ATTENTION: DUE TO THE RARITY OF TERRANS ON EU LADDER AND NOT TO MENTION DUE TO THE ABSURD AMMOUNT OF WHINING BECAUSE OF LACK OF REPLAYS, I URGE ALL TERRANS ON EU TO PM ME [AoWııııııııı.998] AND CHALLENGE ME TO TERRAN VS PROTOSS ~~ I WILL UPLOAD REPLAYS HERE NO MATTER THE OUTCOME ~~ JOIN CHANNEL "Zealots Zealots Everywhere" IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO OBS THE MATCHES ~~ I WILL BE STREAMING THE MATCHES AS WELL
I am AoWııııııııı, otherwise known as barcode, EU Playhem daily champion and future GSL champion, I play all races and stream here on Teamliquid ~~ http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/AoWLuXus ~~ I'm being matched with high master to high gm at the moment when I fool around on ladder.
no probe scouting as probe scouting would delay your 2nd and 3rd Gateway ~~ instead scout with first Zealot ~~ I would consider this opening the "safest" FE ~~ at least of the openings I list here
Depending on how quickly Terran techs to Medivacs [late Medivacs --> high marine·marauder[with or without Ghosts] pressure --> 6 Sentries], we rely on 3 to 6 Sentries at all times. Because of our limited Assimilator count, we micro our Sentries as if our lives depended on their survival.
In order to always stay at least even with Terran in upgrades ~~ which we must because Zealots benefit absurdly much from upgrades and upon Zealots we rely ~~ we add two Forges and cb them before our 4th Gateway unless Terran all-ins us.
Warp Prisms and sharking around the map ~~ In order to optimize our trading of Zealots for Terran stuff, we must split up the Terran army as much as possible with Warp Prisms as Zealots do better in small numbers because of surface area and such things + we utilize micro tricks such as flanking + spreading our Zealots pre-battle to optimize the surface area in engagements + we utilize Forcefields to prevent the marines and marauders to kite us more than necessary + we utilize Guardian Shield to help our Zealots to stay alive for them to kill Terran stuff.
How We Utilize Idle Gateways to Increase Our Gateway Count to Hit Timing Windows
Simple, yet underrated concept ~~ by never warping in Zealots without purpose [for defense or for harassment] we can afford increasing our gateway count which allows us to be able to warp in more and more Zealots with our Warp Prisms and optimize timings. This requires good scouting and good understand of what we scout ~~ in other words, knowing if we can survive <Insert Terran pressure> effectively while increasing our gateway count or if we must warp-in Zealots to defend.
I shall reserve this for answering questions in this thread.
On January 03 2012 18:57 kraggy wrote: so how do you deal with early banshee?
I react and warp-in Stalkers if light banshee harassment. If Sky-Terran or Sky-mech, I usually add 3rd Assimilator and build Phoenixes.
On January 03 2012 19:15 Arcanefrost wrote: No way you beat mmmg with pure zealot sentry.
Perhaps, I didnt make this clear enough in my guide, but Zealots, Zealots Everywhere isnt the be all end all composition of PvT. It's more of an approach to secure expansions and harass Terran. Obviously, you will want to transition into Colossi, Templar or both later on.
On January 03 2012 19:35 Trusty wrote: So much 'Coming Soon'
My apologies! I'm updating my guide as soon as possible.
On January 03 2012 20:01 decaf wrote: _Way_ too many spoilers, remove them. Plus try not to sound like some cocky 12 year old. I know we played some on ladder and in custom games so I think I'm right to tell you that you're never going to win the GSL. It's also quite arrogant to copyright your guide's name. Other than that I think it might be a great build once you completed it. Waiting for the whole thing.
Hello decaf. Friendly and charming as always, eh? I'm looking forward to proving you wrong about GSL.
On January 03 2012 21:00 Ravomat wrote: What's the point in having a billion spoilers when half of men are empty? Where are the replays?. This is insulting and a waste of time.
I will be finishing my guide as soon as I can. Thanks for sharing your opinion, though.
On January 03 2012 21:23 caradoc wrote: 1) The tone is at times annoying, it sounds a bit arrogant to me, but other people might appreciate it. Not sure.
2) The spoilers make it very very difficult to navigate, and since like half of them are empty, the whole OP comes across as being half-baked. This relates to the next point...
3) There doesn't seem to be a consistent single coherent fleshed out strategy here-- more like you played a game that exemplified a tendency of getting more zealots in the midgame and then wrote a 'guide' about it without it actually being a refined and fully fleshed out strategy. Yes, zealots are good, yes, they are also cheap and very cost efficient if they can actually do damage, so a strategy that maximizes these strengths is a potentially very strong one, but this guide doesn't actually explain that. It essentially just says something like a) zealots are good. b) zealots are cheap. c) if banshee, get phoenix d) sometimes you need to transition out of zealots e) expand lots.
The fact that there are no replays and the OP is just a skeleton disappoints me because I was expecting a [G], as the title promised.
Answering your 3): This is not as much a fully fleshed out strategy as a philosophy, a way to approach mid-game PvT. Although, I do hope I have time one day for going into details about how I would react against all Terran builds, all my gateway timings and so on and so forth.
On January 03 2012 22:02 Geiko wrote: I want to know more about the double nexus opening
Other than that, as it is the guide can basically be summed up as : get 3 bases on 2 geysers and try to survive until you get an economic lead ? Waiting until it is done to comment further.
3 bases? More like 5 bases @ 13 min :D The synenergy of Zealots Zealots Everywhere is this: by staying on 2 Assimilators for so long, you can expand like crazy while adding gateways like crazy. More expands ---> being able to pressure more --> being able to expand more ---> and so on. The key to making Zealots able to do this is upgrades & Warp Prisms.
On January 03 2012 22:10 Forbidden17 wrote: After watching the vod I think you should really emphasize more heavily on your expansion timings in your guide lol. You had 5base at the 13min mark o.o
Yea you said to expand often to afford more zealots/gateways but I didn't think you'd take your 3rd base ~7min and 4th base right after followed by a 5th before the 4th was even done lols
That said your build looks quite refined for what you've presented, but you need to put content into your guide first.
This is a good point. When I wrote expand whenever feasible, I should probably mention how much expanding you can actually get away with while being quite safe. Thanks.
On January 03 2012 22:19 Trusty wrote: Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech?
What kind of mech and bio mech? 2 base marine tank? Please be more specific, but yes, in general, Zealots are amazing against mech.
Will probably be hard to find a replay against mech, though. It's rare on EU. But maybe I run into Rmdx on ladder or tournament, he plays mech-ish TvP sometimes.
There was a recent TvP post for Sky Mech Terran vs. Protoss. How would you adapt to hellion harrass, and the "philosophy" behind that strategy?
Also, I would love to hear more about these expansion timings, because my jaw dropped when you grabbed your 3rd (and 4th.. and 5TH?!) bases so early...
As such, there are no exact expansion timings, but it's all about expanding as aggressively as possible which requires you to be able to read what you can get away with judged on the map, spawn positions, Terran's build, how the engagements in the game go, and so on and so forth.
Against Sky-mech, I would definitely add a relatively quick 3rd Assimilator and get Phoenixes to shut down Banshee and Hellion harass and I would transition into Zealot, Immortal, Archon and Phoenix (ratio dependant on Terran's composition) after securing my 4th and possibly my 5th depending on map and how aggressively Terran is going to push.
On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote: This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops.
However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge..
Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
This is an excellent question, which my friend Yuffie also asked me. Im assuming you refer to smth like gasless FE into 3 rax 2 ghost timing attack? If that's the case, the trick is to spread your sentries (obviously :D) and to get a pylon behind where Terran will attack from so you can warp in zealots to flank. If you see it coming in time, it shouldnt be hard to defend ~~ or at least, I havent had trouble yet.
That's.. kewl ! I'm doing a similar build ( mass +1 chargelots + sentries on 8 gates ) but on 2 bases, and I transition into archons more quickly ( taking 3rd and 4th gas ) with a third around 10'.
But I really like your approach of expoing like a Zerg. A third at 7:30, a fourth at 12:30.. that's yummy. Definitely going to try that style, thanks
_Way_ too many spoilers, remove them. Plus try not to sound like some cocky 12 year old. I know we played some on ladder and in custom games so I think I'm right to tell you that you're never going to win the GSL. It's also quite arrogant to copyright your guide's name. Other than that I think it might be a great build once you completed it. Waiting for the whole thing.
On January 03 2012 20:01 decaf wrote: _Way_ too many spoilers, remove them. Plus try not to sound like some cocky 12 year old. I know we played some on ladder and in custom games so I think I'm right to tell you that you're never going to win the GSL. It's also quite arrogant to copyright your guide's name. Other than that I think it might be a great build once you completed it. Waiting for the whole thing.
Do you have sand in your vagina or something? Spoilers make the guide clean and easier to maneuver through, and the rest is just a light sense of humor that apparently you are too cool to appreciate? I would suggest finding a hobby like planting bonsai trees or something and taking a break from the computer.
On January 03 2012 20:01 decaf wrote: _Way_ too many spoilers, remove them. Plus try not to sound like some cocky 12 year old. I know we played some on ladder and in custom games so I think I'm right to tell you that you're never going to win the GSL. It's also quite arrogant to copyright your guide's name. Other than that I think it might be a great build once you completed it. Waiting for the whole thing.
Do you have sand in your vagina or something? Spoilers make the guide clean and easier to maneuver through, and the rest is just a light sense of humor that apparently you are too cool to appreciate? I would suggest finding a hobby like planting bonsai trees or something and taking a break from the computer.
User was warned for this post
If you need many spoilers to structure your guide, the guide is poorly structured probably. Do you see spoilers at wikipedia?
On January 03 2012 20:01 decaf wrote: _Way_ too many spoilers, remove them. Plus try not to sound like some cocky 12 year old. I know we played some on ladder and in custom games so I think I'm right to tell you that you're never going to win the GSL. It's also quite arrogant to copyright your guide's name. Other than that I think it might be a great build once you completed it. Waiting for the whole thing.
Do you have sand in your vagina or something? Spoilers make the guide clean and easier to maneuver through, and the rest is just a light sense of humor that apparently you are too cool to appreciate? I would suggest finding a hobby like planting bonsai trees or something and taking a break from the computer.
User was warned for this post
If you need many spoilers to structure your guide, the guide is poorly structured probably. Do you see spoilers at wikipedia?
The table of contents at the top of each wikipedia page has essentially the same role as spoilers...
barcode, you sir are awesome, but I would second the comments about massing spoilers. They are already a pain to navigate through for us people who like to read tl on our cell phones; it's especially disheartening when they are empty!
Other than that thanks for the effort, looks hella fun, can't wait to try it out.
1) The tone is at times annoying, it sounds a bit arrogant to me, but other people might appreciate it. Not sure.
2) The spoilers make it very very difficult to navigate, and since like half of them are empty, the whole OP comes across as being half-baked. This relates to the next point...
3) There doesn't seem to be a consistent single coherent fleshed out strategy here-- more like you played a game that exemplified a tendency of getting more zealots in the midgame and then wrote a 'guide' about it without it actually being a refined and fully fleshed out strategy. Yes, zealots are good, yes, they are also cheap and very cost efficient if they can actually do damage, so a strategy that maximizes these strengths is a potentially very strong one, but this guide doesn't actually explain that. It essentially just says something like a) zealots are good. b) zealots are cheap. c) if banshee, get phoenix d) sometimes you need to transition out of zealots e) expand lots.
The fact that there are no replays and the OP is just a skeleton disappoints me because I was expecting a [G], as the title promised.
On January 03 2012 21:21 xtruder wrote: Sounds like an early reaper will destroy this build. How do you deal with a reaper without suffering relatively huge losses in the beginning?
The game plan doesn't really tell you a set opening. Just any FE build (nexus First ,1 gate variants).
With any 1 gate FE build, you can easily have one stalker in time for a reaper (you could even build this stalker reactivly based on your probe scout).
The OP is presenting a style for the early -> mid game transition & beyond.
Annoying tone to read and many of the parts in the guide just suck.
Playing pure sentry, zealot at start sucks. Sentries suck against pressure before you can make full FF walls with them which usually requires at least 3 FF's. To hold off standard 2 rax pressure for example you're best off using no sentries at all and using a 2 to 1 mix of stalker:zealot.
On January 03 2012 21:21 xtruder wrote: Sounds like an early reaper will destroy this build. How do you deal with a reaper without suffering relatively huge losses in the beginning?
If you are paranoid about reapers getting 10 kills open with a stalker. This guide clearly focuses on the midgame, any discussion of early game is obviously for the sake of explaining how you transition into the midgame.
On January 03 2012 21:30 Markwerf wrote: Annoying tone to read and many of the parts in the guide just suck.
Playing pure sentry, zealot at start sucks. Sentries suck against pressure before you can make full FF walls with them which usually requires at least 3 FF's. To hold off standard 2 rax pressure for example you're best off using no sentries at all and using a 2 to 1 mix of stalker:zealot.
Please watch the FPVOD. There is a game where I utterly demolish 2 rax pressure.
I want to know more about the double nexus opening
Other than that, as it is the guide can basically be summed up as : get 3 bases on 2 geysers and try to survive until you get an economic lead ? Waiting until it is done to comment further.
On January 03 2012 22:02 Geiko wrote: I want to know more about the double nexus opening
Other than that, as it is the guide can basically be summed up as : get 3 bases on 2 geysers and try to survive until you get an economic lead ? Waiting until it is done to comment further.
3 bases? More like 5 bases @ 13 min :D The synenergy of Zealots Zealots Everywhere is this: by staying on 2 Assimilators for so long, you can expand like crazy while adding gateways like crazy. More expands ---> being able to pressure more --> being able to expand more ---> and so on. The key to making Zealots able to do this is upgrades & Warp Prisms.
After watching the vod I think you should really emphasize more heavily on your expansion timings in your guide lol. You had 5base at the 13min mark o.o
Yea you said to expand often to afford more zealots/gateways but I didn't think you'd take your 3rd base ~7min and 4th base right after followed by a 5th before the 4th was even done lols
That said your build looks quite refined for what you've presented, but you need to put content into your guide first.
On January 03 2012 22:10 Forbidden17 wrote: After watching the vod I think you should really emphasize more heavily on your expansion timings in your guide lol. You had 5base at the 13min mark o.o
Yea you said to expand often to afford more zealots/gateways but I didn't think you'd take your 3rd base ~7min and 4th base right after followed by a 5th before the 4th was even done lols
That said your build looks quite refined for what you've presented, but you need to put content into your guide first.
This is a good point. When I wrote expand whenever feasible, I should probably mention how much expanding you can actually get away with while being quite safe. Thanks.
On January 03 2012 22:19 Trusty wrote: Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech?
What kind of mech and bio mech? 2 base marine tank? Please be more specific, but yes, in general, Zealots are amazing against mech.
Will probably be hard to find a replay against mech, though. It's rare on EU. But maybe I run into Rmdx on ladder or tournament, he plays mech-ish TvP sometimes.
On January 03 2012 22:19 Trusty wrote: Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech?
What kind of mech and bio mech? 2 base marine tank? Please be more specific, but yes, in general, Zealots are amazing against mech.
Will probably be hard to find a replay against mech, though. It's rare on EU. But maybe I run into Rmdx on ladder or tournament, he plays mech-ish TvP sometimes.
There was a recent TvP post for Sky Mech Terran vs. Protoss. How would you adapt to hellion harrass, and the "philosophy" behind that strategy?
Also, I would love to hear more about these expansion timings, because my jaw dropped when you grabbed your 3rd (and 4th.. and 5TH?!) bases so early...
On January 03 2012 22:19 Trusty wrote: Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech?
What kind of mech and bio mech? 2 base marine tank? Please be more specific, but yes, in general, Zealots are amazing against mech.
Will probably be hard to find a replay against mech, though. It's rare on EU. But maybe I run into Rmdx on ladder or tournament, he plays mech-ish TvP sometimes.
There was a recent TvP post for Sky Mech Terran vs. Protoss. How would you adapt to hellion harrass, and the "philosophy" behind that strategy?
Also, I would love to hear more about these expansion timings, because my jaw dropped when you grabbed your 3rd (and 4th.. and 5TH?!) bases so early...
As such, there are no exact expansion timings, but it's all about expanding as aggressively as possible which requires you to be able to read what you can get away with judged on the map, spawn positions, Terran's build, how the engagements in the game go, and so on and so forth.
Against Sky-mech, I would definitely add a relatively quick 3rd Assimilator and get Phoenixes to shut down Banshee and Hellion harass and I would transition into Zealot, Immortal, Archon and Phoenix (ratio dependant on Terran's composition) after securing my 4th and possibly my 5th depending on map and how aggressively Terran is going to push.
This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote: This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops.
However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge..
Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote: This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops.
However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge..
Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
That was my concern too. No aoe for such a long time is asking for trouble vs terran bio past the ~120 supply mark.
I later disregarded that concern because while the unit composition seems flawed, the play style is sound. Zealots in small numbers destroy bio in equally small numbers, hence the reason you can rely on them to deal with drops. Utilizing warp prisms, harassing everywhere and forcing the terran to split his forces is the focus of this guide, not the fact that you're staying on zealot-sentry for basically the entire mid-game. If he pushes you before you get aoe out with his entire ball? Base trade him lol, you have 5 bases by 13mins.
On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote: This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops.
However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge..
Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
This is an excellent question, which my friend Yuffie also asked me. Im assuming you refer to smth like gasless FE into 3 rax 2 ghost timing attack? If that's the case, the trick is to spread your sentries (obviously :D) and to get a pylon behind where Terran will attack from so you can warp in zealots to flank. If you see it coming in time, it shouldnt be hard to defend ~~ or at least, I havent had trouble yet.
I love the way the OP is so cost efficient with his armies. I'm a big fan of delayed gas builds (read Spanishiwa) since I think they flow into the late game better, but I'm a bit curious about the OP's insistence on sticking to 2 gases the whole game. Once you are well saturated on three or more bases, why not take 2-4 gases simultaneously? Mass templar could follow from this, and play a similar role to the sentries. The only things that could be troublesome are banshees and hellions, but with mass gates and stockpiled gas, stalkers are readily available. Question to the OP: In case of some 1/1/1 do you bother getting immortals at all?
PS: Please fill up the replay section and tweak up the guide, the basic ideas are v nice, they shouldn't be lost in editing.
On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote: This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops.
However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge..
Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
That was my concern too. No aoe for such a long time is asking for trouble vs terran bio past the ~120 supply mark.
I later disregarded that concern because while the unit composition seems flawed, the play style is sound. Zealots in small numbers destroy bio in equally small numbers, hence the reason you can rely on them to deal with drops. Utilizing warp prisms, harassing everywhere and forcing the terran to split his forces is the focus of this guide, not the fact that you're staying on zealot-sentry for basically the entire mid-game. If he pushes you before you get aoe out with his entire ball? Base trade him lol, you have 5 bases by 13mins.
Exactly. Zealots, Zealots Everywhere is a mid-game approach to secure an absurd ammount of expansions early on through Zealot aggression.
On January 03 2012 23:50 chestnutcc wrote: I love the way the OP is so cost efficient with his armies. I'm a big fan of delayed gas builds (read Spanishiwa) since I think they flow into the late game better, but I'm a bit curious about the OP's insistence on sticking to 2 gases the whole game. Once you are well saturated on three or more bases, why not take 2-4 gases simultaneously? Mass templar could follow from this, and play a similar role to the sentries. The only things that could be troublesome are banshees and hellions, but with mass gates and stockpiled gas, stalkers are readily available. Question to the OP: In case of some 1/1/1 do you bother getting immortals at all?
PS: Please fill up the replay section and tweak up the guide, the basic ideas are v nice, they shouldn't be lost in editing.
Mass Zealot is just mid-game. Once I get 5 bases (usually around 13-15 min) and around 14-24 gateways, I usually start adding Storm and Colossi.
What's stops Terran from doing the same? Terran is under no threat from Protoss and can contain with drop harass. Every time Protoss leaves the base, Terran drops. Meanwhile, Terran can expand just as much as Protoss. Terran will max out in 15 minutes, which gives you 2 minutes to tech to your aoe, which is prob not enough time.
On January 04 2012 00:00 Micket wrote: What's stops Terran from doing the same? Terran is under no threat from Protoss and can contain with drop harass. Every time Protoss leaves the base, Terran drops. Meanwhile, Terran can expand just as much as Protoss. Terran will max out in 15 minutes, which gives you 2 minutes to tech to your aoe, which is prob not enough time.
Im not even going to dignify this with an answer. I hope you are trolling.
Aside from the fact that I think the OP needs to be updated before we really discuss this more (theres not too much meat to discuss here aside from a 'philosophy' of using zealots more in the midgame, which is still interesting), not having stalkers or any dedicated anti air seems to allow terran to build up their medivac count (or banshees/vikings if they like) without being checked at all. You're basically just trading zealots for marines/marauders, and with no gas, you'll be behind in tech while terran masses up a better composition. You won't be able to attack into a narrow choke with good terran building/bunker placement, and any tech transition you do will be comparatively weaker since terran will likely already have ghosts/vikings out by that point.
Of course I'm just theory crafting, but that's really all the build allows us to do at this point with no details -.-""
Don't get me wrong, the idea is kinda interesting, but I'm just posting in the hope that the OP will get updated to an actual guide status. I suppose we could treat it as a [D] instead though.
On January 04 2012 00:08 caradoc wrote: Aside from the fact that I think the OP needs to be updated before we really discuss this more (theres not too much meat to discuss here aside from a 'philosophy' of using zealots more in the midgame, which is still interesting), not having stalkers or any dedicated anti air seems to allow terran to build up their medivac count (or banshees/vikings if they like) without being checked at all. You're basically just trading zealots for marines/marauders, and with no gas, you'll be behind in tech while terran masses up a better composition. You won't be able to attack into a narrow choke with good terran building/bunker placement, and any tech transition you do will be comparatively weaker since terran will likely already have ghosts/vikings out by that point.
Of course I'm just theory crafting, but that's really all the build allows us to do at this point with no details -.-""
Don't get me wrong, the idea is kinda interesting, but I'm just posting in the hope that the OP will get updated to an actual guide status. I suppose we could treat it as a [D] instead though.
This is a guide of an approach to PvT mid-game. This is not a guide of a build.
That said, you raise interesting questions which I have thought about before-hand and was planning to go into detail with. I'm working on it! Havent written anything since college, so it's taking a while to figure out how I want to present my ideas.
On January 04 2012 00:08 caradoc wrote: Aside from the fact that I think the OP needs to be updated before we really discuss this more (theres not too much meat to discuss here aside from a 'philosophy' of using zealots more in the midgame, which is still interesting), not having stalkers or any dedicated anti air seems to allow terran to build up their medivac count (or banshees/vikings if they like) without being checked at all. You're basically just trading zealots for marines/marauders, and with no gas, you'll be behind in tech while terran masses up a better composition. You won't be able to attack into a narrow choke with good terran building/bunker placement, and any tech transition you do will be comparatively weaker since terran will likely already have ghosts/vikings out by that point.
Of course I'm just theory crafting, but that's really all the build allows us to do at this point with no details -.-""
Don't get me wrong, the idea is kinda interesting, but I'm just posting in the hope that the OP will get updated to an actual guide status. I suppose we could treat it as a [D] instead though.
This is a guide of an approach to PvT mid-game. This is not a guide of a build.
That said, you raise interesting questions which I have thought about before-hand and was planning to go into detail with. I'm working on it! Havent written anything since college, so it's taking a while to figure out how I want to present my ideas.
Hence why timings/transitions/details are important :D
On January 04 2012 00:08 caradoc wrote: Aside from the fact that I think the OP needs to be updated before we really discuss this more (theres not too much meat to discuss here aside from a 'philosophy' of using zealots more in the midgame, which is still interesting), not having stalkers or any dedicated anti air seems to allow terran to build up their medivac count (or banshees/vikings if they like) without being checked at all. You're basically just trading zealots for marines/marauders, and with no gas, you'll be behind in tech while terran masses up a better composition. You won't be able to attack into a narrow choke with good terran building/bunker placement, and any tech transition you do will be comparatively weaker since terran will likely already have ghosts/vikings out by that point.
Of course I'm just theory crafting, but that's really all the build allows us to do at this point with no details -.-""
Don't get me wrong, the idea is kinda interesting, but I'm just posting in the hope that the OP will get updated to an actual guide status. I suppose we could treat it as a [D] instead though.
This is a guide of an approach to PvT mid-game. This is not a guide of a build.
That said, you raise interesting questions which I have thought about before-hand and was planning to go into detail with. I'm working on it! Havent written anything since college, so it's taking a while to figure out how I want to present my ideas.
Hence why timings/transitions/details are important :D
Not really. Timings present themselves as such. They vary from game to game. But I will include guidelines about timings and transitions when I update which Im going to asap to help out people who are struggling with that aspect.
Wow, this style looks incredible to me. I have been losing majority of PvT, and I think its because of lack of use of sentries, and too many stalkers, and lack of economy (not knowing when to expand, etc). Your VOD has inspired me to try this out! It looks to me like the trick is good forcefields, and then retreating as they kite, and then do FF again. You made it look easy, not sure I'll have the same success, but I'll try...
I was actually thinking of moving to zealot, archon, phoenix, and forgetting about stalkers entirely, but going to try this out instead...
One question - what use are stalkers then? This might seem like a dumb question, but I'm realizing that how one spends his gas is one of the critical questions to the game, and stalkers take quite a bit of gas...
On January 04 2012 00:49 matrius wrote: Wow, this style looks incredible to me. I have been losing majority of PvT, and I think its because of lack of use of sentries, and too many stalkers, and lack of economy (not knowing when to expand, etc). Your VOD has inspired me to try this out! It looks to me like the trick is good forcefields, and then retreating as they kite, and then do FF again. You made it look easy, not sure I'll have the same success, but I'll try...
I was actually thinking of moving to zealot, archon, phoenix, and forgetting about stalkers entirely, but going to try this out instead...
One question - what use are stalkers then? This might seem like a dumb question, but I'm realizing that how one spends his gas is one of the critical questions to the game, and stalkers take quite a bit of gas...
good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding!
On January 04 2012 00:49 matrius wrote: Wow, this style looks incredible to me. I have been losing majority of PvT, and I think its because of lack of use of sentries, and too many stalkers, and lack of economy (not knowing when to expand, etc). Your VOD has inspired me to try this out! It looks to me like the trick is good forcefields, and then retreating as they kite, and then do FF again. You made it look easy, not sure I'll have the same success, but I'll try...
I was actually thinking of moving to zealot, archon, phoenix, and forgetting about stalkers entirely, but going to try this out instead...
One question - what use are stalkers then? This might seem like a dumb question, but I'm realizing that how one spends his gas is one of the critical questions to the game, and stalkers take quite a bit of gas...
good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding!
You're saying you played a couple thousand pvts using this style and you can't share anything about it, nor give replays, nor fill in any details at all?
Sorry, but this is starting to sound more and more like hand-waving and fairy tales.
On January 04 2012 00:49 matrius wrote: Wow, this style looks incredible to me. I have been losing majority of PvT, and I think its because of lack of use of sentries, and too many stalkers, and lack of economy (not knowing when to expand, etc). Your VOD has inspired me to try this out! It looks to me like the trick is good forcefields, and then retreating as they kite, and then do FF again. You made it look easy, not sure I'll have the same success, but I'll try...
I was actually thinking of moving to zealot, archon, phoenix, and forgetting about stalkers entirely, but going to try this out instead...
One question - what use are stalkers then? This might seem like a dumb question, but I'm realizing that how one spends his gas is one of the critical questions to the game, and stalkers take quite a bit of gas...
good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding!
You're saying you played a couple thousand pvts using this style and you can't share anything about it, nor give replays, nor fill in any details at all?
Sorry, but this is starting to sound more and more like hand-waving and fairy tales.
Im not arrogant enough to claim I have perfect timings. And dude, patience. I'm updating the guide as soon as I can, in between Starcraft II practice.
But thanks for all your constructive comments, bro! Really appreciated!
I must say I'm a bit confused/thrown off by your approach, but still going to give it a whirl. I'm going to try the following, to make it simpler for my little brain:
1) get only zealots/sentries unless banshees around, then get a few stalkers 2) double forge, go to 4 bases, around 15 gateways 3) then get 6 gas and go for templar & archon
Could I bother you for a few more questions? I'll try and not ask you any more questions until I try it out... 1) when do I go for a 200 army? just use observers to stay close to my opponents population? I guess I'm worried I'm going to make too many gateways and not have enough army to hold off MMM, which till now has melted any non-colossi army I've attempted. 2) when should I ever make immortals, as chargelots typically do well vs mech? 3) is your VOD indicative of what a typical MMM opponent does and how you play (or was it a best case scenario)?
On January 04 2012 00:58 AoWLuXus wrote: good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding!
I have been extremely interested in a mass zealot play PvT, as I think they are the most efficient unit in the matchup. Charge is a mandatory upgrade vs T imo.
Organization of guide is a little overboard, with more spoilers than content, however.
I would like to see some replays and discussion of this topic, and an exploration of ideal charge timing, how to defend various all-ins while teching to warp prism charge, etc.
Has anyone else experimented/had success with charge centric play?
On January 04 2012 01:41 matrius wrote: Thanks for the reply luxus!
I must say I'm a bit confused/thrown off by your approach, but still going to give it a whirl. I'm going to try the following, to make it simpler for my little brain:
1) get only zealots/sentries unless banshees around, then get a few stalkers 2) double forge, go to 4 bases, around 15 gateways 3) then get 6 gas and go for templar & archon
Could I bother you for a few more questions? I'll try and not ask you any more questions until I try it out... 1) when do I go for a 200 army? just use observers to stay close to my opponents population? I guess I'm worried I'm going to make too many gateways and not have enough army to hold off MMM, which till now has melted any non-colossi army I've attempted. 2) when should I ever make immortals, as chargelots typically do well vs mech? 3) is your VOD indicative of what a typical MMM opponent does and how you play (or was it a best case scenario)?
On January 04 2012 00:58 AoWLuXus wrote: good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding!
1) yeah, pretty much 2) as a rule of thump (unless you're being all'in'ed or otherwise forced to adapt), double Forge before 4th Gateway, 3rd 4th 5th whenever you think it's safe based on the scouting ~~ you can experiment with this, but I can assure you that you will be surprised at how much expanding you can get away with 3) yeah, I think templar is the best way to transition in most cases, but usually I wait for around 24 gateways to transition unless circumstances dictate otherwise
1) Zealots do best in small numbers, so you want to be seeking favorable or even engagements at all times (esp with Warp Prisms), about the over-making of gateways, it's really just a question of experience ~~ the more you play, the better a feel you get for judging what you can get away with, so my advice is you should experiment :D 2) against heavy, heavy hellion play, I think it's wise to mix in Immortals 3) the guy in the VOD was only high master so doesnt really mean anything, but yes this is what a typical MMM opponent does ~~ and yes I think 1g FE is free win vs 2 rax so I guess it's best case scenario
On January 03 2012 21:30 Markwerf wrote: Annoying tone to read and many of the parts in the guide just suck.
Playing pure sentry, zealot at start sucks. Sentries suck against pressure before you can make full FF walls with them which usually requires at least 3 FF's. To hold off standard 2 rax pressure for example you're best off using no sentries at all and using a 2 to 1 mix of stalker:zealot.
Please watch the FPVOD. There is a game where I utterly demolish 2 rax pressure.
I did and I don't know what terran was doing but that was not a proper 2 rax push... In the VOD terran hits with only 2 marauder 6 marines after your slow expo already finished.. A proper 2 rax hits much earlier, way before your expo would finish and actually before gate 2# and #3 in your build would finish to. Pure zealot/sentry simply can't expand as quickly as zealot/stalker and therefore it is not optimal to start with imo: - you need 2 gas fast and a critical amount of FF's available to stop marauder/marine pressure. At least 3 ff's to form a small FF wall but if terran is splitting up a bit that actually won't be enough. - reapers get much more dangerous - you can't kill their scout nor do you have a good map control unit because of no early stalker.
The entire gameplan based on mass zealots is fine but you need to open with some stalkers. You need some stalkers later anyway to fire at medivacs so no problem in getting a few. Defending mass expansion with PURE zealot/sentry will simply not work if they are good at dropping and stimkiting. Without stalkers to fire at medivacs there is nothing stopping them of simply dropping, stimming, killing some stuff and getting away unharmed. I think getting 1 more gas and just a few stalkers will make it work fine, given the map is large and open enough for zealots to work.
On January 04 2012 02:20 Abrafred wrote: You beat one guy while also expanding like crazy on 2 geysers... he was tired and needed sleep. Chill. You don't have to make a guide about it.
Posts like yours make me believe in humanity. Thanks for the contribution.
That's greed at the level that only zerg can play at in my experience o.o If you upload ways to make that kind of crazieness work out I will ♥ you long time (still reading)
its funny how much rage u get when u pawn someone with mass zealot sentry. Im loving the approach to the matchup because i always wanted to expand like a zerg
to the guy with the 2 gate pressure and at least 3ffs : u realise u have 3 ffs when the push hits because u have gotten your sentry so early?
On January 04 2012 05:56 Xadar wrote: If you are the AoWLuXus i beat on ladder a few times, i am sorry to tell you that you won't be a future GSL champion.
He is not AoWLuxus. Luxus plays Zerg and is probably a team mate of him. Luxus is also not in GM while IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII even holds a a spot in Korean GM. I have to admit that it sounds very arrogant to call himself "future GSL champion" everywhere while being completely unknown and having achieved nothing in the competitive scene so far.
On January 04 2012 05:56 Xadar wrote: If you are the AoWLuXus i beat on ladder a few times, i am sorry to tell you that you won't be a future GSL champion.
He is not AoWLuxus. Luxus plays Zerg and is probably a team mate of him. Luxus is also not in GM while IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII even holds a a spot in Korean GM. I have to admit that it sounds very arrogant to call himself "future GSL champion" everywhere while being completely unknown and having achieved nothing in the competitive scene so far.
Come on guys, a little confidence never hurt anyone. Remember when HuK said he wanted to be the next Boxer and people's heads exploded? Well HuK turned out to be really amazing. Clearly, lofty goals are a good motivator for some players and it's not hurting anyone for said players to have those goals.
On January 04 2012 06:10 theqat wrote: Come on guys, a little confidence never hurt anyone. Remember when HuK said he wanted to be the next Boxer and people's heads exploded? Well HuK turned out to be really amazing. Clearly, lofty goals are a good motivator for some players and it's not hurting anyone for said players to have those goals.
Stop taking things so seriously
yeah but a bunch of my master level friends have beat him in custom/ladder before so i don't see why he should claim to be the next GSL champion if he's not even the best European player. HuK was #1 on NA server for ages.
On January 04 2012 06:10 theqat wrote: Come on guys, a little confidence never hurt anyone. Remember when HuK said he wanted to be the next Boxer and people's heads exploded? Well HuK turned out to be really amazing. Clearly, lofty goals are a good motivator for some players and it's not hurting anyone for said players to have those goals.
Stop taking things so seriously
yeah but a bunch of my master level friends have beat him in custom/ladder before so i don't see why he should claim to be the next GSL champion if he's not even the best European player. HuK was #1 on NA server for ages.
He said "future," not "next." It's just a goal. If he wants to have that level of commitment and confidence, it doesn't affect you.
This is pretty interesting, but don't think you should post an incomplete guide. No replays is a bummer and the vod game wasn't very good in my opinion. That terran just let his army get split up too many times. And I found the copyright thing kinda obnoxious, and as mentioned, you don't need spoilers for everything. Other than that, color me intrigued. Looking forward to the replays.
Will you people lighten up. Calling him arrogant or cocky for labeling himself future GSL champion is the equivalent of calling a 4year old arrogant when he says he wants to grow up and be a firefighter. A bit on the cute side? You be the judge. Arrogant? definitely not.
On topic however: From the VoD it looks very similar to WhiteRa's early game style except he goes into templar instead of expanding as aggressively. He's weakness seems to be well done stim timings into mass drops timed around the completion of charge. Any experience with that?
On January 04 2012 06:45 bananafone wrote: Will you people lighten up. Calling him arrogant or cocky for labeling himself future GSL champion is the equivalent of calling a 4year old arrogant when he says he wants to grow up and be a firefighter. A bit on the cute side? You be the judge. Arrogant? definitely not.
On topic however: From the VoD it looks very similar to WhiteRa's early game style except he goes into templar instead of expanding as aggressively. He's weakness seems to be well done stim timings into mass drops timed around the completion of charge. Any experience with that?
Stim timings can be scary pre-charge, but in my experience the trick is to get a pylon built behind where you expect Terran to attack from, so that you can warp in Zealot to flank from behind.
@ Everyone, asking for replays: I've been doing this style for a while, but I wasnt aware that I was going to share it in this format on TL which means I didnt save up replays, so I'm grinding games atm in order to show you guys some scenarios. I'm really sorry if the guide feels uncomplete without the replays, but I thought I'd share the key concepts with you and add replays as I get them.
On January 04 2012 06:10 theqat wrote: Come on guys, a little confidence never hurt anyone. Remember when HuK said he wanted to be the next Boxer and people's heads exploded? Well HuK turned out to be really amazing. Clearly, lofty goals are a good motivator for some players and it's not hurting anyone for said players to have those goals.
Stop taking things so seriously
yeah but a bunch of my master level friends have beat him in custom/ladder before so i don't see why he should claim to be the next GSL champion if he's not even the best European player. HuK was #1 on NA server for ages.
Excuse me for not taking every game I play 100 percent seriously! + Show Spoiler +
On January 04 2012 06:45 bananafone wrote: Will you people lighten up. Calling him arrogant or cocky for labeling himself future GSL champion is the equivalent of calling a 4year old arrogant when he says he wants to grow up and be a firefighter. A bit on the cute side? You be the judge. Arrogant? definitely not.
Basically this. Come on, guys. Someone making bombastic claims on the internet? How dare he!
Same goes for the copyright thing. I thought it was amusing. That said, if OP is half as good at Starcraft as he is at typing out useless spoiler tags, he'll be GSL champion in no time.
The philosophy is interesting, but it needs more information than a vague starting BO and a half dozen one liners that are far too much work to get to - not to mention a million "coming soon" tags that are even more work to get to - before I would feel at all comfortable trying it out. I can't learn a build from the scant info in the OP, especially a curve-ball style like this.
People here sure are spoiled with perfect guides. It's not complete by any means at the moment but all you need is the idea for people to start experimenting.
I had something I added, to help from my 1gate FE --- with my Robo , later on I add 2 WP, and then use this to create my flanking zealots (the terran walks across map, then I move my WP's into position to warp in).
E.G. on Metal I keep the WP between the watch towers, so I can easily create a flank from both 'lanes'
On January 04 2012 05:56 Xadar wrote: If you are the AoWLuXus i beat on ladder a few times, i am sorry to tell you that you won't be a future GSL champion.
He is not AoWLuxus. Luxus plays Zerg and is probably a team mate of him. Luxus is also not in GM while IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII even holds a a spot in Korean GM. I have to admit that it sounds very arrogant to call himself "future GSL champion" everywhere while being completely unknown and having achieved nothing in the competitive scene so far.
> Luxus is also not in GM while IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII even holds a a spot in Korean GM. care to show proof of this? hmm seems legit. why isn't he or AoW known?
On January 04 2012 05:56 Xadar wrote: If you are the AoWLuXus i beat on ladder a few times, i am sorry to tell you that you won't be a future GSL champion.
He is not AoWLuxus. Luxus plays Zerg and is probably a team mate of him. Luxus is also not in GM while IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII even holds a a spot in Korean GM. I have to admit that it sounds very arrogant to call himself "future GSL champion" everywhere while being completely unknown and having achieved nothing in the competitive scene so far.
> Luxus is also not in GM while IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII even holds a a spot in Korean GM. care to show proof of this?
you people on this forum rage so hard about such stupid things. this guide is ahead of its time. i myself have been doing similar stuff for ages. gas deprivation is basically the next big thing in matchups.
gas deprivation in a matchup where only mineral units can be viable in mid game give you... macro games.
On January 03 2012 21:23 caradoc wrote: 1) The tone is at times annoying, it sounds a bit arrogant to me, but other people might appreciate it. Not sure.
2) The spoilers make it very very difficult to navigate, and since like half of them are empty, the whole OP comes across as being half-baked. This relates to the next point...
3) There doesn't seem to be a consistent single coherent fleshed out strategy here-- more like you played a game that exemplified a tendency of getting more zealots in the midgame and then wrote a 'guide' about it without it actually being a refined and fully fleshed out strategy. Yes, zealots are good, yes, they are also cheap and very cost efficient if they can actually do damage, so a strategy that maximizes these strengths is a potentially very strong one, but this guide doesn't actually explain that. It essentially just says something like a) zealots are good. b) zealots are cheap. c) if banshee, get phoenix d) sometimes you need to transition out of zealots e) expand lots.
The fact that there are no replays and the OP is just a skeleton disappoints me because I was expecting a [G], as the title promised.
no man, you don't understand! He used an 18 month old Meme, that makes it okay, topical, and funny.
Thanks for introducing me to a new style for my pvt, as for the other guys flaming the OP for saying he is a future GSL champ, I take it many of you are former GSL champs? No? Haters?
Well, its been a day, so I'm a bit disappointed that he doesn't have any replays, even a couple would help. Do you have any replays you would be willing to share?
On January 04 2012 10:20 ohokurwrong wrote: you people on this forum rage so hard about such stupid things. this guide is ahead of its time. i myself have been doing similar stuff for ages. gas deprivation is basically the next big thing in matchups.
gas deprivation in a matchup where only mineral units can be viable in mid game give you... macro games.
On January 04 2012 22:23 Ravomat wrote: Please upload some replays. It's the easiest and fastest way to add content to a pretty empty guide. You do have replays, don't you?
My apologies! I think I underestimated how many people would find the ideas too abstract -- but Im grinding games as I write this so I can upload replays ASAP!
On January 04 2012 09:28 Trusty wrote: Hi AoWIIIIIIIIIII
I had something I added, to help from my 1gate FE --- with my Robo , later on I add 2 WP, and then use this to create my flanking zealots (the terran walks across map, then I move my WP's into position to warp in).
E.G. on Metal I keep the WP between the watch towers, so I can easily create a flank from both 'lanes'
I like the idea, but if you go robo before 2nd and 3th gateway, you're going to need to make an immortal, unless you scout you dont need one.
On January 04 2012 09:24 hugedong wrote: People here sure are spoiled with perfect guides. It's not complete by any means at the moment but all you need is the idea for people to start experimenting.
Yes, this is what I thought. But people demand replays, so I'm grinding games!
On January 04 2012 05:20 BoondockVeritas wrote: "AoWııııııııı's pylon·Nexus·pylon·Nexus·Gateway·Gateway" ???????
That's greed at the level that only zerg can play at in my experience o.o If you upload ways to make that kind of crazieness work out I will ♥ you long time (still reading)
It's perfectly safe against CC first, but gets tricky against 12 rax bunker pressure, but I think you can hold. I will definitely upload replays ASAP.
On January 03 2012 18:40 AoWLuXus wrote: I shall reserve this for answering questions in this thread.
How many zealots do you make before you know to stop zealots production?
As a general rule, only warp in Zealots [contrary to spending money on Nexii and Gateways] if they serve a purpose for harassment or defense (either defending harass or timings). Hope this answers your question.
for such a zealot heavy style fast expanding and keeping the terran busy is crucial. 2 gas as the guide tells is really enough to support an almost pure zealot army.
The Problem with this build is that it loses alot of effectiveness if your opponent knows how to deal with a high zealot count (good simcity that is)
btw, anyone know a good place to upload replays? I got a couple for you, but sc2replayed is giving me errors and I cant figure out where to upload replays on SC-Replays.net. HALP PL0X
btw, anyone know a good place to upload replays? I got a couple for you, but sc2replayed is giving me errors and I cant figure out where to upload replays on SC-Replays.net. HALP PL0X
On January 04 2012 09:28 Trusty wrote: Hi AoWIIIIIIIIIII
I had something I added, to help from my 1gate FE --- with my Robo , later on I add 2 WP, and then use this to create my flanking zealots (the terran walks across map, then I move my WP's into position to warp in).
E.G. on Metal I keep the WP between the watch towers, so I can easily create a flank from both 'lanes'
I like the idea, but if you go robo before 2nd and 3th gateway, you're going to need to make an immortal, unless you scout you dont need one.
Hmm I follow the MC style of 1-gate FE, which revolves around fast obs. No need to make an immortal if you play it right.
(poke @ 4:00 to decide if you add the robo before gates 2 and 3. or after)
Wow, nice replay. I am truly excited to try this out, and certainly can't hurt my TvP, which is not good at the moment. I was surprised at the expansion timing I must say! And drops, which usually hurt me a lot look to be easy to deal with, which I can't tell you how awesome that is. In fact, because you have so many expansions, even IF a nexus was sniped (which has happened to me more than once), it just isn't a problem, just move your probes around to one of the other bases.
You play better than I do when you don't concentrate and I'm glued to the monitor, I must say.
Um, there was one point where I thought some stalkers could have really helped - when he attacked your 5th base. You pulled in a round of zealots (like 10). If you had made stalkers, you could have increased your dps (as your zealots had a complete surround) and you could have picked off the medivacs too. I wonder why not?
You make it look easy, I would like to see another, and an example of when this didn't work out so well. So far the results have been very lopsided. Or, are you thinking you want to keep counters to yourself for now?
Sounds like the protoss equivalent to mass zergling. Considering how strong zealots are compared to zerglings, it certainly sounds like it has the potential to work.
On January 05 2012 06:30 matrius wrote: Wow, nice replay. I am truly excited to try this out, and certainly can't hurt my TvP, which is not good at the moment. I was surprised at the expansion timing I must say! And drops, which usually hurt me a lot look to be easy to deal with, which I can't tell you how awesome that is. In fact, because you have so many expansions, even IF a nexus was sniped (which has happened to me more than once), it just isn't a problem, just move your probes around to one of the other bases.
You play better than I do when you don't concentrate and I'm glued to the monitor, I must say.
Um, there was one point where I thought some stalkers could have really helped - when he attacked your 5th base. You pulled in a round of zealots (like 10). If you had made stalkers, you could have increased your dps (as your zealots had a complete surround) and you could have picked off the medivacs too. I wonder why not?
You make it look easy, I would like to see another, and an example of when this didn't work out so well. So far the results have been very lopsided. Or, are you thinking you want to keep counters to yourself for now?
Thank you again!
I'm going to go into counters when I get time. About the stalkers thing, at that point in the game it was painfully obvious I couldnt lose the game, so couldnt concentrate. I positioned my zealots bad and I didnt warp in Stalkers, cuz then I wouldnt have gas for my 3/3. If you notice the timing, when my 2/2 finish I have exactly enough gas for 3/3, so couldnt afford stalkers.
On January 04 2012 22:23 Ravomat wrote: Please upload some replays. It's the easiest and fastest way to add content to a pretty empty guide. You do have replays, don't you?
My apologies! I think I underestimated how many people would find the ideas too abstract -- but Im grinding games as I write this so I can upload replays ASAP!
Well, as long as there are no replays it's just a claim and therefor theory-crafting. All you did was saying that zealots are good in PvT. While I agree with this statement you said they are also very good in a very specific situation (aggressive drops to actively trade) which I don't believe until you've proven it via replays.
Now to the replay: It's a game against a ridiculously passive Terran who does absolutely nothing and gets steamrolled eventually because you can do whatever you want. You took a greedy 3rd base and got away with it. 4rax marine pressure would have killed your 5sentry 1zealot force with ease. Also I only saw 1 warp prism and that only after 12min when you're on 4 bases already. I thought a trademark of this style would be aggressive zealot trades, I didn't see any. All I saw was greedy play vs turtle play which the greedy guy always wins. You could have done everything you wanted after you took your 3rd.
I am still not convinced. How about you post a replay where you lose or at least don't play a super passive guy.
On January 04 2012 22:23 Ravomat wrote: Please upload some replays. It's the easiest and fastest way to add content to a pretty empty guide. You do have replays, don't you?
My apologies! I think I underestimated how many people would find the ideas too abstract -- but Im grinding games as I write this so I can upload replays ASAP!
Well, as long as there are no replays it's just a claim and therefor theory-crafting. All you did was saying that zealots are good in PvT. While I agree with this statement you said they are also very good in a very specific situation (aggressive drops to actively trade) which I don't believe until you've proven it via replays.
Now to the replay: It's a game against a ridiculously passive Terran who does absolutely nothing and gets steamrolled eventually because you can do whatever you want. You took a greedy 3rd base and got away with it. 4rax marine pressure would have killed your 5sentry 1zealot force with ease. Also I only saw 1 warp prism and that only after 12min when you're on 4 bases already. I thought a trademark of this style would be aggressive zealot trades, I didn't see any. All I saw was greedy play vs turtle play which the greedy guy always wins. You could have done everything you wanted after you took your 3rd.
I am still not convinced. How about you post a replay where you lose or at least don't play a super passive guy.
Problem is: even as rank 1 gm, you get matched with noobs like the one I played (he's high master)... It's hard to find good Terrans in particular on ladder. I can only pray I get lucky and get someone like ThorZaIN, but meanwhile you'll have to settle for replays against high master noobs.
Edit: that sounded like I was rank 1 gm, which I am not. I'm just stating that as a general problem with ladder.
Edit2: if you watch replay, my 3rd wasnt greedy. I could defend it with the saved up cb I had. It's a quick 3rd, yes, but it's perfectly safe!
It would be nice to have more than 1 replay of this actually working. Can you upload more? I think a good build need at least 5 replays to prove that it is a stable build.
It would be nice to have more than 1 replay of this actually working. Can you upload more? I think a good build need at least 5 replays to prove that it is a stable build.
This is a common missunderstanding. This is not a guide about a build. This is a guide of a way to approach mid-game PvT.
and yes, replays are coming as soon as I meet more Terrans. There are almost no Terrans on EU ladder ... and my friends are scared of my zealot strat... I will add replays as soon as I can.
On January 04 2012 22:23 Ravomat wrote: Please upload some replays. It's the easiest and fastest way to add content to a pretty empty guide. You do have replays, don't you?
My apologies! I think I underestimated how many people would find the ideas too abstract -- but Im grinding games as I write this so I can upload replays ASAP!
Well, as long as there are no replays it's just a claim and therefor theory-crafting. All you did was saying that zealots are good in PvT. While I agree with this statement you said they are also very good in a very specific situation (aggressive drops to actively trade) which I don't believe until you've proven it via replays.
Now to the replay: It's a game against a ridiculously passive Terran who does absolutely nothing and gets steamrolled eventually because you can do whatever you want. You took a greedy 3rd base and got away with it. 4rax marine pressure would have killed your 5sentry 1zealot force with ease. Also I only saw 1 warp prism and that only after 12min when you're on 4 bases already. I thought a trademark of this style would be aggressive zealot trades, I didn't see any. All I saw was greedy play vs turtle play which the greedy guy always wins. You could have done everything you wanted after you took your 3rd.
I am still not convinced. How about you post a replay where you lose or at least don't play a super passive guy.
Problem is: even as rank 1 gm, you get matched with noobs like the one I played (he's high master)... It's hard to find good Terrans in particular on ladder. I can only pray I get lucky and get someone like ThorZaIN, but meanwhile you'll have to settle for replays against high master noobs.
Edit: that sounded like I was rank 1 gm, which I am not. I'm just stating that as a general problem with ladder.
Edit2: if you watch replay, my 3rd wasnt greedy. I could defend it with the saved up cb I had. It's a quick 3rd, yes, but it's perfectly safe!
A 3rd nexus at 6:20 right when the first expo finishes is pretty damn greedy if you ask me. For me to believe it was safe I have to ask for more replays especially against 4rax plays. You have no knowledge of what terran is doing. All you know he built a bunker though I have seen 2rax plays which get a bunker to deceive protoss. I just don't believe it's safe especially because you start your double upgrades right after you start building your 3rd base. Any dedicated push should at least kill your 3rd. Though I realize I can't blame you for your opponent's negligence of scouting.
On January 04 2012 22:23 Ravomat wrote: Please upload some replays. It's the easiest and fastest way to add content to a pretty empty guide. You do have replays, don't you?
My apologies! I think I underestimated how many people would find the ideas too abstract -- but Im grinding games as I write this so I can upload replays ASAP!
Well, as long as there are no replays it's just a claim and therefor theory-crafting. All you did was saying that zealots are good in PvT. While I agree with this statement you said they are also very good in a very specific situation (aggressive drops to actively trade) which I don't believe until you've proven it via replays.
Now to the replay: It's a game against a ridiculously passive Terran who does absolutely nothing and gets steamrolled eventually because you can do whatever you want. You took a greedy 3rd base and got away with it. 4rax marine pressure would have killed your 5sentry 1zealot force with ease. Also I only saw 1 warp prism and that only after 12min when you're on 4 bases already. I thought a trademark of this style would be aggressive zealot trades, I didn't see any. All I saw was greedy play vs turtle play which the greedy guy always wins. You could have done everything you wanted after you took your 3rd.
I am still not convinced. How about you post a replay where you lose or at least don't play a super passive guy.
Problem is: even as rank 1 gm, you get matched with noobs like the one I played (he's high master)... It's hard to find good Terrans in particular on ladder. I can only pray I get lucky and get someone like ThorZaIN, but meanwhile you'll have to settle for replays against high master noobs.
Edit: that sounded like I was rank 1 gm, which I am not. I'm just stating that as a general problem with ladder.
Edit2: if you watch replay, my 3rd wasnt greedy. I could defend it with the saved up cb I had. It's a quick 3rd, yes, but it's perfectly safe!
A 3rd nexus at 6:20 right when the first expo finishes is pretty damn greedy if you ask me. For me to believe it was safe I have to ask for more replays especially against 4rax plays. You have no knowledge of what terran is doing. All you know he built a bunker though I have seen 2rax plays which get a bunker to deceive protoss. I just don't believe it's safe especially because you start your double upgrades right after you start building your 3rd base. Any dedicated push should at least kill your 3rd. Though I realize I can't blame you for your opponent's negligence of scouting.
WORST WORST WORST case scenario, I would be forced to cancel my 3rd, and then I would be infinitely ahead anyway.
It's only greedy if you're praying your opponent doesnt know or doesnt assume which I am not. I'm playing calculatedly. 'tis not greed, it's game understanding.
On January 05 2012 08:19 chestnutcc wrote: omg epic replay, maxed at 15 minutes and an endless swarm of 3/3 zealots. Would like to see some transition based replays though.
This will be hard. Most of my opponents just die. But hopefully I get a good Terran like ThorZaIN or Kas soon.
TC. I am looking, with much anticipation, forward to seeing this guide upon completion. The lack of replays and casts etc leaves a bit underwhelmed. This is somewhat how I like to play Toss, so it's quite interesting to me.
CHeers for this guide bro its looking good :D Finding it very useful in terms of improving my play and gerel builds vs terran :D cant wait to crush some noob terrans wiv ma zealots :D
On January 05 2012 13:55 Irishkimbob wrote: CHeers for this guide bro its looking good :D Finding it very useful in terms of improving my play and gerel builds vs terran :D cant wait to crush some noob terrans wiv ma zealots :D
I tried this strat/approach out a few times with good success so far. I lost my natural to a 1-1-1, but then the next time held. Both times I won the game. In the second game that I held my natural, I did a counter attack that wasn't very efficient - can be hard to attack a bunkered/sieged up terran.
One game I lost, but it was my fault, new to strat, didn't macro properly. He attacked with MMMG, and I couldn't get off my FF.
One thing that is that I don't know what to do after my third. Zealots, even with upgrades, start to be less effective in ball encounters, and on maps like metalopolis, I find it hard to flank...would love to see some replays of that map, and look forward to reading transitions...
On January 05 2012 12:34 AoWLuXus wrote: In all seriousness, I only ran into 1 Terran on ladder today... but as compensation I posted two random replays of Nexus Nexus and ghost drop ♥
game one was against my mid-master friend XeRoX game two was against his mid-master friend
I just think he stumbled upon a style in a couple games, it worked in those situations, then decided to write a guide about it as though it was really fleshed out. The fact that he's now 'grinding out games' to get replays despite the fact that he advises other people to grind 'thousands of games' (like him?) in order to get a sense of the timings, and the fact that there is zero content in the OP kinda annoys me-- he's compensating for content with claims and promises and ego and hand waving on how its a philosophy rather than a strategy and doesn't have any sense of actual timings or scenarios that the build encounters. He can't even answer questions on how to mitigate getting really behind in tech while facing a very turtley opponent which would be the biggest issue this 'philosophy' encounters.
I happen to think it's an interesting idea, but the pretensiousness irritates me to no end. He's posturing as some benificent helpful expert on everything, (I guess its just too bad that even as rank 1 GM he has to face noob masters on the ladder so can't give us rabble better replays) but he actually doesn't have the experience of playing this build in a variety of situations either. The idea has some potential in some situations, the 'Guide' aspect of this is *sigh*.
imo, should just be honest and present it as what it is, an interesting idea, and a [D] thread-- calling it a guide and treating it as such actually hampers discussion.
re: the actual style itself, in the FPVOD, you shouldn't place your buildings like that. good drop play will rip you apart because you're essentially building a terran drop zone with a narrow choke where your zealots will be useless and he can take out all your buildings.
I just think he stumbled upon a style in a couple games, it worked in those situations, then decided to write a guide about it as though it was really fleshed out. The fact that he's now 'grinding out games' to get replays despite the fact that he advises other people to grind 'thousands of games' (like him?) in order to get a sense of the timings, and the fact that there is zero content in the OP kinda annoys me-- he's compensating for content with claims and promises and ego and hand waving on how its a philosophy rather than a strategy and doesn't have any sense of actual timings or scenarios that the build encounters. He can't even answer questions on how to mitigate getting really behind in tech while facing a very turtley opponent which would be the biggest issue this 'philosophy' encounters.
I happen to think it's an interesting idea, but the pretensiousness irritates me to no end. He's posturing as some benificent helpful expert on everything, (I guess its just too bad that even as rank 1 GM he has to face noob masters on the ladder so can't give us rabble better replays) but he actually doesn't have the experience of playing this build in a variety of situations either. The idea has some potential in some situations, the 'Guide' aspect of this is *sigh*.
imo, should just be honest and present it as what it is, an interesting idea, and a [D] thread-- calling it a guide and treating it as such actually hampers discussion.
re: the actual style itself, in the FPVOD, you shouldn't place your buildings like that. good drop play will rip you apart because you're essentially building a terran drop zone with a narrow choke where your zealots will be useless and he can take out all your buildings.
Allow me to inform you that I care so little about what you think about my motives, I almost passed out.
That said, you are 100 percent right about the building placement. It was horrible.
On January 05 2012 15:13 MrFrenchy wrote: Great guide! This style is a lot of fun to play, and punishes the hell out of passive terrans.
Have you played this build against/have tips for holding a strong 1-1-1?
Using this style I got rolled by a 1-1-1ing terran who faked an expansion (diamond league).
There are 10.000 versions of 1-1-1 all-in, but IN GENERAL, dont invest into 3rd Nexus, dont invest into Forges.
Instead, add 4th and 5th gateway (assuming you went 1g FE into 3g robo) and cb Immortals and try to engage him as favorably as possible. Try to clean up his marine-tank-SCV with zealot, sentry, immortal, (probe if necessary), and warp in Stalkers after battle to clean up banshees. Hope this helped.
Probably should have actually finished your guide before posting it. I don't know why you posted it with at least half of it "coming soon" and only a video and some barebones overview about the strategy without any real specifics. It sounds like a very interesting strategy, no doubt, but don't post it without actually having replays, timings and details you can write about. Get those things, prepare your guide, edit it, THEN post the finished product.
I really liked this idea. I think people need to realize this is not really a build order but more of a way of playing PvT. Its a style not a build order so don't treat it like one. I love the idea and give this guide a thumbs up
Hi, i am Philo, the guy who lost pretty badly to his mass zealots/sentries.
After re-watching the game i don't think i could have done something to cancel his fast 3rd with the amount of zealots/sentries he had... Maybe a different opening like FE 5 rax mass marines push would have worked. Mid-late game, drops everywhere and some well placed PF may be good as well.
However, note that i played without knowing anything about this playstyle, that's why it seems so good i think. It's a fun playstyle but i don't think it's as good as those involving colossus/HT.
Basically the 10 Gate Proxy is very powerful with such a build because it encourages Terran to turtle a bit and makes fast tech less likely.
What you can do is do a Proxy 10 Gate and then use all Chrono on Zealots. This leads to 0 Probe cut after after first Gate and from there you basically chrono out 7 Zealots over the first 5:45ish of the game off of 1 Gate. This feels like really tough pressure for Terran. Take 2 gasses, but do it late (basically first 16 probes on minerals and then gas after that)
Then you can switch to Sentries and either go Rob, Nexus or Nexus, Robo. I also like 4 Sentries, but I get them later.
The sentries can defend well because you did not take your natural. He can come up your ramp in which case you FF behind him and just crush his army. If he finds your Ninja expo here it is bad, but after being Proxied he will probably assume you are just a bad cheeser and one basing.
From there you go Chargelot/Archon/Immortal with Chronoed upgrades and spam Gateways.
Take 3rd around 9 mins.
The idea is to be spread out. Terran wants to deny economy, production or tech.
If you ninja your expos then your economy is spread.
If you put 3 Gates at each base then your production is spread.
For tech you want to be sure that Templar Archives and Cyber Core are in different bases.
From there you punish Terrans expos and use Warp Prism in their main forcing them to micro at several places at once. The unmicroed army will get crushed by chargelots and you just out produce in the long run.
Here is a sample build order: 10 Pylon (Proxy) 10 Gateway (Proxy) 14 Zealot (2xChrono) 16 Pylon 17 Zealot 20 Assimilator 21 Zealot (Chrono) 21 Pylon 24 Cyber Core (put this guy on gas) 25 Zealot (Chrono) 28 Assimilator (put 2 guys on gas) 29 Zealot (Chrono) 31 Pylon (put this guy on gas) 31 Warp 32 Zealot (put a guy on gas) 36 Pylon (put this guy on gas) 36 Zealot (Chrono) (Finishes around 5:45) ---By now you are reacting so this is just one route-- 38 Robotics Fascility 38 Sentry 40 Nexus (Ninja) 41 Sentry (Chrono) 44 Observer 46 Gateway 46 Sentry (Chrono) 48 Pylon 49 Gateway (Warp Gate Finishes about now) 50 Sentry (this Warps in around 7:15ish)
Basically the 10 Gate Proxy is very powerful with such a build because it encourages Terran to turtle a bit and makes fast tech less likely.
What you can do is do a Proxy 10 Gate and then use all Chrono on Zealots. This leads to 0 Probe cut after after first Gate and from there you basically chrono out 7 Zealots over the first 5:45ish of the game off of 1 Gate. This feels like really tough pressure for Terran. Take 2 gasses, but do it late (basically first 16 probes on minerals and then gas after that)
Then you can switch to Sentries and either go Rob, Nexus or Nexus, Robo. I also like 4 Sentries, but I get them later.
The sentries can defend well because you did not take your natural. He can come up your ramp in which case you FF behind him and just crush his army. If he finds your Ninja expo here it is bad, but after being Proxied he will probably assume you are just a bad cheeser and one basing.
From there you go Chargelot/Archon/Immortal with Chronoed upgrades and spam Gateways.
Take 3rd around 9 mins.
The idea is to be spread out. Terran wants to deny economy, production or tech.
If you ninja your expos then your economy is spread.
If you put 3 Gates at each base then your production is spread.
For tech you want to be sure that Templar Archives and Cyber Core are in different bases.
From there you punish Terrans expos and use Warp Prism in their main forcing them to micro at several places at once. The unmicroed army will get crushed by chargelots and you just out produce in the long run.
Here is a sample build order: 10 Pylon (Proxy) 10 Gateway (Proxy) 14 Zealot (2xChrono) 16 Pylon 17 Zealot 20 Assimilator 21 Zealot (Chrono) 21 Pylon 24 Cyber Core (put this guy on gas) 25 Zealot (Chrono) 28 Assimilator (put 2 guys on gas) 29 Zealot (Chrono) 31 Pylon (put this guy on gas) 31 Warp 32 Zealot (put a guy on gas) 36 Pylon (put this guy on gas) 36 Zealot (Chrono) (Finishes around 5:45) ---By now you are reacting so this is just one route-- 38 Robotics Fascility 38 Sentry 40 Nexus (Ninja) 41 Sentry (Chrono) 44 Observer 46 Gateway 46 Sentry (Chrono) 48 Pylon 49 Gateway (Warp Gate Finishes about now) 50 Sentry (this Warps in around 7:15ish)
This is, in my opinion, the Moneyball of Starcraft 2 Protoss PvT- for Wings of Liberty anyway. Now that someone has actually figured out how to correctly maximize the power of the warp gate tech and many bases with mass zealot- well, every other PvT style is a dinosaur.
Why do I think this? The key difference between warp gates and other modes of production is that warp gates are front-loaded. This means that as long as the cooldown is up, you can build a unit from that warp gate instantly (OK, almost instantly). This means you do not have to spend money on the unit right when the cooldown is up, like you need to using terran buildings, larvae, etc. Up warp gates are not idle- they are on standby, giving you a strategic option as surely as a nuke in a silo does. Rather than getting more units by burning that cooldown and waiting for another, why not build another warp gate? You can build the unit when you actually need it. And furthermore, you can do this with all your main production if you are focusing on gateway units.
Why is this such a huge change? Protoss can skip unit production now to get more unit production later. A zealot is 100 minerals, a warp gate is merely 150. If you have 20 warp gates, you can produce 20 zealots at a time anywhere you have pylon power. One warp prism flying into the enemy base, or one pylon anywhere at all gives you as much area as you need to burn ALL your warp gates if you so wish.
More importantly, Protoss can use the same reasoning to make Nexuses instead of more gateways if they want income more than more production or units. As demonstrated in the video in the OP- you can get on 3 bases in 7-8 minutes, and take the whole map in no time. You can use zealots to defend, attack with a beefy but expendable mineral-only army, or harass with warp prisms.
This is the future of protoss, assuming HotS/LotV doesn't make huge fundamental changes to the way these mechanics work.
On January 06 2012 10:51 ledarsi wrote: This is, in my opinion, the Moneyball of Starcraft 2 Protoss PvT- for Wings of Liberty anyway. Now that someone has actually figured out how to correctly maximize the power of the warp gate tech and many bases with mass zealot- well, every other PvT style is a dinosaur.
Why do I think this? The key difference between warp gates and other modes of production is that warp gates are front-loaded. This means that as long as the cooldown is up, you can build a unit from that warp gate instantly (OK, almost instantly). This means you do not have to spend money on the unit right when the cooldown is up, like you need to using terran buildings, larvae, etc. Up warp gates are not idle- they are on standby, giving you a strategic option as surely as a nuke in a silo does. Rather than getting more units by burning that cooldown and waiting for another, why not build another warp gate? You can build the unit when you actually need it. And furthermore, you can do this with all your main production if you are focusing on gateway units.
Why is this such a huge change? Protoss can skip unit production now to get more unit production later. A zealot is 100 minerals, a warp gate is merely 150. If you have 20 warp gates, you can produce 20 zealots at a time anywhere you have pylon power. One warp prism flying into the enemy base, or one pylon anywhere at all gives you as much area as you need to burn ALL your warp gates if you so wish.
More importantly, Protoss can use the same reasoning to make Nexuses instead of more gateways if they want income more than more production or units. As demonstrated in the video in the OP- you can get on 3 bases in 7-8 minutes, and take the whole map in no time. You can use zealots to defend, attack with a beefy but expendable mineral-only army, or harass with warp prisms.
This is the future of protoss, assuming HotS/LotV doesn't make huge fundamental changes to the way these mechanics work.
I don't really understand what is the point here, as every race can (and sometimes must) cut unit to make more production buildings. If you cut too much for buildings, you will lose like every other race. This is particulary true from my experience in PvT@mid-high master, where terran can do some deadly timming push@various timmings - even if you instant warp (well, gateways units are a bit weaker for this reason isn't it ?). They are (imo) too much timming push's in the early game :s (6min30,7m30,9min,10m30...)
I agree that other races can cut unit production to build other units or structures- that's simply altering the disposition of your resources. That's not really what I meant.
What I see as different for warp gates for protoss is that a warp gate with its cooldown up basically contains a 'virtual unit' that you haven't paid for yet, but can have whenever you want as long as you can afford it when you do need it. As a result, you can build 50 warp gates and have 50 'virtual' units if you need them.
Suppose your opponent has 60 supply of bio units, and you have 40 supply, but you have 20 warp gates with their cooldowns up. You have 20 'virtual' units ready to throw into the battlefield if necessary, which is 40 supply. If you decided you needed to convert all of those into real units you would have 80 supply, more than enough to defend. So you can sit tight with 20 supply LESS than your opponent and be perfectly safe because you have so many warp gates. Then you can make a nexus (or several nexuses) despite your army disadvantage, using the very money you would normally need to manufacture units right now to avoid death should the enemy push.
If your opponent attacks, then you can convert your virtual units into actual units to defend. If he doesn't, then you got away with skimping on spending on military and now have a huge macro advantage.
Other mechanics, such as terran barracks, cannot do this because you have to pay first and then wait for the unit's production time to finish. If you skimp on military to squeeze out a base, and the enemy attacks, you're going to need considerably longer to make units than the time required to simply warp in. While you could theoretically just make 50 barracks and pump out 50 marines in 25 seconds, your reactive construction is considerably delayed compared to warp-in. This means it is more efficient to simply constantly manufacture out of a smaller number of structures.
With warp gate, you could quite reasonably mass warp gate and use much larger, but much longer-phase production cycles, with custom warp-ins in various locations. This lets you warp in exactly the right number of units with a warp prism, be that two or 20. This lets you build exactly the right number of units to hold a push, seconds after you see it coming to kill you. This tailoring is what gets you the extra money to expand everywhere, and the fact that you are focusing on minerals and far less gas. However as long as you're good about scouting, you can ensure you're never so far behind on army that a solid warp-in round won't turn the battle in your favor should the enemy attack. You're completely safe, despite an insane amount of expanding and weakened army.
On January 06 2012 02:54 GomJabbar wrote: Probably should have actually finished your guide before posting it. I don't know why you posted it with at least half of it "coming soon" and only a video and some barebones overview about the strategy without any real specifics. It sounds like a very interesting strategy, no doubt, but don't post it without actually having replays, timings and details you can write about. Get those things, prepare your guide, edit it, THEN post the finished product.
My guide as such is done. Replays are only illustrations (and I will add replays as soon as I get them for people who are uncapable of thinking abstractly). Timings vary from game to game and you should be able to calculate these yourself and if not RTS is probably not your game (that said, I will post guidelines about timings when I have time).
On January 06 2012 10:51 ledarsi wrote: This is, in my opinion, the Moneyball of Starcraft 2 Protoss PvT- for Wings of Liberty anyway. Now that someone has actually figured out how to correctly maximize the power of the warp gate tech and many bases with mass zealot- well, every other PvT style is a dinosaur.
I doubt you even read the book Moneyball (maybe you watched the movie) given how asinine the rest of your post was.
Every extra gateway you build beyond the number of gateways you need to spend money at the rate you're collecting it takes away from your army size. There are reasons to build extra gateways (they allow you to warp in between cooldown cycles, and when maxed out they allow you to rebuild huge amounts of supply almost instantly), but no matter how much drivel you write about things being front-loaded or back-loaded you really can't violate simple mathematics, building extra gates cuts into your army size at any time before you are maxed.
All of the 'virtual units' you are talking about cost real money, except that you already spent that real money building the gateway in the first place. Oops!
e: this isn't a commentary on the strategy, just the assertions of this particular poster that this is some magic bullet solution to PvT.
Very interesting guide, cannot wait to try it out! This guy is a beast with all three races, just watched him defend a 6pool like it was nothing, and then proceed destroy the zerg!
On January 07 2012 13:28 SEEDaurora wrote: Very interesting guide, cannot wait to try it out! This guy is a beast with all three races, just watched him defend a 6pool like it was nothing, and then proceed destroy the zerg!
haha, thanks ♥ You're probably thinking about my PvZ vs Alastor on Metalopolis I just played? That game really proves my point about how useless ladder is. Alastor is rank 57 gm on EU, but plays like shit. Such waste of time to play noobs like him. Here's a link to replay to prove I'm not just talking shit:
^You shouldn't really be proud of that game. If the zerg hadn't gone for zergling roach aggression and had just gotten lair he would have had overseers when DTs came out, been up 10 workers, and been up 30 supply.
On January 07 2012 16:05 Jadoreoov wrote: ^You shouldn't really be proud of that game. If the zerg hadn't gone for zergling roach aggression and had just gotten lair he would have had overseers when DTs came out, been up 10 workers, and been up 30 supply.
Making only but zealots when you're behind is really good too. I had 14 probes vs 31 scv's after an all-in, even though terran became overconfident and didn't play as well as he could have, i managed to win the game by getting charge asap and making only zealots. (Mid- masters)
Edit : Forgot to mention that this post were directed to those who critize that build
Obviously gateways cost money, and you are spending money on gateways that could be army if you have idle gates. However this is totally not a problem.
This style of playing protoss is actually a little bit like how zerg players make the minimum number of units and dedicate their production to drones (and hatcheries) whenever possible. However protoss' worker production has a bottleneck- the Nexus only builds one at a time. So instead of choosing between drones and units, you choose between units and gateways (and Nexuses if you need neither). If you need units to avoid being killed, obviously make units. If you can live with what you have, then make gateways. If you have enough units and gates (counting up warp gates as virtual units) then expand.
On January 08 2012 03:58 pakman wrote: whats the ideal probe count with your style? im assuming above avg ~75
This is an excellent question Im going to include in my guide. Basically it depends on how much effective trading you are able to do (aka how well Terran defends warp prism harass + how spread out Terran is + if Terran has Orbitals or PFs). Generally I would advice between 75-100.
On January 08 2012 03:56 ledarsi wrote: Obviously gateways cost money, and you are spending money on gateways that could be army if you have idle gates. However this is totally not a problem.
This style of playing protoss is actually a little bit like how zerg players make the minimum number of units and dedicate their production to drones (and hatcheries) whenever possible. However protoss' worker production has a bottleneck- the Nexus only builds one at a time. So instead of choosing between drones and units, you choose between units and gateways (and Nexuses if you need neither). If you need units to avoid being killed, obviously make units. If you can live with what you have, then make gateways. If you have enough units and gates (counting up warp gates as virtual units) then expand.
On January 08 2012 08:18 NB wrote: Watched the FPV vod and i like it... it surprised me how much gas u got out of 2 geyser.
Im wondering how this build turn out vs ghost? also how do you handle multiple drops? just counter attack and base trade?
I uploaded replays from which you should get a good idea of how to deal with drops, but basically 2-4 seemingly random cannons when your game sense tells you it's time. These help zone medivacs and support the Zealots you warp in. Once you get Charge, drops shouldnt be a problem as long as your game sense and map awareness is good. But with this style, you're happy if Terran drops you because this means your own drops are more likely to do more damage. Actually you want Terran to drop you and thus splitting up his army more.
@ ghosts: you mean smth like gasless FE into 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1 reactor) 2 ghost timing?
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
Yes, becaues my warp prism harass relies 100 percent on not being scouted ... herp-derp. Would you mind not posting stupid questions like these in this thread?
Edit: I wouldnt have minded the "stupid" question if only you had been less of a douchebag.
On January 08 2012 09:10 Lifan wrote: How do you deal with 1-1-1 with scv pull with only a few sentries, and minimal zealots, even if you have a lot of warp gates?
Against 1-1-1 (of which there are so many variations) 3g Immortal Phoenix is my go-to solution. I feel 5g Immortal loses if Terran is smart and just sits back and builds up absurd Banshee/marine count.
On January 08 2012 09:10 Lifan wrote: How do you deal with 1-1-1 with scv pull with only a few sentries, and minimal zealots, even if you have a lot of warp gates?
Against 1-1-1 (of which there are so many variations) 3g Immortal Phoenix is my go-to solution. I feel 5g Immortal loses if Terran is smart and just sits back and builds up absurd Banshee/marine count.
5g Immortal is safer in my opinion, because you can tech to colossus behind it when you see the push doesn't come at the standard timing. In case he does decide to attack before you can get at least 1 colossus out just cancel the robo bay. Investing in the robo bay doesn't make you lose the game when you are forced to cancel it and it can win you the game against a delayed 1/1/1 push. Also I would not recommend going for more immortals when you have like 4-5 and the robo bay already started but instead to add more gateways. Nice guide btw, really like the idea behind it.
the problem i have with that style is the following things:
a) maps with lots of chokes and little space b) air-heavy 1-1-1 builds with raven and cloaked banshees (your 3gate immortal phoenix option can work, but its very vulnerable to marine heavy 1-1-1ns) c) sensor towers and d) lategame in general - you cannot deal with a well developed bio-force with pure zealots and some sentrys. Some kind of transition please, mister!
and an advice: wouldnt it be great to add DTs to increase the harass options in late-midgame?
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
I'm a zerg player who uses frequent zergling drops against terran, and when they build sensor towers, I just fly empty overlords in and out of it all the time, and occasionally do a real drop amidst a whole bunch of fake drops. I imagine you could do the same as protoss. Usually I pull the overlords into range of the sensor towers, and he scans. Congratulations you saw the overlords, but can't tell if they are full or empty! Flip a coin!
Would hallucinations be picked up by a sensor tower?
Um, replays are not pvt? Are there any replays of this?
Seems like massive troll atm, which is a shame, because I would REALLY like to see more zealot/drop centric play tvt. maybe we need a separate discussion thread to avoid the flame war this has turned into.
On January 08 2012 10:00 KalWarkov wrote: the problem i have with that style is the following things:
a) maps with lots of chokes and little space b) air-heavy 1-1-1 builds with raven and cloaked banshees (your 3gate immortal phoenix option can work, but its very vulnerable to marine heavy 1-1-1ns) c) sensor towers and d) lategame in general - you cannot deal with a well developed bio-force with pure zealots and some sentrys. Some kind of transition please, mister!
and an advice: wouldnt it be great to add DTs to increase the harass options in late-midgame?
nice approach though, i like the idea.
a) you dont have to do it on any map b) it's perfectly fine to transition whenever you like c) the mere threat of warp ins with warp prism + the investment of sensor towers d) as I said, you are free to transition whenever you like
On January 08 2012 10:08 quillian wrote: Um, replays are not pvt? Are there any replays of this?
Seems like massive troll atm, which is a shame, because I would REALLY like to see more zealot/drop centric play tvt. maybe we need a separate discussion thread to avoid the flame war this has turned into.
are you sure you looked under Replays of Zealots Zealots Everywhere?
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
I'm a zerg player who uses frequent zergling drops against terran, and when they build sensor towers, I just fly empty overlords in and out of it all the time, and occasionally do a real drop amidst a whole bunch of fake drops. I imagine you could do the same as protoss. Usually I pull the overlords into range of the sensor towers, and he scans. Congratulations you saw the overlords, but can't tell if they are full or empty! Flip a coin!
Would hallucinations be picked up by a sensor tower?
On January 08 2012 10:08 quillian wrote: Um, replays are not pvt? Are there any replays of this?
Seems like massive troll atm, which is a shame, because I would REALLY like to see more zealot/drop centric play tvt. maybe we need a separate discussion thread to avoid the flame war this has turned into.
You can watch the fpvod that he linked, which is PvT and it seems to work really well tbh. I feel the main problem is that you need forcefields for every engagement you have otherwise he can kite forever, if he snipes your sentries its difficult, and also if he just evades forcefields its easy for him to have map control maybe.
But tbh good and innovative idea and I'll definitely use aspects of this in my own PvT, thx a lot. : )
I watched the vod a week ago. It's 1 game, though, and not a very good one. He doesn't even get to the point of saturating most of the bases he put down.
The other replays he uploaded are not even pvt. I'm not sure why they are even here. I agree it's a cool idea, but there's no real substance here yet...
I think we need a wider discussion and more replays on two topics: 1. Viability of mass zealots in pvt. 2. Viability of building gateways instead of army.
both interesting. love to see replays and comments from masters players on these ideas.
On January 08 2012 10:47 quillian wrote: I watched the vod a week ago. It's 1 game, though, and not a very good one. He doesn't even get to the point of saturating most of the bases he put down.
The other replays he uploaded are not even pvt. I'm not sure why they are even here. I agree it's a cool idea, but there's no real substance here yet...
I think we need a wider discussion and more replays on two topics: 1. Viability of mass zealots in pvt. 2. Viability of building gateways instead of army.
both interesting. love to see replays and comments from masters players on these ideas.
Do you realize how worthless and bad your post is? Please go troll, somewhere else.
On January 08 2012 09:10 Lifan wrote: How do you deal with 1-1-1 with scv pull with only a few sentries, and minimal zealots, even if you have a lot of warp gates?
actually, he does defend against one in one of his vods (i dont remember which one, but its in one of the recent one). I watched that in his VODs two days ago, and he made a stargate to make phoenixes and immortals from the robo, while making zealots from the gateways, with something like 4 sentries. I dont remember exactly all the details, but it's something along the lines of that.
Okay, seriously. AoWıııııııı or whatever your name is... This guide... ugh this guide is exactly what is wrong with Starcraft 2 okay!?! You FUCKING PROTOSS player alraeady have it FACKING EASY warping in your FUCKING SHIT in front our terran base getting rid of all defender advantage, and then HERP DERP 1a chronoboost cheap upgrades colossus huhuhu tech switch HTstorm hahahahahahshawarmahaliurlgsuhgl in to win. While we terrans have to kite your motherfucking charge imba zealots react change tech make vikingsbunkersghostsmultidropempattack thousand apm.
now you make this fucking guide about how to abuse something that is already fucking broken!? make 20 charge zealots on the same time 1a &* sit back read your fucking book and watch it win while i stutter step stutter step stutter step stutter step stutter step stutter step and still FACKING DIE!
i been getting this camelshit on ladder now all day and it's all your fault. you think you good!? i shit on this guide.
OT: I think this is a really good idea, also a bit extrem but thats the way new strategies should be (see spanishiwa) cause it will make people talk about it and maybe even pros picking it up and fighting a good "middle ground".
Anyways, cheers and thanks for taking the time to write it out!
On January 08 2012 19:04 aderum wrote: Sigh at the post above me.
OT: I think this is a really good idea, also a bit extrem but thats the way new strategies should be (see spanishiwa) cause it will make people talk about it and maybe even pros picking it up and fighting a good "middle ground".
Anyways, cheers and thanks for taking the time to write it out!
I recommend the 20+ min replay which was recently uploaded, the chat log includes some suggestions from the terran. The other games are terrible, ending within 7 minutes after a handful of marines die, not sure what happened there. Too many trolls on this thread for what is admittedly a v interesting approach to PvT, I'm a little worried about surviving the first medvac + stim pushes, but in the replay mentioned he holds off a stim + ghost timing push, would love to see more of this.
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
Yes, becaues my warp prism harass relies 100 percent on not being scouted ... herp-derp. Would you mind not posting stupid questions like these in this thread?
Edit: I wouldnt have minded the "stupid" question if only you had been less of a douchebag.
This was a legitimate question 100%, did not mean it to be stupid.
Why call me a douchebag for? Why not just calm the fuck down? I just wanted to ask a question, and that is all. I guess I know why many people in this thread think you are just trolling.
When will you be a GSL champion? I will be waiting for you
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
Yes, becaues my warp prism harass relies 100 percent on not being scouted ... herp-derp. Would you mind not posting stupid questions like these in this thread?
Edit: I wouldnt have minded the "stupid" question if only you had been less of a douchebag.
This was a legitimate question 100%, did not mean it to be stupid.
Why call me a douchebag for? Why not just calm the fuck down? I just wanted to ask a question, and that is all. I guess I know why many people in this thread think you are just trolling.
When will you be a GSL champion? I will be waiting for you
You were acting like a douchebag in your last post, and so are you in this one. Work on your attitude, and one day, someone will maybe love you. ♥
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
Yes, becaues my warp prism harass relies 100 percent on not being scouted ... herp-derp. Would you mind not posting stupid questions like these in this thread?
Edit: I wouldnt have minded the "stupid" question if only you had been less of a douchebag.
This was a legitimate question 100%, did not mean it to be stupid.
Why call me a douchebag for? Why not just calm the fuck down? I just wanted to ask a question, and that is all. I guess I know why many people in this thread think you are just trolling.
When will you be a GSL champion? I will be waiting for you
You were acting like a douchebag in your last post, and so are you in this one. Work on your attitude, and one day, someone will maybe love you. ♥
Which post?
And in this one I am being a douchebag?
I hope one day you can learn to differentiate between a serious question and a troll question.
I think my attitude is ok, thank you very much. And I already have friends, thank you very much.
Maybe you should improve your attitude. Otherwise, you wouldn't be getting so much hate in this thread, amirite?
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
Yes, becaues my warp prism harass relies 100 percent on not being scouted ... herp-derp. Would you mind not posting stupid questions like these in this thread?
Edit: I wouldnt have minded the "stupid" question if only you had been less of a douchebag.
This was a legitimate question 100%, did not mean it to be stupid.
Why call me a douchebag for? Why not just calm the fuck down? I just wanted to ask a question, and that is all. I guess I know why many people in this thread think you are just trolling.
When will you be a GSL champion? I will be waiting for you
You were acting like a douchebag in your last post, and so are you in this one. Work on your attitude, and one day, someone will maybe love you. ♥
Which post?
And in this one I am being a douchebag?
I hope one day you can learn to differentiate between a serious question and a troll question.
I think my attitude is ok, thank you very much. And I already have friends, thank you very much.
Maybe you should improve your attitude. Otherwise, you wouldn't be getting so much hate in this thread, amirite?
You're cute when you try to be tough on the interwebz ♥
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
Yes, becaues my warp prism harass relies 100 percent on not being scouted ... herp-derp. Would you mind not posting stupid questions like these in this thread?
Edit: I wouldnt have minded the "stupid" question if only you had been less of a douchebag.
This was a legitimate question 100%, did not mean it to be stupid.
Why call me a douchebag for? Why not just calm the fuck down? I just wanted to ask a question, and that is all. I guess I know why many people in this thread think you are just trolling.
When will you be a GSL champion? I will be waiting for you
You were acting like a douchebag in your last post, and so are you in this one. Work on your attitude, and one day, someone will maybe love you. ♥
Which post?
And in this one I am being a douchebag?
I hope one day you can learn to differentiate between a serious question and a troll question.
I think my attitude is ok, thank you very much. And I already have friends, thank you very much.
Maybe you should improve your attitude. Otherwise, you wouldn't be getting so much hate in this thread, amirite?
You're cute when you try to be tough on the interwebz ♥
Thanks
By the way.....using all that cute heart symbols aint gonna make you "cool" bro...just talk normally
On January 08 2012 18:54 musalm wrote: Okay, seriously. AoWıııııııı or whatever your name is... This guide... ugh this guide is exactly what is wrong with Starcraft 2 okay!?! You FUCKING PROTOSS player alraeady have it FACKING EASY warping in your FUCKING SHIT in front our terran base getting rid of all defender advantage, and then HERP DERP 1a chronoboost cheap upgrades colossus huhuhu tech switch HTstorm hahahahahahshawarmahaliurlgsuhgl in to win. While we terrans have to kite your motherfucking charge imba zealots react change tech make vikingsbunkersghostsmultidropempattack thousand apm.
now you make this fucking guide about how to abuse something that is already fucking broken!? make 20 charge zealots on the same time 1a &* sit back read your fucking book and watch it win while i stutter step stutter step stutter step stutter step stutter step stutter step and still FACKING DIE!
i been getting this camelshit on ladder now all day and it's all your fault. you think you good!? i shit on this guide.
On January 06 2012 18:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Do you have anymore replays?
Won't properly placed sensor towers nullify the WP harass?
Still waiting for this
Yes, becaues my warp prism harass relies 100 percent on not being scouted ... herp-derp. Would you mind not posting stupid questions like these in this thread?
Edit: I wouldnt have minded the "stupid" question if only you had been less of a douchebag.
This was a legitimate question 100%, did not mean it to be stupid.
Why call me a douchebag for? Why not just calm the fuck down? I just wanted to ask a question, and that is all. I guess I know why many people in this thread think you are just trolling.
When will you be a GSL champion? I will be waiting for you
You were acting like a douchebag in your last post, and so are you in this one. Work on your attitude, and one day, someone will maybe love you. ♥
Which post?
And in this one I am being a douchebag?
I hope one day you can learn to differentiate between a serious question and a troll question.
I think my attitude is ok, thank you very much. And I already have friends, thank you very much.
Maybe you should improve your attitude. Otherwise, you wouldn't be getting so much hate in this thread, amirite?
You're cute when you try to be tough on the interwebz ♥
Thanks
By the way.....using all that cute heart symbols aint gonna make you "cool" bro...just talk normally
What if expressing my thoughts with hearts is normal for me? ♥
No guide creator has ever answered like that to someone who posted a question, plus the fact that the question I asked was a serious question, like I already said.
On January 08 2012 22:46 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: No guide creator has ever answered like that to someone who posted a question, plus the fact that the question I asked was a serious question, like I already said.
Just shows how much of a troll you are
Thanks for sharing your opinion. Please realize I couldnt care less about what you think. This was just meant as a source of inspiration for Protosses. If you dont like it, feel free to ignore it. But I must say, I do not understand your obsession with posting shit posts in this guide.
You are welcome. I couldnt care less if this is a guide or not, but never before has a topic creator been so rude to me where I was only trying to ask a simple question. If you just answer normally, none of this would have happened.
Why be so rude for? Seriously? Now I understand why everyone seems to think you are a troll
On January 08 2012 23:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: You are welcome. I couldnt care less if this is a guide or not, but never before has a topic creator been so rude to me where I was only trying to ask a simple question. If you just answer normally, none of this would have happened.
Why be so rude for? Seriously? Now I understand why everyone seems to think you are a troll
Got picked apart horribly by drops, although Real was playing super super greedy going robo, twilight, and double forge.
Please read what I wrote. This is not a build.
More style of play then. I agree it's pretty strong to be relying heavily on zealots to take a lot of expansions, I've also seen White-Ra go for this style of play (super fast 3rd backed by chargelot). It's exploitable by drops though, and by Terrans getting good positioning on their troops (one game the Terran playing White-Ra ran his bio into the small area around the mineral line of White-Ra's 3rd and so the zlots had no surface area, resulting in White-Ra ragequitting with some balance whine comment too). I see you wrote that it's important for Toss to get good positioning but Terran can control too, and in a choke without storm or collusi, stimmed medivac bio (standard 10minute timing) can be really really hard to deal with. I agree with the style up to taking a quick 3rd (~5 minutes) but after that I think you want to pick a tech path and go down it. Cannons won't deal with drops against unless you ring your base with cannons so you need stalker warpins and without blink you'll never kill the dropship. On the other hand, you need charge for any fight. So maybe get charge quickly and then blink, then start double forge? You can cut probe production once you're at about 60 when you see the Terran on 2 base, and you'll have 3 base worth of gas. I'd disagree with going double forge so fast because you'll have 1/1 but without charge your zlots will never hit anything and without blink your stalkers will never hit anything either.
On January 08 2012 23:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: You are welcome. I couldnt care less if this is a guide or not, but never before has a topic creator been so rude to me where I was only trying to ask a simple question. If you just answer normally, none of this would have happened.
Why be so rude for? Seriously? Now I understand why everyone seems to think you are a troll
I give up. You are out of reach.
Uhm, I looked up all of DontLoseSightOfIt in this guide and he didn't post anything douchy, he just asked a question and then you called him a douche? In what way is asking if sensor towers wouldn't nullify this build douchy?
Before that I just though you liked sounding a bit douchy because it was fun, but now it simply seems that your socially incapable as you seemingly cannot spot the difference between someone asking an honest question and someone being a douche.
Oh well, I still like the guide, but I think it would help you if you opened your eyes and actually did read what you and others have posted. It might help you not coming of as an total douchebag to people who've seemingly done nothing to deserve that treatment.
On January 08 2012 23:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: You are welcome. I couldnt care less if this is a guide or not, but never before has a topic creator been so rude to me where I was only trying to ask a simple question. If you just answer normally, none of this would have happened.
Why be so rude for? Seriously? Now I understand why everyone seems to think you are a troll
I give up. You are out of reach.
Uhm, I looked up all of DontLoseSightOfIt in this guide and he didn't post anything douchy, he just asked a question and then you called him a douche? In what way is asking if sensor towers wouldn't nullify this build douchy?
Before that I just though you liked sounding a bit douchy because it was fun, but now it simply seems that your socially incapable as you seemingly cannot spot the difference between someone asking an honest question and someone being a douche.
Oh well, I still like the guide, but I think it would help you if you opened your eyes and actually did read what you and others have posted. It might help you not coming of as an total douchebag to people who've seemingly done nothing to deserve that treatment.
I fully agree on this, you (OP) have a great idea and this could be such an awesome thread for discussion if only you wouldn´t act like a total asshole to anyone just because they aren´t sticking their noses up yours. You seem to act thankful to anyone that simply drops a "wow looks amazing", but when someone critizes your idea you reply only with trashtalk and aggression.
I´m not saying this because I just wanna let you know my thoughts, but simply because that your immature behavior has the potential of ruining this thread´s discussion. If you wanna reply like a jerk, so be it.
Oh dear, you really used this replay of me losing with 3 rax against double nexus. I am so ashamed right now. I played some games against AoWLuxus yesterday and he is a really good player and a nice guy. Yes, this guide can use some improvement but you can still get the general idea which should be really helpful for a lot of Protoss players.
On January 08 2012 23:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: You are welcome. I couldnt care less if this is a guide or not, but never before has a topic creator been so rude to me where I was only trying to ask a simple question. If you just answer normally, none of this would have happened.
Why be so rude for? Seriously? Now I understand why everyone seems to think you are a troll
I give up. You are out of reach.
Uhm, I looked up all of DontLoseSightOfIt in this guide and he didn't post anything douchy, he just asked a question and then you called him a douche? In what way is asking if sensor towers wouldn't nullify this build douchy?
Before that I just though you liked sounding a bit douchy because it was fun, but now it simply seems that your socially incapable as you seemingly cannot spot the difference between someone asking an honest question and someone being a douche.
Oh well, I still like the guide, but I think it would help you if you opened your eyes and actually did read what you and others have posted. It might help you not coming of as an total douchebag to people who've seemingly done nothing to deserve that treatment.
I fully agree on this, you (OP) have a great idea and this could be such an awesome thread for discussion if only you wouldn´t act like a total asshole to anyone just because they aren´t sticking their noses up yours. You seem to act thankful to anyone that simply drops a "wow looks amazing", but when someone critizes your idea you reply only with trashtalk and aggression.
I´m not saying this because I just wanna let you know my thoughts, but simply because that your immature behavior has the potential of ruining this thread´s discussion. If you wanna reply like a jerk, so be it.
I didnt write this guide to discuss. I wrote it to inspire people to abuse Zealots. That is all. If someone wishes to discuss, please make another thread.
On January 08 2012 23:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: You are welcome. I couldnt care less if this is a guide or not, but never before has a topic creator been so rude to me where I was only trying to ask a simple question. If you just answer normally, none of this would have happened.
Why be so rude for? Seriously? Now I understand why everyone seems to think you are a troll
I give up. You are out of reach.
Uhm, I looked up all of DontLoseSightOfIt in this guide and he didn't post anything douchy, he just asked a question and then you called him a douche? In what way is asking if sensor towers wouldn't nullify this build douchy?
Before that I just though you liked sounding a bit douchy because it was fun, but now it simply seems that your socially incapable as you seemingly cannot spot the difference between someone asking an honest question and someone being a douche.
Oh well, I still like the guide, but I think it would help you if you opened your eyes and actually did read what you and others have posted. It might help you not coming of as an total douchebag to people who've seemingly done nothing to deserve that treatment.
I fully agree on this, you (OP) have a great idea and this could be such an awesome thread for discussion if only you wouldn´t act like a total asshole to anyone just because they aren´t sticking their noses up yours. You seem to act thankful to anyone that simply drops a "wow looks amazing", but when someone critizes your idea you reply only with trashtalk and aggression.
I´m not saying this because I just wanna let you know my thoughts, but simply because that your immature behavior has the potential of ruining this thread´s discussion. If you wanna reply like a jerk, so be it.
I didnt write this guide to discuss. I wrote it to inspire people to abuse Zealots. That is all. If someone wishes to discuss, please make another thread.
This is the strategy forum, it's made so that people can present new strategies, but also so that those can be discussed. So not wanting to discuss when you do a topic here is quite confusing, if you ask me. Also I doubt the TL mods would want two topics on your strategy just so that yours didn't have any discussion, because there is really no reason for the discussion not being in your thread. Either way, the fact that you don't want to discuss doesn't mean you have to be a douche to those who wants to do that, you can just decide to not discuss and let others answer questions and so on.
On January 09 2012 10:40 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Thank you for the help, Theovide and Harmonized.
Maybe Sensor tower is the build's weakness and therefore he doesn't like someone exploiting it
Heh, if I shall be totally honest I don't think Sensor towers are that super good. They are good to be able to preemptively deal with single drop harasses that are possibly done together with a main army push. But if someone is dropping/running all over the place (ie major multitasking) they wont help that much. Obviously though against any heavy harass style except maybe air, non drop, ones (because turrets are way better then, and no need to have sensor towers if you anyway have stationary defense everywhere they can come) sensor towers are good.
Also, looking at the only the vod, he didn't seem to be doing any drops or likewise at all, just straight up army vs army, which zealots are really good at aswell though.
EPT
