystrokes. I think every key registers mulitple strokes if you hold it down so this is this different?
Look, i take a little offense, so i'll be defensive...
I was a terran player, and now i play zerg so I understand zerg micro and macro mechanics well enough for these arguments.
I also hate snipe as an ability, and hate the direction blizzard has taken with ghosts... i feel like going back to the good ol 150/150 with 2radius emp would probably fix everything, less snipes, less ghosts, less emp blanketing, it would be great.
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
what i mean by inefficient, is that if the cooldown for snipe is long enough than one could feasibly fit an auto attack in between snipes, but trying to get your ghosts to do that would be a nightmare (especially when using the hold fire button)
i still think the answer is 3 second cooldown, 50 energy, 90-100 damage... but everyone likes their little 25::45 efficiency bullshit so w.e
infested terrans all day erry day!!!
I GUESS WHAT BOTHERS ME is that snipe is blizzard's alternative to irradiate... which i would LOVE to see (irradiation round anybody?)
Just wanted you to know that your argument states that you'll use the scroll trick for Infested Terrans but not snipe simply because you have bad mouse accuracy. Because of that you would like snipe to be nerfed.
I have no point, just pointing that out to you.
You try it asshole, it's ackward and clumsy as hell, it has nothing to do with my sensitivity or how good my coordination is... fucker... my point is that it looks amazing (like watching cloned battlecruisers in BW, that shit was amazing) but its not that much more useful.
Why is your response so rude? He wasn't being disrespectful to you. How do you play starcraft when your mouse isn't accrete enough to hover over a unit, wouldn't that make the game almost impossible to play?
My response is rude because he was disrespecting me. He was doing so by making a claim that i was bad at the game, and using that as justification to ignore my argument.
I'm not sure how to respond to "How do you play starcraft when your mouse isn't accurate enough to hover over a unit, wouldn't that make the game almost impossible to play?" because its a pretty obvious statement... and i want to reiterate that it has nothing to do with mouse accuracy:
the games I tried to use snipe and mouse scroll, i found microing those battles very awkward to perform normal actions, then change my hand position to control the mouse and spam the scroll wheel (of course, my scrollwheel is terrible but w.e)
also, go back to the origonal poster video, the only difference using the mechanic and not, is with this mechanic, less ghosts are sitting around doing nothing...
LASTLY, i want to point out that THIS IS AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN GET TO REMOVING SMARTCASTING I would love holding alt or something to disable smartcasting for using certain spells, but since such a thing doesn't exist, i believe that this TECHNIQUE is fine, because the EFFECT is as though there is no smartcasting.
Surely this problem is fixed by the whole not allowing 3rd party drivers thing like in tournaments.
People with mice such as the Sensei etc can have one mousewheel up = one click --> 1:1 Third party programs to make scroll up = 7 scrolls (via windows) and those 7 scrolls = 7 clicks (via program) --> many:1
TL:DR One mouseclick to one wheel scroll should be allowable / acceptable Many mouseclicks to one wheel scroll should not be allowed / unacceptable
On February 09 2012 06:48 Kerwin wrote: Sigh, it's sad how people are trying to defend this.
The reason this is cheating is because it allows clicks not based on a 1:1 basis. In windows mouse settings, one click of a scroll wheel can be set as high as 8 movements, which means in one movement of the scroll wheel (maybe 3 or 4 clicks) you'll get 24-32 keypresses... That's not 1 movement : 1 command. This is obviously unfair.
It looks like it's hard for Blizzard to ban (if they even care) but if they said it wasn't allowed than pros wouldn't use it because it would be immediately obvious they were cheating when they hit 20k APM.
I don't understand why people will use this... imo, this is just like the people who use drophacks, maphacks, and other stuff... your concern is winning and not getting better, which means you'll never get better.
When I'm zerg I use clicks not based on a 1:1 basis every game. When I'm building mass units I hit s and then their hotkey once and hold it while it resisters a dozen or so keystrokes. I think every key registers mulitple strokes if you hold it down so this is this different?
That's wrong. Starcraft 2 only count 1 scroll step as 1 click regardless of how high the Windows control panel scroll movement is. You can simply scroll faster than you can click buttons and that's all there is to it.
On February 09 2012 07:06 Vrtigo wrote: Surely this problem is fixed by the whole not allowing 3rd party drivers thing like in tournaments.
People with mice such as the Sensei etc can have one mousewheel up = one click --> 1:1 Third party programs to make scroll up = 7 scrolls (via windows) and those 7 scrolls = 7 clicks (via program) --> many:1
TL:DR One mouseclick to one wheel scroll should be allowable / acceptable Many mouseclicks to one wheel scroll should not be allowed / unacceptable
Just my 2c
That's already how it is. It's illegal to create macros that are more than 1:1 click:action. But since we can scroll way way faster than we can click, 1:1 is still incredible fast on a scroll wheel.
Besides they would not ban 3rd party drivers, they would ban setting that setting in the driver program. They can't remove the ability to install mouse drivers for players, that would be insane.
I think you don't need a program to do this, you can simply just use regedit.exe in Windows. Are they going to ban Windows? Obviously not, they would ban setting mouse button 1 to scroll wheel. READ: If we need to ban this....
Look, i take a little offense, so i'll be defensive...
I was a terran player, and now i play zerg so I understand zerg micro and macro mechanics well enough for these arguments.
I also hate snipe as an ability, and hate the direction blizzard has taken with ghosts... i feel like going back to the good ol 150/150 with 2radius emp would probably fix everything, less snipes, less ghosts, less emp blanketing, it would be great.
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
what i mean by inefficient, is that if the cooldown for snipe is long enough than one could feasibly fit an auto attack in between snipes, but trying to get your ghosts to do that would be a nightmare (especially when using the hold fire button)
i still think the answer is 3 second cooldown, 50 energy, 90-100 damage... but everyone likes their little 25::45 efficiency bullshit so w.e
infested terrans all day erry day!!!
I GUESS WHAT BOTHERS ME is that snipe is blizzard's alternative to irradiate... which i would LOVE to see (irradiation round anybody?)
Just wanted you to know that your argument states that you'll use the scroll trick for Infested Terrans but not snipe simply because you have bad mouse accuracy. Because of that you would like snipe to be nerfed.
I have no point, just pointing that out to you.
You try it asshole, it's ackward and clumsy as hell, it has nothing to do with my sensitivity or how good my coordination is... fucker... my point is that it looks amazing (like watching cloned battlecruisers in BW, that shit was amazing) but its not that much more useful.
Why is your response so rude? He wasn't being disrespectful to you. How do you play starcraft when your mouse isn't accrete enough to hover over a unit, wouldn't that make the game almost impossible to play?
My response is rude because he was disrespecting me. He was doing so by making a claim that i was bad at the game, and using that as justification to ignore my argument.
I'm not sure how to respond to "How do you play starcraft when your mouse isn't accurate enough to hover over a unit, wouldn't that make the game almost impossible to play?" because its a pretty obvious statement... and i want to reiterate that it has nothing to do with mouse accuracy:
the games I tried to use snipe and mouse scroll, i found microing those battles very awkward to perform normal actions, then change my hand position to control the mouse and spam the scroll wheel (of course, my scrollwheel is terrible but w.e)
also, go back to the origonal poster video, the only difference using the mechanic and not, is with this mechanic, less ghosts are sitting around doing nothing...
LASTLY, i want to point out that THIS IS AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN GET TO REMOVING SMARTCASTING I would love holding alt or something to disable smartcasting for using certain spells, but since such a thing doesn't exist, i believe that this TECHNIQUE is fine, because the EFFECT is as though there is no smartcasting.
Sorry but I was not disrespecting you. I simply re stated what you had posted.
Problem:
I will use the mouse scroll thingie, because i love infestors, and i love infested terrans, and with this, i dont have to spend an hour clicking to cast a bunch of ITs... i wont use this with snipe and ghost, because it is much harder to control (as in moving the mouse accurately and rolling is unnatural for me) and i will probably just use leftclick + held r instead...
Solution:
Snipe should be changed, but i think that right now its a shitty mechanic i worry about things like adding a cooldown (in order to simulate the slowness at which players use the spell using left click) etc because that just makes the ghost an inefficient unit (in terms of wasted damage and attack i can explain that more)
I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
I started using this trick yesterday and I've found one interesting property. Zergs now have forcefields!!!! I engaged a protoss army and he tried to retreat, so I instantly laid down all the infested terrans so he was blocked in. My roaches then did what needed to be done.
Ever had that frustrated feeling when your entire roach army is contained in one little hex surrounded by big ugly forcefields? The time for revenge is now! until it gets patched.
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
Like this guy:
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
oh then why isn't this a problem with holding down the key? also idk if you could hold down keys in bw hahahaha never tried ti
HM OH RIGHT they were talking about the delay from when you have the key pressed once before it starts repeating.
the thing is is that scroll wheels don't have that. And also i would qualify as that "trick" that you posted as being a HACK. modify code that effects how hardware works is hacking lol
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
Like this guy:
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
oh then why isn't this a problem with holding down the key? also idk if you could hold down keys in bw hahahaha never tried ti
HM OH RIGHT they were talking about the delay from when you have the key pressed once before it starts repeating.
the thing is is that scroll wheels don't have that.
You can remove the inital repeat delay and then you can use keyboard keys just as fast as you can with scroll wheel. I said that in my post: "adjust the repeat delay for that key".
You can do it in Windows control panal, its just like changing the mouse pointer speed and using mouses with higher DPI. How is that a hack? Having a mouse with higher DPI is not cheating, nobody thinks that. Why could you not change the keyboard repeat delay when you do the exact same thing with mouse speed?
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
Like this guy:
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
oh then why isn't this a problem with holding down the key? also idk if you could hold down keys in bw hahahaha never tried ti
HM OH RIGHT they were talking about the delay from when you have the key pressed once before it starts repeating.
the thing is is that scroll wheels don't have that.
You can remove the inital repeat delay and then you can use keyboard keys just as fast as you can with scroll wheel. I said that in my post: "adjust the repeat delay for that key".
you CANNOT remove the initial repeat delay through control panel. which is the only way it is legit to me. If you remove it completely thats HACKING
I don't know how to intro this. It begins with an ethical analysis, I made it as non-subjective as possible. Then its my subjective analysis. Then I deliver my creative analysis, in the spoiled section. Then a summary with a twist at the end. enjoy?
Computer hardware works off of signals, listeners, and events. The basic events are intuitive, they are keypress and keyrelease, mousepress and mouserelease. A listener waits for these events. The listener then sends a signal to the appropriate thread. The thread in this case is sc2.exe.
An example to illustrate the basic 'press' events. When a 'leftmousepress' event occurs while the location of the mouse is on the minimap, the listener receives the event, and then sends a signal to sc2. This signal contains all the details of the event, and sc2 redraws your screen to where you clicked on the minimap.
An example using 'leftmouserelease' as well as some more sophisticated events that are built from the mousepress and mouserelease events. When a 'leftmousepress' event occurs while the location of the mouse is on the main gameplay window, with nothing to select at that location, nothing initially happens. The event is sent, but no signal occurs because of it. But if an event 'mousedrag' occurs, a green box begins to be drawn on your screen. Upon the 'leftmouserelease' event units are selected within the box if it was drawn.
Mousescroll events are even simpler. There is no 'press/release' dichotomy, there is just one event. Each set interval scrolled sends that event on its merry way.
But holding down a key, as mentioned many times before, does something capable of much more.
The listener on your device receives the initial 'press' event, and sends a 'press' signal. If no 'release' event is received within a set time, it begins to send 'press' signals at a regular interval, until a 'release' event finally occurs.
Using this knowledge, an ethical guideline can be constructed. The first hurdle comes with understanding the 1:1 map, as it is a technically vague description.
A map, in computing, not math, is an array with a unique 'key' assigned to a not necessarily unique value. For the code illiterate, an array is just a list of items, much like your wire frame selection. A map with letters being the 'key': a->1 b->1 c->2 etc....
The unique key of the map must be the event, and the non-unique corresponding entry must be a signal, or set of identical signals. Nothing else exists related to user input.
The scenario calling for an event to correspond to a single signal would forbid holding down keys. This leaves the set of signals. A set of signals being paired with each unique event accounts for all current gameplay. This also allows for scroll click.
Examples:{Consequence of signal, Event} {Mouse over unit(queen), Move Mouse} {Select unit(queen), Left Mouse Click} {Select command (inject), V} {Mouse over unit(hatch), Move Mouse} {Target ability (inject), Left Mouse Click} Ultra Snipe: [{Select command (snipe), R},{Target Ability(snipe), Scroll Up}]x12
Example of cheat: {Center on hatch+Select (queen)+Control Group+Select Inject, Single Macro Key Event}
This is the only way to view this. The action of 'artificially' clicking repeatedly is rudimentary, devoid of intelligence. (You are artificially sending signals to the computer either way) It can be considered a basic mechanic of the mouse, equivalent to a shift click in complexity. It should not be considered for prohibition. It should be accepted as a norm. Of course, in the scenario that the state of the game does nosedive because of an endgame composition that has been left to pool energy, it still should not be considered. A specific ability of a specific endgame unit is one of the easier balance problems for blizzard to judge.
The community would do good by accepting this mechanic.
Industries grow when they take advantage of new technology and adapt it to their needs or desires. The capabilities of the man machine interface can and will grow beyond this. And, as a people interested in highly intelligent gaming, it would behoove developers, players, spectators to participate in the growth of the interface.
The developers gain a tool, the players gain thrills. The players have the burden and the opportunity.
Finding ways to create new challenges is a first step. Create new standards of perfection. If a mechanic seems to enable great use of one ability in the game, then any other abilities that use that mechanic will be necessarily stronger. Perhaps being able to drop on the fly instantly will become a play-style strength. Perhaps the raven can be used to do quick wall offs, but only with a practiced motion. Perhaps a strong infestor composition with neural parasite can be discovered, where a critical mass of key small food units would be mind controlled in a large engagement. It would take skill and accuracy. And mostly immense practice. How else would you find out how much delay between each click is best for reaching each dropship exactly in time?
Learn to give up tools that weren't as effective for these tasks, like the single clicks. Those single clicks will still be the norm for all other tasks. But learn to use the new tools as voraciously and efficiently as possible. The speed of the raw clicks was never that important. They did not make you. The speed in changing selections, mouse positions, and switching your mouse from function to function was what took your time.
It is easy to take your mouse's complexity for granted. It is not as simple as the number of buttons on it. Here are a few: the shift click, the control click, the control shift click, the double click, the right click, and of course the single click. Your mouse has so many functions, not only based on which click you use, but where your cursor is located, and what is in your wire frame selection. This feature isn't making the mouse that much more powerful on its own. Its just another way to approach the same actions.
Now you have a choice. Read what I've thought of. It might strain your ethics. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
That program linked in the OP. First set up a profile for sc2.exe. Just click , click the '…' button and find your sc2.exe.
Now. It has a customizable option, under simulated keys. Go ahead and choose that for your middle button, not your scrolls. There is an option for "repeatedly while the button is held". Choose that. For your custom hotkey, you'll probably want {LMB} as your parameter. Set the delay to something between 50 and 100 ms. Don't go crazy with that number. 50 ms isn't a very long time. You'll be as quick as you need to be.
And if you can practice, you can use the regular interval of signals to do a sweep of near perfect force fields. Or an line of emps. You'll be able to surround units with infested terrans and instantly fungal your entire opponents roach mass in the big engagement. Feedback too, again though, with practice. Just like any other thing in this game.
Hey, while you're at it. Go ahead and set your right button. Set it to repeat {RMB} in the same way. Did you ever need to really only right click once on anything?
Maybe you're a protoss trying to block the hatchery of a zerg with a probe, but you can't make a good circle. Suddenly, all you have to do is move your mouse in a smooth arc and hold down that button.
Maybe you want to finally do flawless mineral stacking. Now you can.
Maybe you aren't good at shift target firing a line of units. I guess you are now.
Maybe you are being harassed by hellions. Just stop all your workers. Hold down the idle worker button and swing that beautiful right mouse button in an arc.
Maybe you can't squeeze your zerglings past a zealot that wasn't on hold position.
Maybe you want to send a drop out via the minimap, but you keep making the last leg of its journey too linear. Now, you can curve with the terrain perfectly.
A previous poster mentioned using the scroll up and down to do backspace and left click, respectively. He then selected all his queens, held v, and scrolled up one and down one for each inject. Its fine if you agree to my ethical analysis. It's clever, for sure.
The mechanic that has been realized is a directed rapid click. It has potential. The downsides aren't obvious. I picture it as a key you hold down, just like control and shift, to use in conjunction with your mouse. Accuracy, efficiency, and timing, as always, remain the standards of skill.
And here is my kicker, progamers, one of the largest upsides will be that your mouse wrist will be spared long term damage.
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
Like this guy:
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
I mean.. what an arbitrary thing to believe. You can not use regedit but you can use control panel? If microsoft actually was not lazy and decided to put the slider long in control panel it would be fine?
oh then why isn't this a problem with holding down the key? also idk if you could hold down keys in bw hahahaha never tried ti
HM OH RIGHT they were talking about the delay from when you have the key pressed once before it starts repeating.
the thing is is that scroll wheels don't have that.
You can remove the inital repeat delay and then you can use keyboard keys just as fast as you can with scroll wheel. I said that in my post: "adjust the repeat delay for that key".
you CANNOT remove the initial repeat delay through control panel. which is the only way it is legit to me. If you remove it completely thats HACKING
You can set it lower in control panel... You can even set it lower in regedit.exe, Microsoft just never bothered to put it lower in control panel. If you use MAC, you can use the terminal to set it just as low as you can in regedit in Windows. Is Online tournaments going to ban starcraft 2 on MAC?
I mean.. what an arbitrary thing to believe. If Microsoft was not lazy and did decide to make the slider in control panel so you can put it even lower it would be fine?
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
Like this guy:
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
oh then why isn't this a problem with holding down the key? also idk if you could hold down keys in bw hahahaha never tried ti
HM OH RIGHT they were talking about the delay from when you have the key pressed once before it starts repeating.
the thing is is that scroll wheels don't have that.
You can remove the inital repeat delay and then you can use keyboard keys just as fast as you can with scroll wheel. I said that in my post: "adjust the repeat delay for that key".
you CANNOT remove the initial repeat delay through control panel. which is the only way it is legit to me. If you remove it completely thats HACKING
You can set it lower in control panel... You can even set it lower in regedit.exe, Microsoft just never bothered to put it lower in control panel. If you use MAC, you can use the terminal to set it just as low as you can in regedit in Windows. Is Online tournaments going to ban starcraft 2 on MAC?
lol name 1 pro that plays on a mac
idk this is getting into the debate of how much hardware / software modification should be allowed. IDK the answer to that, I just feel like a wheel and a button are distinct enough to create a.... distinction. aka you can't just use them the same!
lol if we end up comparing this to the fact that "well, you could just hold down a button, and then move your mouse around" then .... whatever game we are talking about seems bad. I don't want to play cs with no recoil, i don't want to just press and drag my mouse around... T_T sc2 lol
On February 09 2012 07:51 RoyAlex wrote: I mean.. what an arbitrary thing to believe. If Microsoft was not lazy and did decide to make the slider in control panel so you can put it even lower it would be fine?
If that was true, i would have to reconsider my definition of a "button" and how it works with my computer.
that hypothetical is one i don't think we need to discuss as it's not practical and also no one uses macs lol
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
Like this guy:
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
oh then why isn't this a problem with holding down the key? also idk if you could hold down keys in bw hahahaha never tried ti
HM OH RIGHT they were talking about the delay from when you have the key pressed once before it starts repeating.
the thing is is that scroll wheels don't have that.
You can remove the inital repeat delay and then you can use keyboard keys just as fast as you can with scroll wheel. I said that in my post: "adjust the repeat delay for that key".
you CANNOT remove the initial repeat delay through control panel. which is the only way it is legit to me. If you remove it completely thats HACKING
You can set it lower in control panel... You can even set it lower in regedit.exe, Microsoft just never bothered to put it lower in control panel. If you use MAC, you can use the terminal to set it just as low as you can in regedit in Windows. Is Online tournaments going to ban starcraft 2 on MAC?
lol name 1 pro that plays on a mac
idk this is getting into the debate of how much hardware / software modification should be allowed. IDK the answer to that, I just feel like a wheel and a button are distinct enough to create a.... distinction. aka you can't just use them the same!
"lol name 1 pro that plays on a mac" So its fine for MAC user to have so low repeat delay but not Microsoft user? No.
I think it's just ahead of it's time... i guess. Or i mean its really new and nobody don't know how to approch this. I don't know if there were complaints like this when mouses with adjustable DPI came. It has already been decided that macro's should not be used. So i guess if Blizzard, the pro players and tournaments decide to ban this it would be fine either way, lets just see if it really really breaks the game.
Maybe Razer comes out with a mouse that actually has 3 layers of left clicks, you just press further down, and that way you snipe faster than mouses with only 1 click. lol
On February 09 2012 07:59 Willzzz wrote: What if someone made a mouse that you could hold down the left click for repeat? would that be wrong?
Should they stop people holding down keys on keyboards so its harder to spam units?
I am leaving this conversation so you don't need to respond to my posts anymore but I do want to say this:
in bw this shit never came up. there was no "holding down keys" the idea of that is ridiculous imo.
And as long as you are asking hypotheticals, this is gonna take a long time to solve.
A button is what it is simply because we built it like that. A scroll wheel is what it is simply because its like that now
NOW. there is no point in talking about things that aren't real.
On February 09 2012 08:02 RoyAlex wrote: "lol name 1 pro that plays on a mac" So its fine for MAC user to have so low repeat delay but not Microsoft user? No.
I think it's just ahead of it's time... i guess. Or i mean its really new and nobody don't know how to approch this. I don't know if there were complaints like this when mouses with adjustable DPI came. It has already been decided that macro's should not be used. So i guess if Blizzard, the pro players and tournaments decide to ban this it would be fine either way, lets just see if it really really breaks the game.
Maybe Razer comes out with a mouse that actually has 3 layers of left clicks, you just press further down, and that way you snipe faster than mouses with only 1 click. lol
"its really new and nobody don't know how to approch this" Yes, because nothing you are talking about (macs, new razer mouse) are real. none of those things are real. you are talking about stuff that isn't real and isn't relevant. anyways now i hope everyone sees how close minded i am , and swear i'll ttyl
On February 09 2012 00:39 Barrin wrote: make the snipe animation longer (if anything...?)
like, I mean.. they're sniping.
I don't know if you've ever tried to snipe something with a sniper rifle... well, I haven't either. But I do know that the aiming part takes quite a bit longer than any other kind of gun.
Logic in Starcraft 2?!
Blasphemy
In all seriousness i don't think they should change anything in the game just because it's illogical, although the might change something if this turns out to make ghosts too strong. I have yet to see it used in a pro match though, So I'll wait and see.
On February 09 2012 08:02 RoyAlex wrote: "lol name 1 pro that plays on a mac" So its fine for MAC user to have so low repeat delay but not Microsoft user? No.
I think it's just ahead of it's time... i guess. Or i mean its really new and nobody don't know how to approch this. I don't know if there were complaints like this when mouses with adjustable DPI came. It has already been decided that macro's should not be used. So i guess if Blizzard, the pro players and tournaments decide to ban this it would be fine either way, lets just see if it really really breaks the game.
Maybe Razer comes out with a mouse that actually has 3 layers of left clicks, you just press further down, and that way you snipe faster than mouses with only 1 click. lol
"its really new and nobody don't know how to approch this" Yes, because nothing you are talking about (macs, new razer mouse) are real. none of those things are real. you are talking about stuff that isn't real and isn't relevant. anyways now i hope everyone sees how close minded i am , and swear i'll ttyl
Well if you want you can just forget I said that stuff, it was mostly just for fun (razer mouse). But the "nobody uses MAC", thus its fine? That's just stupid to say.
But i did mentions real things that people actually uses, like bind mouse button to a keyboard key (spacedude and probably more.) I myself have adjust my keyboard repeat delay for feedbacks, and there could be progamers that have adjusted these settings. It's very real, people are already trying it i this thread, probably many progamers might try this out.
I don't think changing you keyboard repeat delay is wrong, niether is have a mouse with adjustable DPI or having a keyboard were the F1 keys are right above number keys thus the distance is shorter. I don't think binding keys & actions to different keys is cheating. European keyboard have one extra key between left shift & Z and Razer keyboard have more keys on the left side of the keyboard.
I think it's just silly if people think any of these are wrong or cheating. To me the difference between having a keyboard with more buttons or binding a key to another place is the same. Same with changing keyboard rate & mouse speed.
But since some of these thing allows things like rapid ghost sniping. Doing that exact thing which allows ghost sniping to rapid fire like that should be banned, or fixed somehow by blizz. If it's truly imba.
On February 09 2012 07:48 aliasA wrote: I don't know how to intro this. It begins with an ethical analysis, I made it as non-subjective as possible. Then its my subjective analysis. Then I deliver my creative analysis, in the spoiled section. Then a summary with a twist at the end. enjoy?
Computer hardware works off of signals, listeners, and events. The basic events are intuitive, they are keypress and keyrelease, mousepress and mouserelease. A listener waits for these events. The listener then sends a signal to the appropriate thread. The thread in this case is sc2.exe.
An example to illustrate the basic 'press' events. When a 'leftmousepress' event occurs while the location of the mouse is on the minimap, the listener receives the event, and then sends a signal to sc2. This signal contains all the details of the event, and sc2 redraws your screen to where you clicked on the minimap.
An example using 'leftmouserelease' as well as some more sophisticated events that are built from the mousepress and mouserelease events. When a 'leftmousepress' event occurs while the location of the mouse is on the main gameplay window, with nothing to select at that location, nothing initially happens. The event is sent, but no signal occurs because of it. But if an event 'mousedrag' occurs, a green box begins to be drawn on your screen. Upon the 'leftmouserelease' event units are selected within the box if it was drawn.
Mousescroll events are even simpler. There is no 'press/release' dichotomy, there is just one event. Each set interval scrolled sends that event on its merry way.
But holding down a key, as mentioned many times before, does something capable of much more.
The listener on your device receives the initial 'press' event, and sends a 'press' signal. If no 'release' event is received within a set time, it begins to send 'press' signals at a regular interval, until a 'release' event finally occurs.
Using this knowledge, an ethical guideline can be constructed. The first hurdle comes with understanding the 1:1 map, as it is a technically vague description.
A map, in computing, not math, is an array with a unique 'key' assigned to a not necessarily unique value. For the code illiterate, an array is just a list of items, much like your wire frame selection. A map with letters being the 'key': a->1 b->1 c->2 etc....
The unique key of the map must be the event, and the non-unique corresponding entry must be a signal, or set of identical signals. Nothing else exists related to user input.
The scenario calling for an event to correspond to a single signal would forbid holding down keys. This leaves the set of signals. A set of signals being paired with each unique event accounts for all current gameplay. This also allows for scroll click.
Examples:{Consequence of signal, Event} {Mouse over unit(queen), Move Mouse} {Select unit(queen), Left Mouse Click} {Select command (inject), V} {Mouse over unit(hatch), Move Mouse} {Target ability (inject), Left Mouse Click} Ultra Snipe: [{Select command (snipe), R},{Target Ability(snipe), Scroll Up}]x12
Example of cheat: {Center on hatch+Select (queen)+Control Group+Select Inject, Single Macro Key Event}
This is the only way to view this. The action of 'artificially' clicking repeatedly is rudimentary, devoid of intelligence. (You are artificially sending signals to the computer either way) It can be considered a basic mechanic of the mouse, equivalent to a shift click in complexity. It should not be considered for prohibition. It should be accepted as a norm. Of course, in the scenario that the state of the game does nosedive because of an endgame composition that has been left to pool energy, it still should not be considered. A specific ability of a specific endgame unit is one of the easier balance problems for blizzard to judge.
The community would do good by accepting this mechanic.
Industries grow when they take advantage of new technology and adapt it to their needs or desires. The capabilities of the man machine interface can and will grow beyond this. And, as a people interested in highly intelligent gaming, it would behoove developers, players, spectators to participate in the growth of the interface.
The developers gain a tool, the players gain thrills. The players have the burden and the opportunity.
Finding ways to create new challenges is a first step. Create new standards of perfection. If a mechanic seems to enable great use of one ability in the game, then any other abilities that use that mechanic will be necessarily stronger. Perhaps being able to drop on the fly instantly will become a play-style strength. Perhaps the raven can be used to do quick wall offs, but only with a practiced motion. Perhaps a strong infestor composition with neural parasite can be discovered, where a critical mass of key small food units would be mind controlled in a large engagement. It would take skill and accuracy. And mostly immense practice. How else would you find out how much delay between each click is best for reaching each dropship exactly in time?
Learn to give up tools that weren't as effective for these tasks, like the single clicks. Those single clicks will still be the norm for all other tasks. But learn to use the new tools as voraciously and efficiently as possible. The speed of the raw clicks was never that important. They did not make you. The speed in changing selections, mouse positions, and switching your mouse from function to function was what took your time.
It is easy to take your mouse's complexity for granted. It is not as simple as the number of buttons on it. Here are a few: the shift click, the control click, the control shift click, the double click, the right click, and of course the single click. Your mouse has so many functions, not only based on which click you use, but where your cursor is located, and what is in your wire frame selection. This feature isn't making the mouse that much more powerful on its own. Its just another way to approach the same actions.
Now you have a choice. Read what I've thought of. It might strain your ethics. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
That program linked in the OP. First set up a profile for sc2.exe. Just click , click the '…' button and find your sc2.exe.
Now. It has a customizable option, under simulated keys. Go ahead and choose that for your middle button, not your scrolls. There is an option for "repeatedly while the button is held". Choose that. For your custom hotkey, you'll probably want {LMB} as your parameter. Set the delay to something between 50 and 100 ms. Don't go crazy with that number. 50 ms isn't a very long time. You'll be as quick as you need to be.
And if you can practice, you can use the regular interval of signals to do a sweep of near perfect force fields. Or an line of emps. You'll be able to surround units with infested terrans and instantly fungal your entire opponents roach mass in the big engagement. Feedback too, again though, with practice. Just like any other thing in this game.
Hey, while you're at it. Go ahead and set your right button. Set it to repeat {RMB} in the same way. Did you ever need to really only right click once on anything?
Maybe you're a protoss trying to block the hatchery of a zerg with a probe, but you can't make a good circle. Suddenly, all you have to do is move your mouse in a smooth arc and hold down that button.
Maybe you want to finally do flawless mineral stacking. Now you can.
Maybe you aren't good at shift target firing a line of units. I guess you are now.
Maybe you are being harassed by hellions. Just stop all your workers. Hold down the idle worker button and swing that beautiful right mouse button in an arc.
Maybe you can't squeeze your zerglings past a zealot that wasn't on hold position.
Maybe you want to send a drop out via the minimap, but you keep making the last leg of its journey too linear. Now, you can curve with the terrain perfectly.
A previous poster mentioned using the scroll up and down to do backspace and left click, respectively. He then selected all his queens, held v, and scrolled up one and down one for each inject. Its fine if you agree to my ethical analysis. It's clever, for sure.
The mechanic that has been realized is a directed rapid click. It has potential. The downsides aren't obvious. I picture it as a key you hold down, just like control and shift, to use in conjunction with your mouse. Accuracy, efficiency, and timing, as always, remain the standards of skill.
And here is my kicker, progamers, one of the largest upsides will be that your mouse wrist will be spared long term damage.
Kind of meaningless to me. You could use this logic to legitimize every exploit in every game, whether it was multiple actions happening by a single button on a mouse or any glitch/exploit in any game. Sometimes new technology isn't good just because it makes some tasks easier because sometimes those tasks were designed to be hard. Snipe is a good example of this snipe requires great stamina in clicking because the pay off for each click is really high. When stamina doesn't play a factor, the likelihood is that the spell will be nerfed sine it loses the limitations that were designed to keep it in check.
The irony of this topic is if blizzard is paying attention, the ghost is about to get a nerf. Whether thats a energy cost for snipe going up or a cooldown increase.
I personally think this technique isn't as bad for spamming zerglings or for spamming ITerrans because conceivably few outcomes would become highly unfavorable for opponents with the addition of the ability to shoot ITs faster. SAme thing about spamming the creation of zerglings. Right now the game is balanced around zerglings being spammed. But MOST people already argue that the ghost is a versatile unit on the cusp of being too efficient against everything zerg and a lot protoss. This is more likely to make that thing too good.
On February 09 2012 07:48 aliasA wrote: I don't know how to intro this. It begins with an ethical analysis, I made it as non-subjective as possible. Then its my subjective analysis. Then I deliver my creative analysis, in the spoiled section. Then a summary with a twist at the end. enjoy?
Computer hardware works off of signals, listeners, and events. The basic events are intuitive, they are keypress and keyrelease, mousepress and mouserelease. A listener waits for these events. The listener then sends a signal to the appropriate thread. The thread in this case is sc2.exe.
An example to illustrate the basic 'press' events. When a 'leftmousepress' event occurs while the location of the mouse is on the minimap, the listener receives the event, and then sends a signal to sc2. This signal contains all the details of the event, and sc2 redraws your screen to where you clicked on the minimap.
An example using 'leftmouserelease' as well as some more sophisticated events that are built from the mousepress and mouserelease events. When a 'leftmousepress' event occurs while the location of the mouse is on the main gameplay window, with nothing to select at that location, nothing initially happens. The event is sent, but no signal occurs because of it. But if an event 'mousedrag' occurs, a green box begins to be drawn on your screen. Upon the 'leftmouserelease' event units are selected within the box if it was drawn.
Mousescroll events are even simpler. There is no 'press/release' dichotomy, there is just one event. Each set interval scrolled sends that event on its merry way.
But holding down a key, as mentioned many times before, does something capable of much more.
The listener on your device receives the initial 'press' event, and sends a 'press' signal. If no 'release' event is received within a set time, it begins to send 'press' signals at a regular interval, until a 'release' event finally occurs.
Using this knowledge, an ethical guideline can be constructed. The first hurdle comes with understanding the 1:1 map, as it is a technically vague description.
A map, in computing, not math, is an array with a unique 'key' assigned to a not necessarily unique value. For the code illiterate, an array is just a list of items, much like your wire frame selection. A map with letters being the 'key': a->1 b->1 c->2 etc....
The unique key of the map must be the event, and the non-unique corresponding entry must be a signal, or set of identical signals. Nothing else exists related to user input.
The scenario calling for an event to correspond to a single signal would forbid holding down keys. This leaves the set of signals. A set of signals being paired with each unique event accounts for all current gameplay. This also allows for scroll click.
Examples:{Consequence of signal, Event} {Mouse over unit(queen), Move Mouse} {Select unit(queen), Left Mouse Click} {Select command (inject), V} {Mouse over unit(hatch), Move Mouse} {Target ability (inject), Left Mouse Click} Ultra Snipe: [{Select command (snipe), R},{Target Ability(snipe), Scroll Up}]x12
Example of cheat: {Center on hatch+Select (queen)+Control Group+Select Inject, Single Macro Key Event}
This is the only way to view this. The action of 'artificially' clicking repeatedly is rudimentary, devoid of intelligence. (You are artificially sending signals to the computer either way) It can be considered a basic mechanic of the mouse, equivalent to a shift click in complexity. It should not be considered for prohibition. It should be accepted as a norm. Of course, in the scenario that the state of the game does nosedive because of an endgame composition that has been left to pool energy, it still should not be considered. A specific ability of a specific endgame unit is one of the easier balance problems for blizzard to judge.
The community would do good by accepting this mechanic.
Industries grow when they take advantage of new technology and adapt it to their needs or desires. The capabilities of the man machine interface can and will grow beyond this. And, as a people interested in highly intelligent gaming, it would behoove developers, players, spectators to participate in the growth of the interface.
The developers gain a tool, the players gain thrills. The players have the burden and the opportunity.
Finding ways to create new challenges is a first step. Create new standards of perfection. If a mechanic seems to enable great use of one ability in the game, then any other abilities that use that mechanic will be necessarily stronger. Perhaps being able to drop on the fly instantly will become a play-style strength. Perhaps the raven can be used to do quick wall offs, but only with a practiced motion. Perhaps a strong infestor composition with neural parasite can be discovered, where a critical mass of key small food units would be mind controlled in a large engagement. It would take skill and accuracy. And mostly immense practice. How else would you find out how much delay between each click is best for reaching each dropship exactly in time?
Learn to give up tools that weren't as effective for these tasks, like the single clicks. Those single clicks will still be the norm for all other tasks. But learn to use the new tools as voraciously and efficiently as possible. The speed of the raw clicks was never that important. They did not make you. The speed in changing selections, mouse positions, and switching your mouse from function to function was what took your time.
It is easy to take your mouse's complexity for granted. It is not as simple as the number of buttons on it. Here are a few: the shift click, the control click, the control shift click, the double click, the right click, and of course the single click. Your mouse has so many functions, not only based on which click you use, but where your cursor is located, and what is in your wire frame selection. This feature isn't making the mouse that much more powerful on its own. Its just another way to approach the same actions.
Now you have a choice. Read what I've thought of. It might strain your ethics. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
That program linked in the OP. First set up a profile for sc2.exe. Just click , click the '…' button and find your sc2.exe.
Now. It has a customizable option, under simulated keys. Go ahead and choose that for your middle button, not your scrolls. There is an option for "repeatedly while the button is held". Choose that. For your custom hotkey, you'll probably want {LMB} as your parameter. Set the delay to something between 50 and 100 ms. Don't go crazy with that number. 50 ms isn't a very long time. You'll be as quick as you need to be.
And if you can practice, you can use the regular interval of signals to do a sweep of near perfect force fields. Or an line of emps. You'll be able to surround units with infested terrans and instantly fungal your entire opponents roach mass in the big engagement. Feedback too, again though, with practice. Just like any other thing in this game.
Hey, while you're at it. Go ahead and set your right button. Set it to repeat {RMB} in the same way. Did you ever need to really only right click once on anything?
Maybe you're a protoss trying to block the hatchery of a zerg with a probe, but you can't make a good circle. Suddenly, all you have to do is move your mouse in a smooth arc and hold down that button.
Maybe you want to finally do flawless mineral stacking. Now you can.
Maybe you aren't good at shift target firing a line of units. I guess you are now.
Maybe you are being harassed by hellions. Just stop all your workers. Hold down the idle worker button and swing that beautiful right mouse button in an arc.
Maybe you can't squeeze your zerglings past a zealot that wasn't on hold position.
Maybe you want to send a drop out via the minimap, but you keep making the last leg of its journey too linear. Now, you can curve with the terrain perfectly.
A previous poster mentioned using the scroll up and down to do backspace and left click, respectively. He then selected all his queens, held v, and scrolled up one and down one for each inject. Its fine if you agree to my ethical analysis. It's clever, for sure.
The mechanic that has been realized is a directed rapid click. It has potential. The downsides aren't obvious. I picture it as a key you hold down, just like control and shift, to use in conjunction with your mouse. Accuracy, efficiency, and timing, as always, remain the standards of skill.
And here is my kicker, progamers, one of the largest upsides will be that your mouse wrist will be spared long term damage.
Kind of meaningless to me. You could use this logic to legitimize every exploit in every game, whether it was multiple actions happening by a single button on a mouse or any glitch/exploit in any game. Sometimes new technology isn't good just because it makes some tasks easier because sometimes those tasks were designed to be hard. Snipe is a good example of this snipe requires great stamina in clicking because the pay off for each click is really high. When stamina doesn't play a factor, the likelihood is that the spell will be nerfed sine it loses the limitations that were designed to keep it in check.
The irony of this topic is if blizzard is paying attention, the ghost is about to get a nerf. Whether thats a energy cost for snipe going up or a cooldown increase.
I personally think this technique isn't as bad for spamming zerglings or for spamming ITerrans because conceivably few outcomes would become highly unfavorable for opponents with the addition of the ability to shoot ITs faster. SAme thing about spamming the creation of zerglings. Right now the game is balanced around zerglings being spammed. But MOST people already argue that the ghost is a versatile unit on the cusp of being too efficient against everything zerg and a lot protoss. This is more likely to make that thing too good.
The logic is strictly limited to defining whether this can viewed as illegitimate rebinding, because the issue exists outside of the game, where definitions are far and few. It also extends beyond just this scroll. I came up with two different highly questionable, highly useful ways to rebind, and I referenced another guy who came up with his own. The whole point was that the game engine sees them the same way. There is no physics glitch possible like in the fps examples that keep coming up. There is no line that can be drawn, unless you force individual keypressing for everything. So essentially, my position is....might as well go balls deep and make it a good thing
Within the game, there are plenty of definitions. Its starcraft. Its built on rules. Starting conditions. Set pathfinding. Constant attributes.Unit u has v range, w size, x speed, y damage, z armor. I don't believe they focus on design by considering limitations in micro like you think they do. I am fairly sure they heavily consider everything in terms of hard limits, and rely on that to keep things in check. Energy per snipe, animation cooldown, range of snipe, damage of snipe, cost of ghost, build time of ghost, cost of energy upgrade etc. Microability might come into play, but only marginally.
On February 09 2012 19:11 Azzur wrote: According to Artosis, Nestea used this in his match against DRG!
If true, this settles the argument that it's 100% allowed in tournament play!
I don't think he did, NesTea had the IT's shift queued which throws them out incredibly fast. Unless Artosis was talking about a different spot that we didn't see, but I don't think so, as Nestea used like all but 2 of his infestors to go IT attack.
I confirm. Nestea used this trick against DRG. So it's seems to be allowed everywhere.
I asked the blizzard client service (the french one), i just got a "common" response. It's something like "you can bind action everywhere you want but you must keep one action by button".
Anyways, an important figure such as Artosis would undoubtedly have checked with Blizzard + tournament organisers about the legality of the mousewheel scroll. Thus, I'm 100% convinced (as I mentioned earlier in the thread) that this move is tournament-legal.
Until Blizzard or tournaments decide to explicitly ban it, anyone who thinks otherwise is just wrong.
People are not thinking it through well enough - whether Nestea did the trick or not is immaterial - the fact is, Artosis mentioned the trick himself on stream means that it's acceptable. Undoubtedly, Artosis would've contacted GOM/Blizzard/Other tournament organisers and asked about the validity of it. If it's not valid, surely he wouldn't have mentioned it on stream or some statement made.
On February 09 2012 20:04 Azzur wrote: Undoubtedly, Artosis would've contacted GOM/Blizzard/Other tournament organisers and asked about the validity of it. If it's not valid, surely he wouldn't have mentioned it on stream or some statement made.
No. Artosis doesn't run everything he considers saying in a cast by Blizzard before he even comes up with it.
I think it's pretty much the same as using a macro. It's not really a 1:1 keybind change because 1 action (mouse scroll) produces many left clicks, especially for free-spinning mouse wheels.
On February 09 2012 07:34 TheNessman wrote: I want to point out the subtelty that i think a lot of people are missing with the 1 to 1 key rebinding. The difference is that every single thing on your computer is a BUTTON except for the scroll wheel! it is a wheel, not a button, it is supposed to be used a bunch at one time, where as a button has to be pressed repeatedly to be used over and over again. scroll wheels are designed to have one motion (one scroll) == a bunch of equivalent key pressings.
how many times do you "scroll" to get to the bottom of the page? now how many times do you have to press the DOWN ARROW? and how long did those take you?
a wheel is INHERENTLY DIFFERENT than a button. This is something I feel a lot of people are over looking.
You can still bind Mouse button 1 to a keyboard button and adjust the repeat delay for that key and just hold that down istead of scrolling. Since keyboard button repeats itself unlike the left & right mouse buttons you can just hold it down and it will actually click faster than a scroll wheel would do.
Like this guy:
On February 09 2012 01:03 Spacedude wrote: This keyboard re-map method does give you more control over your mouse movement while mass casting spells, I feel - It's more comfortable than using the scroll wheel. It might be slightly slower than the wheel, tho?, with the 31 actions limit, anyhow.
oh then why isn't this a problem with holding down the key? also idk if you could hold down keys in bw hahahaha never tried ti
HM OH RIGHT they were talking about the delay from when you have the key pressed once before it starts repeating.
the thing is is that scroll wheels don't have that.
You can remove the inital repeat delay and then you can use keyboard keys just as fast as you can with scroll wheel. I said that in my post: "adjust the repeat delay for that key".
you CANNOT remove the initial repeat delay through control panel. which is the only way it is legit to me. If you remove it completely thats HACKING
You can set it lower in control panel... You can even set it lower in regedit.exe, Microsoft just never bothered to put it lower in control panel. If you use MAC, you can use the terminal to set it just as low as you can in regedit in Windows. Is Online tournaments going to ban starcraft 2 on MAC?
lol name 1 pro that plays on a mac
idk this is getting into the debate of how much hardware / software modification should be allowed. IDK the answer to that, I just feel like a wheel and a button are distinct enough to create a.... distinction. aka you can't just use them the same!
The game is still exactly the same on Mac... Im sure there are pro's that play on mac, however I can imagine many of them going over to a PC just because thats what tournaments use for their events.
That comment just made snap. Like a mousepad or keyboard or anything of that sort has anything to do with MVP(insert random pro here) being as good as he is.
This doesn't really show the balance of scroll clicking. In a real battle there would be infestors and the rest of z army+ your marines tanks and vikings to micro+ you wouldn't be able to que it up like that as you wouldn't have sight of their army.
This doesn't really show the balance of scroll clicking. In a real battle there would be infestors and the rest of z army+ your marines tanks and vikings to micro+ you wouldn't be able to que it up like that as you wouldn't have sight of their army.
Im having a hard time understanding how this is any worse than a storm drop orr burrowed infestor fungal spamming the mineral line. You know how many games ive lost to 2 or 3 fungals in my mineral line just wiping out ALL of my scv's? And you are gonna complain that somebody has to use two ghosts to snipe scv's ONE AT A TIME? Get real dude.
so should i also be banned because i rebound the sidebuttons on my mouse to 6/7 and use them for hotkeys? all i did was change it in my logitech drivers.
On February 10 2012 03:15 paschl wrote: so should i also be banned because i rebound the sidebuttons on my mouse to 6/7 and use them for hotkeys? all i did was change it in my logitech drivers.
On February 10 2012 03:15 paschl wrote: so should i also be banned because i rebound the sidebuttons on my mouse to 6/7 and use them for hotkeys? all i did was change it in my logitech drivers.
I also do this with one of my two sidebutton and i think its different. The side button is convenient in that it rests in an easy to press spot but it is also essentially a 1:1 bind and is actually harder to rapidly actuate (i use it to select banes and infestor groups rapidly but i never use it to double tap. Its not too much different than rebinding tilde for more convenience.
However the mouse click button to a wheel is completely different as 1 button "press/roll" translates to 8-9 clicks with my mouse and way more with a free spinning wheel.
It helps base sniping with IT's and spamming them mid battle much easier but im not sure how helpfull it is (i havent used it in a real game yet but i plan to)
However i am terrified of snipe, It is possible to transfuse people sniping brood unless they have sick fast fingers and this increases the skill for the terran clicking quikly and the zerg transfusing fast enough. However with the scroll wheel and enough ghosts it feel like im the man with the golden gun doing 1 shot kills. Sniping is SOO easy with this that every time i offrace i feel compelled to make ghosts lol.
Curious to see how this plays out, as it has some nice uses it seems like unit splitting and im sure im missing others so i dont immediately want it gone but it seems like it has heavy potential to break snipe and possibly IT spam.
I also just though about it, I feel like you could put control groups on the mousewheel as well as the keyboard. That way if you have to harass groups its easy to pop between two location by scrolling up for one and down for the other.
Edit: Even for protoss warping in units quickly. Seems like this has so much potential and its not necessarily a bad thing if some things get easier as it can open more room for other innovation. However if it gets too easy then its not necesarrily good [Example using the wheel for 2 control groups for precision harass = good whereas the fact that i can snipe faster than a pro gamer = bad in my opinion]
This will either be universally accepted, bringing the game to a higher level, or be the first trick to be banned in competitive SC2 (like allied mines in BW).
On February 10 2012 00:57 Magus.421 wrote: All the stuff in this movie is already possible. It just take a little more time to do and a little more "skill" to target units.
The difference is that without this trick, it gives to a casual gamer an APM about 500+...
... Try it yourself, sniping a mass of little unit is not such easy without this trick.
On February 10 2012 09:45 Doso wrote: You can't ban it, since you cannot control it online.
yes you can because it would be obvious when someone used it since its 50 times faster than doing it manually.... you would be able to see it instantly and if not an admin could watch the replay and see it for sure
On February 10 2012 06:16 Latham wrote: This will either be universally accepted, bringing the game to a higher level, or be the first trick to be banned in competitive SC2 (like allied mines in BW).
What about banning viking flower, spinning buildings, burrowed neural and void-ray phasing.
I found out about this over half year ago. Then I went to talk to team liquid admins if they think it's ok to use in tournaments. As it wasn't a macro, just a hot key change they were fine with it.
The reason I'm not using this is because it was very dependant on your hardware. Because I was spamming actions so fast it actually kept listening to those actions seconds after I stopped. So basically it was way too buggy on my computer. so the buggy part was basically like this. i spammed out snipes like crazy, it worked for about 2 seconds and then all my ghosts went on small cooldown with the snipe, then it started selecting the ultralisks for example instead, and it just kept spam clicking the standard left click select command on whatever i hovered over for a few seconds. so i was giving orders
about 3-4 times quicker than my computer could actually handle in starcraft 2, so scrolling for 1 second gave commands that kept going for about 2-3 more seconds after i stopped scrolling :p
However in the replay on cytos computer (he had stronger computer than mine) after he fixed this too, he managed to reach up to about 3000~ apm in the replay spamming infested terrans xD
Seeing that Morrow has tried it makes me wonder if any pros actually use this? I know I've seen Thorzain do some insanely fast snipes before, but have no idea if he uses this method.
On February 10 2012 06:16 Latham wrote: This will either be universally accepted, bringing the game to a higher level, or be the first trick to be banned in competitive SC2 (like allied mines in BW).
What about banning viking flower, spinning buildings, burrowed neural and void-ray phasing.
just tried it on a custom map. Doesn't seem very good imo. You can't use it without shift, and then if you do use shift your ghosts run up to try to snipe the units, leaving them really vulnerable.
On February 10 2012 13:44 MorroW wrote: I found out about this over half year ago. Then I went to talk to team liquid admins if they think it's ok to use in tournaments. As it wasn't a macro, just a hot key change they were fine with it.
The reason I'm not using this is because it was very dependant on your hardware. Because I was spamming actions so fast it actually kept listening to those actions seconds after I stopped. So basically it was way too buggy on my computer. so the buggy part was basically like this. i spammed out snipes like crazy, it worked for about 2 seconds and then all my ghosts went on small cooldown with the snipe, then it started selecting the ultralisks for example instead, and it just kept spam clicking the standard left click select command on whatever i hovered over for a few seconds. so i was giving orders
about 3-4 times quicker than my computer could actually handle in starcraft 2, so scrolling for 1 second gave commands that kept going for about 2-3 more seconds after i stopped scrolling :p
However in the replay on cytos computer (he had stronger computer than mine) after he fixed this too, he managed to reach up to about 3000~ apm in the replay spamming infested terrans xD
More proof that this technique is 100% tournament legal. With all this weight of evidence, I don't know why people are even arguing otherwise.
I've read alot of posts claiming that SC2 lacks micro tricks and then I see posts saying some new micro technique should be banned. Granted, these posts could be made by 2 different groups of ppl...
On February 06 2012 14:00 BicBootyBoi wrote: Wonder if this could be used for other things only thing i can think of would be warping in units
I'm sure someone else has replied to you, but yes. I tested this with almost all the units, scroll wheel is effective with warping in, however if you try and switch out the unit of the warp in it can cause you to select units and not actually warp anything in. Generally this is only useful if you have 8+ gates. I found it to be mildly effective with blink micro, when you are facing your opponent, you want to scroll your mouse starting closest to his army, and selecting units to blink away from his army. another way of saying it, mouse close to his army before blink, mouse behind your army after blink. Use upward scroll when facing people beneath you, downward scroll when facing people above you. Although the blink micro is very sloppy. this is super effective with ravens. Every spell it has basically autocasts like a mad man. Turrets now become infinitely easier to throw down and HSM goes almost at once although can be slightly overzealous. Obviously Snipe and IT and Feedback. It is mildy effective with forcefields but due to accuracy issues its up to the user. Transfuse is 100x more effective, Making banelings is 10000000x more effective, if you have to make 50 banelings usually it takes about 10 seconds to make while holding down the baneling key. By using the scroll you can make 50 in like 3-4 seconds (depending on you) Making units from hatcheries is still faster from holding down the key. But making drones is faster by scrolling and less straneous on your keyboard hand (for long term play), basically you just hover over the larva and scroll up and down. overlord drops more effective, same with any drops really. For marine micro against units that aren't banelings, if you have medivacs you can select the medivacs and have them heal the entire army evenly instead of just X at a time. I believe it also makes archons faster but I didn't actually make a comparison. Graviton beam is ridiculously more effective, a little less accurate but it makes large groups of pheonix more viable now, instead of having 1 guy pick up and 29 shoot. Mule call downs with lots of full OC is super effective, especially on vertical mineral patches as the motion of scrolling can let you start from the top patch down to the bottom or bottom up (with accuracy of course). Corruption is more or less effective, because it stacks without effect it also can waste energy with less accuracy. Pinging the map in custom games is 100X more effective. I can't think of anything more I did to test it out ^^
I really don't think there would be much wrong with doing this in tournaments, but that said, worst case scenario Blizzard will just patch it so mouse scrolls have to be longer to click or something like that...but definitely a very very cool trick XD
The reason I'm not using this is because it was very dependant on your hardware. Because I was spamming actions so fast it actually kept listening to those actions seconds after I stopped. So basically it was way too buggy on my computer. so the buggy part was basically like this. i spammed out snipes like crazy, it worked for about 2 seconds and then all my ghosts went on small cooldown with the snipe, then it started selecting the ultralisks for example instead, and it just kept spam clicking the standard left click select command on whatever i hovered over for a few seconds. so i was giving orders
about 3-4 times quicker than my computer could actually handle in starcraft 2, so scrolling for 1 second gave commands that kept going for about 2-3 more seconds after i stopped scrolling :p
...
This could actually be a driver issue. When I tried to set my Deathadder mouse wheel to click (using the stock Razer software), I ran into the issue above, even on an i7 2600k/gtx 570 box. However, replacing the wheel with clicks using an autohotkey script, I have no lag.
I'm not sure whether the third party software people keep referencing is any better than either of these options.
And (regarding the rest of the thread,) FWIW, all the mousewheel does is make snipe work the way it should, without having to jump through hoops like this. If your ghosts have the energy, and you can click on 6 targets, there's no reason it should take 20 seconds worth of mindless spam-clicking micro to spend the energy. If shift-click wasn't broken for ghosts, it would basically result in the same exact DPS as mousewheel/keyboard clicking.*
/rant
*And none of that means that ghosts are, or aren't, balanced. It might be the case that, if the mechanics of using a ghost weren't wholly broken, 25 energy is too cheap for snipe. I guess we'll find out.
EDIT: Well I guess we got the answer, because Blizzard is nerfing snipe down to 25 damage +25 psi damage. That's a pretty rough nerf to an ability that was pretty tough to use before the technique discussed in this thread. I won't feel so bad for using it now.
On February 10 2012 13:44 MorroW wrote: I found out about this over half year ago. Then I went to talk to team liquid admins if they think it's ok to use in tournaments. As it wasn't a macro, just a hot key change they were fine with it.
The reason I'm not using this is because it was very dependant on your hardware. Because I was spamming actions so fast it actually kept listening to those actions seconds after I stopped. So basically it was way too buggy on my computer. so the buggy part was basically like this. i spammed out snipes like crazy, it worked for about 2 seconds and then all my ghosts went on small cooldown with the snipe, then it started selecting the ultralisks for example instead, and it just kept spam clicking the standard left click select command on whatever i hovered over for a few seconds. so i was giving orders
about 3-4 times quicker than my computer could actually handle in starcraft 2, so scrolling for 1 second gave commands that kept going for about 2-3 more seconds after i stopped scrolling :p
However in the replay on cytos computer (he had stronger computer than mine) after he fixed this too, he managed to reach up to about 3000~ apm in the replay spamming infested terrans xD
It is dependant of your software, in fact. If you use the Razer Deathadder software, for example, you've got this issue. If you use X-Mouse instead, you don't have this behaviour, but you must use shift + spam and not just holding snipe + spam, cuz it's deselecting your unit and select the target (a way to counter that is too set the keyboard repitition over 1 key each 33ms, but it needs to "crack" windows 7).
On February 10 2012 13:44 MorroW wrote: I found out about this over half year ago. Then I went to talk to team liquid admins if they think it's ok to use in tournaments. As it wasn't a macro, just a hot key change they were fine with it.
The reason I'm not using this is because it was very dependant on your hardware. Because I was spamming actions so fast it actually kept listening to those actions seconds after I stopped. So basically it was way too buggy on my computer. so the buggy part was basically like this. i spammed out snipes like crazy, it worked for about 2 seconds and then all my ghosts went on small cooldown with the snipe, then it started selecting the ultralisks for example instead, and it just kept spam clicking the standard left click select command on whatever i hovered over for a few seconds. so i was giving orders
about 3-4 times quicker than my computer could actually handle in starcraft 2, so scrolling for 1 second gave commands that kept going for about 2-3 more seconds after i stopped scrolling :p
However in the replay on cytos computer (he had stronger computer than mine) after he fixed this too, he managed to reach up to about 3000~ apm in the replay spamming infested terrans xD
More proof that this technique is 100% tournament legal. With all this weight of evidence, I don't know why people are even arguing otherwise.
I've read alot of posts claiming that SC2 lacks micro tricks and then I see posts saying some new micro technique should be banned. Granted, these posts could be made by 2 different groups of ppl...
Micro tricks? lol? This is another way of making the game LESS micro heavy. Think boy, think...
On February 10 2012 13:44 MorroW wrote: I found out about this over half year ago. Then I went to talk to team liquid admins if they think it's ok to use in tournaments. As it wasn't a macro, just a hot key change they were fine with it.
The reason I'm not using this is because it was very dependant on your hardware. Because I was spamming actions so fast it actually kept listening to those actions seconds after I stopped. So basically it was way too buggy on my computer. so the buggy part was basically like this. i spammed out snipes like crazy, it worked for about 2 seconds and then all my ghosts went on small cooldown with the snipe, then it started selecting the ultralisks for example instead, and it just kept spam clicking the standard left click select command on whatever i hovered over for a few seconds. so i was giving orders
about 3-4 times quicker than my computer could actually handle in starcraft 2, so scrolling for 1 second gave commands that kept going for about 2-3 more seconds after i stopped scrolling :p
However in the replay on cytos computer (he had stronger computer than mine) after he fixed this too, he managed to reach up to about 3000~ apm in the replay spamming infested terrans xD
More proof that this technique is 100% tournament legal. With all this weight of evidence, I don't know why people are even arguing otherwise.
I've read alot of posts claiming that SC2 lacks micro tricks and then I see posts saying some new micro technique should be banned. Granted, these posts could be made by 2 different groups of ppl...
Micro tricks? lol? This is another way of making the game LESS micro heavy. Think boy, think...
Dont be so damn condescending, Discuss. Dont be a idiot
Yup, Patch 1.4.3. makes snipe 25 to non-psionic, so now this is basically a moot point. They can truly 2-shot Infestors, but now Ultras go from 11 to 19 snipes. It was fun getting to know you ghost, maybe I'll see you in HoTS for some as-yet-unrevealed reason.
Anyone else notice that Nestea appeared to use this vs DRG? He seemed to cast his infested terran a lot faster. I think Artosis pointed it out as well.
I seem to be unable to set my scroll wheel (up or down) as my left mouse button). Ive been trying to change it in the ingame hotkey menu, but its not working. Does this mean my mouse doesnt consider scrolling up or down as a button or am I supposed to do the change outside of the game?
Anyone else notice that Nestea appeared to use this vs DRG? He seemed to cast his infested terran a lot faster. I think Artosis pointed it out as well.
Thanks to patch 1.4.3, next time i random terran i use snipe to kill overseers and then cloak and autoattack the fucking broodlords, 25 (+25 vs psionic) my ass? snipe is a TERRIBLE MECHANIC, scrap it for something cool FFS!!! x.X
i mean, can't even kill banelings with snipe now TT *whine whine*
I MEAN SERIOUSLY, if you make enough ghosts to use snipe in order to kill ultralisks and broodlords? you may as well just cloak them and autoattack, using snipe to clear away threats like overseers or ultralisks...
I mean, snipe was an iffy spell, even in this thread, but i think something like 30 (+20 vs light) would be more reasonable (considering it would allow snipe to still kill workers etc, since both broodlords/ultras are armored/massive)
At this point, using the mousewheel is REQUIRED, i mean, who's gonna click 21 times to kill an ultralisk??? LOL not me...
This is not hacking at all, and there's no way blizzard could ban you on this unless they wanted to just ban anyone who reached a certain CPM.
All X-Mouse does is rebind mouse keys, and it's quite commonly used, by many people, who have no intention to mess with the game.
edit: How do you pull this off exactly? Do you hold shift? I tried this in a game (I've had x-mouse for a long time now) and it'd just pop one IT before left clicking on the ground. I never use shift to spam IT's (due to issues you get with pathing and multiple commands stringed up) so...
On February 06 2012 14:53 Cryllic wrote: i wonder if this is allowed in tournaments?
Unlikely as you would need to install a program on their computers before you play, from what little experience I have of tournaments this doesn't tend to happen for a variety of pretty obvious reasons.
Is it possible that there is a mouse that would let you do this?
There are mouses that stores keybindnings in a memory in the mouse so that it's the same wherever you plug it in, without needing to install something.
On a similar topic. It is possible to bind middle mouse button to attack move using X-mouse Button Control. Although that could be considered cheating since two actions are performed (Attack and left click).
On February 11 2012 07:06 StrikeNova wrote: I seem to be unable to set my scroll wheel (up or down) as my left mouse button). Ive been trying to change it in the ingame hotkey menu, but its not working. Does this mean my mouse doesnt consider scrolling up or down as a button or am I supposed to do the change outside of the game?
You need to change it using the software that was posted in the OP it cant be changed using the in game hotkey menu.
On February 11 2012 13:44 Belial88 wrote: This is not hacking at all, and there's no way blizzard could ban you on this unless they wanted to just ban anyone who reached a certain CPM.
All X-Mouse does is rebind mouse keys, and it's quite commonly used, by many people, who have no intention to mess with the game.
edit: How do you pull this off exactly? Do you hold shift? I tried this in a game (I've had x-mouse for a long time now) and it'd just pop one IT before left clicking on the ground. I never use shift to spam IT's (due to issues you get with pathing and multiple commands stringed up) so...
Once you have your mouse scroll both up and down set to left click simply select your infestors hold the T button while scrolling your mouse wheel up and down as fast as you can.
for example wow selling gold is illegal u get banned for it buying gold is borderline not allowed so u dont get banned for it but i still dont buy gold if u got banned for it u can't complain but probably wont get banned just like buying gold in wow
so aslong as its not a problem blizz will not ban it yet
... How could they possibly ban you for this? You are not using a macro. You are simply changing the bindings on your keys. If I changed my mouse bindings so that right click is left click and left click is right click, would they have justification for banning me?
What if I change right click to "space bar"?
You can change your bindings. Obviously. Watch any tournament and they will often speak of players needing to change the key bindings to what they are comfortable with.
Even a modicum of rational thought indicates this is nothing "illegal' or against any rules that Blizzard has ever published.
Funny how so many people think this is all legit...
I predict one of the two following things to happen now:
A) Nothing. However whoever does this will be catched by an automatic anti-hack script someday and you won't be able to talk yourself out of this situation then. B) Patch that puts a global cooldown on these abilities (likely if a better known player starts to do it).
dont think its legit. i mean the whole "its in driver" argument is pretty weak, i can do macro for my KB, dont even need to be complex, just spam 1 key to be 1-1. but thats doesnt means its legal. it should be fixed, banned by blizzard and all tournaments
I don't see the difference or why changing left click to mouse wheel is useful? Can some people scroll faster than they can click I guess? I'm not really sure why this is a thread or why anyone cares what key anyone else binds to an action. Use whatever is quickest and most comfortable for you.
Also people calling for banning cuz they don't like other peoples hotkeys are retarded.
On February 13 2012 07:29 Noelani wrote: I don't see the difference or why changing left click to mouse wheel is useful? Can some people scroll faster than they can click I guess? I'm not really sure why this is a thread or why anyone cares what key anyone else binds to an action. Use whatever is quickest and most comfortable for you.
Also people calling for banning cuz they don't like other peoples hotkeys are retarded.
......you dont see the difference? Either you haven't watched the Snipe video in the OP, you are completely blind, or youre completely in denial.
Of course you can scroll the mouse scroll faster than you can left click. Each tick on the mouse scroll counts as a left click, so that means if you scroll up completely one time thats probably 10 left clicks in the time it would normally take to do 2 left clicks
On February 12 2012 22:59 FeiLing wrote: Funny how so many people think this is all legit...
I predict one of the two following things to happen now:
A) Nothing. However whoever does this will be catched by an automatic anti-hack script someday and you won't be able to talk yourself out of this situation then. B) Patch that puts a global cooldown on these abilities (likely if a better known player starts to do it).
It's even more hilarious that even with all the evidence, you continue to believe that this is not legit. Morrow posted earlier that he discovered this 6 months ago and approached the TL admins regarding it - since it's a 1-to-1 binding, it was considered tournament-legal.
Artosis even mentioned in the GSL stream about the "new infestor technique". Consider the implications - if it's not legit, won't GOM issue a statement? Won't Blizzard say something?
I quickly went through all the pages and there's a slight chance I missed it somewhere.. but is this possible to setup during a tournament where you don't sit by your own computer but have your own mouse/keyboard with you?
It would be nice to get an official statement from Blizzard on this. I use a hotkey program to bind Ctrl+F1 to F2. It makes it simpler to select all inactive workers. Is that still a 1-to-1 binding if I have the Control modifier in there? Am I a dirty, filthy cheater? I have some others, too; like I map middle mouse button to Caps Lock so I can pan the camera around without a 3-button mouse.
This is an issue in fps games since cod4. People would bind attack to mwup or down. and then with their pistol it would be instant firing unloading a full clip of 12 bullets with one swipe of the finger. It was not banned from the game but most if not all the tournaments did make rules against it.
My thought is, if Blizzard doesn't offer the Left Click action to be a bindable key (which they don't), then the act of binding that action should be illegal. What if a mouse driver permitted the ability to spam multiple left click actions simply by holding down the left mouse button?
It's different because there's no 1:1 action? No, because I can hold down "D" for drones, son.
On February 10 2012 13:44 MorroW wrote: I found out about this over half year ago. Then I went to talk to team liquid admins if they think it's ok to use in tournaments. As it wasn't a macro, just a hot key change they were fine with it.
The reason I'm not using this is because it was very dependant on your hardware. Because I was spamming actions so fast it actually kept listening to those actions seconds after I stopped. So basically it was way too buggy on my computer. so the buggy part was basically like this. i spammed out snipes like crazy, it worked for about 2 seconds and then all my ghosts went on small cooldown with the snipe, then it started selecting the ultralisks for example instead, and it just kept spam clicking the standard left click select command on whatever i hovered over for a few seconds. so i was giving orders
about 3-4 times quicker than my computer could actually handle in starcraft 2, so scrolling for 1 second gave commands that kept going for about 2-3 more seconds after i stopped scrolling :p
However in the replay on cytos computer (he had stronger computer than mine) after he fixed this too, he managed to reach up to about 3000~ apm in the replay spamming infested terrans xD
increase the vertical scrolling in windows mouse wheel option, it may fix bug. i read something like that for the keyboard too-on reddit , if you increase repeat rate, you can use all your larva instantly, much faster. the delay between pressing a letter and it the 2nd letter showing up is much shorter
doesn't work for me the scroll wheel only responds to "one left click" after i scroll it down a bunch. i might have to change my settings but yea the implication this has on the game is revolutionary
Is there an official statement from Blizzard? I personally do not believe that this is legal. Why? Because you cannot change this setting within the StarcCraft2 Options and you have to use third party programs, even if it is just your mouse driver. Probably you will never be banned or warned for it, but there is in my opinion at least a slight risk using that.
On February 14 2012 15:48 IMoperator wrote: It isn't even that much of an advantage... no pro uses this.
This was mentioned by an earlier poster in this thread, but Nestea appeared to be using it against DRG in the round of 16. Artosis made a comment during his cast as the infested terrans were popping out very fast.. He called the technique 'new'
On February 14 2012 17:49 cerb wrote: Is there an official statement from Blizzard? I personally do not believe that this is legal. Why? Because you cannot change this setting within the StarcCraft2 Options and you have to use third party programs, even if it is just your mouse driver. Probably you will never be banned or warned for it, but there is in my opinion at least a slight risk using that.
This was my thought process as well, but other people mentioned that using a 1-to-1 binding is not illegal at all according to their TOS.
I guess our best bet would be to wait until Blizzard says something on their forums OR follow the rules of big tournaments like MLG or GSL.
imo there is nothing wrong about this or bannable ¬_¬ its not like a 3rd party software because its just a binding its not like it can be patched either so itll probably stay but there will only be a small number of players who will actually use it
On February 14 2012 01:43 dotDash wrote: I quickly went through all the pages and there's a slight chance I missed it somewhere.. but is this possible to setup during a tournament where you don't sit by your own computer but have your own mouse/keyboard with you?
Peace Dan
I'm almost positive it is depending on your mouse. For example I use a logitech g9 and I can program different "profiles" each with its own DPI and button settings (including remapping) and it's saved right onto the g9's on board memory.
Oh yeah so clever to say that there isn't anything against it in the rules at the moment.That's the nature of a new exploit - no one knew of it before... Why don't you send an email to blizz support to clarify if it's allowed? They'll send you a clear no, because they don't really care and disallow anything potential abusable. And you won't get a statement out of em either if they ban for it.
I am 100% sure however that Blizzard put something in the Terms of Use or wherever that allows them to ban you for basically no reason at all if they'd like to. And surely there is a passage about common sense too, maybe even related to the abuse of game mechanics etc. Sure go ahead and keep cheating. If enough people do it they might not even ban you but instead fix it (which would be way better as many people would still take the risk of getting banned even if they know bans were given out for this).
On February 17 2012 10:52 wildstyle1337 wrote: Stephano is using this, just saw game vs grubby, 30+ infested terrans at the same time, will try to dind this in vod of grubby stream later
You can still throw 30 infested terrans simultaneously by waypointing a move command before shift-clicking the infested terrans. so he could be doing that, or the scroll wheel.
It's really funny that people are getting upset and saying it's cheating. First of all- its not. It's just rebinding controls. Second, it's not even significant considering the ghost nerf.
On February 19 2012 10:02 DoctorFunk wrote: It's really funny that people are getting upset and saying it's cheating. First of all- its not. It's just rebinding controls. Second, it's not even significant considering the ghost nerf.
Get your facts right ... IT IS A MAKRO. Your mouse-software records a macro for you "mouse down; delay 0.00xxxx seconds, mouse up" so STOP saying its a mere rebind.
On February 19 2012 08:40 Sotark wrote: I set my Deathadders mouse click up and down to "click" in it's drivers settings. it didn't work, any help?
It worked fine on my Deathadder. Make sure you are changing the scrolling up and down and not just pressing the scroll wheel down - that threw me at first.
On February 19 2012 10:02 DoctorFunk wrote: It's really funny that people are getting upset and saying it's cheating. First of all- its not. It's just rebinding controls. Second, it's not even significant considering the ghost nerf.
Get your facts right ... IT IS A MAKRO. Your mouse-software records a macro for you "mouse down; delay 0.00xxxx seconds, mouse up" so STOP saying its a mere rebind.
Heh, maybe it is you instead who should get your facts straight... it's a 1-to-1 binding and NOT a macro. The mouse-software registers each scroll of the mousewheel as a left-click. Since you are able to scroll faster than you can left-click, the rebinding of the key allows very fast clicks.
On February 16 2012 06:08 FeiLing wrote: Oh yeah so clever to say that there isn't anything against it in the rules at the moment.That's the nature of a new exploit - no one knew of it before... Why don't you send an email to blizz support to clarify if it's allowed? They'll send you a clear no, because they don't really care and disallow anything potential abusable. And you won't get a statement out of em either if they ban for it.
I am 100% sure however that Blizzard put something in the Terms of Use or wherever that allows them to ban you for basically no reason at all if they'd like to. And surely there is a passage about common sense too, maybe even related to the abuse of game mechanics etc. Sure go ahead and keep cheating. If enough people do it they might not even ban you but instead fix it (which would be way better as many people would still take the risk of getting banned even if they know bans were given out for this).
Interesting that despite all the evidence (Morrow posting about it, Artosis mentioning it on the GSL stream) you continue to insist that this is cheating?
The only thing you have right in your post is that the ToS is worded in such a way that they can ban you for almost anything. But that's beside the point - as long as big tournaments allow this, how can you say it's cheating?
On February 16 2012 06:08 FeiLing wrote: Oh yeah so clever to say that there isn't anything against it in the rules at the moment.That's the nature of a new exploit - no one knew of it before... Why don't you send an email to blizz support to clarify if it's allowed? They'll send you a clear no, because they don't really care and disallow anything potential abusable. And you won't get a statement out of em either if they ban for it.
I am 100% sure however that Blizzard put something in the Terms of Use or wherever that allows them to ban you for basically no reason at all if they'd like to. And surely there is a passage about common sense too, maybe even related to the abuse of game mechanics etc. Sure go ahead and keep cheating. If enough people do it they might not even ban you but instead fix it (which would be way better as many people would still take the risk of getting banned even if they know bans were given out for this).
Interesting that despite all the evidence (Morrow posting about it, Artosis mentioning it on the GSL stream) you continue to insist that this is cheating?
The only thing you have right in your post is that the ToS is worded in such a way that they can ban you for almost anything. But that's beside the point - as long as big tournaments allow this, how can you say it's cheating?
I think I saw someone who sent an email to Blizzard and asked about it in this thread, or somewhere else on liquid, and they basically got "yes, np, go ahead, use it, it's fine." from Blizzard. It's just binding keys & changing some keyboard settings, no different from changin mouse DPI.
in beta infested terrans used to come out two at a time but cost 50 energy. I find the consequence of having to do so many actions takes away from everything else you have to do. If I can expend all my infestor energy and then begin to baneling drop it would make bane rain considerably more effective then it is now. I've always contemplated doing this but wasn't entirely sure what kind of driver support or legal issues would come up in tournaments.
I changed the setting on my DeathAdder driver then tried it in the Unit Tester and my computer literally crashed... I got a blue screen and my computer restarted on it's own. That's nice.
It doesn't look like my Razer Copperhead driver software offers scroll up/down functionality. Of course, wouldn't you know it, I can program every OTHER button, but not scroll up/down.
On February 22 2012 10:32 -ReMeDy- wrote: It doesn't look like my Razer Copperhead driver software offers scroll up/down functionality. Of course, wouldn't you know it, I can program every OTHER button, but not scroll up/down.
If you have a programmable keyboard, or even just with the use of a script, you can do the same thing with your keyboard instead, with even faster results.
Is there a difference between the bumped/stepped scroll wheels and the smooth ones? I wouldn't have thought that the bumped/stepped wheels would respond much faster than just regular clicking. Personally I'm using (which had great potential for a mouse concept but overall is rather disappointing) Using the software it's only possible to rebind the "joysticks", so I set it so that when the left joystick is pressed forward, perform a click (it results in repeating if held down — kinda dicey-ish maybe).
What I'm curious about is at certain live in-person tournaments, dont you sometimes have to use official computers supplied by the tournament? I think the majority of tournmanents this is not the case, but let's say one does this. Now all of a sudden you need to break out of this mouse scroll habit, which will effect your play.
On February 22 2012 11:59 -ReMeDy- wrote: What I'm curious about is at certain live in-person tournaments, dont you sometimes have to use official computers supplied by the tournament? I think the majority of tournmanents this is not the case, but let's say one does this. Now all of a sudden you need to break out of this mouse scroll habit, which will effect your play.
All the top tournaments allow you to bring your own keyboard + mice. It's not fair for a LAN tournament to enforce someone playing a equipment they are not used to.
On February 22 2012 12:02 Azzur wrote:All the top tournaments allow you to bring your own keyboard + mice. It's not fair for a LAN tournament to enforce someone playing a equipment they are not used to.
Keyboard and mice, yea, but what about an entire tower case? After all, that's where the scroll up/down software is stored. Is that fine too?
On February 22 2012 12:02 Azzur wrote:All the top tournaments allow you to bring your own keyboard + mice. It's not fair for a LAN tournament to enforce someone playing a equipment they are not used to.
Keyboard and mice, yea, but what about an entire tower case? After all, that's where the scroll up/down software is stored. Is that fine too?
tournaments let you install your mouse drivers
this functionality is built into many the drivers of many high profile gaming accessories such as razer
On February 22 2012 11:45 InfDelta wrote: people are talking about a third party program but i use a razer mouse and at lans you can use your mouse drivers so could that make it legal
No, whether it's a circuit, software in the mouse, or software in the computer, it's all still automation. The rule Blizzard has specified has been mentioned various times: 1 electronic action per 1 physical action (although as far as I know it seems that there's an exception with repeating the same key in succession, which is understandable considering that holding down a keyboard key provides that effect)
On February 22 2012 12:02 Azzur wrote:All the top tournaments allow you to bring your own keyboard + mice. It's not fair for a LAN tournament to enforce someone playing a equipment they are not used to.
Keyboard and mice, yea, but what about an entire tower case? After all, that's where the scroll up/down software is stored. Is that fine too?
I had 2 DeathAdders that simply broke - issuing double clicks every time I clicked. So it's legal and unenforceable. Also, nobody would stop me from building my own mouse, with its own logic, be it "left click for each millimeter of horizontal travel" or something more advanced. So again, not enforceable. A driver setting (as long as it doesn't involve a Windows mouse event hook) is proper usage and something to level the field. Furthermore, going to something like AutoHotkey is more of that "leveling the field".
Also, keyboard drivers that issue macros do that by injecting Windows keyboard hooks into the target applications. That is cheat-detectable. It's how AutoHotkey, FRAPS, Daemon Tools, antivirus software works. Given the nature of the general-purpose computer, GetPixel() and SendEvent(WM_KEY*) should be enough to create an undetectable perfect AI.
Nothing to see here, move along, use it if you feel like it helps, though the effect should be minimal. I, personally, don't like the feeling of the scroll wheel, and I won't be using this at my Platinum level.
On February 22 2012 12:02 Azzur wrote:All the top tournaments allow you to bring your own keyboard + mice. It's not fair for a LAN tournament to enforce someone playing a equipment they are not used to.
Keyboard and mice, yea, but what about an entire tower case? After all, that's where the scroll up/down software is stored. Is that fine too?
Not necessarily. There's hardware level drivers on your mouse a lot of times too. That, and firmware.
Okay , someone should PM explain to me how this is right and making macros on your keyboard is wrong. Actually, don't do that i don't care , they both take no skill and i am strictly against them, please don't abuse this, if Blizzard wanted us to use scroll wheel as a hotkey they would've made it possible like in CounterStrike.
On February 28 2012 07:49 Gravity3 wrote: Okay , someone should PM explain to me how this is right and making macros on your keyboard is wrong. Actually, don't do that i don't care , they both take no skill and i am strictly against them, please don't abuse this, if Blizzard wanted us to use scroll wheel as a hotkey they would've made it possible like in CounterStrike.
A macro is a feature that allows you to submit multiple actions with one click of a single button. Like i can do A-B-C-D-E-F with a macro.
Scrolling is one-action-a-time. Every step you scroll, is just one scroll, one mouse click. So if I scroll once I get A. If I scroll for longer periods I get AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
If I click the button A once, I get A. If I hold the button A, I get AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Rebinding the scroll wheel from zoom, to left mouse button still issues one action at a time. I dont get how you can compare it to a macro, which is a multiple action holder.
On February 28 2012 07:49 Gravity3 wrote: Okay , someone should PM explain to me how this is right and making macros on your keyboard is wrong. Actually, don't do that i don't care , they both take no skill and i am strictly against them, please don't abuse this, if Blizzard wanted us to use scroll wheel as a hotkey they would've made it possible like in CounterStrike.
A macro is a feature that allows you to submit multiple actions with one click of a single button. Like i can do A-B-C-D-E-F with a macro.
Scrolling is one-action-a-time. Every step you scroll, is just one scroll, one mouse click. So if I scroll once I get A. If I scroll for longer periods I get AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
If I click the button A once, I get A. If I hold the button A, I get AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Rebinding the scroll wheel from zoom, to left mouse button still issues one action at a time. I dont get how you can compare it to a macro, which is a multiple action holder.
Bro , didn't i just say that i didn't care, what's wrong with you and your dumb mouse scroll wheel.Just use the newbie trick and keep sucking at Starcraft2.It doesn't take any skill ,you're not even clever if you use,it you are just a noob. Just as i said in my previous comment if Blizzard wanted us to use mouse scroll wheel they would've fuckin let us in the hotkey options, so ignorant ...lol
On February 28 2012 20:06 monkybone wrote: If you see game 2 of Nestea vs Naniwa in Losers Bracket Round 3 in the MLG winter arena, at 23:00, Nestea seems to be using the mouse wheel trick for his infestors. Characteristically for this method, every infested Terran is launched in a single spot, distributing themselves as close to it as possible. Also, every infestor launch infested terrans simulaneously, something which doesn't happen the same way with queue shift+click. The reason is that the queued up move command must finish before infested terrans will be launched, and not every infestor will end their move command simultaneously, hence a slight delay.
Don't sweep it under the carpet, this saves a lot of APM. Mouse wheel launching infested terrans takes no more work than a single click, but shift queue requires a lot of clicks, and quite a bit more time, especially in a battle. You simply can't decide to launch 30 infested terrans the instant you decide to with the shift queue method.
But seriously, people are exaggerating the impact of this method. You are "strictly against it because it requires no skill"? What kind of skill are we talking about, clicking really fast? That's ridiculous.
I understand what you're saying ,but if we overlook every trick that people can abuse in this game it's going to become a problem. It all adds up and suddenly some guy that has all the cool drivers and peripherals will have a distinct advantage over others.
MLG's rules for this just-completed Winter Arena prohibited changes to the mouse drivers for effects such as this. So, while it's true that people bring their own mice, which have drivers that need to be installed on the computer, MLG's rules prohibit making such changes within the driver.
1. Players must provide their own mouse, keyboard, headset, and mouse pad. Players must use the PC and Monitor provided by MLG. 2. Players must provide their own Battle.net account, with an active Starcraft 2 license, for the North America (NA) Region. 3. Please submit all mouse, keyboard, and headset driver requirements to kkramer@mlgpro.com by 11:59 PM ET on Thursday, February 23rd. 4. All Player equipment is subject to approval. 5. Headsets must utilize a standard 3.5mm stereo headset jack with a separate 3.5mm microphone jack. Players may not use USB headsets. 6. Mice and keyboards must utilize standard USB interfaces. Players may not use PS2 interface equipment. 7. Players may not use 3rd party Add-ons. 8. Players may not alter game files or modify drivers. 9. Players may not disable the “Save All Replays” Gameplay Option, remove a replay, or copy a replay. 10. Players may not watch a replay while at a Tournament Station. 11. Players may not have applications, browsers, or streams open other than the Starcraft 2 launcher or application and any necessary drivers. 12. Players may not change the Computer/Monitor sound and video settings in Windows. 13. Players who break Equipment Rules #5-12 will be given a Warning. Each subsequent Warning that a Player receives will result in a Forfeit of the Game (See Gameplay Rule #12).
On February 29 2012 05:16 Gravity3 wrote: I understand what you're saying ,but if we overlook every trick that people can abuse in this game it's going to become a problem. It all adds up and suddenly some guy that has all the cool drivers and peripherals will have a distinct advantage over others.
Perhaps, but not in this case. Drivers and such offers only a limited array of benefits, like hotkey rebindings, in order to interact more smoothly with the game. It can't give you benefits which doesn't require the clicks that actually go into it. Say, you can't have a driver making your marines spread automatically, or your roaches making a concave. Neither will drivers ping your minimap when enemies are in vision, or maintain continuous SCV production. That would require a hack. The advantages skilled players have due to superior control and awareness just can't be bought through things as simple as hotkey rebindings or equipment. A plat player is a plat player no matter how much cool stuff he has.
Technically, you could set up a driver for constant worker production, by having a macro which repeats every however many seconds. This is, however, against the ToS. Not that I do this, (I don't), but a macro could trigger a control group and issue the command to make a worker. Then when you have enough workers, simply change what is bound in that control group so something like a supply depot, so it would effectively be 'turned off'. This is pretty bad as you will no doubt be in the middle of doing other things when this triggers, but technically, it is possible.
On February 28 2012 07:49 Gravity3 wrote: Okay , someone should PM explain to me how this is right and making macros on your keyboard is wrong. Actually, don't do that i don't care , they both take no skill and i am strictly against them, please don't abuse this, if Blizzard wanted us to use scroll wheel as a hotkey they would've made it possible like in CounterStrike.
A macro is a feature that allows you to submit multiple actions with one click of a single button. Like i can do A-B-C-D-E-F with a macro.
Scrolling is one-action-a-time. Every step you scroll, is just one scroll, one mouse click. So if I scroll once I get A. If I scroll for longer periods I get AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
If I click the button A once, I get A. If I hold the button A, I get AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Rebinding the scroll wheel from zoom, to left mouse button still issues one action at a time. I dont get how you can compare it to a macro, which is a multiple action holder.
Bro , didn't i just say that i didn't care, what's wrong with you and your dumb mouse scroll wheel.Just use the newbie trick and keep sucking at Starcraft2.It doesn't take any skill ,you're not even clever if you use,it you are just a noob. Just as i said in my previous comment if Blizzard wanted us to use mouse scroll wheel they would've fuckin let us in the hotkey options, so ignorant ...lol
I think that you just proved that you are the ignorant one. He explained clearly why this is different than a keyboard macro. For you, it went in one ear, out the other, then you demonstrated to the TL community that you have the intelligence and composure of an angry 12 year old. You just probably don't know how to use this rebind so you attack those that do, even though the difference it makes in gameplay is pretty minute.
I love how everyone complains that this trick makes the game easier, as if mashing your Mouse 1 key indiscriminately and without any concern for accuracy, a movement so gross that any player not being able to do it at roughly the same speed as MVP or Nestea would be a sign of neurological dysfunction, has anything to do whatsoever with Starcraft skill.
A better question is whether or not infested terrans are too strong if significantly more can hatch at the same speed.
I dont know if its technically legal or not, but i feel like tricks such as these lower the skill level of SC2. When the game was first coming out, players were worried that it wouldnt match up to BW because of the easy macro (hotkeyable production buildings, automining) and i feel like this is just another trick that is making the game easier and lowering the skill cap of Starcraft 2.
On February 29 2012 05:16 Gravity3 wrote: I understand what you're saying ,but if we overlook every trick that people can abuse in this game it's going to become a problem. It all adds up and suddenly some guy that has all the cool drivers and peripherals will have a distinct advantage over others.
Perhaps, but not in this case. Drivers and such offers only a limited array of benefits, like hotkey rebindings, in order to interact more smoothly with the game. It can't give you benefits which doesn't require the clicks that actually go into it. Say, you can't have a driver making your marines spread automatically, or your roaches making a concave. Neither will drivers ping your minimap when enemies are in vision, or maintain continuous SCV production. That would require a hack. The advantages skilled players have due to superior control and awareness just can't be bought through things as simple as hotkey rebindings or equipment. A plat player is a plat player no matter how much cool stuff he has.
Technically, you could set up a driver for constant worker production, by having a macro which repeats every however many seconds. This is, however, against the ToS. Not that I do this, (I don't), but a macro could trigger a control group and issue the command to make a worker. Then when you have enough workers, simply change what is bound in that control group so something like a supply depot, so it would effectively be 'turned off'. This is pretty bad as you will no doubt be in the middle of doing other things when this triggers, but technically, it is possible.
And you could do this without interacting with the game files? You may be right, and I don't see how blizzard can punish this sort of thing. Is it considered illegal by blizzard?
You can do it without interacting with game files. It is considered illegal by Blizzard, since it's more than one action per click. It's a macro that any 'macro-able' keyboard is capable of, including the Razer Marauder endorsed by Blizzard. However, I believe I've read that their endorsement of the keyboard itself does not mean they permit all of its functionality (macros that violate one click = one action) to be used on Battle.net.
To do this do you have to set scroll sensitivity very high? I tried it a few times in unit test maps and it doesn't seem to really go very quickly by just scrolling up and down.
On March 03 2012 23:24 oOOoOphidian wrote: To do this do you have to set scroll sensitivity very high? I tried it a few times in unit test maps and it doesn't seem to really go very quickly by just scrolling up and down.
Or you could buy a Logitech G500 mouse. This kind of mouse has a scroll wheel button that takes the resistance or clicks off the wheel and lets it spin freely with close to no friction.
On March 02 2012 14:12 Outrageouss wrote: I dont know if its technically legal or not, but i feel like tricks such as these lower the skill level of SC2. When the game was first coming out, players were worried that it wouldnt match up to BW because of the easy macro (hotkeyable production buildings, automining) and i feel like this is just another trick that is making the game easier and lowering the skill cap of Starcraft 2.
lol so clikcing one button over and over as fast as possible ("normal" infester terran use) with no thought input = skill now?
EPT
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