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I'm too low level to even attempt this, but as a Protoss player who is rarely able to pressure a Terran apart from the early poke or with some kind of all-in or semi all-in or just wait to 200/200, this is great.
On February 03 2012 12:26 JASONB0URNE wrote:
Thank you, kcdc! We are so lucky to have blue posters like yourself, Alej, Monk and Geiko posting quality guides for us all. Neither terran or zerg have blue posters posting guides non stop like you all do.
I just wanted to second this. The level of insight you guys provide for Protoss players is great, as well as the ongoing support in the Protoss help me thread (by yourselves and all the other knowledgeable Brotoss). I sometimes think, given the (in my view) limited tool set Protoss has in current SC2, when and if greater flexibility and more tools are added to the race in the future, we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players. Anyway, thank you.
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On February 03 2012 12:41 kcdc wrote:
About the 4th gas, I don't seem to need it until after my DT shrine. There's a hump where you're gas-starved as you're teching up, but after that, most of your spending is on zealots, gates, nexii and probes, so 3 gas feels like enough unless I want to warp in a bunch of DT's or, later, tech colossus.
Thanks for replying. Interesting that this only needs three gas considering how much gas is being used in the tech up stage like you said. I guess since you're forcing Terran to stay in his base that you won't need to make so many stalkers to defend against drops. Also I guess you're not making 'many' HT just enough to get by with your drops and defending your bases.
I'll have a pen and paper at the ready when I analyse your replays. Thanks again.
On February 03 2012 13:30 AfricanPsycho wrote:
I'm curious, how would you hold a 111 if someone tricks you into thinking they are going for another BO. Im ecpecially worried about the cloak varient.
You will be able to tell on your second/third scouting pokes if he is going for a 1/1/1 build. Things you will see with the probe parked outside his natural is his lack of expansion cc and lack of early push with marines/maurader at ~5:30-6:00. Considering you will be fast expanding, if your Terran counterpart doesn't expand himself anytime soon he will be severely behind economically. This lack of early push and expansion should trigger in your mind that some form of tech build or all-in is coming your way soon and you should prepare for it accordingly. kcdc accounts for this in his guide by suggesting cannon(s) in your mineral lines to defend against possible banshees/hellions if your robo is going to be a bit later than usual.
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Woah! Gonna try this out. Need to improve my multitasking probably, but thats just another plus.
Actually, couldnt you do something simular against a zerg that gone 3 base mutas? Just before mutas gets out in to big numbers? If you mix some more stalkers in with your main army? 
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On February 03 2012 14:52 aZealot wrote:I'm too low level to even attempt this, but as a Protoss player who is rarely able to pressure a Terran apart from the early poke or with some kind of all-in or semi all-in or just wait to 200/200, this is great. Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 12:26 JASONB0URNE wrote:
Thank you, kcdc! We are so lucky to have blue posters like yourself, Alej, Monk and Geiko posting quality guides for us all. Neither terran or zerg have blue posters posting guides non stop like you all do.
I just wanted to second this. The level of insight you guys provide for Protoss players is great, as well as the ongoing support in the Protoss help me thread (by yourselves and all the other knowledgeable Brotoss). I sometimes think, given the (in my view) limited tool set Protoss has in current SC2, when and if greater flexibility and more tools are added to the race in the future, we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players. Anyway, thank you.
Agree full hearted. These days 100% of my standard openings comes from these guys, and a lot of my mid/late game play as well!
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Alicia did something similar build in GSL against select to stop his drops, but didn't utilize this to drop himself though
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Italy12248 Posts
kcdc, i have another question regarding the midgame build.
You power up a lot and cut gateways, teching straight to charge, upgrades, storm and a robo for observers only just off two gates. How safe is it? I am not really expert at all when it comes to templar builds, but isn't that pretty risky and greedy?
Looking at your replays, in the one game when you weren't ahead from the early game (on Shakuras) you were forced to throw down 3 cannons at your natural when he did a medivac poke, so you could stall for storm. I guess that being up against a ghost timing instead might make things even harder, especially since at 9-10 ish minutes you can't have charge yet.
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Hmm, how do you suggest when Terran starts getting vikings to patrol warp prism flight paths? I switched to zealot/archon/temp with some phoenix to kill medivacs and make him pull vikings from patrolling. I won eventually by making him get way too many vikings after hallucinating some extra phoenix (trololol).
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Great guide, how many sentries to you get early game? I usually go 15 nexus, then turn out sentries until WP is done and transition into collosus w/ warp prism harrass and simultaneous warp ins in there main as I poke at them. With this build, do you rely on just the 1 sentry early game then go into zealots?
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AfricanPsycho:
If you don't see an expo or some pressure by ~6 minutes, T is most likely teching, and you need to switch from teching straight to storm and instead get a robo and 4-5 gates. Depending when you make your read that he's going tech, you might need to get cannons in time to defend cloaked banshees. I believe the cloaked banshee timing is approximately 7:30. It takes 1:35 from the time you start your robo until your 1st obs finishes (with 1 chrono). It's not a big deal to run probes around for 10 or so seconds, but if your robo isn't started by 6:10 or 6:20, I'd get a cannon in each mineral line.
Swap:
You could try something similar against mutas, but I don't think it would work as well. Mutas are pretty good against drops, and unlike marines, zealots don't shoot up.
Teoita:
The defense is pretty thin, but in my experience, it's just enough to keep you safe until your tech and production comes fully online. But you can't afford to miss forcefields, and it helps to have a ramp (Shakuras, Entombed, Antiga, TDA, etc) that you can forcefield. T usually has his first medivacs pop at ~10 minutes, and your storm should finish very soon after that, so there's not much of a timing window for T to exploit. In the danP replay, he got really fast medivacs (off of only 2 rax which isn't safe against a lot of P builds), so I freaked out a little and dropped some cannons. It was Shakuras tho, so after watching the replay, I don't think I actually needed them.
ticklishmusic:
You don't really need the warp prism mutli-pronged attacks to work in order to win the game--they're just a nice feature that the build enables. A lot of pros do a similar opening with a single forge and templar tech on 2 bases, and they just play a normal macro style with it. If there's an opening to make something happen with the warp prism, go for it, but you don't have to force it.
Balgrog:
I get 3 sentries. On maps with open naturals (XNC, Arid, Shattered to an extent), you might want to try 4 or 5, but that will slow down your tech. Alternatively, you could just choose to alter the build or choose a totally different strategy if the layout of the natural is too difficult to defend with only 3 sentries. I don't think this is a style that should be forced to work on every map.
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Italy12248 Posts
Regarding sentry count in general, for builds where you want 4+ you can always 1gate fe with 2 gasses, skip the first zealot and making only sentries out of your first gate. I remember huk doing this a lot until MvP completely mauled him with that marine/tank push on Dual Sight, so it doesn't seem safe against anything with gas.
Might be worth a try though.
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Sweet guide, but please try to keep the 'terran is bullshit durrrr' to a minimum.
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gillon,
I was trying to keep a humorous tone, but it is kind of dumb that T can easily deny all early scouting. It's a problem in TvT as well. P and Z are much more scoutable.
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Exactly what i've been looking for, thank you kcdc <3
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On February 04 2012 05:27 kcdc wrote:
gillon,
I was trying to keep a humorous tone, but it is kind of dumb that T can easily deny all early scouting. It's a problem in TvT as well. P and Z are much more scoutable.
I don't know, I don't really think it's an issue. There are broad and safe builds based on the few tells you actually can get that ensure you safety and economical competitiveness so that knowing _exactly_ what they're doing isn't really necessary because you know what you're doing covers all the possibilities. But that's a discussion for a completely different thread.
I apologize for not realizing the joking undertone but it's just been getting kinda old these last, oh, 2 years. ;P
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Hi kcdc,
Thanks for the build! After 5 games with it, here are my questions:
1) Since we're teching so hard, it is normal to have later third than T right? (At least we must wait for charge to hold, right?) How many gates should I support during my 2-base period?
2) At 10-11 min, when the first medivacs pop out and when storms + charge are being researched, how do I defend drop and front attack at the same time? At this point, we only have 2, 3 HT, and a handful of zealot (due to having only 2 gates). Leaving HT and zealot in main base is really risky since I don't know how many medivacs will he load up, and can't cover all the drop spots either (e.g. on large main map).
If there is a rep where you deal with this common medivac timing, just let me know which one. Thanks again!
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On February 04 2012 16:34 Quochobao wrote:
Hi kcdc,
Thanks for the build! After 5 games with it, here are my questions:
1) Since we're teching so hard, it is normal to have later third than T right? (At least we must wait for charge to hold, right?) How many gates should I support during my 2-base period?
2) At 10-11 min, when the first medivacs pop out and when storms + charge are being researched, how do I defend drop and front attack at the same time? At this point, we only have 2, 3 HT, and a handful of zealot (due to having only 2 gates). Leaving HT and zealot in main base is really risky since I don't know how many medivacs will he load up, and can't cover all the drop spots either (e.g. on large main map).
If there is a rep where you deal with this common medivac timing, just let me know which one. Thanks again!
Glad to hear you're trying it out. Any reps to share?
1) The timing to take the third will really depend on the map and the game, but it should usually be after you start your 3rd and 4th gates or your 5th and 6th gates between 10 and 12 minutes. That works out to be a pretty normal time for T to take his third as well. There are Terran builds that will get it earlier, but on a lot of maps, you can do a little light pressure of of 2 gates to encourage him to build his third CC in his base and wait a while before floating it over.
2) If you have 2 HT with a storm each, just put one in your main with a stalker and 2 or 3 zealots and keep the rest of your army in your natural. Your army shouldn't feel that small if you've been constantly producing zealots off of 2 WGs. Most people get 3 or 4 gets and let them idle half of the early game. I have a 3 gate build where I attack with a 30 supply army before 8 minutes with a third behind it and Terrans qq about my "6 gate all-in." So if 3 gates of constant production drains almost all your early game resources and gives you an army big enough to bust multiple bunkers, 2 gates should give you enough army to defend a choke with forcefields. Don't underestimate the power of simply warping in units right as your cooldowns finish.
I've played a bunch of games where I've split my forces to defend that drop timing, but I don't have a good replay handy ATM. I'll post the next one I play. For now, the closest one might be the replay vs OptikMerlo. He goes for the standard medivac timing, but I miss my first forcefields and my extra gates are late (I can't multitask for crap), so my army mostly dies and is too small to split. I narrowly defended because my extra gates finally came online, but if you imagine those initial armies on Shakuras, I'd have a small anti-drop force in my main and zealots and sentries with a storm at my natural.
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great guide and nice try but it cant help this terribly designed matchup. As a terran I find it so boring to have to follow blizzard's bad design and rules to win
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I've been using this build on the ladder and it can really break terrans wow!
Heres one of my games http://drop.sc/105432 ( my dt shrine was late and i should have probably made more gates but im only diamond)
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I see a few weaknesses in the opening. Though the scouting probe rarely tells you anything useful against a tricky player on some maps, not sending it at all makes you very weak to builds that don't get a fast marine. For example, CC first, proxy 2x tech lab marauders, and some strange hellion openings that can come with marauders. True, they collectively represent about 1% of the metagame on ladder, but that obviously doesn't matter in best of X series. Next, marine/scv cheese is even harder to stop, especially when the barracks are proxied, when you don't scout with a probe and only make 1 stalker. Finally, I haven't tried it but 2 gates don't sound like enough to defend against reactor 2 rax, as I die to it all the time with the standard 1 gate FE where you make 2nd and 3rd gates on 30 supply.
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I don't think anyone else mentioned this, but you missed a Pylon in the build order. You go from the implicit 9Pylon to 22Pylon without anything in between. I'm pretty sure it's a 16Pylon, but you probably should specify.
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EPT
