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On January 07 2012 00:27 terranmoccasin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I was really excited to see this guide, only to find out that I know far more about scouting in PvT, that it is terribly uninformative, and states things that aren't true.
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I general, I think you need to restructure it.
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Unfortunately, your post gets lost after organizing the information.
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Instead, you should state something like
Some things stated aren't true 100% of the time, but it's a pretty good guide for someone who is clueless about the matchup. Also, if you know so much more about scouting in PvT and clearly have some great ideas on how to write a better guide, I think everyone could benefit more if you simply created your own guide. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
Especially since there are cases when you don't always want or need to follow up scout. For instance if you scout a Terran on TD Altar going for a 2 rax with your Probe scout, and the Terran didn't even bother building a Marine but instead went straight for a Tech Lab, if you send your first Stalker across the map you very well might meet up with a Marauder with Concussive Shells and simply die.
I usually open Zealot Stalker Stalker (this may not be the best opening anymore, but it still works for me). 1. First zealot checks my base and then around the outskirts of my base for his SCV (which is always going to be hanging out to check for a nexus timing). After, it heads straight toward the Terran base. 2. 1st stalker is rallied to the zealot. They should arrive around the same time due to the Stalkers faster move speed. While the stalker is en route, ideally I still have my Primary scouting probe alive. I sack it to see what’s going on. If I see a marauder I retreat my 1z/1s. If not, pressure/scout. 3. 2nd stalker is left in my base by the mineral line to defend possible reaper.
It may not be the "best" opening, but it's solid. I do it almost every PvT, because you can put down 2 more gates if you feel you need to, you can defend any super-early concussive/marine/scv push with z/st/st, and you can poke the front if he's not going techlab barracks. And then, of course, if he's going gasless expand or something similar you can put down your expansion off 1 gate 1gas.
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Question: lets say I scout terran on Tal'darim going 2 rax. And my supply is 24. Is it worth adding 1 more gas to go for 3 gate 2 gas expo, or is it better to go 3 gate 1 gas expo because 2nd gas timing will be late?
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Great post! One of this things holding me back was my ability to identify possibilities from scouting. I definitely feel like this is going to help my PvT.
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@ Corsica - You can hold a 2 rax with 1 or 2 gas. The only difference is that if you take your second gas your expo timing will be a little bit later and you will be more sentry zealot heavy which is fine. As far as putting down a "late" second gas, a lot of pros now a days are getting 2 gases early on and only using 1 until they need to. This is sort of a "safer" style. So, getting your second gas on 24 or whatever isn't really a big deal at all it just depends what your style is.
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i really don't understand some of the timings here, how did you get a probe back into his base at 4:15?
i think that's effeectively impossible and is equivalent to banking on your opponent forgetting stimpack or something
also, i don't get Geiko's timing when he said the first marine pops at 3:04? isn't it 3:08-3:10~depending on stack?
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May be worth noting. If your build warrants and a terran is not walling and taking one of his gasses, you can always steal his second gas. If the terran goes to kill it you have a much better chance of getting a probe in for a second scout. If they don't kill it, at least you can figure the terran is going for a one gas build so you can skip the robo entirely. I like to cycle this build in every now and again, just a suggestion^^.
Great guide by the way!
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@TheRiotXL yeah, I have been doing that more and more now. It is 100% worth noting!
@YourTeam If they are going 2 rax I would say 50% of the time you can get your probe up there ramp at 4:15 because of there lack of units. (Stim will never be done by then...ever haha) But even if the probe dies you get great scouting information ie: there unit composition and if you make it far enough up, there buildings.
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United States413 Posts
awesome guide, really useful information for lower league protoss such as myself
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Very nice guide on scouting, very knowledgeable, and it will greatly help out people who don't know how to scout well. I think the biggest thing to emphasize is that you need to poke up the ramp alot, whether it is with your probe or stalker, you need to get a marine count, see the units he has, if there is a tech lab, reactor, is it researching, can you see other buildings? Also since your shields can recharge, your initial stalker is a very powerful weapon, you can go up and down that ramp all day, force him to throw down a bunker, make him get out extra marines and what not. You need to always be poking at your opponent, and when you poke, you gain valuable information!
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United States413 Posts
After reading this guide I hopped on sc2 and played about 5 1v1s, three were against Terran and this information definitely made me more comfortable with the match up. Previously I hated PvT solely because of the seemingly random marine/marauder pressures but now I have a decent understanding of what to expect in terms of early aggression.
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Canada13389 Posts
On January 08 2012 00:49 Corsica wrote:
Question: lets say I scout terran on Tal'darim going 2 rax. And my supply is 24. Is it worth adding 1 more gas to go for 3 gate 2 gas expo, or is it better to go 3 gate 1 gas expo because 2nd gas timing will be late?
On Tal'Darim, since the rush distances are pretty long, if you see a 2 rax I suggest using the MC 1 gate FE.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136
You'll want the zealot and 3 stalkers outlined in the 2 rax scouting part of the guide so follow that part of the guide there.
With good control you will come out economically ahead and you might even be able to counter push if you kill a lot of his stuff and lose little yourself. Takes some practice and I'm still working on it but its very good though micro based. Just be sure to focus marauders first with the stalkers and then you can kill the marines since they can't run away from stalkers well at all.
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@NEXUS6 - Hey I'm glad I helped you out  For more content on scouting and BO's you can go watch some VODs i'v posted on www.twitch.tv/tangsc I have done a lot of stream lessons regarding scouting and other PvT and PvZ tactics.
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Awesome guide Well written, concise and informative, and the screenshots really helped.
Thanks!
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On January 08 2012 00:39 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 00:27 terranmoccasin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I was really excited to see this guide, only to find out that I know far more about scouting in PvT, that it is terribly uninformative, and states things that aren't true.
...
I general, I think you need to restructure it.
...
Unfortunately, your post gets lost after organizing the information.
...
Instead, you should state something like
Some things stated aren't true 100% of the time, but it's a pretty good guide for someone who is clueless about the matchup. Also, if you know so much more about scouting in PvT and clearly have some great ideas on how to write a better guide, I think everyone could benefit more if you simply created your own guide. On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
Especially since there are cases when you don't always want or need to follow up scout. For instance if you scout a Terran on TD Altar going for a 2 rax with your Probe scout, and the Terran didn't even bother building a Marine but instead went straight for a Tech Lab, if you send your first Stalker across the map you very well might meet up with a Marauder with Concussive Shells and simply die.
I usually open Zealot Stalker Stalker (this may not be the best opening anymore, but it still works for me). 1. First zealot checks my base and then around the outskirts of my base for his SCV (which is always going to be hanging out to check for a nexus timing). After, it heads straight toward the Terran base. 2. 1st stalker is rallied to the zealot. They should arrive around the same time due to the Stalkers faster move speed. While the stalker is en route, ideally I still have my Primary scouting probe alive. I sack it to see what’s going on. If I see a marauder I retreat my 1z/1s. If not, pressure/scout. 3. 2nd stalker is left in my base by the mineral line to defend possible reaper. It may not be the "best" opening, but it's solid. I do it almost every PvT, because you can put down 2 more gates if you feel you need to, you can defend any super-early concussive/marine/scv push with z/st/st, and you can poke the front if he's not going techlab barracks. And then, of course, if he's going gasless expand or something similar you can put down your expansion off 1 gate 1gas.
Yes you can however mcs 1gate fe (which is what you describe) isnt optimal against gasless fe youre simply behind in econ.. i currently struggle between kcds 1gate fe and mcs.. guess when i wanna be extra safe or i see something that doesnt feel right with scouting probe will do mcs one.. however it shouldnt matter because your style should be aimed towards some sort harras via warprism to get on even footing
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EPIC guide would be really nice if you could make one for PvZ and eventually even PvP too.
But there's one thing you missed: the buildings blocking in PvT. Mostly blocking the barracks addon with a pylon.
Would be really nice if you could include some tips about that.
Edit:
As I usually use Nexus 1st it would be nice to include some special FE(maybe with 1 gate FE too) tips and write down how to hold the pressure if soucet off.
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On January 09 2012 01:19 k3m4 wrote:
EPIC guide would be really nice if you could make one for PvZ and eventually even PvP too.
But there's one thing you missed: the buildings blocking in PvT. Mostly blocking the barracks addon with a pylon.
Would be really nice if you could include some tips about that.
Edit:
As I usually use Nexus 1st it would be nice to include some special FE(maybe with 1 gate FE too) tips and write down how to hold the pressure if soucet off.
There was a little bit of discussion on pylon blocking the add-ons in the comments. I like 1gate FE more because if you do scout 2rax opening you can delay your nexus, add 2 gates, get warp in time for his push, and counter-pressure right after.
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@TangSC - I totally agree. I go into almost every game thinking I am going to either 1 gate expand with the assumption I might have to 3 gate expand or that I am going to 1 gate robo to be safe. As far as pylon blocking, I usually only pylon block if I get walled into their base. I will do it then because my probe isn't escaping and I usually complement that with a gas steal too.
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Really helpful guide, im mid-high diamond and all i needed now in pvt was this scouting help. THANKS
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sick guide bro. Really impressed with it. clear thought was put into it, and to me that is worthy of all the compliments you have been receiving. The photos were a nice addition. My pvt has gotten so much better. Keep up the good work bro!
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Thanks, I'm glad so many of you have enjoyed it so far. Comments are still welcome whether its criticism or complements.
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EPT
