[G] Only Losing to What You Know is Coming (PvT) - Page 6

-VoidRay-

57 Posts

January 25 2012 05:19 GMT

#101

@HardMacro to add on to what Jaeger said, what I usually do is when I scout someone last or if its a long rush distance, I will actually just send my zealot back home and be very vigilant with my stalker. As you said, one shot with a marauder could be death but if you are keeping a close watch you can either escape or avoid those pesky beings completely. The reason I keep my zealot at home is just because if I do end up losing the stalker, like you mentioned, I don't want to lose both because then i'm in real trouble when his attack comes!

Also what Jaeger said about running your probe back up the ramp right before the scout is super smart and effective. Whenever you keep your probe alive you really should do that first. (Sometimes I'll make a pylon close by before I sacrifice the probe for counter attacks)

Thanks for the comments again guys

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 27 2012 20:44 GMT

#102

On January 09 2012 01:19 k3m4 wrote:
EPIC guide would be really nice if you could make one for PvZ

Voidray may have mentioned the possibility of a new PvZ guide soon ^^

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

January 28 2012 00:33 GMT

#103

I think this is a good guide for newer players, but at high level play, Terrans can deny Protoss meaningful scouting until it's too late to respond. On most maps, Terran can wall his front with an early second depot to stop the probe from getting in, and then push the probe back with the first marine. Then on maps with a closed natural, Terran can simply put a bunker at the natural's choke to prevent Protoss from even seeing whether the Terran has actually expanded. Protoss can sometimes sacrifice a zealot to run by the bunker to see if there's a command center, but that's a pretty expensive scout and you still don't know what Terran is doing--you simply know whether or not they have a command center on the low ground at that time.

I think Protoss's best option is to just accept that they'll be playing mostly blind until Terran shows his hand, and to either roll the dice with a risky build or pick an opening that's decent against most everything until the observer arrives. I've basically cut my probe scouting in PvT. Instead of the standard 13 scout, I now scout at 22 supply on 4 player maps to find the Terran's position, and on 2 player maps, I just move a probe to a tower at 27 supply after my nexus to see if Terran is attacking. If T hasn't moved out by 6 minutes, I'll check his natural, but if I see a bunker, I know that it doesn't necessarily mean that Terran has expanded.

At high level play, I think the value of the scouting information Protoss can get against Terran is pretty overrated. It'd be nice if Protoss could reliably get useful information, but as the game is, I think it's better to just keep your probes at home mining.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

January 28 2012 01:39 GMT

#104

oh i like this guide, and at high level i think toss can still scout enough, to know whats coming, simply of what the terran has to show to hold of the scouts, atleast so far i could always guess it, unless they wanted to hide it so badly, that it got delayed so heavily that it wasn't a problem anymore.

About hallucination, i think its nice if the terran walled in with 2 depots and you want to break down the wall with an immortal, without having to wait for the obs or prism, to get the vision. You will get the 2 depots for sure if you get to their ramp. (a hallucinated prism is a really good idea to divert attention, from the ramp so its even easier)
Also for a heavy upgrade gateway only play i think its pretty handy as a scout, as it saves a bit of gas and makes the attack hit a bit faster

Double forge works really nice especially if the terran stays on 1 ebay. But if the terran scouts it and keeps the pace they will be a bit stronger for some time. I had 2 games where i went tripple forge so far and in both my opponents took more losses then me in an attack, so i simply used it as a way to get more ahead. Otherwise tripple forge is imo to expensive, especially since chronoboosting 2 forges is tripple forge.

What i like to use as a scout is a prism instead of the observer (unless i expect cloaked banshees heh). Because if the terran tries to poke early you can punish them with your scout.

ODKStevez

Ireland1225 Posts

January 28 2012 01:54 GMT

#105

Thank you, this is a great help ^^

-VoidRay-

57 Posts

January 31 2012 04:49 GMT

#106

@TangSC yeah, I will be putting out a PvZ guide as soon as my new computer is built. I will be doing a stream guide for the PvZ "thing" I'm doing! Stay tuned!!

citi.zen

2509 Posts

January 31 2012 05:51 GMT

#107

How can you ever get the scouting probe back in their base a 2nd time? If you 9 scout you can usually get to see their gas, but that does very little other than rule out a gassless FE. You still have no clue if they are going to all-in you or go for a macro game until you have your observer... at which point it's too late either way, unless you got exceptionally lucky.

There are just so many timings for the T to choose from early and mid game: 2 rax, 3 rax, 2 medivacs, 1/1, 2/2, 1/1/1, banshee, even the occasional thor-marine all in. As the P you just wait in your bases and pray, since you need to choose your path for each of these very differently and do so before you scout them. Then in the mid-game you can't leave your base or you'll get dropped in 2 places and be forced to either turn around and play from behind or just go all in right there.

I love the other two MUs - they feel "reactive" like a real strategy game where there are openings and responses: in PvP I know I can see the gate timing, the saved chrono, 2nd gas timing, etc.; in PvZ the pool timing, gas timing/how much is mined, whether or not they take a fast 3rd, etc. Sadly, playing vs T just feels very differently now.

edit: sorry... kcdc said the same thing already.

-VoidRay-

57 Posts

January 31 2012 15:07 GMT

#108

I feel as if some of this is true citi.zen but that most of it is not. PvT is a unique match up yes but, unlike PvZ or PvP I scout based on units AND Buildings! Units can be just as telling and sacking a probe to see a marauder is a win in my book. There are so many ways to scout in PvT and "by time your observer is out, its too late" is just not true. First of all, if you feel as if you can't get a scout off fast enough, there is a 1 gate robo into 2 gate expand. This build is SUPER safe and gets out an obs out super quickly. That could be a good build for you to try. As far as moving out, there are less but still many timings to push out before the T even has enough medivacs to drop you like crazy. Also, on top of all that, P can drop too!! I always use a WP in PvT in the early game and as soon as they move out, I drop 2 sentries and 2 zealots into there mineral line and FF it shut. Even if this does minimal damage, its a mind game. It makes the T be VERY careful every time he moves out because he knows he could be getting dropped. On top of ALLLl of that, we have proxi pylons for a reason. I line the entire outline of a map with pylons and so I usually see most drops coming, or if I don't, they simply unload and kill the pylon which alerts me anyway. Yes, PvT is a unique MU and one that requires a little bit of guessing but if I get in and see 1 gas, I always steal. (its a new thing i'm doing) Reasons? 1. It denies or delays 1/1/1, 2. it almost forces them into a 2 rax or some sort of pressure that you force upon them. 3. if they are not smart, you can sometimes slip a unit up after the first or 2nd marine and scout their entire base. So basically, I try to create as many options for myself to scout whether its buildings, quick obs, or units.

Starting either today or tomorrow I will be streaming my ladder everyday and I go over every game. Feel free to stop by and ask questions. If you don't know the link PM me ^^

Hope that helped.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 04 2012 00:28 GMT

#109

On February 01 2012 00:07 VoidRayRH wrote:
On top of ALLLl of that, we have proxi pylons for a reason. I line the entire outline of a map with pylons and so I usually see most drops coming, or if I don't, they simply unload and kill the pylon which alerts me anyway.

That's so smart, a lot of players overlook the importance of building pylons everywhere and they'll build like 5 pylons right beside each other in the main (I'm guilty of this too sometimes lol). It's so much better to have pylons all over the place - anywhere you might see a drop or some banshees coming in. The ability to warp in units anywhere is a strong offensive and defensive tool, and even if you're building pylons inside your base try to build on the outskirts (ledges) so you can 1) see drops coming 2) warp units down the ledge.

-VoidRay-

57 Posts

February 06 2012 19:11 GMT

#110

@TangSC Yeah, I feel that my mini map awareness isn't even THAT superb but some terran's find it necessary to unload, kill the pylon that has "Spotted them" and the reload and wait for a better time to drop as they have obviously by now been REALLY spotted. So again, even if I miss the medivac do to bad mini map awareness sometimes they reveal themselves which is just a double bonus to the pylon's surrounding the map.

How2getMaster

Germany124 Posts

April 04 2012 13:55 GMT

#111

Well done! Was a pleasure reading.

Greetings.

-VoidRay-

57 Posts

April 06 2012 20:55 GMT

#112

@How2getMaster - I'm glad it helped. I'm currently working on a PvZ guide atm,

Nyast

Belgium554 Posts

April 06 2012 21:48 GMT

#113

On February 07 2012 04:11 -VoidRay- wrote:
@TangSC Yeah, I feel that my mini map awareness isn't even THAT superb but some terran's find it necessary to unload, kill the pylon that has "Spotted them" and the reload and wait for a better time to drop as they have obviously by now been REALLY spotted. So again, even if I miss the medivac do to bad mini map awareness sometimes they reveal themselves which is just a double bonus to the pylon's surrounding the map.

How "soon" do you start to spread pylons over the map ?

I regularly do it in the mid/late game ( after 10' ), but I'm wondering if it's worth the risk doing it in the early/mid game too.

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