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On January 03 2012 21:21 xtruder wrote:
Sounds like an early reaper will destroy this build. How do you deal with a reaper without suffering relatively huge losses in the beginning?
If you are paranoid about reapers getting 10 kills open with a stalker. This guide clearly focuses on the midgame, any discussion of early game is obviously for the sake of explaining how you transition into the midgame.
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On January 03 2012 21:30 Markwerf wrote:
Annoying tone to read and many of the parts in the guide just suck.
Playing pure sentry, zealot at start sucks. Sentries suck against pressure before you can make full FF walls with them which usually requires at least 3 FF's. To hold off standard 2 rax pressure for example you're best off using no sentries at all and using a 2 to 1 mix of stalker:zealot.
Please watch the FPVOD. There is a game where I utterly demolish 2 rax pressure.
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I want to know more about the double nexus opening 
Other than that, as it is the guide can basically be summed up as : get 3 bases on 2 geysers and try to survive until you get an economic lead ? Waiting until it is done to comment further.
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On January 03 2012 22:02 Geiko wrote:I want to know more about the double nexus opening Other than that, as it is the guide can basically be summed up as : get 3 bases on 2 geysers and try to survive until you get an economic lead ? Waiting until it is done to comment further.
3 bases? More like 5 bases @ 13 min :D The synenergy of Zealots Zealots Everywhere is this: by staying on 2 Assimilators for so long, you can expand like crazy while adding gateways like crazy. More expands ---> being able to pressure more --> being able to expand more ---> and so on. The key to making Zealots able to do this is upgrades & Warp Prisms.
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After watching the vod I think you should really emphasize more heavily on your expansion timings in your guide lol. You had 5base at the 13min mark o.o
Yea you said to expand often to afford more zealots/gateways but I didn't think you'd take your 3rd base ~7min and 4th base right after followed by a 5th before the 4th was even done lols
That said your build looks quite refined for what you've presented, but you need to put content into your guide first.
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On January 03 2012 22:10 Forbidden17 wrote:
After watching the vod I think you should really emphasize more heavily on your expansion timings in your guide lol. You had 5base at the 13min mark o.o
Yea you said to expand often to afford more zealots/gateways but I didn't think you'd take your 3rd base ~7min and 4th base right after followed by a 5th before the 4th was even done lols
That said your build looks quite refined for what you've presented, but you need to put content into your guide first.
This is a good point. When I wrote expand whenever feasible, I should probably mention how much expanding you can actually get away with while being quite safe. Thanks.
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Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech?
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On January 03 2012 22:19 Trusty wrote:
Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech?
What kind of mech and bio mech? 2 base marine tank? Please be more specific, but yes, in general, Zealots are amazing against mech.
Will probably be hard to find a replay against mech, though. It's rare on EU. But maybe I run into Rmdx on ladder or tournament, he plays mech-ish TvP sometimes.
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On January 03 2012 22:20 AoWLuXus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 22:19 Trusty wrote:
Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech? What kind of mech and bio mech? 2 base marine tank? Please be more specific, but yes, in general, Zealots are amazing against mech. Will probably be hard to find a replay against mech, though. It's rare on EU. But maybe I run into Rmdx on ladder or tournament, he plays mech-ish TvP sometimes.
There was a recent TvP post for Sky Mech Terran vs. Protoss. How would you adapt to hellion harrass, and the "philosophy" behind that strategy?
Also, I would love to hear more about these expansion timings, because my jaw dropped when you grabbed your 3rd (and 4th.. and 5TH?!) bases so early...
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On January 03 2012 22:32 Chicken Chaser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 22:20 AoWLuXus wrote:On January 03 2012 22:19 Trusty wrote:
Silly question, but do you continue with this style if you fight Mech or Bio Mech? What kind of mech and bio mech? 2 base marine tank? Please be more specific, but yes, in general, Zealots are amazing against mech. Will probably be hard to find a replay against mech, though. It's rare on EU. But maybe I run into Rmdx on ladder or tournament, he plays mech-ish TvP sometimes. There was a recent TvP post for Sky Mech Terran vs. Protoss. How would you adapt to hellion harrass, and the "philosophy" behind that strategy? Also, I would love to hear more about these expansion timings, because my jaw dropped when you grabbed your 3rd (and 4th.. and 5TH?!) bases so early...
As such, there are no exact expansion timings, but it's all about expanding as aggressively as possible which requires you to be able to read what you can get away with judged on the map, spawn positions, Terran's build, how the engagements in the game go, and so on and so forth.
Against Sky-mech, I would definitely add a relatively quick 3rd Assimilator and get Phoenixes to shut down Banshee and Hellion harass and I would transition into Zealot, Immortal, Archon and Phoenix (ratio dependant on Terran's composition) after securing my 4th and possibly my 5th depending on map and how aggressively Terran is going to push.
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Sounds a bit gimmicky, but a ton of fun to abuse 
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This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
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On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote:
This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM.
I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops.
However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge..
Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
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On January 03 2012 23:09 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote:
This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM. I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops. However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge.. Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
That was my concern too. No aoe for such a long time is asking for trouble vs terran bio past the ~120 supply mark.
I later disregarded that concern because while the unit composition seems flawed, the play style is sound. Zealots in small numbers destroy bio in equally small numbers, hence the reason you can rely on them to deal with drops. Utilizing warp prisms, harassing everywhere and forcing the terran to split his forces is the focus of this guide, not the fact that you're staying on zealot-sentry for basically the entire mid-game. If he pushes you before you get aoe out with his entire ball? Base trade him lol, you have 5 bases by 13mins.
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On January 03 2012 23:09 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote:
This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM. I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops. However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge.. Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too..
This is an excellent question, which my friend Yuffie also asked me. Im assuming you refer to smth like gasless FE into 3 rax 2 ghost timing attack? If that's the case, the trick is to spread your sentries (obviously :D) and to get a pylon behind where Terran will attack from so you can warp in zealots to flank. If you see it coming in time, it shouldnt be hard to defend ~~ or at least, I havent had trouble yet.
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I love the way the OP is so cost efficient with his armies. I'm a big fan of delayed gas builds (read Spanishiwa) since I think they flow into the late game better, but I'm a bit curious about the OP's insistence on sticking to 2 gases the whole game. Once you are well saturated on three or more bases, why not take 2-4 gases simultaneously? Mass templar could follow from this, and play a similar role to the sentries. The only things that could be troublesome are banshees and hellions, but with mass gates and stockpiled gas, stalkers are readily available. Question to the OP: In case of some 1/1/1 do you bother getting immortals at all?
PS: Please fill up the replay section and tweak up the guide, the basic ideas are v nice, they shouldn't be lost in editing.
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On January 03 2012 23:42 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 23:09 Nyast wrote:On January 03 2012 23:04 .Natsu wrote:
This is awesome. That's very similar to the way I play PvT. However instead of going for a robo, a fast fourth and a fast fifth, I get gasses 3 and 4 and always get pheonixes, archons and templars. I think what you do is a bit cheesy because if terran somehow scouts all those bases and drops them all simultuaneously, he is almost guaranteed to kill a lot of things. On the other hand - it's not like any sane terran would expect that many expos at once and most terrans on EU probably don't even have the skill to punish them all - so I guess it's fine - but I wouldn't be surprised if this mass expoing part of the strategy would not work in Korean GM. I don't think it can be punished via mass drops. Once he has charge, he can easily warp zealots at each expo and defend the drops. However I wonder how this compo fares against a ghost push. Negating sentry's energy and kitting zealots, even with charge.. Also, the problem is that usually, when a Terran had medivacs, the Protoss needs some form of splash damage to counter the bioball. But this build techs slowly ( besides upgrades ), so there must be some weak timing just after medivacs and before the Protoss has transitionned to something else.. especially if the Terran is religious with his upgrades too.. That was my concern too. No aoe for such a long time is asking for trouble vs terran bio past the ~120 supply mark. I later disregarded that concern because while the unit composition seems flawed, the play style is sound. Zealots in small numbers destroy bio in equally small numbers, hence the reason you can rely on them to deal with drops. Utilizing warp prisms, harassing everywhere and forcing the terran to split his forces is the focus of this guide, not the fact that you're staying on zealot-sentry for basically the entire mid-game. If he pushes you before you get aoe out with his entire ball? Base trade him lol, you have 5 bases by 13mins.
Exactly. Zealots, Zealots Everywhere is a mid-game approach to secure an absurd ammount of expansions early on through Zealot aggression.
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On January 03 2012 23:50 chestnutcc wrote:
I love the way the OP is so cost efficient with his armies. I'm a big fan of delayed gas builds (read Spanishiwa) since I think they flow into the late game better, but I'm a bit curious about the OP's insistence on sticking to 2 gases the whole game. Once you are well saturated on three or more bases, why not take 2-4 gases simultaneously? Mass templar could follow from this, and play a similar role to the sentries. The only things that could be troublesome are banshees and hellions, but with mass gates and stockpiled gas, stalkers are readily available. Question to the OP: In case of some 1/1/1 do you bother getting immortals at all?
PS: Please fill up the replay section and tweak up the guide, the basic ideas are v nice, they shouldn't be lost in editing.
Mass Zealot is just mid-game. Once I get 5 bases (usually around 13-15 min) and around 14-24 gateways, I usually start adding Storm and Colossi.
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What's stops Terran from doing the same? Terran is under no threat from Protoss and can contain with drop harass. Every time Protoss leaves the base, Terran drops. Meanwhile, Terran can expand just as much as Protoss. Terran will max out in 15 minutes, which gives you 2 minutes to tech to your aoe, which is prob not enough time.
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On January 04 2012 00:00 Micket wrote:
What's stops Terran from doing the same? Terran is under no threat from Protoss and can contain with drop harass. Every time Protoss leaves the base, Terran drops. Meanwhile, Terran can expand just as much as Protoss. Terran will max out in 15 minutes, which gives you 2 minutes to tech to your aoe, which is prob not enough time.
Im not even going to dignify this with an answer. I hope you are trolling.
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EPT
