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Hi, i'm GengisKhan, diamond zerg. Today i lost to stalker immortal, and it was very one sided. This is the analisys on the replay.
Game is on Shakuras, i open spanishiwa style and he opens 2 stargate. I don't scout it, but he makes 7 phoenixes, so i throw down some spores (maybe too many), and get a spire to get some corruptor or mutas, because i hate hydras. I then scout 2 robos and a robo bay, so i assume he is going colossi, so i just make more corruptors and then ling, because i thought that once the colossi are gone, they should be fine. my opponent instead starts making immortals, and pushes me at about 150 suppy with 6 immortals and 38 stalkers.
Indeed i read the game wrong, but still, i have mass lings on the ground..., i thought it would be fine. I had 80 lings and 14 banelings when i engaged his army. At the end, i had nothing and he only had 9 less stalkers, so it was 6 immortals and 29 stalkers.
Also, upgrade wise i was ahead: i had 2 2 and he only had 1 0 1.
If lings don't coutner this composition, except for adding infestor i don't know what to do. Even if i do add infestors, it was pretty one sided, i don't think they can help me much, but maybe i'm wrong
What should i have done against that kind of compisition?
Replay :
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=251620
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sad thing is, sling hydra would be a great composition that would have demolished the opponent's army, while keeping hydras alive, supply the army with more lings and it would be your win for sure. If you didnt want to make hydras due to colossus, turtle up and make mutas, dont engage his army until u absolutely have to and hes attacking u full frontal. When i mentioned turtle up, i meant make mutas and spend all of your gas while spending the rest of your minerals on spines while spreading creep, building a wall of spines. Since your army will be faster than his, you can make more expos while harrasing his mineral line. If his mineral lines are covered with cannons, kill the pylons and other buildings necessary for making units.
BTW, u should definitely surround the opponent with lings
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Usually what I do when the double star into pheonix play goes is that I know there wont be a large ground army that could beat mine so I just take my 4th and 5th(i have my third before it comes) and just get a sick eco with some spores at each base. This will hold it off while taking minimal loses.
Though the reason you lost this game is not through your macro which is good, but your decision to go air. If i see double star and im going muta i'll cancel and go roach/ling/festor bc I know phoenixs will stop mutas with stalkers. Though if you went air as a reaction to pheonixs, just remember that they cant do a lot except pick up units so it wont really effect you in the fight except with picking up infestors.
So the 20 corrupters lost you the game. You dont need them unless your going hive and even then 20 is overkill. Also with just lings for most of the game you should have gone bling faster and get speed. Because with your gas banking you need to just overkill with blings, in this situation its never a waste in my eyes. You made 15bligns with cant do a thing if they blink thats why the infestor would have been good in this situation instead of mass corrupters. If you made around 30-40 blings which you could have and massed lings you would have win the fight with a couple of infestors to root them in place.
So you lost bc: 20 Corrupters to fight 7 phoenix, to slow on bling speed and not enough blings, needed infestor to counter blink.
Hope this helps
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Well, first of all, your opening was not the best. When a Protoss forge fast expands, you generally want to take a quick third (4-5 minutes in) before getting any gas, and just drone up as hard as you can for a while. Even if you're not going to take a quick third, delay your gases. You got all 4 geysers around 25 drones -- you should wait until at least 40. Because of this, you're ridiculously gas heavy, and don't have nearly as many drones as you should. If your opponent hadn't been bad at continuously making probes, he would actually overtaken you in the worker count easily.
You do indeed get way too many spores -- if he's going pure phoenix, you only need 1-2 per base. Also, I personally feel that infestors are a better option that corruptors against 2 stargate phoenix, since corruptors often become useless later. However (partly due to some miscontrol by him), you held it with minimal damage.
You make a ridiculous number of corruptors for not having seen any colossi. You generally want 3-4 corruptors per collosus -- you had 20 by the end, never having seen a single collosus. While it's true that it looked like he was going heavy colossi (because he was, until he saw your corruptors and switched to immortals), you want to confirm that before you devote that much to corruptors. Try to see what units he has at his front with something (poking with corruptors, an overseer, a changeling, something). Also, you could have seen that he cancelled thermal lance. Instead, you build almost nothing but corruptors for minutes leading up to the attack, and consequently get rolled. Those 20 corruptors could have been another 80 lings (more, if you'd balanced your resources better and weren't floating 1000 gas even with buildings corruptors). Even if he had built colossi, you wouldn't have had enough of an actually army to kill his stalkers.
Finally, pure ling isn't all that good in the mid to late game, even against units (like stalkers and immortals) that they theoretically counter. The lings will soak up a ton of damage, but you want something else (roaches, hydras, infestors, mutalisks) to help you deal the damage, since even with a perfect surround, a lot of your lings won't be able to attack. The banelings helped a little, but because you didn't have nearly as good of an economy as you could have, and because you devoted almost all of what resources you did have to corruptors, you just didn't have enough units.
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On January 25 2012 04:04 Asolmanx wrote:
my opponent instead starts making immortals, and pushes me at about 150 suppy with 6 immortals and 38 stalkers.
Indeed i read the game wrong, but still, i have mass lings on the ground..., i thought it would be fine. I had 80 lings and 14 banelings when i engaged his army. At the end, i had nothing and he only had 9 less stalkers, so it was 6 immortals and 29 stalkers.
80 lings = 40 supply, 14 banelings = 7 supply, you have a total of 47 supply.
38 stalkers = 76 supply, 6 immortals = 24 supply, he has a total of 100 supply.
Basically, unit compositions don't matter all that much when the army supply is so one-sided. Wasting so much supply on corruptors means you didn't really have "mass ling". If you had had close to his supply in lings, then things may have gone a bit differently.
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On January 25 2012 04:31 FluXen wrote:
Usually what I do when the double star into pheonix play goes is that I know there wont be a large ground army that could beat mine so I just take my 4th and 5th(i have my third before it comes) and just get a sick eco with some spores at each base. This will hold it off while taking minimal loses.
Though the reason you lost this game is not through your macro which is good, but your decision to go air. If i see double star and im going muta i'll cancel and go roach/ling/festor bc I know phoenixs will stop mutas with stalkers. Though if you went air as a reaction to pheonixs, just remember that they cant do a lot except pick up units so it wont really effect you in the fight except with picking up infestors.
So the 20 corrupters lost you the game. You dont need them unless your going hive and even then 20 is overkill. Also with just lings for most of the game you should have gone bling faster and get speed. Because with your gas banking you need to just overkill with blings, in this situation its never a waste in my eyes. You made 15bligns with cant do a thing if they blink thats why the infestor would have been good in this situation instead of mass corrupters. If you made around 30-40 blings which you could have and massed lings you would have win the fight with a couple of infestors to root them in place.
So you lost bc: 20 Corrupters to fight 7 phoenix, to slow on bling speed and not enough blings, needed infestor to counter blink.
Hope this helps
Thank you for the very fast answer. I think that you are right, i made the spire as a reaction to stargate play, and then when i say double robo and a bay i assumed colossi, so i made more corrupyors because i figured taht if i want to win with monoling on the ground, i need to kill the colossi ASAP. Probabily it wasn't the best decision.
About the banelings, you are probably right, i love bane drop so i'll try that next time.
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On January 25 2012 04:36 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 04:04 Asolmanx wrote:
my opponent instead starts making immortals, and pushes me at about 150 suppy with 6 immortals and 38 stalkers.
Indeed i read the game wrong, but still, i have mass lings on the ground..., i thought it would be fine. I had 80 lings and 14 banelings when i engaged his army. At the end, i had nothing and he only had 9 less stalkers, so it was 6 immortals and 29 stalkers.
80 lings = 40 supply, 14 banelings = 7 supply, you have a total of 47 supply. 38 stalkers = 76 supply, 6 immortals = 24 supply, he has a total of 100 supply. Basically, unit compositions don't matter all that much when the army supply is so one-sided. Wasting so much supply on corruptors means you didn't really have "mass ling". If you had had close to his supply in lings, then things may have gone a bit differently.
Pretty much this. Ideally if you are going pure lings, you should aim to have atleast 4 lings (3 if he doesnt have blink) to every stalker that he has. So that would be a minimum of 150+ lings. However the problem with going so ling heavy is that you end up not having enough surface area, unless you had the foresight to move half your army beforehand to flank him from all sides. Also I think any mid/late game zerg army is incomplete without infestors to fungal the enemy army, disabling blink and also doing large amounts of damage vs armored units, allowing your lings to tear through the army much faster.
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Lings died to the stalker ball for the same reason they die to marine balls. The bigger the ball the less effective they are . I didt have time to watch the replay, depending on the time he attacked, you should have scouted the immortals or at least some of them the problem with pure ling is that only the % of lings that can hit the stalkers are the ones attacking. So effectively, 50% of all your forces at actually doing something where as all if his stalkers are attacking. So before you go muta, scout and build roach/ling to defend. Lots of lings + around 16-20 roaches most likely can hold that off as long as he doesnt have super gosu micro 
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EPT
