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On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
I just saw the first game.
First of all pylon on 9 is more efficient than pilon on 10.
In my opinion you should practice the BO a little bit more...it's the third pylon that goes on low ground, not the second.
In that first game you were able to make the nexus that early because you didn't constantly make probes.
Also you shouldn't abandon this build if you see a 14 gas 14 pool. The nice thing about this build is that, if done correctly, it can hold a speedlings allin.
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On January 30 2012 20:11 AfricanPsycho wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?) I only watched the second game, but the 4gate pressure was kinda good as it forced units and you didnt lose anything so very good non-commital aggression, however you saw he only had lings and a couple spines the could mean only infestor or muta. If muta you need to get a third up very fast and get alot of cannons, you will never win on 2 base vs muta (ur third was too late so he could easily snipe it need cannans there quicker). I didnt like your continued aggression after the 4gate push at all, what you needed to do was scout the zerg and counter him. Oh and vs infestor you just need collusus they own infestor ling super hard. My recommendation to you is do the 4gate push but also get hullusination and scout the zerg around 8 minutes to see his tech path, it is critical that you are ready for muta before they hit, or you wont win, this means third base cannons and temps on the way. Sorry I think I got a bit repetitive there.
Thanks! That sounds like very solid advice.
Out of curiosity, if I scout he's delayed his third and is getting a large number of roach/hydra, do I delay my third and rush for colossus? I lost to a big push like this yesterday while I was trying to get my early third up.
I guess getting the hallucinated phoenix out before 8 mins would allow me to figure out how to react. Sounds good, thanks again!
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I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after.
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On February 01 2012 03:58 DoctorFunk wrote:
I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after.
I was wondering if someone could speak to this issue? I've been a big fan of this style of expanding for awhile now.. and I like to see an actual guide that smooths out my rough edges... my biggest problem though has been the zergs that simply mass speedlings and take me out...
I'm not sure if this is a macro problem or a map problem, or a micro problem? (Or all 3)
Any tips on this? I was thinking that maybe scouting a speedling expand by the zerg is necessary to be prepared.. but what is the proper response? Lots of cannons?
I feel like if my Nexus gets cancelled I've lost....
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It seems like the solution would be cannons, and that's my main problem with this build. If you need cannons anyways, it's likely that a ffe is a more direct and economical approach to getting that base up. The practicality of a or gate expand, in my experience, comes in the form of a strong gateway timing to either kill the third or all-in and straight up win. I've won countless games from a 6 gate after 1 gate expo. They just underestimate the strength of gateway units at that point, and underestimate the rate that the army builds up. Sure, you don't have the invaluable +1 that you get with a gateway push off of a forge expand, but you really do have sheer power. I haven't run a comparison to timings off of a ffe opposed to a gateway expo, but it certainly feels powerful.
That's just my 2.5 cents
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Depending on the timing of your push, you should still be able to get +1 off of a gateway expand -> push, although I think you would have to trade-off the number of gates though (especially if also dumping resources in Hallucinate - IMO, a must if going for a gateway expand). I think you can get +1 around ~9.00 if, say, Nexus down before 5.30 although you have to weigh that with the number of Sentries you want as well at that point in the game (4 Sentries could mean an even earlier +1 given constant chrono). I'm not sure you could support more than 3 gates though.
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On February 01 2012 04:06 Maverick32x wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:58 DoctorFunk wrote:
I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after. I was wondering if someone could speak to this issue? I've been a big fan of this style of expanding for awhile now.. and I like to see an actual guide that smooths out my rough edges... my biggest problem though has been the zergs that simply mass speedlings and take me out... I'm not sure if this is a macro problem or a map problem, or a micro problem? (Or all 3) Any tips on this? I was thinking that maybe scouting a speedling expand by the zerg is necessary to be prepared.. but what is the proper response? Lots of cannons? I feel like if my Nexus gets cancelled I've lost....
I have never seen a pro replay where they were able to save their nexus after 1-gate FE vs a speedling opener, although to be fair 1-gate FE is a relatively rare opener so the sample size isn't very large.
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Canada13379 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:41 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:06 Maverick32x wrote:On February 01 2012 03:58 DoctorFunk wrote:
I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after. I was wondering if someone could speak to this issue? I've been a big fan of this style of expanding for awhile now.. and I like to see an actual guide that smooths out my rough edges... my biggest problem though has been the zergs that simply mass speedlings and take me out... I'm not sure if this is a macro problem or a map problem, or a micro problem? (Or all 3) Any tips on this? I was thinking that maybe scouting a speedling expand by the zerg is necessary to be prepared.. but what is the proper response? Lots of cannons? I feel like if my Nexus gets cancelled I've lost.... I have never seen a pro replay where they were able to save their nexus after 1-gate FE vs a speedling opener, although to be fair 1-gate FE is a relatively rare opener so the sample size isn't very large.
It requires really precise timing and I feel that opening with this is much much better against a hatch first delayed gas opening as opposed to a gas pool before hatch opening.
Then again, to be fair I really like stargate expands on maps that forge FE is hard on.
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On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
Yes I still use this opening. My goto is FFE, but this is something I pull out often in successive rounds with the same person.
Your first game you had poor scouting. What's the point of checking his vespene if you ignore the timing in which he can have speedlings. You had about 1 minute 30 seconds to tromp around his natural with your Zealot/Stalker based off of the vespene timing scouted. You could have had even more time to tromp around if you were more diligent with your first probe on scouting his gas geysers. At 7-9 minutes is chronoboost time. You need additional probes then like no other. However I'm seeing a solid 50 energy on each nexus! That's like -4 probes, then add on the time in which your Nexuses were just plain unpowered and you're down by at least 10 probes just for not building probes. That's like a cloaked banshee wreaking havoc in a good player's base -that's your normal base. Probes are important! Imagine if you chrono'd and built your probes properly, and attacked accordingly in the early game. You'd have a solid 15-20 worker lead by ten minutes.
Second game, didn't scout gas timing and lost your initial units. No reason for that! 600 minerals at 6:20. What about spending that money? Your warpgate is late, nexuses are idle, you have a lot of extra supply. Have to tighten up your early game!
On January 28 2012 19:24 UmbeXCII wrote:Mid master protoss EU here. I've been trying this build for a while because I'm tired of FFE but I can't win any game with it. I do a slightly variation, after my nexus I make a gate and a forge instead of 2 gates, then I build two additional gates after I made either robo, twilight or stargate. The opening goes fine but I just don't know how to continue after it. When I ffe I know that I have to pressure the zergs' third (I usually do the +1 zealot + voidray timing), but when I use this build I don't know how to take a quick third or how to do a timing to kill the third. I made a replay pack of last night pvzs...they're all losses. Can someone give them a look and tell me if there's something in particular that I'm doing wrong? Watching the replays myself I see that I suck with FFs and at scouting... Any tip is well accepted. Thank you  Replay pack (6 games)Edit: Played some more games today, I scouted better and made better ffs (kind of :p)...here's 3 replays of 3 victories. Replay pack (3 games)
From the larger replay pack: Game 1: Failed to scout vespene gas properly. What good is blocking the hatch going to do if you know he has no drones at his natural? If you had properly scouted his Vespene you could have just Chrono'd two Stalkers out and sat back on a Chrono'd nexuses with a Gateway wall at your Natural, with an early tech structure. He had no speed until 8 minutes, and you let him take a free third. You are also suffering from a lack of Chrono on your Nexuses around the same time the Platinum player above you in this post did. You need more probes!
Game 2: That forge is going to kill you against allins. You don't have time to get cannons up and it provides no army value. This game is a little better early game than the previous but your probe production is still heavily lacking. I have as many probes as you do often times a few minutes earlier than you do.
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On February 01 2012 06:12 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?) Yes I still use this opening. My goto is FFE, but this is something I pull out often in successive rounds with the same person. Your first game you had poor scouting. What's the point of checking his vespene if you ignore the timing in which he can have speedlings. You had about 1 minute 30 seconds to tromp around his natural with your Zealot/Stalker based off of the vespene timing scouted. You could have had even more time to tromp around if you were more diligent with your first probe on scouting his gas geysers. At 7-9 minutes is chronoboost time. You need additional probes then like no other. However I'm seeing a solid 50 energy on each nexus! That's like -4 probes, then add on the time in which your Nexuses were just plain unpowered and you're down by at least 10 probes just for not building probes. That's like a cloaked banshee wreaking havoc in a good player's base -that's your normal base. Probes are important! Imagine if you chrono'd and built your probes properly, and attacked accordingly in the early game. You'd have a solid 15-20 worker lead by ten minutes. Second game, didn't scout gas timing and lost your initial units. No reason for that! 600 minerals at 6:20. What about spending that money? Your warpgate is late, nexuses are idle, you have a lot of extra supply. Have to tighten up your early game!
Thank you Cecil, you're a boss
Being active with units in the middle of the map while macroing is something I have to practice. I tend to stop probe production and float heaps of minerals whenever I move out 
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Cecil, you are the sh*t (in a good way), will defo try this out and see what happens!
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if you have more replays of you using this build can you please post them
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Hi cecile. Im a plat player and I made a variation of this build my standard PVZ for certain maps where you can wall with 3 gateway sized buildings (Cloud kingdom, Entombed Valey, Shakuras )and/or with a small ramp close to the natural nexus position (daybreak, Antiga), and to some extent Taldarim Altar. Its really dependent on Sim city.
What I do is cut probes at 24 food and build a nexus, 1 pylon and 2 gates after that while chronoing my WG research. Finally, after that I get my assim and resume probe production (no chrono on nexus). What I get is a 6:10-6:20 WG timing with 3 warpin of stalkers making my attacking units a total of 5 stalkers, 1 zealot and one sentry which I attack with. A few have said it felt like a delayed 4 gate although I am just doing a 3 gate. Meanwhile, I can pump out probes non stop while teching (usually colossus tech to finish them off). Can you give some comments on this?
here is a replay with my friend who is also plat ( its peepmode with 2 games in it)
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Joon_(T)Raise_(P)Senthin_(T)Havyk_vs/18625
I do see some holes in my play in the 2 games we played like poor positioning, tech choices, and possibple flank opportunities for the enemy.
This is a replay where I didnt botch the opening but its vs an AI so its probably not much
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Joon_vs_(Z)Computer 2/18628
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Hey great guide! I've been playing around with your CvZ and I love it!
However, I've been having a lot of trouble with 1-base zerg all-ins (w/roach+ling).
If zerg opens pool first, my probe always dies at the awkward moment where they might or might not expand and I can never tell. Sometimes zerg will even bring a drone down to fake it. The main problem I'm having involves the simcity with the two gates on the low ground. If they one base all in, I feel like there's no way to protect those gates, esp. given the amount of sentries you have at the time. Against 2-base zerg, the sim-city is wonderful. Against 1-base, not so much.
So my question is: How should we scout, if our first probe dies. Should I send another scout before throwing down those two gates?
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On April 23 2012 02:24 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 05:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:33 Sated wrote:On April 20 2012 01:28 ZeromuS wrote:On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style? The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help. If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need. If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen. You're probably right having thought about it - 2base Carrier does seem more like something White-Ra would do and I don't really want to go for any 2base Carrier play; it's a bit too fragile for my liking  With regards to this opening, what I've been doing is this: http://drop.sc/163637You'll have to excuse the late second gas (should've taken it after starting the Stalker), the supply blocks near the start and the indecision in the mid-game because I'm still feeling my way around the Twilight timing and the Robotics timing. What I'm sure of are the timings up until the third base is thrown down, and I'd probably add that I'm fairly sure about the Forge timing (although I should've chronoboosted +1 more, and the Forge should've probably been placed closer to the natural wall-off). From there, I figured lining the Twilight up with +1 finishing made sense... but Blink would've been far too late to deflect earlier Mutalisks in this particular case. I also have no way of effectively scouting until the Robotics Facility is up, so since I'm going for Sentries I should probably work Hallucination into this build somehow. Any advice would be great - like I say, I am still feeling my way around the timings since I don't have anything concrete (i.e. VODs) to work from. Here is a better example that I just played (against a Masters player!): http://drop.sc/163695The timings are tighter on the upgrades etc. and I think my sim-city is better in this replay. Making a wall-off at the natural (where the rocks are) instead of at the third seems better because it makes bouncing between the natural and the third easier, hence making it easier to defend both locations. Going up to 6gate +2 Blink Stalker before committing to a Robo was a good idea; Forcefields and Blink will keep you safe against most things at that particular timing. The poke that I did against their third as Blink and +2 finished was a good idea too, even if my poor sim-city at the third did leave me open to a run-by - this push revealed Roaches over Mutalisks (I think I could probably outright win against Ling/Muta if they'd skipped Roaches) and so allowed me to go home and throw down a double Robo. I could've gone double Stargate Carrier if I'd wanted to, but I'll save that for when I'm feeling braver. I could've gotten a Stargate sooner for a Mothership... and the Brood Lords surprised me because I lacked scouting... but I definitely felt much better this time around than the previous time around! Much work to do, but it is looking good. Don't know how it would do against Stephano-style Roaches, but no one is going to do that against a Gateway expand... right? I posted the above in the Protoss Help Me thread, but I figured I would ask about it here as well. Do you think that going for an incredibly fast third out of this opening is a good idea considering the passive manner in which most Zerg players want to play the match-up? And do you think I'm going about it in a stable manner? You mention fast third-bases in the thread, but don't really go into any specifics...
Have you tried this opening? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE
It is a gate expand that is much more economical (about as economical as a forge first FFE) than nexus after core. This is IMO the best opening if your goal is go for a fast 3rd nexus in response to a fast 3 hatch opening. Since it is still a gate expand you still have a faster WG which you can use to pressure or defend your 3rd with. I usually go pressure with 4 initial zealots and grab my 3rd b/w 6 and 7 mins (depends if I feel safe to throw down my nexus before my 2nd and 3rd gates). Since it is so economical you don't have to feel as pressured to do damage to the zerg. If you open 1 gas nexus after core you pretty much have to do some serious damage to stay on par, which isn't necessarily good or bad but you need some good stalker micro/multi-task to make it worth it IMO.
The only thing that has caught me off-guard while going fast 3rd nexus is the 3 hatch ling/baneling all-in (hits ~7:30). In that case you basically just cancel your 3rd and wall-up your natural (your initial zealot pressure should sniff this out). But 3 hatch ling/baneling gets the 3rd hatch slightly later than normal (~5 mins instead of ~4 mins) so just be mindful of that.
In terms of follow-ups after you secure your 3rd, I like to go twilight to get blink and +2 weapons since stalkers are pretty much good vs. everything. Then I get a later robo for obs so I can see their attach paths (very important in defending your 3rd) and also in case of burrow. Squeeze out an immortal or 2 vs roaches as well. I'm still wavering on if hallucination is worth it or not. Hallucination will get you faster scouting but it will delay your robo.
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On April 23 2012 07:32 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 Skyro wrote:On April 23 2012 02:24 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 05:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:33 Sated wrote:On April 20 2012 01:28 ZeromuS wrote:On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style? The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help. If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need. If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen. You're probably right having thought about it - 2base Carrier does seem more like something White-Ra would do and I don't really want to go for any 2base Carrier play; it's a bit too fragile for my liking With regards to this opening, what I've been doing is this: http://drop.sc/163637You'll have to excuse the late second gas (should've taken it after starting the Stalker), the supply blocks near the start and the indecision in the mid-game because I'm still feeling my way around the Twilight timing and the Robotics timing. What I'm sure of are the timings up until the third base is thrown down, and I'd probably add that I'm fairly sure about the Forge timing (although I should've chronoboosted +1 more, and the Forge should've probably been placed closer to the natural wall-off). From there, I figured lining the Twilight up with +1 finishing made sense... but Blink would've been far too late to deflect earlier Mutalisks in this particular case. I also have no way of effectively scouting until the Robotics Facility is up, so since I'm going for Sentries I should probably work Hallucination into this build somehow. Any advice would be great - like I say, I am still feeling my way around the timings since I don't have anything concrete (i.e. VODs) to work from. Here is a better example that I just played (against a Masters player!): http://drop.sc/163695The timings are tighter on the upgrades etc. and I think my sim-city is better in this replay. Making a wall-off at the natural (where the rocks are) instead of at the third seems better because it makes bouncing between the natural and the third easier, hence making it easier to defend both locations. Going up to 6gate +2 Blink Stalker before committing to a Robo was a good idea; Forcefields and Blink will keep you safe against most things at that particular timing. The poke that I did against their third as Blink and +2 finished was a good idea too, even if my poor sim-city at the third did leave me open to a run-by - this push revealed Roaches over Mutalisks (I think I could probably outright win against Ling/Muta if they'd skipped Roaches) and so allowed me to go home and throw down a double Robo. I could've gone double Stargate Carrier if I'd wanted to, but I'll save that for when I'm feeling braver. I could've gotten a Stargate sooner for a Mothership... and the Brood Lords surprised me because I lacked scouting... but I definitely felt much better this time around than the previous time around! Much work to do, but it is looking good. Don't know how it would do against Stephano-style Roaches, but no one is going to do that against a Gateway expand... right? I posted the above in the Protoss Help Me thread, but I figured I would ask about it here as well. Do you think that going for an incredibly fast third out of this opening is a good idea considering the passive manner in which most Zerg players want to play the match-up? And do you think I'm going about it in a stable manner? You mention fast third-bases in the thread, but don't really go into any specifics... Have you tried this opening? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEIt is a gate expand that is much more economical (about as economical as a forge first FFE) than nexus after core. This is IMO the best opening if your goal is go for a fast 3rd nexus in response to a fast 3 hatch opening. Since it is still a gate expand you still have a faster WG which you can use to pressure or defend your 3rd with. I usually go pressure with 4 initial zealots and grab my 3rd b/w 6 and 7 mins (depends if I feel safe to throw down my nexus before my 2nd and 3rd gates). Since it is so economical you don't have to feel as pressured to do damage to the zerg. If you open 1 gas nexus after core you pretty much have to do some serious damage to stay on par, which isn't necessarily good or bad but you need some good stalker micro/multi-task to make it worth it IMO. The only thing that has caught me off-guard while going fast 3rd nexus is the 3 hatch ling/baneling all-in (hits ~7:30). In that case you basically just cancel your 3rd and wall-up your natural (your initial zealot pressure should sniff this out). But 3 hatch ling/baneling gets the 3rd hatch slightly later than normal (~5 mins instead of ~4 mins) so just be mindful of that. In terms of follow-ups after you secure your 3rd, I like to go twilight to get blink and +2 weapons since stalkers are pretty much good vs. everything. Then I get a later robo for obs so I can see their attach paths (very important in defending your 3rd) and also in case of burrow. Squeeze out an immortal or 2 vs roaches as well. I'm still wavering on if hallucination is worth it or not. Hallucination will get you faster scouting but it will delay your robo. I have no interest in the FFE and YufFE openings outside of using them to do a 7gate +2 Blink Stalker all-in or some sort of 2base Immortal all-in. I do not believe they are the best way to open if you plan to play a macro game against a Zerg player and that's despite them being undoubtedly more economical than a Gate/Core opening. I know that sounds backwards, so let me tell you why: First of all, both the FFE and YufFE openings let the Zerg know that they can take a very fast third base without any risks. This is because they can instantly cross off the most dangerous Protoss early-game builds from their list of things you can do. Here is a list of things that they know you're not doing without having to properly scout you: - 4gate - 5gate Zealot/Sentry - 3gate Robo all-in (many varieties) - 4gate Warp-Prism all-in - 3gate Blink-Stalker all-in - DT expand Secondly, both the FFE and YufFE let the Zerg know that they can delay gas (and therefore Zergling speed) for a very long time. This is because they know that they're not going to have a Stalker they can't kill (without making far too many Zerglings) ruining their game-plan after only a couple of minutes. Admittedly, I'm yet to incorporate this early pressure into my games because my multi-tasking isn't that great, but I feel that this guide shows that Zealot/Stalker pokes can be really good against Zerg players who skimp on gas. This is an option that I want to have, especially against Zerg players who don't bother to Drone scout. Thirdly, although the FFE and YufFE are more economical than Gate/Core openings, any advantage you gain over a Gate/Core opening is cancelled out by how greedy the Zerg opponent is subsequently allowed to be. It's no use playing a more economical build if that build allows your Zerg opponent to only make Drones for 7/8 minutes. Anyway... My follow-up is also to get +2 and Blink as quickly as possible. I can have both of those finished by around 11:00 if my macro is perfect (but it's never perfect, so closer to 12:00 is more realistic). At this point I'll have 6 Gateways churning out Stalkers and I'll be throwing down my Robotics Facility ready for a 2robo Colossus transition. As I only do this three-base opening on maps with an easy to defend third-base (Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley), Forcefields and Blink Stalkers are usually enough to defend against 3base Roach spam or 3base Roach/Hydra spam (which is becoming popular again, at least in the games I've been playing). Needless to say, if I can't defend at this point then it isn't because of the opening, it is because of my micro. At the end of the day, if I can get to 2robo Colossus without suffering massive damage then I'll feel pretty good about the game. This is because by 16:00/17:00 I can have Colossus, Extended Thermal Lances, +3, lots of Blink Stalkers and around 6/7 Sentries. This is a similar composition to this build and, although I get there later, I feel I get there safer given that my opening forces the Zerg to play a build that isn't a balls-to-the-wall Stephano-style Roach build. Unfortunately, I don't possess the ability to hit all these timings because I screw shit up. This means that my replays won't show this build at its best, even if I have been able to beat Masters-level Zerg players with it. I still think it has a lot of potential on the right maps (and I think that it is better to go for a 2base all-in than to take a fast third on the wrong maps).
You have some serious misconceptions about all these openings. First of all a zerg player can hold a 4-gate with a fast 3 hatch build if they know what they are doing. Nothing actually stops a zerg from getting a fast 3rd hatch regardless of how you open. A smart zerg won't change his entire opening based on seeing a gateway expand because they can easily scout when you expand with lings and there's nothing you can really do to prevent that scouting.
And also with a YufFE expand you can actually hit a 4-gate WG timing @ 6:15 if you so inclined (obviously a lot of probe cuts necessary). What this should tell you is that your core is ~30 secs delayed to compared to going core after gate, if you wanted to hit that WG timing or pressure with stalkers. But honestly I'd argue that stalker harass is quite inconsequential relative to what you give up in terms of econ and resources for those stalkers. +1 Zealots IMO are much, much more effective at forcing a large amount of lings.
And lastly I find it quite amusing how you admit you don't even do the stalker pressure with this build, when that is essentially the only reason you would do this opening. The logic of a "threat of various 1-base strats" is moot since you expand with this build early enough where it is before a fast 3 hatch zerg player would start to actually respond to potential 1-base play. Most zergs go fast 3rd hatch in response to 1-gate FE all the time, this is the advice given on these very forums.
And since you mention you can "beat masters zerg players" I can only surmise you're in diamond, and TBH you probably have bigger issues with your play which you should focus on rather than trying to implement an opening that requires a high level of micro/multi-tasking (stalker micro) and going for fast 3rd nexus builds. Although if you haven't really done much stalker harass to begin with I suppose that is why you overestimate its effect. OTOH if you enjoy to play in this way or this is your style of play that you favor and just want to have fun then by all means have at it, but I would be a bit more open-minded about the merits of other openings. For instance if I were to play with this opening (which I have when this guide was originally put up quite a while ago) I would play very very aggressive all throughout the game and only go for a later 3rd after I felt I (ideally) did a significant amount of damage but know that I can't finish them off. The whole premise of the build is to be aggressive throughout (even the OP says to not be passive), so I think trying to get a fast 3rd with only minor stalker harass is a recipe for disaster as you move up the ranks.
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EPT
