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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
Of course I'm just theory crafting, but that's really all the build allows us to do at this point with no details -.-"" Don't get me wrong, the idea is kinda interesting, but I'm just posting in the hope that the OP will get updated to an actual guide status. I suppose we could treat it as a [D] instead though. | ||
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AoWLuXus
Korea (South)109 Posts
On January 04 2012 00:08 caradoc wrote: Aside from the fact that I think the OP needs to be updated before we really discuss this more (theres not too much meat to discuss here aside from a 'philosophy' of using zealots more in the midgame, which is still interesting), not having stalkers or any dedicated anti air seems to allow terran to build up their medivac count (or banshees/vikings if they like) without being checked at all. You're basically just trading zealots for marines/marauders, and with no gas, you'll be behind in tech while terran masses up a better composition. You won't be able to attack into a narrow choke with good terran building/bunker placement, and any tech transition you do will be comparatively weaker since terran will likely already have ghosts/vikings out by that point. Of course I'm just theory crafting, but that's really all the build allows us to do at this point with no details -.-"" Don't get me wrong, the idea is kinda interesting, but I'm just posting in the hope that the OP will get updated to an actual guide status. I suppose we could treat it as a [D] instead though. This is a guide of an approach to PvT mid-game. This is not a guide of a build. That said, you raise interesting questions which I have thought about before-hand and was planning to go into detail with. I'm working on it! Havent written anything since college, so it's taking a while to figure out how I want to present my ideas. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On January 04 2012 00:16 AoWLuXus wrote: This is a guide of an approach to PvT mid-game. This is not a guide of a build. That said, you raise interesting questions which I have thought about before-hand and was planning to go into detail with. I'm working on it! Havent written anything since college, so it's taking a while to figure out how I want to present my ideas. Hence why timings/transitions/details are important :D | ||
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AoWLuXus
Korea (South)109 Posts
On January 04 2012 00:26 caradoc wrote: Hence why timings/transitions/details are important :D Not really. Timings present themselves as such. They vary from game to game. But I will include guidelines about timings and transitions when I update which Im going to asap to help out people who are struggling with that aspect. | ||
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matrius
100 Posts
I was actually thinking of moving to zealot, archon, phoenix, and forgetting about stalkers entirely, but going to try this out instead... One question - what use are stalkers then? This might seem like a dumb question, but I'm realizing that how one spends his gas is one of the critical questions to the game, and stalkers take quite a bit of gas... | ||
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AoWLuXus
Korea (South)109 Posts
On January 04 2012 00:49 matrius wrote: Wow, this style looks incredible to me. I have been losing majority of PvT, and I think its because of lack of use of sentries, and too many stalkers, and lack of economy (not knowing when to expand, etc). Your VOD has inspired me to try this out! It looks to me like the trick is good forcefields, and then retreating as they kite, and then do FF again. You made it look easy, not sure I'll have the same success, but I'll try... I was actually thinking of moving to zealot, archon, phoenix, and forgetting about stalkers entirely, but going to try this out instead... One question - what use are stalkers then? This might seem like a dumb question, but I'm realizing that how one spends his gas is one of the critical questions to the game, and stalkers take quite a bit of gas... good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding! | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On January 04 2012 00:58 AoWLuXus wrote: good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding! You're saying you played a couple thousand pvts using this style and you can't share anything about it, nor give replays, nor fill in any details at all? Sorry, but this is starting to sound more and more like hand-waving and fairy tales. | ||
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AoWLuXus
Korea (South)109 Posts
On January 04 2012 01:10 caradoc wrote: You're saying you played a couple thousand pvts using this style and you can't share anything about it, nor give replays, nor fill in any details at all? Sorry, but this is starting to sound more and more like hand-waving and fairy tales. Im not arrogant enough to claim I have perfect timings. And dude, patience. I'm updating the guide as soon as I can, in between Starcraft II practice. But thanks for all your constructive comments, bro! Really appreciated! | ||
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matrius
100 Posts
I must say I'm a bit confused/thrown off by your approach, but still going to give it a whirl. I'm going to try the following, to make it simpler for my little brain: 1) get only zealots/sentries unless banshees around, then get a few stalkers 2) double forge, go to 4 bases, around 15 gateways 3) then get 6 gas and go for templar & archon Could I bother you for a few more questions? I'll try and not ask you any more questions until I try it out... 1) when do I go for a 200 army? just use observers to stay close to my opponents population? I guess I'm worried I'm going to make too many gateways and not have enough army to hold off MMM, which till now has melted any non-colossi army I've attempted. 2) when should I ever make immortals, as chargelots typically do well vs mech? 3) is your VOD indicative of what a typical MMM opponent does and how you play (or was it a best case scenario)? On January 04 2012 00:58 AoWLuXus wrote: good luck, man. As for stalkers, they are needed for light banshee harassment. But a good rule of thump is: never warp in zealots or stalkers unless they serve a specific purpose (like harassing, or defending banshee harass or defending timing attack). Spend money on Nexii and Gateways instead whenever possible. Probably takes a couple of thousands games to get a feeling of the timings, though. Happy grinding! | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
Organization of guide is a little overboard, with more spoilers than content, however. I would like to see some replays and discussion of this topic, and an exploration of ideal charge timing, how to defend various all-ins while teching to warp prism charge, etc. Has anyone else experimented/had success with charge centric play? | ||
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AoWLuXus
Korea (South)109 Posts
On January 04 2012 01:41 matrius wrote: Thanks for the reply luxus! I must say I'm a bit confused/thrown off by your approach, but still going to give it a whirl. I'm going to try the following, to make it simpler for my little brain: 1) get only zealots/sentries unless banshees around, then get a few stalkers 2) double forge, go to 4 bases, around 15 gateways 3) then get 6 gas and go for templar & archon Could I bother you for a few more questions? I'll try and not ask you any more questions until I try it out... 1) when do I go for a 200 army? just use observers to stay close to my opponents population? I guess I'm worried I'm going to make too many gateways and not have enough army to hold off MMM, which till now has melted any non-colossi army I've attempted. 2) when should I ever make immortals, as chargelots typically do well vs mech? 3) is your VOD indicative of what a typical MMM opponent does and how you play (or was it a best case scenario)? 1) yeah, pretty much 2) as a rule of thump (unless you're being all'in'ed or otherwise forced to adapt), double Forge before 4th Gateway, 3rd 4th 5th whenever you think it's safe based on the scouting ~~ you can experiment with this, but I can assure you that you will be surprised at how much expanding you can get away with 3) yeah, I think templar is the best way to transition in most cases, but usually I wait for around 24 gateways to transition unless circumstances dictate otherwise 1) Zealots do best in small numbers, so you want to be seeking favorable or even engagements at all times (esp with Warp Prisms), about the over-making of gateways, it's really just a question of experience ~~ the more you play, the better a feel you get for judging what you can get away with, so my advice is you should experiment :D 2) against heavy, heavy hellion play, I think it's wise to mix in Immortals 3) the guy in the VOD was only high master so doesnt really mean anything, but yes this is what a typical MMM opponent does ~~ and yes I think 1g FE is free win vs 2 rax so I guess it's best case scenario | ||
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babybell
776 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On January 03 2012 21:41 AoWLuXus wrote: Please watch the FPVOD. There is a game where I utterly demolish 2 rax pressure. I did and I don't know what terran was doing but that was not a proper 2 rax push... In the VOD terran hits with only 2 marauder 6 marines after your slow expo already finished.. A proper 2 rax hits much earlier, way before your expo would finish and actually before gate 2# and #3 in your build would finish to. Pure zealot/sentry simply can't expand as quickly as zealot/stalker and therefore it is not optimal to start with imo: - you need 2 gas fast and a critical amount of FF's available to stop marauder/marine pressure. At least 3 ff's to form a small FF wall but if terran is splitting up a bit that actually won't be enough. - reapers get much more dangerous - you can't kill their scout nor do you have a good map control unit because of no early stalker. The entire gameplan based on mass zealots is fine but you need to open with some stalkers. You need some stalkers later anyway to fire at medivacs so no problem in getting a few. Defending mass expansion with PURE zealot/sentry will simply not work if they are good at dropping and stimkiting. Without stalkers to fire at medivacs there is nothing stopping them of simply dropping, stimming, killing some stuff and getting away unharmed. I think getting 1 more gas and just a few stalkers will make it work fine, given the map is large and open enough for zealots to work. | ||
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AoWLuXus
Korea (South)109 Posts
On January 04 2012 02:20 Abrafred wrote: You beat one guy while also expanding like crazy on 2 geysers... he was tired and needed sleep. Chill. You don't have to make a guide about it. Posts like yours make me believe in humanity. Thanks for the contribution. | ||
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Gorticus
Canada3 Posts
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ToHuBoHu
France7 Posts
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
That's greed at the level that only zerg can play at in my experience o.o If you upload ways to make that kind of crazieness work out I will ♥ you long time  (still reading) | ||
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piiiT
43 Posts
Im loving the approach to the matchup because i always wanted to expand like a zerg  to the guy with the 2 gate pressure and at least 3ffs : u realise u have 3 ffs when the push hits because u have gotten your sentry so early? | ||
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Xadar
497 Posts
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IMnoPro
23 Posts
On January 04 2012 05:56 Xadar wrote: If you are the AoWLuXus i beat on ladder a few times, i am sorry to tell you that you won't be a future GSL champion. He is not AoWLuxus. Luxus plays Zerg and is probably a team mate of him. Luxus is also not in GM while IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII even holds a a spot in Korean GM. I have to admit that it sounds very arrogant to call himself "future GSL champion" everywhere while being completely unknown and having achieved nothing in the competitive scene so far. | ||
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