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...on maps with a 2ndary ramp (for ladder, shak, antigua, one of those new ones.. the twilight one :p)
This will be a short guide. A cute little nAni build will be included as well! Consider it an Easter egg, a Christmas ornament as it were.
The meat
+ Show Spoiler +Here is a generic opener that gets you a 2nd gas at a reasonable time (21 food, not too shabby), and can go into whatever style you'd like. 9 Pylon 12 Gateway 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core 18 Zealot 21 Gas (2nd) 22 Stalker + wg (don't cb stalker; ~3 cb on WG should be fine. You just need to be able to get out a 2nd sentry with WG in time for the 2nd forcefield and that is all!) 25 Pylon (make sure you start this @100 mins!! 26 Stalker; CB it!!! 29 Tech structure of your choice! or additional gates if youre a scaredy cat 30 Sentry This will net you a zealot and 2 stalkers by the time any kind of approach comes. Get to the 2ndary ramp asap! This is the formation you want: ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-12-2417_19_34.jpg) This is not what you want: ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-12-2417_19_29.jpg) In the first screen capture, the stalkers are at the very lip of the ramp so that they are out of sight and can shoot the probe asap. In the 2nd one, they might have to move after you see the probe in order to start. bad! You might even consider having both stalkers closer to the inside corner of the ramp, still on the lip but hugging the wall where the probe will most likely try to mineral walk through. Here comes the approach: ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-12-2417_19_44.jpg) this game I didn't scout so I waste a few shots on the stalker before targeting the probe. As you'll see, this is fine even if he gets up 2 pylons below the ramp. Kill the probe, and then kill the stalker. This shouldn't be a problem with any kind of reasonable correct micro: ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-12-2417_19_54.jpg) After you kill the stalker for free, kill the zealot while retreating up your ramp. Your sentry should be done now. You want to kill the zealot before his pylons + WG is done to prevent an above-ramp warp-in or you're dead. Once the zealot is dead, focus down the pylons 1 by 1. Only use your 1st forcefield when he is about to get vision up the ramp: ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-12-2417_20_17.jpg) You should only get a 2nd sentry if you're being aggressed. Chain your 2nd ff with the first one: ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-12-2417_20_24.jpg) Once the 2nd ff is down, you are in great shape! continue to warp in as many sentries as you need to keep chaining forcefields. You'll bring down the 2nd pylon as your 2nd ff is in place, and then you've got it! It's really easy to forget your pylon on 32! Make sure you don't, or you might run out of FFs and lose immediately  ![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2011-12-2417_20_31.jpg) GG
The potatoes
+ Show Spoiler +This is most likely common knowledge for a lot of folks, but since I still hear people talking about losing to 4gate, I thought I'd share this little bit. I learned this from nAni at MLG. He did this build: 9 Pylon 12 Gateway 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core 18 Zealot 21 Gas (2nd) 22 Stalker + wg (don't cb stalker; ~3 cb on WG should be fine. You just need to be able to get out a 2nd sentry with WG in time for the 2nd forcefield and that is all!) 25 Pylon (make sure you start this @100 mins!! 26 Stalker; CB it!!! 29 Twilight Council 30 Sentry 32 Gate 32 Gate 32 Pylon ** whatever you need to defend, then a robo and an obs ** If you aren't being agressed, you don't need to warp in anything until you have started your robo! cool stuff. Anyway, try out this build and see how you like it. nani didn't really cut probes once he started producing units, and he expoed when I saw him do this against HuK after doing damage to HuK's earlier expansion, and then absolutely smoked the poor boy! The reason this is most/more effective on maps with a 2ndary ramp is that the approach MUST go through a single point, so it's easier to focus down the probe. You can do this to some degree on other maps, as well, but you should NEVER lose to 4g on the maps specified in the intro doing this! gl! Here is the replay from the screen shots for reference http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=16867more replays http://drop.sc/82667http://drop.sc/82666 if you go robo after 3 gates and twilight, you are pretty safe vs everything but wp rush. you should always check for it when it should come. i miss it this game but still win somehow O_O do what i did but check for wp a bit sooner so you can cancel your robo if need be alejP v clashmercyP
Happy Holidays!
aLeJ
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If he saves an extra chrono & builds 2nd stalker before 2/3/4th gate (or it is a small map) he can pressure hard with 1z 2st and force you to waste that early FF (or you risk losing your sentry) and it'll be difficult to get a 2nd sentry out (if i remember correctly perfect execution you can't afford to use the first FF until 5:45 so you have time to get a 2nd sentry out).
Also, if he makes you waste the first FF quickly and then the 2nd one with 1 gateway you won't be able to get a 3rd sentry out quick enough.
I do the same build except i build a 2nd gate and start the sentry before the tech building. Feels much safer to me.
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On December 25 2011 14:27 Complete wrote:
If he saves an extra chrono & builds 2nd stalker before 2/3/4th gate (or it is a small map) he can pressure hard with 1z 2st and force you to waste that early FF (or you risk losing your sentry) and it'll be difficult to get a 2nd sentry out (if i remember correctly perfect execution you can't afford to use the first FF until 5:45 so you have time to get a 2nd sentry out).
Also, if he makes you waste the first FF quickly and then the 2nd one with 1 gateway you won't be able to get a 3rd sentry out quick enough.
I do the same build except i build a 2nd gate and start the sentry before the tech building. Feels much safer to me.
replay of this? seems like his 2nd stalker would be much too late to be of any help here.
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What if the zealot goes straight up your ramp instead of getting kited at the bottom?
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On December 26 2011 01:45 name_lock wrote:
What if the zealot goes straight up your ramp instead of getting kited at the bottom?
The accompanying stalker will die even faster. Just make certain the zealot dies before the pylons finish.
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Excellent guide!
Also, this might be a stupid addition, but can you add something about scouting your base for pylons? 
It's kinda sad but I play at high diamond and have won many games by getting a pylon down in their base and 4 gating, and in my opinion that should never really happen.
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Oh wow, I noticed so people doing this too. Nice writeup, great guide! Thanks.
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I can't believe I've never done this before, it's so simple yet good 
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sick guide as always alej :>
On December 26 2011 02:23 Cycle wrote:Excellent guide! Also, this might be a stupid addition, but can you add something about scouting your base for pylons? It's kinda sad but I play at high diamond and have won many games by getting a pylon down in their base and 4 gating, and in my opinion that should never really happen.
just take a probe around the time youve scouted the area of your natural etc and positioned units on 2nd ramp (prolly around 5:10-5:20) and a-move it around possible locations of inbase pylons
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Glad to see PvP nowadays has evolved so much. I enjoy PvP on ladder more now cuz 4 gates defensive has much more advantage than ever.
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Great guide! I'll definitely be using this. Tangential question - what do you usually do after you stop the 4gate? Go back to your normal build? Apply pressure in case he puts down an expansion immediately after?
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Nice, this is slightly different from the way I defend, but I like it a lot with the early zealot, except for the key fact that you could be in some trouble if your 2nd gas gets stolen. I guess you could just 4gate yourself, but if your opponent defends they're in great shape. That's why I usually go 2nd gas first instead of getting the zealot, but of course getting the zealot has its advantages.
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Just block them from gas stealing and you don't have that issue. This build is very solid
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nice guide thx but what tech would you prefer against 4 gate robo or twilight?
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Thanks so much <3 I was trying to tell monk that you could defend a 4gate like this but he just wouldn't listen xD
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United States8476 Posts
On December 26 2011 07:54 Latedi wrote:
Thanks so much <3 I was trying to tell monk that you could defend a 4gate like this but he just wouldn't listen xD
This is nothing like what you were trying to convince me of. You were trying to say that 3 gate blind robo is perfectly safe on all maps. The technique represented in this post is only applicable on maps with ramps or chokes. More importantly, you were arguing this before the patch that nerfed 4 gate. In a previous patch, this technique wouldn't work either because of ramp vision.
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So, bring 2 probes when 4 gating on Shakuras and Antiga. Got it! Thanks for the help.
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On December 26 2011 08:15 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 07:54 Latedi wrote:
Thanks so much <3 I was trying to tell monk that you could defend a 4gate like this but he just wouldn't listen xD This is nothing like what you were trying to convince me of. You were trying to say that 3 gate blind robo is perfectly safe on all maps. The technique represented in this post is only applicable on maps with ramps or chokes. More importantly, you were arguing this before the patch that nerfed 4 gate. In a previous patch, this technique wouldn't work either because of ramp vision.
That depends a lot on your exact build, micro etc imo. Opinions and preferences basically. I'm glad Alej could explain it so well for me
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On December 26 2011 08:50 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 08:15 NrGmonk wrote:On December 26 2011 07:54 Latedi wrote:
Thanks so much <3 I was trying to tell monk that you could defend a 4gate like this but he just wouldn't listen xD This is nothing like what you were trying to convince me of. You were trying to say that 3 gate blind robo is perfectly safe on all maps. The technique represented in this post is only applicable on maps with ramps or chokes. More importantly, you were arguing this before the patch that nerfed 4 gate. In a previous patch, this technique wouldn't work either because of ramp vision. That depends a lot on your exact build, micro etc imo. Opinions and preferences basically. I'm glad Alej could explain it so well for me
I remember the thread you were referring to.
Of course opinions and preferences can differ, but at the same time can be wrong. Yes, I have to say that blind 3 gate robo is just silly to assume that it's safe against a 4 gate.
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what do you do if they had a second probe behind and put a pylon out of range and just continued to mass up a large zealot stalker army on the low ground?
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On December 26 2011 09:06 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 08:50 Latedi wrote:On December 26 2011 08:15 NrGmonk wrote:On December 26 2011 07:54 Latedi wrote:
Thanks so much <3 I was trying to tell monk that you could defend a 4gate like this but he just wouldn't listen xD This is nothing like what you were trying to convince me of. You were trying to say that 3 gate blind robo is perfectly safe on all maps. The technique represented in this post is only applicable on maps with ramps or chokes. More importantly, you were arguing this before the patch that nerfed 4 gate. In a previous patch, this technique wouldn't work either because of ramp vision. That depends a lot on your exact build, micro etc imo. Opinions and preferences basically. I'm glad Alej could explain it so well for me I remember the thread you were referring to. Of course opinions and preferences can differ, but at the same time can be wrong. Yes, I have to say that blind 3 gate robo is just silly to assume that it's safe against a 4 gate.
That's the protoss D/H thread :p Obviously going blind is stupid but look at the build in Alej's guide right here, that's a lot less safe, even though it's completely safe against a 4gate. I hope that made any sense.
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On December 26 2011 09:21 DarkLegend wrote:
what do you do if they had a second probe behind and put a pylon out of range and just continued to mass up a large zealot stalker army on the low ground?
You have more time to make sentries, as well as get your tech structure up (like a robo for immortals). 4gates are at their strongest when they first hit within the first wave or two of warp-ins
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On December 26 2011 02:23 Cycle wrote:Excellent guide! Also, this might be a stupid addition, but can you add something about scouting your base for pylons? It's kinda sad but I play at high diamond and have won many games by getting a pylon down in their base and 4 gating, and in my opinion that should never really happen.
scouting in-base pylons- make sure you do it! :D they'll become dangerous around the 5:00 mark where you might not be able to take them down if you see them in time. it happens to the best players in the world, still. you're playing defensively so there's no reason not to take your zealot and just have him rally around the edges of your base!
On December 26 2011 03:33 hox wrote:
Great guide! I'll definitely be using this. Tangential question - what do you usually do after you stop the 4gate? Go back to your normal build? Apply pressure in case he puts down an expansion immediately after?
the only change is that i have a few extra sentries. I still get my twilight up, though my blink is a bit slower. however, if he is 4gating you, you really should be able to win from there no matter what you do or what he does because it's such a huge investment that falls flat, meanwhile you have 2 gases, tech, and you didn't invest all your money into useless units!
On December 26 2011 04:10 -orb- wrote:
Nice, this is slightly different from the way I defend, but I like it a lot with the early zealot, except for the key fact that you could be in some trouble if your 2nd gas gets stolen. I guess you could just 4gate yourself, but if your opponent defends they're in great shape. That's why I usually go 2nd gas first instead of getting the zealot, but of course getting the zealot has its advantages.
2nd gas at 21 is pretty early! if they steal it before 21 food that means you can still steal theirs, unless they did 2nd gas on 18, in which case just wtf4gatepwn them because they have 3 gases, most likely no zealot and 150 mins gone to waste on non units and non gates! alternatively a very fast 3 gate would be nice, though i like to make sure i can secure a pylon on the high ground before doing anything like that. imo if you can't secure a high ground pylon, you're just counting on them screwing up by not having enough sentries via supply block etc.
On December 26 2011 07:45 TeCH_TT wrote:
nice guide thx but what tech would you prefer against 4 gate robo or twilight?
if you have good micro go blink and end the game the second you finish it!
On December 26 2011 08:43 .Enigma wrote:
So, bring 2 probes when 4 gating on Shakuras and Antiga. Got it! Thanks for the help.
trolololol xD
On December 26 2011 09:21 DarkLegend wrote:
what do you do if they had a second probe behind and put a pylon out of range and just continued to mass up a large zealot stalker army on the low ground?
ezpz 1 ff and delayed 4gate is dead in the water, so long as you can continue to warp in as many as you need
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in the game i saw nani vs huk, nani didn't even scout with this until after 15. this makes me confident that he is comfortable vs a lot of stuff inc 3 gate pressures and 4gate. i haven't seem him use it vs 3 gate pressure so i'm not sure the adjustments he makes; i wouldn't recommend forgoing scouting altogether though as you probably want to scout 15 the latest through the middle on antigua to look for proxy gates and the like. peace of mind is good, but not always necessary if you're a gosu like nani i suppose :p
cheers!
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On December 26 2011 09:21 DarkLegend wrote:
what do you do if they had a second probe behind and put a pylon out of range and just continued to mass up a large zealot stalker army on the low ground?
Go Robo and proceed to drop him if he is still making a "contain" ? You can go immortal sentry hold the ramp while dropping him.. There you go :D
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How do you find this work against that 11gate 3gate pressure? I think it should work in theory but I'm unsure.
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i would assume as long as you got the probe you'd be all good
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On December 26 2011 20:07 DarkLegend wrote:
i would assume as long as you got the probe you'd be all good
Yeah, but will the second stalker still be there in time?
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On December 26 2011 20:13 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 20:07 DarkLegend wrote:
i would assume as long as you got the probe you'd be all good Yeah, but will the second stalker still be there in time?
not sure. i'd be happy to go through some dry runs with you. not sure when i'll be on today. about to pass out, wake up in a few hours, spend the afternoon wit gf then hop on for some games! shoot me a pm if you'd like to play some on na or eu.
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Great guide but I have a question. How do you deal with 3 stalker rush into 4 gate? I'm only plat but one of my friends has a tendency to do that every game we play.
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On December 26 2011 21:19 iREight wrote:
Great guide but I have a question. How do you deal with 3 stalker rush into 4 gate? I'm only plat but one of my friends has a tendency to do that every game we play.
you're saying he's pushing up the ramp with the 3 stalkers as soon as he gets them? post a replay here and we'll take a look
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On December 26 2011 21:19 iREight wrote:
Great guide but I have a question. How do you deal with 3 stalker rush into 4 gate? I'm only plat but one of my friends has a tendency to do that every game we play.
Snipe the probe then retreat up your ramp.
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Nice post, a game where the opponent plays standard, any style but 4 gate, would be appreciated!
Not necessary for smart people since the transition out of this is surely very normal and natural but I would really appreciate it because my timing is often off with blink (+obs) builds
btw. I just saw a vileYong replay, he opens the same, 21 gas, cb 2nd stalker etc. but he gets 2nd and 3rd gate before twilight
what i thought was interesting was that vileyong actually cancelled his sentry when he realized there was no attack incoming, and then immediately got the twilight council at 29 food with his 2nd and 3rd gate about 50% done.
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On December 27 2011 11:19 7mk wrote:
Nice post, a game where the opponent plays standard, any style but 4 gate, would be appreciated!
Not necessary for smart people since the transition out of this is surely very normal and natural but I would really appreciate it because my timing is often off with blink (+obs) builds
btw. I just saw a vileYong replay, he opens the same, 21 gas, cb 2nd stalker etc. but he gets 2nd and 3rd gate before twilight
what i thought was interesting was that vileyong actually cancelled his sentry when he realized there was no attack incoming, and then immediately got the twilight council at 29 food with his 2nd and 3rd gate about 50% done.
i'd be very careful with that! unless you can really get a full scout, having that 1 sentry out is pretty key if they're doing a weird delayed 4 gate. it sounds weird, but i've lost to it from being greedy after getting complacent after nothing came at the usual timing. there probably isn't much different between getting the council 1st and the gateways 1st; it doesn't really make yong safe in that game as the sentry is what is keeping you alive from the delayed 4gate not gates 2 and 3.
Your blink will be a bit slower with gates first obviously, but a fast blink is really only necessary if you're doing a blink rush or if they're doing a blink rush since getting caught moving across the map vs blink with no blink is insta gg. so that version will just move out a bit later.
i like nani's since you can get a lot of free units since fast blink has kind of been phased out since the nerf, and the 1 sentry + however many you need will keep you safe from everything but WP or phoenix. i recommend scouting for the wp around when your blink is done off of 1 gate twilight as that's generally when the wp would come, perhaps a bit sooner depending on their build.
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On December 25 2011 14:06 Alejandrisha wrote:
Going to put together a speed colo drop out of 15 nexus guide momentarily. Hold tight!
omg can you please devote a good chunk of that guide on how to micro the prism/colossi >_> i'm so bad at it
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This seems like a solid build to me and I think it would certainly stop most standard 4Gates on these maps. However, I think that if your opponent puts a chrono onto the first Stalker (something that I'll do occasionally, depending on what I scout) instead of all of them on WG, their Stalker and Zealot should be at your ramp before your second Stalker is out. Obviously you still have a high ground advantage but it does force a micro battle and can get pretty ugly. If you could test that out I'd be interested in knowing the results!
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How is this new or anything? 3 stalker rush, or defensive 3 gate or getting 2 stalkers and sentry. There is already so many variations of builds that can defend 4 gate with ramp every time. I don't understand why would you post new build unless it's better than older ones.
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Nice guide, but a decent scout and a zealot stalker poke will prove a 4 gate and a few sentries during a 3 gate robo basically own a 4 gate to hell and back.
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On December 27 2011 16:23 Dariusz wrote:
How is this new or anything? 3 stalker rush, or defensive 3 gate or getting 2 stalkers and sentry. There is already so many variations of builds that can defend 4 gate with ramp every time. I don't understand why would you post new build unless it's better than older ones.
sorry if i've offended you. some people like having more options.
i personally don't like 3 stalker rushing to stop 4 gate as you have to cut probes and most of the time i don't want to have such a 2nd quick gate before teching, as it's quite an investment at 18-20 food or whenever one chooses to get it. if you can't understand why i choose to post this build then you obviously don't have any of these problems and you can just ignore it or choose not use it. i, personally, don't understand why you'd take the 30 seconds out of your life to call me out for contributing. maybe you can explain that one.
if you can't understand the advantage this build gives you in terms of having the thinnest possible defense, then i guess it isn't for you and you can keep wasting gas on extraneous sentries.
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On December 27 2011 16:18 gdalam wrote:
This seems like a solid build to me and I think it would certainly stop most standard 4Gates on these maps. However, I think that if your opponent puts a chrono onto the first Stalker (something that I'll do occasionally, depending on what I scout) instead of all of them on WG, their Stalker and Zealot should be at your ramp before your second Stalker is out. Obviously you still have a high ground advantage but it does force a micro battle and can get pretty ugly. If you could test that out I'd be interested in knowing the results!
on what map would their 1st chrono boosted stalker and zealot get to my ramp with probe/zealot before my 2nd stalker is out?? replay?
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On December 26 2011 04:10 -orb- wrote:
Nice, this is slightly different from the way I defend, but I like it a lot with the early zealot, except for the key fact that you could be in some trouble if your 2nd gas gets stolen. I guess you could just 4gate yourself, but if your opponent defends they're in great shape. That's why I usually go 2nd gas first instead of getting the zealot, but of course getting the zealot has its advantages.
I think that if you get gas stolen and they take double gas themselves you can do a 1 gate expansion safely. Just let the zealot kill the assimilator, use your stalker to chase out the probe or kill it and then expand. Use all chrono on warpgate tech and warpgates and the nexus should finish around the same time. Nexus costs around 300 mins considering it counts as a pylon too, they've spent 150 mins more on assimilators, i think you can hold it as long as you can scout they didn't fake a 1 gas 4 gate (not mining from second gas).
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this replay addresses delayed 4gate
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=247730
i should have warped in a 2nd sentry sooner, obviously. some how i thought i had another ff coming up.
as you can see, you don't have to worry about denying lowground proxy pylons. in fact, if i had tried to deny that pylon, it would have put me further from my ramp and i might have lost a unit in the process and not been able to get up the ramp in time. just hold the big ramp, then once your sentry is out hold the little one :D
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seen this done! done it myself! very good write up!
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this should be educational for vs 4g
http://drop.sc/82666
if you read early core, be more aggressive fending off that first probe, as it's likely he will not ever bring a 2nd stalker on the first poke
http://drop.sc/82667
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Ya but how does it do against the adelscott build???
For serious though have you ran across a well executed Oz 3gate with this opening yet?
(Timings from a random recent replay)
I'll be walking up your natural ramp on shakuras with zealot stalker probe at 4:52 which is just before your 2nd stalker spawns on that last replay (only watched the one).
I'm skeptical that this can hold that. (not saying the build is bad by any means)
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On January 02 2012 19:04 Jaeger wrote:
Ya but how does it do against the adelscott build???
For serious though have you ran across a well executed Oz 3gate with this opening yet?
(Timings from a random recent replay)
I'll be walking up your natural ramp on shakuras with zealot stalker probe at 4:52 which is just before your 2nd stalker spawns on that last replay (only watched the one).
I'm skeptical that this can hold that. (not saying the build is bad by any means)
as long as i can deny the above-ground pylon, i feel 100% safe. after his probe goes down and he might get off a pylon on the low ground, i feel confident i'll be able to outmicro him as my 2nd stalker comes down and gets in the fight. he really has to fight to even get his first warp-in, and it will invariably be on the low ground. by the time he goes for his second warp-in, i have my sentry out on top. it will come down to whether or not he gets 2 low ground pylons down with his probe. sometimes this can happen and it comes down to micro. i have been doing this build a lot, so it's bound to happen eventually. i'll let you know
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Thank you so much for this guide. I just played and won the first PvP I've had in more than a month where I didn't feel just completely lost.
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On January 03 2012 06:41 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Thank you so much for this guide. I just played and won the first PvP I've had in more than a month where I didn't feel just completely lost.
no problem! this build is so safe it's silly sometimes. if you go robo, you are pretty safe vs everything but wp rush. you should always check for it when it should come. i miss it this game but still win somehow O_O
do what i did but check for wp a bit sooner so you can cancel your robo if need be
alejP v clashmercyP
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I Know DeaDox =D!!!!
Btw great build, I used it abit on ladder, just got to master with it! (used my own version of it thought)
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Nice! Yeah I've started REALLY liking the secondary ramp maps because I try to always play macro games. Very friendly to defense. Thanks Alej, good guide!
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thanks for your kind words :D
lately I've been doing this with a small variant.
instead of going
twilight
gate
gate
pylon
i've been doing
twilight
gate
pylon
gate
as i don't really see a need for the fastest possible 3rd gate and you can resume probe/unit production more quickly. you can also start blink before starting the 3rd gate relatively safely
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coming soon.. new 1g tech build that will hold 4gate 100% if executed correctly, and a 2g build that will hold all 4g even if you're a bit sloppy.
4g is officially obsolete on maps with a ramp. start working on other builds, 4gaters :p
looking for more 4gaters.. inquire within if you can get 2pylons, 6 stalkers and a zealot to my ramp by 5:40
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EPT
