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On January 05 2012 14:49 caradoc wrote:I just think he stumbled upon a style in a couple games, it worked in those situations, then decided to write a guide about it as though it was really fleshed out. The fact that he's now 'grinding out games' to get replays despite the fact that he advises other people to grind 'thousands of games' (like him?) in order to get a sense of the timings, and the fact that there is zero content in the OP kinda annoys me-- he's compensating for content with claims and promises and ego and hand waving on how its a philosophy rather than a strategy and doesn't have any sense of actual timings or scenarios that the build encounters. He can't even answer questions on how to mitigate getting really behind in tech while facing a very turtley opponent which would be the biggest issue this 'philosophy' encounters. I happen to think it's an interesting idea, but the pretensiousness irritates me to no end. He's posturing as some benificent helpful expert on everything, (I guess its just too bad that even as rank 1 GM he has to face noob masters on the ladder so can't give us rabble better replays) but he actually doesn't have the experience of playing this build in a variety of situations either. The idea has some potential in some situations, the 'Guide' aspect of this is *sigh*. imo, should just be honest and present it as what it is, an interesting idea, and a [D] thread-- calling it a guide and treating it as such actually hampers discussion. re: the actual style itself, in the FPVOD, you shouldn't place your buildings like that. good drop play will rip you apart because you're essentially building a terran drop zone with a narrow choke where your zealots will be useless and he can take out all your buildings.
Allow me to inform you that I care so little about what you think about my motives, I almost passed out.
That said, you are 100 percent right about the building placement. It was horrible.
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On January 05 2012 15:13 MrFrenchy wrote:
Great guide! This style is a lot of fun to play, and punishes the hell out of passive terrans.
Have you played this build against/have tips for holding a strong 1-1-1?
Using this style I got rolled by a 1-1-1ing terran who faked an expansion (diamond league).
There are 10.000 versions of 1-1-1 all-in, but IN GENERAL, dont invest into 3rd Nexus, dont invest into Forges.
Instead, add 4th and 5th gateway (assuming you went 1g FE into 3g robo) and cb Immortals and try to engage him as favorably as possible. Try to clean up his marine-tank-SCV with zealot, sentry, immortal, (probe if necessary), and warp in Stalkers after battle to clean up banshees. Hope this helped.
gl hf gg
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updated with a message to everyone who wants replays
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Awesome replays ! Good job 
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Probably should have actually finished your guide before posting it. I don't know why you posted it with at least half of it "coming soon" and only a video and some barebones overview about the strategy without any real specifics. It sounds like a very interesting strategy, no doubt, but don't post it without actually having replays, timings and details you can write about. Get those things, prepare your guide, edit it, THEN post the finished product.
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I really liked this idea. I think people need to realize this is not really a build order but more of a way of playing PvT. Its a style not a build order so don't treat it like one. I love the idea and give this guide a thumbs up
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Hi, i am Philo, the guy who lost pretty badly to his mass zealots/sentries.
After re-watching the game i don't think i could have done something to cancel his fast 3rd with the amount of zealots/sentries he had... Maybe a different opening like FE 5 rax mass marines push would have worked. Mid-late game, drops everywhere and some well placed PF may be good as well.
However, note that i played without knowing anything about this playstyle, that's why it seems so good i think. It's a fun playstyle but i don't think it's as good as those involving colossus/HT.
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Reminds me a bit of this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=237901
Basically the 10 Gate Proxy is very powerful with such a build because it encourages Terran to turtle a bit and makes fast tech less likely.
What you can do is do a Proxy 10 Gate and then use all Chrono on Zealots.
This leads to 0 Probe cut after after first Gate and from there you basically chrono out 7 Zealots over the first 5:45ish of
the game off of 1 Gate. This feels like really tough pressure for Terran.
Take 2 gasses, but do it late (basically first 16 probes on minerals and then gas after that)
Then you can switch to Sentries and either go Rob, Nexus or Nexus, Robo.
I also like 4 Sentries, but I get them later.
The sentries can defend well because you did not take your natural. He can come up your ramp in which case you FF behind him and just crush his army. If he finds your Ninja expo here it is bad, but after being Proxied he will probably assume you are just a bad cheeser and one basing.
From there you go Chargelot/Archon/Immortal with Chronoed upgrades and spam Gateways.
Take 3rd around 9 mins.
The idea is to be spread out. Terran wants to deny economy, production or tech.
If you ninja your expos then your economy is spread.
If you put 3 Gates at each base then your production is spread.
For tech you want to be sure that Templar Archives and Cyber Core are in different bases.
From there you punish Terrans expos and use Warp Prism in their main forcing them to micro at several places at once.
The unmicroed army will get crushed by chargelots and you just out produce in the long run.
Here is a sample build order:
10 Pylon (Proxy)
10 Gateway (Proxy)
14 Zealot (2xChrono)
16 Pylon
17 Zealot
20 Assimilator
21 Zealot (Chrono)
21 Pylon
24 Cyber Core (put this guy on gas)
25 Zealot (Chrono)
28 Assimilator (put 2 guys on gas)
29 Zealot (Chrono)
31 Pylon (put this guy on gas)
31 Warp
32 Zealot (put a guy on gas)
36 Pylon (put this guy on gas)
36 Zealot (Chrono) (Finishes around 5:45)
---By now you are reacting so this is just one route--
38 Robotics Fascility
38 Sentry
40 Nexus (Ninja)
41 Sentry (Chrono)
44 Observer
46 Gateway
46 Sentry (Chrono)
48 Pylon
49 Gateway
(Warp Gate Finishes about now)
50 Sentry (this Warps in around 7:15ish)
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On January 06 2012 06:17 meadbert wrote:Reminds me a bit of this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=237901Basically the 10 Gate Proxy is very powerful with such a build because it encourages Terran to turtle a bit and makes fast tech less likely. What you can do is do a Proxy 10 Gate and then use all Chrono on Zealots. This leads to 0 Probe cut after after first Gate and from there you basically chrono out 7 Zealots over the first 5:45ish of the game off of 1 Gate. This feels like really tough pressure for Terran. Take 2 gasses, but do it late (basically first 16 probes on minerals and then gas after that) Then you can switch to Sentries and either go Rob, Nexus or Nexus, Robo. I also like 4 Sentries, but I get them later. The sentries can defend well because you did not take your natural. He can come up your ramp in which case you FF behind him and just crush his army. If he finds your Ninja expo here it is bad, but after being Proxied he will probably assume you are just a bad cheeser and one basing. From there you go Chargelot/Archon/Immortal with Chronoed upgrades and spam Gateways. Take 3rd around 9 mins. The idea is to be spread out. Terran wants to deny economy, production or tech. If you ninja your expos then your economy is spread. If you put 3 Gates at each base then your production is spread. For tech you want to be sure that Templar Archives and Cyber Core are in different bases. From there you punish Terrans expos and use Warp Prism in their main forcing them to micro at several places at once. The unmicroed army will get crushed by chargelots and you just out produce in the long run. Here is a sample build order: 10 Pylon (Proxy) 10 Gateway (Proxy) 14 Zealot (2xChrono) 16 Pylon 17 Zealot 20 Assimilator 21 Zealot (Chrono) 21 Pylon 24 Cyber Core (put this guy on gas) 25 Zealot (Chrono) 28 Assimilator (put 2 guys on gas) 29 Zealot (Chrono) 31 Pylon (put this guy on gas) 31 Warp 32 Zealot (put a guy on gas) 36 Pylon (put this guy on gas) 36 Zealot (Chrono) (Finishes around 5:45) ---By now you are reacting so this is just one route-- 38 Robotics Fascility 38 Sentry 40 Nexus (Ninja) 41 Sentry (Chrono) 44 Observer 46 Gateway 46 Sentry (Chrono) 48 Pylon 49 Gateway (Warp Gate Finishes about now) 50 Sentry (this Warps in around 7:15ish)
Why are you trolling my dead-serious guide?
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This is, in my opinion, the Moneyball of Starcraft 2 Protoss PvT- for Wings of Liberty anyway. Now that someone has actually figured out how to correctly maximize the power of the warp gate tech and many bases with mass zealot- well, every other PvT style is a dinosaur.
Why do I think this? The key difference between warp gates and other modes of production is that warp gates are front-loaded. This means that as long as the cooldown is up, you can build a unit from that warp gate instantly (OK, almost instantly). This means you do not have to spend money on the unit right when the cooldown is up, like you need to using terran buildings, larvae, etc. Up warp gates are not idle- they are on standby, giving you a strategic option as surely as a nuke in a silo does. Rather than getting more units by burning that cooldown and waiting for another, why not build another warp gate? You can build the unit when you actually need it. And furthermore, you can do this with all your main production if you are focusing on gateway units.
Why is this such a huge change? Protoss can skip unit production now to get more unit production later. A zealot is 100 minerals, a warp gate is merely 150. If you have 20 warp gates, you can produce 20 zealots at a time anywhere you have pylon power. One warp prism flying into the enemy base, or one pylon anywhere at all gives you as much area as you need to burn ALL your warp gates if you so wish.
More importantly, Protoss can use the same reasoning to make Nexuses instead of more gateways if they want income more than more production or units. As demonstrated in the video in the OP- you can get on 3 bases in 7-8 minutes, and take the whole map in no time. You can use zealots to defend, attack with a beefy but expendable mineral-only army, or harass with warp prisms.
This is the future of protoss, assuming HotS/LotV doesn't make huge fundamental changes to the way these mechanics work.
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Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
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On January 06 2012 10:51 ledarsi wrote:
This is, in my opinion, the Moneyball of Starcraft 2 Protoss PvT- for Wings of Liberty anyway. Now that someone has actually figured out how to correctly maximize the power of the warp gate tech and many bases with mass zealot- well, every other PvT style is a dinosaur.
Why do I think this? The key difference between warp gates and other modes of production is that warp gates are front-loaded. This means that as long as the cooldown is up, you can build a unit from that warp gate instantly (OK, almost instantly). This means you do not have to spend money on the unit right when the cooldown is up, like you need to using terran buildings, larvae, etc. Up warp gates are not idle- they are on standby, giving you a strategic option as surely as a nuke in a silo does. Rather than getting more units by burning that cooldown and waiting for another, why not build another warp gate? You can build the unit when you actually need it. And furthermore, you can do this with all your main production if you are focusing on gateway units.
Why is this such a huge change? Protoss can skip unit production now to get more unit production later. A zealot is 100 minerals, a warp gate is merely 150. If you have 20 warp gates, you can produce 20 zealots at a time anywhere you have pylon power. One warp prism flying into the enemy base, or one pylon anywhere at all gives you as much area as you need to burn ALL your warp gates if you so wish.
More importantly, Protoss can use the same reasoning to make Nexuses instead of more gateways if they want income more than more production or units. As demonstrated in the video in the OP- you can get on 3 bases in 7-8 minutes, and take the whole map in no time. You can use zealots to defend, attack with a beefy but expendable mineral-only army, or harass with warp prisms.
This is the future of protoss, assuming HotS/LotV doesn't make huge fundamental changes to the way these mechanics work.
I don't really understand what is the point here, as every race can (and sometimes must) cut unit to make more production buildings. If you cut too much for buildings, you will lose like every other race.
This is particulary true from my experience in PvT@mid-high master, where terran can do some deadly timming push@various timmings - even if you instant warp (well, gateways units are a bit weaker for this reason isn't it ?). They are (imo) too much timming push's in the early game :s (6min30,7m30,9min,10m30...)
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I agree that other races can cut unit production to build other units or structures- that's simply altering the disposition of your resources. That's not really what I meant.
What I see as different for warp gates for protoss is that a warp gate with its cooldown up basically contains a 'virtual unit' that you haven't paid for yet, but can have whenever you want as long as you can afford it when you do need it. As a result, you can build 50 warp gates and have 50 'virtual' units if you need them.
Suppose your opponent has 60 supply of bio units, and you have 40 supply, but you have 20 warp gates with their cooldowns up. You have 20 'virtual' units ready to throw into the battlefield if necessary, which is 40 supply. If you decided you needed to convert all of those into real units you would have 80 supply, more than enough to defend. So you can sit tight with 20 supply LESS than your opponent and be perfectly safe because you have so many warp gates. Then you can make a nexus (or several nexuses) despite your army disadvantage, using the very money you would normally need to manufacture units right now to avoid death should the enemy push.
If your opponent attacks, then you can convert your virtual units into actual units to defend. If he doesn't, then you got away with skimping on spending on military and now have a huge macro advantage.
Other mechanics, such as terran barracks, cannot do this because you have to pay first and then wait for the unit's production time to finish. If you skimp on military to squeeze out a base, and the enemy attacks, you're going to need considerably longer to make units than the time required to simply warp in. While you could theoretically just make 50 barracks and pump out 50 marines in 25 seconds, your reactive construction is considerably delayed compared to warp-in. This means it is more efficient to simply constantly manufacture out of a smaller number of structures.
With warp gate, you could quite reasonably mass warp gate and use much larger, but much longer-phase production cycles, with custom warp-ins in various locations. This lets you warp in exactly the right number of units with a warp prism, be that two or 20. This lets you build exactly the right number of units to hold a push, seconds after you see it coming to kill you. This tailoring is what gets you the extra money to expand everywhere, and the fact that you are focusing on minerals and far less gas. However as long as you're good about scouting, you can ensure you're never so far behind on army that a solid warp-in round won't turn the battle in your favor should the enemy attack. You're completely safe, despite an insane amount of expanding and weakened army.
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On January 06 2012 02:54 GomJabbar wrote:
Probably should have actually finished your guide before posting it. I don't know why you posted it with at least half of it "coming soon" and only a video and some barebones overview about the strategy without any real specifics. It sounds like a very interesting strategy, no doubt, but don't post it without actually having replays, timings and details you can write about. Get those things, prepare your guide, edit it, THEN post the finished product.
My guide as such is done. Replays are only illustrations (and I will add replays as soon as I get them for people who are uncapable of thinking abstractly). Timings vary from game to game and you should be able to calculate these yourself and if not RTS is probably not your game (that said, I will post guidelines about timings when I have time).
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updated with replays
Edit: I played like shit in the replays, but you get the idea. My opponents were high master.
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On January 06 2012 10:51 ledarsi wrote:
This is, in my opinion, the Moneyball of Starcraft 2 Protoss PvT- for Wings of Liberty anyway. Now that someone has actually figured out how to correctly maximize the power of the warp gate tech and many bases with mass zealot- well, every other PvT style is a dinosaur.
I doubt you even read the book Moneyball (maybe you watched the movie) given how asinine the rest of your post was.
Every extra gateway you build beyond the number of gateways you need to spend money at the rate you're collecting it takes away from your army size. There are reasons to build extra gateways (they allow you to warp in between cooldown cycles, and when maxed out they allow you to rebuild huge amounts of supply almost instantly), but no matter how much drivel you write about things being front-loaded or back-loaded you really can't violate simple mathematics, building extra gates cuts into your army size at any time before you are maxed.
All of the 'virtual units' you are talking about cost real money, except that you already spent that real money building the gateway in the first place. Oops!
e: this isn't a commentary on the strategy, just the assertions of this particular poster that this is some magic bullet solution to PvT.
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Very interesting guide, cannot wait to try it out! This guy is a beast with all three races, just watched him defend a 6pool like it was nothing, and then proceed destroy the zerg!
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On January 07 2012 13:28 SEEDaurora wrote:
Very interesting guide, cannot wait to try it out! This guy is a beast with all three races, just watched him defend a 6pool like it was nothing, and then proceed destroy the zerg!
haha, thanks ♥ You're probably thinking about my PvZ vs Alastor on Metalopolis I just played? That game really proves my point about how useless ladder is. Alastor is rank 57 gm on EU, but plays like shit. Such waste of time to play noobs like him. Here's a link to replay to prove I'm not just talking shit:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)AoWııııııııı_vs_(Z)AlaStOr/17155
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EPT
