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On February 03 2012 09:10 lolterzard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 09:05 kcdc wrote:
templar+charge is a million times better than colossus tech for defending drops. Do you use templar + cannons for drop defence, or warp in when you see it?
I recommend keeping a couple templar at each base with some zealots between your main and natural and cannons at your third base and each base thereafter. That plus warp-ins should keep you decently safe. Anyway, I think it works better than defending with blink. Stalkers are good for stopping small drops from unloading, but if you miss a drop or if T goes for a big drop, the handful of stalkers that you leave at home don't cut it.
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On February 03 2012 09:05 kcdc wrote:
Merkwerf, if you're finding that chargelot drops don't work well, you could try this strategy. I play against high masters/low GM on NA ladder, and my 'drops' often do a ton of damage. But I don't really drop so much as I attack multiple positions. My goal is to get pylons all over T's base and to warp in zealots wherever T's army isn't.
And while it's true that templar tech takes a lot of gas, so does colossus tech, and so does double forge. IMO, templar+charge is a million times better than colossus tech for defending drops.
maybe I should give chargelot drops or multipronged attacks another chance but I just tend to run into small packs of marine/marauder that stop it easily too much. I'm just not really sold on this aspect of fighting on multiple fronts as you can't really retreat easily and terran still has the upper hand in mobility.
As for templar being better vs drops then colossi: in the abstract that is true but the real question is not templars vs colossi, it's zealot-a few stalker-templar vs zealot-a good bunch of stalkers-colossi. Blink stalkers are still the ultimate anti-drop tech and they just combine better with colossi imo. The problem with relying on ht or chargelots to defend drops is that they lack the mobility to defend against drops AND full frontal attacks at the same time.
With blink stalkers you can just have your army at your most forward base while your blink stalkers sit in the main, ready to blink out to your forward base if needed. It's the most reliable way to stop multi-pronged attacks imo and since blink is still quite cheap it's just my preference still. It does lead to the dreaded wait till 200/200 style but that and very aggresive timing attacks are the only reliable way to play protoss really.
Lack of a good harass unit and being the slowest race kind of forces P to play that way..
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Sweet, looks like I"m not the only one that does a zealot/warp prism based PvT. I've found that a zealot archon style seems to struggle against a lot of PF expansions, so it might be a good idea to get up 4-5 immortals to supplement your army. Not only do they demolish any sort of building sim city and PFs, but speed prisms with two immortals pretty much guarentees the death of a remote expansion or any undefended addons/engi bays/armories. Plus as a happy side effect they demolish mauraders
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I watched a game of you trying this against street and as a former protoss player and a current terran player, that was absolutely crazy to watch. (even if you ended up losing that game <3)
The zealots are a constant mineral sink. If you make zealots from a prism, they will probably die, and unfortunately they will probably do less damage then their cost.
HOWEVER!
This is totally balanced out by how many expansions you can take with the terran player pinned back defending this stuff.
That said, I think in the game I watched you took it too far. There hits a point where you already have 4-5 bases, and you don't gain anything by continuing the ineffectual harass.
I think that this is a surprisingly stable way to play pvt and more importantly, in the worst case scenario of a terran player heavily invested in drop defense, you have a clear clean cut transition to make.
If you need someone else to test it against, add goldenwitch.967. That said, I have a rather unusual tvp style so it might not be ideal testing grounds.
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Lets assume this goes really well and you pin Terran to two bases while you saturate a third of your own. Would you continue the warpins, or exploit your better economy by falling back and beginning a move to Colossus?
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Can I just say, as a Terran, this is a scary guide. Unlike vs Z where Mutas and Lings runbies are a constant threat, we Terrans pretty much never put turrets or leave marines (marauders) around the base for defense vs P, just a turret at the natural entrance in case of DTs but nothing more. Sure it would be less effective if the opponent is prepared but that preparation will reduce his main army's effectiveness in both micro and macro.
Oh and fully upgraded Zealots are like the best unit in the history of video games. A decent sized warpin can wreak total havoc in my base.
Oh wait I just sorta bumped this for more P's to see. T__T (Did any of that sound like whining? If so I'm sorry, I'm just being objective and congratulating the OP on an outstanding guide to a really effective aggressive style that is not very common in SC2 PvT)
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Sigh.. first time trying this and I get 1/1/1'd
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goldenwitch:
Thanks for chiming in. I definitely don't win every time with this strategy, but I'd say I win 70% or so, and I'm still practicing it. I never really used templar vs T until recently, so I have a lot of room to improve in the ghost vs templar micro battle. Also, I think Street is a little better than I am, so it's not surprising that I've dropped games to him. I think I'm 2-2 against him so far when practicing this build.
Also, losing the zealots is indeed a constant mineral sink, but the goal is to trade them somewhat efficiently for SCVs, buildings, and army. Carrying a templar in the warp prism helps a lot with the trade efficiency. I don't know if I remembered to do that in the game you saw. I'll add you.
TuckFexas:
Like I said in the OP, there are a lot of ways to hit this mid-game. I'm sure you can make the 20 expo work, but I'm not a big fan of that build. Even the safe version struggles a bit against 2 marauder pressure, and it's behind my FE economically. The big plus with the 20 expo is the 5 stalker timing and the option to cut defense in favor of extra economy if you know T is gasless CCing. There are tradeoffs, but I prefer the build I outlined in the OP.
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Ever since I saw somewhat similar play in GSTL with ZenexTreme, I knew someone was gonna write a guide about it. Good job.
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Dude marry me, I'll buy you a ring.
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Thank you, kcdc! We are so lucky to have blue posters like yourself, Alej, Monk and Geiko posting quality guides for us all. Neither terran or zerg have blue posters posting guides non stop like you all do.
I've been using your 1 gate fe guide for the past few weeks and I like it alot but I keep getting wrecked by the 5 marine 1 maurader early pressure at my natural or the 10 min poke off a gasless FE with marines, mauraders and two medivacs. I only just figured out last night that to hold it with two gates you need to be constantly producing out of two gates and not missing warpins for a long time otherwise you get overrun. It's good that you confirmed this notion in this guide here.
Question about this guide, when do you get your fourth gas? Do you get it after the possible 10 min poke by Terran or before then? I feel as though you need it beforehand?
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Sensor tower > WP harass and Pylons
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On February 03 2012 12:26 JASONB0URNE wrote:
Thank you, kcdc! We are so lucky to have blue posters like yourself, Alej, Monk and Geiko posting quality guides for us all. Neither terran or zerg have blue posters posting guides non stop like you all do.
I've been using your 1 gate fe guide for the past few weeks and I like it alot but I keep getting wrecked by the 5 marine 1 maurader early pressure at my natural or the 10 min poke off a gasless FE with marines, mauraders and two medivacs. I only just figured out last night that to hold it with two gates you need to be constantly producing out of two gates and not missing warpins for a long time otherwise you get overrun. It's good that you confirmed this notion in this guide here.
Question about this guide, when do you get your fourth gas? Do you get it after the possible 10 min poke by Terran or before then? I feel as though you need it beforehand?
Glad to help. I really like this style of play--it's so much more fun to play, and I'll admit that I posted the guide somewhat in the hopes that I'd have a chance to see better players using this style as well. I like watching streams, but Turtle Toss and all-ins are getting a little old.
About the 4th gas, I don't seem to need it until after my DT shrine. There's a hump where you're gas-starved as you're teching up, but after that, most of your spending is on zealots, gates, nexii and probes, so 3 gas feels like enough unless I want to warp in a bunch of DT's or, later, tech colossus.
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I'm curious, how would you hold a 111 if someone tricks you into thinking they are going for another BO. Im ecpecially worried about the cloak varient.
Great guide btw, there are not enough PvT style guides out there, or not enough variety I should say, it seems the 3 gate robo reigns supreme.
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I just had to mention. The reason I think this build is so awesome is that it exploit the warp in ability offensivly vs terran, which isn't done at all in the current metagame (defend defend defend -> kill him).
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Interesting, I haven't thought of bringing a probe to make a pylon. I wonder why pros haven't done this before? (i haven't seen it at least)
It sounds useful and forces terran to be really careful where and how much of his forces he breaks off from his main to defend harass
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Does the plaid camouflage you from cloaked banshees better, or do you stick to the plain brown?
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Have you got any more replays vs three rax? I always struggle with three rax and i normally get 3 gates. Cool guide! <3
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Canada13431 Posts
This looks super cool will definitely practice it out :D I love warping in zealots against Terran they never know how much to bring its very true.
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EPT
