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I was really excited to see this guide, only to find out that I know far more about scouting in PvT, that it is uninformative, and states some things that aren't true. Take the "Pro Tip" regarding chronoing Warpgate as much as possible vs a Tech Lab opening. You can hold just fine using on only chrono one Warpgate depending on your build. You don't need it that fast if you aren't fast expanding since you can FF your ramp for 15 seconds easily buying you time for WG to finish, nor do you need to do that if you spend the chrono on units early instead.
I general, I think you need to restructure it. You begin by stating that there is three stages to scouting which is cool and a good way to organize the information (and what got me excited when I first read this post), and I think the majority of your discussion should be based around what those scouts can and can't see.
Unfortunately, your post gets lost after organizing the information. For instance, you should avoid stating things like this "In each circumstance whether a Terran has 0,1 or 2 gases the response is inherently different" and then follow by making no direct statements about why the response is inherently different, or what the response should be. You do this again with the statement "So you scout with your gosu probe and you either get denied entry or you get walled in. These two examples are actually extremely different but they do share one thing, they both suck" then again simply not following up why they are different or what the response should be.
Instead, you should state something like "In each circumstance whether a Terran has 0, 1 or 2 gases the response is inherently different. If you scout no gasses, we can infer that the Terran is going for Marine/SCV all-in, or a Gasless expand, unless they are just delaying their gas in order to trick you, and thus the followup response is X." And then you could go into the further scout timings that would allow you to figure out which of the three above builds the Terran is doing. Then you could go on about what to do if your initial Probe scout see 1 and 2 gas and finish off with how to respond if your initial scout gets denied, sort of like in a flow chart fashion.
The style I outlined is certainly more informative than randomly picking some popular Terran builds as you did. Especially since there are cases when you don't always want or need to follow up scout. For instance if you scout a Terran on TD Altar going for a 2 rax with your Probe scout, and the Terran didn't even bother building a Marine but instead went straight for a Tech Lab, if you send your first Stalker across the map you very well might meet up with a Marauder with Concussive Shells and simply die. Alternatively, you Stalker could be getting into their base only find out that they are still going 2 rax and then a few seconds later a Reaper leaps into your base at home and is picking off Probes, and you're wishing that Stalker was home. This is stuff you went to mention, you don't always want to blindly send your Stalker across the map (generally it is fine), there isn't always much more the Stalker can see than what the Probe did and the risk could be very high. Thus sometimes you'll want to keep it home, begin picking away at destructible rocks or take a Xel Naga with it.
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On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I was really excited to see this guide, only to find out that I know far more about scouting in PvT, that it is terribly uninformative, and states things that aren't true. Take the " Pro Tip" regarding chronoing Warpgate as much as possible vs a Tech Lab opening. You can hold just fine using on only chrono one Warpgate depending on your build. You don't need it that fast if you aren't fast expanding since you can FF your ramp for 15 seconds easily buying you time for WG to finish, nor do you need to do that if you spend the chrono on units early instead.
I don't at all want to start an argument with you, BronzeKnee, because you do make some good points in your criticism but I think you're being a little bit disrespectful of the time and effort Voidray put into writing this guide. There are always going to be differences of opinion as to what response is correct in each scenario, and I think VR did a good job of explaining what he would do. If you're trying to help him write better content (and writing more coherent/helpful content is something everyone can improve at), then at least you could leave out describing people's work so negatively.
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BronzeKnee, You do make some good points but if anything this guide is geared more towards beginners. As I have said maybe 3 or 4 times now, I left out meta-gaming tactics for the coherency of the guide. There is only so much a beginner can learn and I believe that with this guide it will make PvT a lot easier for a lot of people do mostly to my scouting techniques. There is always going to be a difference in opinion and there is always going to be "but what if" scenerio and that is why Starcraft II is so fun and challenging. If I were to list a response to every possible BO and list all the "what if's" my guide would be infinity long. Instead, I tried to highlight what I thought were some of the most important things.
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On January 05 2012 04:40 VoidRayRH wrote:
So, with your first probe, or your Primary Scout, you see that the Terran has one gas. This is probably going to be the most common thing to see with your primary scout as most builds (excluding marine gasless expands) require at least one gas. With that being said, the fate of your Terran foe is still to be determined. Because you were gosu and got your probe out after seeing that the Terran had one gas and every building was in check, you then snuck your probe up again at about 4:15 seconds to see the above picture. You see 1 rax with a reactor and another with a tech lab. Nice going probe! Now you know exactly what your opponent is doing, a 2 rax opener into some pressure followed by an expand.
As a Master Terran player, just wanted to point out that against a competent Terran player you will never get your Probe back in the Terran's base this way; unless the Terran player does not pay attention (which does happen, of course; it happens to me sometimes, and it's very annoying to let the Probe slip in your base because you weren't careful), one Marine is enough to deny your second Probe scout since with some micro you can kill it before it goes past the Marine range. And against any Zealot/Stalker poke, you will only see Marines (3 or 4 behind wall if he wants to show you that, or 5 on ramp, etc.), so basically you won't be able yet to say “it's 2 rax”. I may add that by the 4'15 mark, any 3 Supply Depots wall can already be completed (the third Supply Depot will be in construction, but your Probe won't be able to enter anyway).
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Question: is there any good way to determine the difference between a gasless expand and an incoming Marine/SCV all-in?
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@GoStu There are a lot of different ways and honestly probably better ways than what I'm about to tell you but what I do is when I see a gasless expand I take complete map control and leave a stalker right outside there base so it gives the illusion that there might or might not be pressure coming there way. It essentially makes them think twice about moving out with what would only be marines anyway. So with that being said, you will be able to see it coming all the way from the start of there move out with your stalker and be able to kite with it all the way home while making the appropriate decisions back home. Hope that helped and I stopped getting marine scv all-ind since diamond league and haven't encountered it in probably 200 games so if someone has a better strategy feel free to shout out.
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On January 06 2012 13:53 GoStu wrote:
Question: is there any good way to determine the difference between a gasless expand and an incoming Marine/SCV all-in?
This is one of the most frustrating things about PvT, the 2 builds are similar and a good Terran will make it near impossible to decipher which one he is gearing toward. This guide, which was extremely well written, covers the basic timings for scouting a Terran player which should help answer your question. If you use that "secondary" probe poke followed by the stalker poke you should at least see his all-in before he leaves his base which can mean the difference between winning and losing. If he's careless, you might even get into his base to see extra rax or too many marines for the timing, etc. Hope this helps, maybe a better player can elaborate more
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thank you, learnt quite a fair bit about scouting with stalkers.
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@VoidRayRH & @RabidSeagull: Much appreciated, I'll see if I can incorporate that into future PvT. I suppose my fear of losing the Stalker to Concussive Marauders is invalid if I scout no gas. I ask because lately I dropped a game like a fool to a Terran who Marine/SCV'd me. I thought he was going to gasless expand and we could have a macro game like gentlemen; I couldn't have been more wrong.
Thanks!
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@ GoStu - Np! Feel free to PM me about future stream lessons and things to tune into to help you with your play
@Rabidseagull - Thanks for the kind words and as for the scouting, if you see him coming fro his base, you should have ample time to react as he said.
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haha just looking at the title I had a notion of
fast forge -> cannon on ramp -> rush observers asap
that'll work right? hahaha
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On January 06 2012 17:19 evanthebouncy! wrote:
haha just looking at the title I had a notion of
fast forge -> cannon on ramp -> rush observers asap
that'll work right? hahaha
Haha I have a feeling not
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I was really excited to see this guide, only to find out that I know far more about scouting in PvT, that it is terribly uninformative, and states things that aren't true.
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I general, I think you need to restructure it.
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Unfortunately, your post gets lost after organizing the information.
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Instead, you should state something like
Some things stated aren't true 100% of the time, but it's a pretty good guide for someone who is clueless about the matchup. Also, if you know so much more about scouting in PvT and clearly have some great ideas on how to write a better guide, I think everyone could benefit more if you simply created your own guide.
On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
Especially since there are cases when you don't always want or need to follow up scout. For instance if you scout a Terran on TD Altar going for a 2 rax with your Probe scout, and the Terran didn't even bother building a Marine but instead went straight for a Tech Lab, if you send your first Stalker across the map you very well might meet up with a Marauder with Concussive Shells and simply die.
This is a pretty valid point, except I think you ALWAYS want to follow up scout, but not necessarily scouting blindly with your stalker. If you see a tech lab (you usually won't see this tech lab...), regardless of whether or not they made a marine first or if you saw a 2nd rax, it is indeed too dangerous to walk around on the map with your stalker/zealot because like BronzeKnee mentioned, there is the threat of a reaper hopping in your base or your units dying for free from concussive shells.
I usually open Zealot Stalker Stalker (this may not be the best opening anymore, but it still works for me).
1. First zealot checks my base and then around the outskirts of my base for his SCV (which is always going to be hanging out to check for a nexus timing). After, it heads straight toward the Terran base.
2. 1st stalker is rallied to the zealot. They should arrive around the same time due to the Stalkers faster move speed. While the stalker is en route, ideally I still have my Primary scouting probe alive. I sack it to see what’s going on. If I see a marauder I retreat my 1z/1s. If not, pressure/scout.
3. 2nd stalker is left in my base by the mineral line to defend possible reaper.
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On January 06 2012 09:57 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 09:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I was really excited to see this guide, only to find out that I know far more about scouting in PvT, that it is terribly uninformative, and states things that aren't true. Take the " Pro Tip" regarding chronoing Warpgate as much as possible vs a Tech Lab opening. You can hold just fine using on only chrono one Warpgate depending on your build. You don't need it that fast if you aren't fast expanding since you can FF your ramp for 15 seconds easily buying you time for WG to finish, nor do you need to do that if you spend the chrono on units early instead. I don't at all want to start an argument with you, BronzeKnee, because you do make some good points in your criticism but I think you're being a little bit disrespectful of the time and effort Voidray put into writing this guide. There are always going to be differences of opinion as to what response is correct in each scenario, and I think VR did a good job of explaining what he would do. If you're trying to help him write better content (and writing more coherent/helpful content is something everyone can improve at), then at least you could leave out describing people's work so negatively.
On January 06 2012 10:18 VoidRayRH wrote:
BronzeKnee, You do make some good points but if anything this guide is geared more towards beginners. As I have said maybe 3 or 4 times now, I left out meta-gaming tactics for the coherency of the guide. There is only so much a beginner can learn and I believe that with this guide it will make PvT a lot easier for a lot of people do mostly to my scouting techniques. There is always going to be a difference in opinion and there is always going to be "but what if" scenerio and that is why Starcraft II is so fun and challenging. If I were to list a response to every possible BO and list all the "what if's" my guide would be infinity long. Instead, I tried to highlight what I thought were some of the most important things.
I suppose my initial language was harsh (and I toned down the first sentence and I also added some information for the third paragraph). However, I did so because I feel there is a lot misinformation for beginners, and unfortunately I feel like there is a lot of misinformation on this forum in general. The purpose of scouting is to find out what your opponent and doing, so you can adjust everything you do appropriately. I think the hard part for a lot of people isn't necessary getting the information, it how to adjust with the information they get. I feel like your guide only does the former while hinting here and there at the latter, and the latter is what people (like me) really crave.
I don't think it would be any longer if you talked about the "what ifs" it would simply make your guide more complete (you could cut out a lot). As I said you could discuss the possibilities of one gas, and how to scout them, then off two gas and gasless. Honestly the possibilities off two gas and gasless is pretty limited, and thus you'll focus a lot of time on one gas, but I think it would be much more complete.
Without that kind of information your guide is uninformative because it basically states "If you scout 2 Barracks, you can expect your opponent to build Bio Units! And if you scout a factory, you can expect that he is going to be building some kind of tech units!" The problem is you don't account of other things your opponent could be doing, or discuss when and why you need to scout more, or just immediately prepare for something.
On January 07 2012 00:27 terranmoccasin wrote:
Some things stated aren't true 100% of the time, but it's a pretty good guide for someone who is clueless about the matchup. Also, if you know so much more about scouting in PvT and clearly have some great ideas on how to write a better guide, I think everyone could benefit more if you simply created your own guide.
While I believe I know more than this guide presents, I am in no means an expert on scouting in the matchup and am still learning (which I why I opened this thread in the first place). Thus I do not feel that I am qualified to write a guide yet and do not what to spread misinformation.
I however do feel qualified to criticize (and I attempted to do so constructively) though since I know some things about PvT scouting. It is always easier to criticize than to create information, and thus more people are always qualified to criticize than create, and the creators can use the criticism to enhance their creation.
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@BronzeKnee - Although some of your information is possibly right, stating: "I believe I know more than this guide presents" is not constructive or relevant and is simply put there to make you seem superior. If I thought my information was incorrect I wouldn't of written it but the fact is that I do believe it is. There are always going to be different ways of doing things and different opinions but that is just the game. In between your cocky attitude you do bring up interesting points its just the way you go about it that is not constructive. I am by no means an expert either and I am always eager to learn more as well so that being said, I read what you wrote and read through the non-constructive gloating and I thank you for your information.
GL on ladder and best of luck to you,
VoidRay
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On January 07 2012 00:27 terranmoccasin wrote:
Some things stated aren't true 100% of the time, but it's a pretty good guide for someone who is clueless about the matchup. Also, if you know so much more about scouting in PvT and clearly have some great ideas on how to write a better guide, I think everyone could benefit more if you simply created your own guide.
It should be assumed they aren't entirely accurate every time. It's the only way to scout, the only way to gather information on in early PvT, and there are little other assumptions you can make to his build; unless you go ultra fast hallucinate/robo. Day9 pretty much said the exact same things about scouting PvT on his daily on fast reads, though I wish he tl;dr'ed it as whether or not you see a marauder, cause that's basically the difference.
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On January 07 2012 01:32 VoidRayRH wrote:
@BronzeKnee - Although some of your information is possibly right, stating: "I believe I know more than this guide presents" is not constructive or relevant and is simply put there to make you seem superior. If I thought my information was incorrect I wouldn't of written it but the fact is that I do believe it is. There are always going to be different ways of doing things and different opinions but that is just the game. In between your cocky attitude you do bring up interesting points its just the way you go about it that is not constructive. I am by no means an expert either and I am always eager to learn more as well so that being said, I read what you wrote and read through the non-constructive gloating and I thank you for your information.
GL on ladder and best of luck to you,
VoidRay
I said that in response to someone saying why not make your own guide. In my first post, I stated it as part of my argument to lower level players as a reason to look at the guide with a grain of salt.
It appears evident to me that you don't want constructive criticism. Rather than responding to the meat of my argument (or editing your guide if you believe the argument isn't good), you've chewed on the outside, nibbling at the way I write things, rather than what I actually wrote. A good argument (or guide in this case) should defend itself against what content of the criticism (what I wrote), and does not need to defended by attacking the way something is written.
This is evident in the fact that were are discussing gloating and a cocky attitude rather than why or why not you need restructure your guide with information that "could possibly be right" according to you. If it is right it should be in your guide, if it isn't it shouldn't be, and we should be finding that out.
It doesn't bother me either way that a poor guide exists. You can view what I wrote as a cocky holier than thou attitude, or you can just use what I gave you to improve your guide, the same way you can play someone who cheeses you and view them as a jerk and just ignore any lesson that might have taught you, or you can re-watch the replay and improve your game. It doesn't matter to me at all, I made my attempt to improve it.
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I think you should emphasise that no gas does not 100% mean 1 rax FE, I've beaten so many Protoss by building 2 proxy rax after letting him scout 1 in my base because they just play super greedy and don't scout the map
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Just a quick thing to say to OP, in the section talking about 2 rax, you should include 1 gate expand into bo's you can use. really all you need to do with a 1g expo is produce 1 zealot 2 stalkers (cb these) and then expand, cut probes, lay down 2 gates and a robo, and then a sentry. when sentry is finished you wg and your nexus and your robo should finish as well. its a pretty sexy timing. with your first warp in you need to warp in 3 zealots and you're good. you get a fast expo and you hold his push. the part i need to emphasize is absolutely NO cb on wg. i will provide a replay when i get home.
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@Stom2anewbeat - This is very true but I see it only being viable on cross spawns or big maps. As said before this is more geared towards beginners so 3 gate is just safer but I do agree with you. Thanks for the input!
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EPT
