EPT[G] Only Losing to What You Know is Coming (PvT) - Page 2
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Gasless marine all-in might also be worth mentioning as it's one of the trickier all-ins to spot, especially if they build rax #2 and #3 further away. Also I think a few tricks/tips might be worth mentioning: - if you know your scout timings you can often derive if they have gas or not from the timing of the second depot. For example I 12 scout on metalopolis but can't get in on the second base I scout, I'm fairly sure they did 2nd depot before orbital then thus a gas build is very unlikely, in fact you can almost straight put them on gasless expand. - if you poke later, for example with a probe, you often won't get up their ramp and see much, still you can often tell something from their marine count. 2 rax goes marine, reactor thus will go 1 to 3 to 5 marines. 1-1-1 will usually go marine, marine, reactor thus goes from 1 to 2 to 4 to 6 marines. If you see only 1 rine for a while you can usually deduce fast reactor or fast tech lab => no factory. - if you're build allows it it's nice to plant a pylon at the spot the add-on would go, if they are set on a build they will usually lift and place their addon in view of the building pylon. For a cost of only 25 mins you get to see the add-on more reliably and delay it about 6 seconds. It's even better if the lift-off means your probe can get out of a wall-in. | ||
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-VoidRay-
57 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:57 Geiko wrote: In the fast techlab case, the Zealot/stalker poke can be very dangerous if terran is doing a reaper opening. Would be nice if your guide covered this. I also disagree with recommending 3 gate or 2 gate robo against a 1 rax techlab FE. What you refer to as 1-1-1 should be "any tech build" Your answers to 1 rax gasless fe are also quite bad. This opening is pretty much designed to defend 4 gating, if you chose to all-in you'll have a much higher chance of victory with -26 probe 2 gas 5 gate zealot/sentry all-in -1 gate FE into 20 probe 4 gate. I also beleive that 7 gating is much more standard all-in then 6 gating. Assuming you make a 2nd stalker and cboost it regardless of what you scout (I fe off 1 gas) it'll pop out 5-10 seconds after the reaper arrives not including the option to reactively cboost it a 2nd time. This is a timing I have observed and also just now tested. Also unless you some how botched your build and your poke arrives 10-20 seconds late, it's a really really big map, or he does some ultra ultra aggressive concussive like 11 rax 12 gas, his concussive won't finish in time for the poke. You don't even need to stay and try to do any damage. The fact you've seen a marauder eliminates a long list of builds you'd have otherwise never scouted. The zealot/stalker poke is an amazing scouting tool in PvT. It should be used way, way more often. | ||
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Geiko
France2025 Posts
On January 05 2012 16:17 Tyrant0 wrote: Assuming you make a 2nd stalker and cboost it regardless of what you scout (I fe off 1 gas) it'll pop out 5-10 seconds after the reaper arrives not including the option to reactively cboost it a 2nd time. This is a timing I have observed and also just now tested. Also unless you some how botched your build and your poke arrives 10-20 seconds late, it's a really really big map, or he does some ultra ultra aggressive concussive like 11 rax 12 depot, his concussive won't finish in time for the poke. You don't even need to stay and try to do any damage. The fact you've seen a marauder eliminates a long list of builds you'd have otherwise never scouted. The zealot/stalker poke is an amazing scouting tool in PvT. It should be used way, way more often. Like I said, the zealot/stalker poke should only be done in that case if you are opening z st st. I think the standard timing for it is ~5:00 at the ramp at which point concussive should be done on any concussive first build, which is why I recommend walking "under" the cliff rather then up the ramp to scout for units. To OP, maybe you could also add that standard first marine timing is ~3:04 and anything before or after should get you worried. Clicking on gas in case of delayed barracks will help you differentiate between gas first builds and proxy barracks. Your guide doesn't discuss much on the possibility of pylon scouting ( to scout for add ons, 2nd marine etc... ) which some pros do ( I think Sase is famous for this ), maybe add a paragraph on that ? | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On January 05 2012 11:37 FabledIntegral wrote: Haha, there's a VoidRayRH as well as a VoidRH? Confusing... i believe voidRH's original name was VoidRayRH, but thought it was cheesy, so... :D | ||
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-VoidRay-
57 Posts
 I have been in RH For a year and a half, I win ^^@tyrant0 - I agree 100% with the idea that the zealot stalker is an under used scout! I also agree that just the fact that you see the marauder is essentially all the info you were going for anyway so the prodding did exactly what you wanted. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Terrans should start to make 1/1/1s with one single Marauder at the beginning - it is only 25 gas and it confuses the hell out of every toss that has read any guide on TL. | ||
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-VoidRay-
57 Posts
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mage36
415 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13410 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:57 Geiko wrote: In the fast techlab case, the Zealot/stalker poke can be very dangerous if terran is doing a reaper opening. Would be nice if your guide covered this. I also disagree with recommending 3 gate or 2 gate robo against a 1 rax techlab FE. What you refer to as 1-1-1 should be "any tech build" Your answers to 1 rax gasless fe are also quite bad. This opening is pretty much designed to defend 4 gating, if you chose to all-in you'll have a much higher chance of victory with -26 probe 2 gas 5 gate zealot/sentry all-in -1 gate FE into 20 probe 4 gate. I also beleive that 7 gating is much more standard all-in then 6 gating. Especially with the ramp vision change, the 4 gate or even a 6 gate is a pretty bad decision. | ||
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-VoidRay-
57 Posts
My suggestion to be "aggressive" was merely that, a suggestion. I personally choose to play a more macro oriented style but there are ways to be very aggressive vs a no gas fast expand. Maybe my ways are not the best but they are ways. As I don't do them often they may have become obsolete. Thanks for the input though. | ||
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luvy
Germany27 Posts
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WolfBro
United States59 Posts
Thank you so much. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 05 2012 18:25 Geiko wrote: Like I said, the zealot/stalker poke should only be done in that case if you are opening z st st. I think the standard timing for it is ~5:00 at the ramp at which point concussive should be done on any concussive first build, which is why I recommend walking "under" the cliff rather then up the ramp to scout for units. I would agree with that. I actually prefer Z st st openings in PvT and usually an expansion right after unless I feel threatened. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
This is partially the reason that I simply don't go zealot on the larger maps. Can't really poke with it and only delays the expansion. By the time pressure comes on larger maps you can have warpgate finished anyway and simply warp in zealots then. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On January 05 2012 22:28 opisska wrote: Another guide that takes "seeing a Marauder" as a granted tell of something. Terrans should start to make 1/1/1s with one single Marauder at the beginning - it is only 25 gas and it confuses the hell out of every toss that has read any guide on TL. Well, in their defense, that marauder is 50 more minerals, 25 gas away from when your factory first drops and takes longer to complete than marines. You shouldn't discount how making a marauder early will mess with timings. | ||
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-VoidRay-
57 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 05 2012 12:29 Markwerf wrote: - if you're build allows it it's nice to plant a pylon at the spot the add-on would go, if they are set on a build they will usually lift and place their addon in view of the building pylon. For a cost of only 25 mins you get to see the add-on more reliably and delay it about 6 seconds. It's even better if the lift-off means your probe can get out of a wall-in. I've had players do that to me, and it is a bit annoying. 25 minerals is fairly insubstantial and it can throw your opponent off their timings slightly. Just make sure you've done it a few times and planned for a slight deviation in YOUR build, otherwise you're not reaping any benefit. | ||
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JOJOsc2news
3000 Posts
As to the information presented. There wasn't really anything new for me but it was nice to be reassured of my scouting assumptions. I would like to add that, especially in lower leagues, build orders aren't always performed in the expected way and in that case an assumption can actually be really dangerous as you are suddenly faced with some wonky all in. Which proves again that scouting is key in the PvT matchup as Terran really is the race that relies on timings that hit you hard. | ||
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