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Italy12248 Posts
On February 08 2012 05:05 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, I think phoenixes are a cute, fun unit vs T, and they help to prevent T from stacking medivacs which eventually makes the bio ball invincible to chargelots, but I don't know when I'd work them into this build. It seems like I'd want HT, then DT, then colossi, and each would be more needed than phoenixes.
I'm still uploading replays when I get a good game. I beat a semi-pro with it yesterday, but he BMed me kind of out of the blue, so he asked me not to upload it. Anyone have any high level replays to add? My multitasking is pretty crappy, and I'd love to see what better players can do with this style. It's always fun to watch.
Regarding phoenixes, i remember HerO opening 2gate phoenix against marineking at wcg and following that up with chargelot archon. I remember he made sure to keep 4-5 up even when he lost them in engagements specifically to take out the medivacs, it was quite neat. I don't know if the vods are available anywhere, but that sounds like the best way to implement phoenix in someone's play. In the midgame there's more important stuff to spend your money on, sadly.
edit: so i have played around with the opening a little bit, and i haven't played a single real game yet out of 8 or so attempts. Not having the robo and no stalker poke means i consinstently die to retarded shit like 2port banshee, 111 with hellion drops, straight up 111, reactor hellions (i hate relying on a single ff to not die -.-) or even 1base medivac. It's probably me just being god-awful, but eh.
How do you make all these reads with just a 20ish scout (which i don't do myself), super late robo and infinity resources invested in tech? I mean, randomly moving out on the map with stalkers 6 minutes into the game when all you have seen is a walled off ramp isn't particularly smart no?
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Added a rep against a pretty highly ranked GM last season. The drop stage of this strategy is so much fun, but I typically average 90-100 APM on the in-game metric, and even after a lot of practice, I'm still unable to macro well at all while I'm attacking. Has anybody with 120+ Blizz APM tried this out? Any replays or tips?
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nice looks interesting, any reps vs 1/1/1? U dont really have a early scout like haulcination or observer so dont you just straight up lose to 1/1/1 or cloacked banshee? Rep please?
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This is the build that's been owning me lately. Really hard to play against even with early ghosts T.T
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On February 17 2012 00:40 jakek95 wrote:
nice looks interesting, any reps vs 1/1/1? U dont really have a early scout like haulcination or observer so dont you just straight up lose to 1/1/1 or cloacked banshee? Rep please?
Don't do this build if they don't FE. You can find out if they FE with probe scout in combination with zealot stalker scout once probe confirms that the poke is safe.
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Thank you KaseyDC, I have long enjoyed your 1 gate FE with 3 stalkers opener. I always make it to at least mid-game with that build because of the great economy that comes with the very aggressive 3 stalkers and one zealot in the early game. If I make it to late game I usually win, but the mid game when I'm trying to establish my third to get a good templar tech or occasionally collos tech going is where I lose.
So this TWO base templar aggressive tech is very interesting to me. I have read your guide twice and watched all your replays. In general, I'd like to see more ladder game replays if you have the chance to upload more :D
I have a few questions if you wouldn't mind giving the time:
1. Do you ever miss the 3-4 stalkers in the early game both for aggression on their natural and map control?
2. How confident are you at defending early drops? (often I will lose to a drop in the main, then a push in the natural, and a drop of about 4 marines in the mineral line of my natural >< )
3. I love how you prevent the terran from pressuring your natural while you're establishing your third by being agressive with the warp-ins and the natural push. Do you find that if you fail to do damage with the first set of drop/warp-ins (or natural push from the drop distraction) that the counter attack destroys you? It seems that if you screw up or get unlucky with his scouting when it comes to your drop that you are then very vulnerable to a counter attack.
Thank you for everything, and I look forward to more discussions from you. Your analysis and reasoning behind decisions is always fantastic. In particular, what I love most about this build besides that you can get aggressive off of two bases is how well the gas works out. It truly is amazing watching your replays to see the same exact timings every game. I was skeptical at a templar/+1wpns+2arm/charge rush all based off two gates, but those replays were so fun to watch that I want to believe this can work!!
Edit: Just spelling from typin' too fast
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On February 17 2012 22:58 RynoKenny wrote:
I have a few questions if you wouldn't mind giving the time:
1. Do you ever miss the 3-4 stalkers in the early game both for aggression on their natural and map control?
2. How confident are you at defending early drops? (often I will lose to a drop in the main, then a push in the natural, and a drop of about 4 marines in the mineral line of my natural >< )
3. I love how you prevent the terran from pressuring your natural while you're establishing your third by being agressive with the warp-ins and the natural push. Do you find that if you fail to do damage with the first set of drop/warp-ins (or natural push from the drop distraction) that the counter attack destroys you? It seems that if you screw up or get unlucky with his scouting when it comes to your drop that you are then very vulnerable to a counter attack.
I'm glad you like the build. I think it's a strong style and it's a lot more fun than the colossus+double forge styles.
1. Yes, have stalkers in the early game is nice. You can poke their front, get a timing on when (or if) they start making marauders, and sometimes you can kill a stray marine or repairing SCV. But I think it's worth cutting the stalkers in order to templar out in time to deal with early medivac timings. If you want to spend more early resources on units, you have to delay tech or upgrades, and I think this build strikes a reasonable balance. There are other ways to hit a templar mid-game, but if you change things up, you should have a plan for how you'll deal with the 10 minute medivac timing.
2. I'm pretty confident defending early drops. Sometimes I screw up and lose too much to drops, but templar and upgraded chargelots are just really really good against drops. This is, in my opinion, the #1 strength of this style, and the ability to efficiently defend drops with only a small force kept at home is what allows me to force the game to be played out on Terran's half of the map.
3. I'm still practicing this templar style of play. It's definitely a lot different than colossi. It sort of flips the match-up on its head where my army is strong in small groups and when there's a bunch of small battles happening at once, but Terran's army is strong when both parties can focus their efforts on 1 big battle. If Terran defends my multi-pronged attacks and is able to force one big clumped battle, I'm not in a good position.
If I do find myself in a position of military disadvantage, I've discovered that I can often compensate for my army's weakness with a delay-and-counter tactic. What I do is I leave a bunch of templar along T's attack path toward my base and let them gather energy. Then I'll let T force my relatively small zealot/archon army back toward my base, and I'll use the HT along the path to drop positional storms so that Terran has to slow down and deal with each HT individually or take big storm damage. This buys me time to reinforce my main army or to do offensive warp-ins to punish T for being away from his base. But it doesn't always work. Sometimes I throw away too much army, get out-controlled, and lose.
About defending the third in particular, I don't think you need to do damage in order to defend, but I do think that if you don't move out, take map control, play aggressively, and make intelligent trades, you'll lose to a giant bio-ball with a 12 ghosts and 12 medivacs. In my recent games, I usually start my third at about 10 minutes slightly before I take map control because I feel like I can get away with it, but I definitely think sitting in a defensive posture after 12 minutes is a losing proposition with this strategy.
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i just have one question, is there anything like this that i can do PvZ? i'm living this and the other kcdc's pvt thread build...as well as my own PvT build (not as good but still fun as hell 2gate blink opener into chargelot storm w/ht drops and mass expand xD never a dull moment) so PvT for me is rather well off however PvZ i'm kinda stuck on builds to use since everything i do just ends up either an allin or pushing me towards that horrid bl spine infestor Z composition
(PvP makes no sense while im at it but that kinda deserves its own topic lol)
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that game vs impdec was so fun to watch. I can see how the mass zeal + storm could get extremely annoying and frustrating. loved the probe + htemp drops.
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Italy12248 Posts
On April 03 2012 14:14 unit wrote:
i just have one question, is there anything like this that i can do PvZ? i'm living this and the other kcdc's pvt thread build...as well as my own PvT build (not as good but still fun as hell 2gate blink opener into chargelot storm w/ht drops and mass expand xD never a dull moment) so PvT for me is rather well off however PvZ i'm kinda stuck on builds to use since everything i do just ends up either an allin or pushing me towards that horrid bl spine infestor Z composition
(PvP makes no sense while im at it but that kinda deserves its own topic lol)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274243, blue posters are awesome and pvp never makes any sense.
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EPT
