EPTI really wish you were right, but hundreds of games have shown me otherwise. Please provide a replay where you deal no significant damage with the opener and then survive a strong drg-esque aggression and proceed to win the game later on and I'll reconsider perhaps.
[G] Playing Mech in TvZ - No more banelings. - Page 10
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
I really wish you were right, but hundreds of games have shown me otherwise. Please provide a replay where you deal no significant damage with the opener and then survive a strong drg-esque aggression and proceed to win the game later on and I'll reconsider perhaps. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:06 Debian wrote: Can someone tell me how to deal with a zerg that gets UBER early 3rd (5:50)? I can pressure it with hellions but that's about it. Is there any timing I can hit to take it out? I want to point out that a 6 min third is not uber early. This is around the point where I am saturated on 2 base with 3 gasses just finished. | ||
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Pikachu.
Sweden7 Posts
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Sennin
Belgium50 Posts
On June 29 2012 18:56 Pikachu. wrote: So what it the ultimate late game composition? Mass thor with bf hellions? Or a mixture of every mech unit? The post says something about going sky terran in the late game. Might be what you're looking for. | ||
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LemonyTang
United Kingdom428 Posts
On June 29 2012 18:56 Pikachu. wrote: So what it the ultimate late game composition? Mass thor with bf hellions? Or a mixture of every mech unit? BC Raven Viking hellion re:a replay where I do no damage and survive a roach max, I can't find one where I did no damage and also was attacked with roaches but will ask a jerg friend to try this on me soon. All I can show you is this replay: http://drop.sc/209545 where I do no damage but win the game anyway, vs a GM zerg on NA apparently | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On June 29 2012 19:06 LemonyTang wrote: BC Raven Viking hellion re:a replay where I do no damage and survive a roach max, I can't find one where I did no damage and also was attacked with roaches but will ask a jerg friend to try this on me soon. All I can show you is this replay: http://drop.sc/209545 where I do no damage but win the game anyway, vs a GM zerg on NA apparently Thats a TvP  upload the right replay and I'll look into it | ||
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LemonyTang
United Kingdom428 Posts
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On June 29 2012 23:48 LemonyTang wrote: Oh sorry, it's cloaked so I assumed it was the right one. http://drop.sc/209841 This guy has 3 queens and no creep spread when you arrive. He's therefore not playing very greedily. You force 9 Roaches that he does no damage with and you kill 3 queens, that together is SUBSTANTIAL damage. Then he transitions into spire that he makes 7 mutas out of. At 10 min he's at 45 drones while you are at 52 scvs. The damage that you dealt (more like he inflicted on himself) makes the game kinda pointless for my sake. That was a pretty good indication of a zerg doing everything he should not do. I didn't watch past 13 min, but if he actually did any damage to you and was even remotely close to winning then that should indicate something. Trying to find a game that shows the scenario that I'm talking about. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
On June 28 2012 13:59 vBr wrote: Unfortunatly, mech does not have a counter for this. I played mech till GM level but with the new patch, you are lying to yourself if you think you can defend against a capeable zerg who realises that in the early midgame the terran defence consists of 4-6 thors, 3-4 banshees, maybe a couple of siege tanks when he himself can max out on roaches by 12 minutes (and that is a generous amount of units for the terran). The whole point of the banshee hellion build was, initially, to totally prevent a zerg from being able to take a third until he got mutas. This is just not the case anymore and a zerg can defend without using larva for anything but drones, consequently, they have a timing between around 10 min and 15 min when you have no chance of defending, should they try to attack. This is a huge current flaw with mech and one that unfortunatly makes mech not viable right now (unless you ignore it and plow on, but at 1300-1400 master, many zergs employ such a strategy) Unfortunately and sadly I'm starting to agree. I played mech with a pretty darn good win rate (i've played probably around 150-200 games) but as of late the mid game is just a nightmare. 6 queen opening into roaches makes it seemingly impossible to do any significant damage. From there zerg takes a third, maxes on roach ling mixes, and then just pummels the 3rd into oblivion. Mech doesn't really allow for counterattacks the way marine tank and mmm do imo. I also feel that tanks just don't cover enough area to protect both the third and the nat and if they can the main is very vulnerable to drop play. mathematically it just seems tough. Early midgame terran is at 5 fact at MOST, or 4 tank/2 hellion, whereas 3 base zerg can output 18 larve in the same amount of time. A superior economy and an even is not better army production capability just seems like bad news to me | ||
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Debian
Canada95 Posts
http://drop.sc/212699 Replay. Basically I had +2 attack for ground and +2 for air. I should have upgraded more but whatever. Summer: I got bane roach allined and he did alot of damage (37 worker kills) and threw me off but his economy wasn't that great so I was still in the game. I couldn't counter attack with banshees because of spores. I eventually stablized but I could never push him. I eventually took out his army once then he just remaxed on hydras I tried to use tanks but that didn't work because they all got owned by infested terran + hydras. I tried to use blue lame hellions a couple times but the numbers weren't massive and they all died like instantly. So what exactly do you do if they remax on hydras? | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
The problem isn't mech, but that the build listed in this thread don't allow for any countermeasure against the zerg being very greedy, and don't establish a fast enough economy. A change in build order to change the progression of the game will solve the problems of zergs maxing out on roaches. A build I have been doing at mid masters is 2 rax, double cc, then 2 more raxes, you use the 4 raxes to wall off your natural, and put a bunker behind. Any 6-9 minute all in is deflected, and the 4 raxes allow for aggression against creep spread and a fast third. Bomber used this build in Code A against Freaky I think, and I think it's a build that should be explored. After the 4 raxes, you quickly get all your gases and then get mech. If you don't die to a timing, and have trouble against any roach/infestor/x compositions. I think that you don't need to go mass tanks. 4-5 will do, they can target fire down all the infestors pretty quickly, then help kill all the roaches quickly enough. Too many tanks and you're too immobile and will die if you don't siege quickly enough, and not enough tanks will mean that infestors can do whatever, and roaches will trade too cost efficiently. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On July 01 2012 12:30 phiinix wrote: I'd like to see a replay of this 6queen, fast third, into roaches. I do a push at 11:00 ish once the two thors are done with my Banshees and Hellions as well, and the best counter to that I've fought against is Infestors with a combination of Fungal and Infested Terrans, and he just doesn't have that if he goes for the fast third since it delays his lair.Unfortunately and sadly I'm starting to agree. I played mech with a pretty darn good win rate (i've played probably around 150-200 games) but as of late the mid game is just a nightmare. 6 queen opening into roaches makes it seemingly impossible to do any significant damage. From there zerg takes a third, maxes on roach ling mixes, and then just pummels the 3rd into oblivion. Mech doesn't really allow for counterattacks the way marine tank and mmm do imo. I also feel that tanks just don't cover enough area to protect both the third and the nat and if they can the main is very vulnerable to drop play. mathematically it just seems tough. Early midgame terran is at 5 fact at MOST, or 4 tank/2 hellion, whereas 3 base zerg can output 18 larve in the same amount of time. A superior economy and an even is not better army production capability just seems like bad news to me Roach/Queen doesn't work amazingly since I can just park my Banshees over my Thors and my Hellions next to them, and use the superior range of my ground units over Roaches to keep them away and cover the Banshees by focusing down Queens with my two Thors if he focuses down my Banshees with them, and if he gets too close with lots of Roaches my Banshees and Hellions go to town. Hellions do a lot of splash in numbers to clumped roaches. | ||
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Crowned
United States368 Posts
On July 04 2012 15:48 Fencar wrote: I'd like to see a replay of this 6queen, fast third, into roaches. I do a push at 11:00 ish once the two thors are done with my Banshees and Hellions as well, and the best counter to that I've fought against is Infestors with a combination of Fungal and Infested Terrans, and he just doesn't have that if he goes for the fast third since it delays his lair. Roach/Queen doesn't work amazingly since I can just park my Banshees over my Thors and my Hellions next to them, and use the superior range of my ground units over Roaches to keep them away and cover the Banshees by focusing down Queens with my two Thors if he focuses down my Banshees with them, and if he gets too close with lots of Roaches my Banshees and Hellions go to town. Hellions do a lot of splash in numbers to clumped roaches. Replay of this push? | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
Add a few Hellions and put Thors around 30 seconds earlier due to supply blocks and me not putting guys in natural gas, which means delayed Banshees and Thors when my factories finish. This should not be done against a Zerg who is going fast lair, as he will have lair tech out in either Mutalisks or Infestors, and both of these throw this for a loop as against Mutalisks, you have to have the Thors at home to defend your minerals, and against Infestors your push will die to Fungals and Infested Terrans without Siege Tanks to kill the Infestors. I don't have a replay against a real opponent because one of two things happen: The Zerg doesn't do 6 queen 3 hatch. I screw up and don't have thors out. Even in vs AI, I had to do 3 games before I managed to get these results. I have to practice more.  This is more of a discussion topic to try and beat the 6 queen 3 hatch opener than anything. It's better than QQing and waiting for a buff in any case. | ||
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Toastie.NL
Netherlands232 Posts
It was a 12-14 rax, cc, cc, 2 more rax, getting 1 reacotfact and 1 techfact for blueflame and push. Afterwards, cut marine production and start meching. It felt very safe, also against early mutalisk before Thor. You use the 4 rax for walls and later maybe for Ghost production. | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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chambertin
United States1704 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls. Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this? | ||
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LemonyTang
United Kingdom428 Posts
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable? I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls. Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this? It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them. That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch. | ||
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