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Overview
Today is my birthday! I've been able to ladder a bit recently since finals ended, so I decided to take a little time out of my week to write a short yet interesting guide on my favorite opening for PvZ. I came up with this all of the below information on my own, so I don't actually know what other players are doing recently, and some may even be doing exactly what I detail here. Just a heads up. This is not a build order, just an opening. I'd define an opening as:
- Opening: The particular portion of a build that involves the earliest stages of the game. Usually lasts only the first few minutes, and is what "sets you up" for the entire game. Openings can often be decoupled with builds and lead into many different mid and late-game scenarios.
The idea is to get a fast Stalker and Zealot and press the early game lings away from your Natural, and follow with a Nexus and two more Gateways, for a 1 Gate Fast Expansion. You must be careful with your Speedling research timing to pull this off!
I love this opening because it puts a presence into the middle of the map, and you can keep this presence throughout the entirety of the game. In the replays section you'll find games where I just outplay my opponents since the very beginning of the game; this opening gives you a good chance to assert skill against your opponent from the get-go.
So why use this rather than a traditional 1 Gate FE? Well I find that this allows me a higher degree movement early on, and I can usually get a free Overlord with the early Stalker, force extra lings, or force and extra Spine Crawler (sometimes all three). This sort of opening over faster Sentries allows me to get ahead of an inferior opponent faster than another build would, in my opinion. I also feel active openings like this are great for those trying to improve, as you really benefit from pushing yourself to multi-task your Stalker/Zealot + Macro.
The Opening
Here is the basic outline in terms of supply in which to order or place what (assuming constant probe production):
- Pylon -> Chrono Nexus twice @100%
- Gateway
- Assimilator
- Pylon
- Cybernetics Core
- Zealot
- @100% Core: Stalker (Chrono'd); WarpGate Research (Chrono'd); Pylon on bottom of ramp
- Sentry (constantly produce Sentries from Gateway until WG research finishes)
- Chrono WarpGate Research
- @400 Minerals: Nexus
- Stop Probe Production
- 2 Gateways at Natural Expansion
- Resume Probe and Pylon Production
- Assimilator (finally)
What this opening lets you do is get out a very fast Zealot + Stalker. You use these two units to assert presence onto the middle of the map, and by anticipating a potential overreaction from your opponent you can enter into the Mid-Game with a very solid lead!
Pylon on Low Ground + Other Sim Cities
There are two different sim-cities that need to be known. The first is the Pylon on low ground. This Pylon is on the low ground at a slightly unusual time; it's early, before your Zealot even finishes. What if lings attack it? Well I'll tell you what, you want lings to attack it. Observe the following pictures:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J69Uz.png) Zealot + Pylon Unit Sim-City![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fEig6.png) Common Early Game Unit Sim-City
These two sim-cities will prevent lings from running up your ramp! Since your first Stalker is Chrono'd it will arrive in time to chase lings away with ease. Once you pull your Stalker and Zealot back in time to defend against speedlings (more on this further down), you can put a probe on hold in front of your Stalker to cut it's surface area down, and a Sentry will be just about to finish! This sim-city is perfect for just before or just as the Nexus is placed.
Next is the Gateway placement. Observe:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IQ35M.png) Important Low-Ground Sim-City
This sort of Gateway placement allows your Sentries early game to be in range of your ramp in the event of an attempted ling runby, but more importantly protects your units from a ling surround while being in range of the ramp and Probes. There should be one tile of space between your two gateways. It should be noted that this setup is great for Xel'Naga caverns, but for Shattered Temple you should have that single tile of space between the second Gateway and the Nexus.
Your Zealot is covering the front, and a poor player a-moving their lings at your natural will be frustrated as all their lings dance in front of the two Gateways. A single well-placed Force Field will also do the trick in stopping all ling movements around the Nexus through the mineral fields.
It should be noted that after you get 4-5 Sentries + whatever else you warped in, you should move your army into position in your Probe line, or wall entrance such that you won't lose any probes to a quick harass of lings, or fast banelings.
First Zealot + Stalker
You need to know when to return to your Natural Expansion. Speedlings are the real danger. A Zerg opponent can have ling speed finished, at the fastest, 3 minutes and 15 seconds after their first Extractor is placed. Knowing this, you can know when your opponent cannot have Ling Speed. You need to be back before this time hits! If you lose your first Stalker (the Zealot is probably okay to lose, but you really shouldn't unless you get into their natural) it's basically going to be game over.
Most of the time your opponent should do a speedling expand with 14 Extractor and 14 Pool. If this is the case speed will be done around 5 minutes 15 seconds. If you see no Extractors anywhere, Chrono out more Stalkers from your first Gateway instead of Sentries and keep up the Stalker aggression.
The Pressure Worked! I Feel an Allin Coming...
People allin me all the time from falling apart to a couple early Stalkers, or losing an overlord and overmaking lings, or whatever mistake they make early game. So in anticipation of an inevitable allin, you need to be prepared. After your first couple Warpins from your three Gateways and chronoboosts on your Nexuses, you should have enough money to invest into something. Your options are: tech, Gateways, Expansion. I suggest getting a tech structure and two additional Gateways if you feel an allin is coming at about this time. The safest would be a Forge + Cannon, and two more Gateways. This gives you some detection, but also allows you to invest into the later portion of the game with an upgrade.
On maps like Antiga and Shakuras I actually often opt for an earlier third base or fast Tech off of just 3 Gateways due to the narrow choke protecting me from Allins. This is something to consider. On maps with a wider natural such as Xel'Naga you will likely need to opt for more Gateways before anything if your opponent is not taking their third base.
In order to tell if the opponent is going to allin you or not, the best way is to get fast Hallucination and look for a third base. No third base means they are making units. If you feel confident, like I usually try to be, you can scout around the map with a probe or lone Zealot movements in search of a third base -this cuts the cost of Hallucination granting you 100 Vespene leave.
Follow Up
I usually like to follow this opening up with more map presence during the early to mid game transition. This will likely force Spines + Roach/Ling and let you keep their Drone count out of ridiculous ranges. From then on the sky is the limit! Just be sure not to be too passive, and don't blindly billow all the across the map with a rabble of Gateway units.
The time in which you should have the resources to invest in your next move should be after a couple Warpins from your three Gates and chronoboosts on your Nexus. Your options are: tech, more Gateways, or Expansion. Any can work depending on the situation. For instance you can tech and try to punish the Zerg's third and lack of tech, or expand and use defender's advantage against a mid-game allin.
Replay Pack:
- http://drop.sc/packs/391 - 3 Replays
- http://drop.sc/76362 - Loss vs allin followup; playing way too greedy by attacking rocks, and overprobing + teching at the same time.
- Please post up replays of trying out this opening! Discussion from examples and interaction with the original post by example is a great way to help create a quality thread. I'll post replays you submit to this list!
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Happy Birthday! Nice looking guide too.
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Happy birthday! Get some more videos up on the youtube channel... love your content!
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2 questions,
Firstly, your wall off doesnt protect your probes at the natural, isnt a wall off from ramp to nexus better? youll lose 2-3 probes before you can get over there.
Secondly, what is the advantage of this over a 2 gas expand? i would personally prefer the extra sentries and extra sentry energy. What is so worth sacrificing that energy and sentry count for?
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On December 19 2011 14:23 L3g3nd_ wrote:
2 questions,
Firstly, your wall off doesnt protect your probes at the natural, isnt a wall off from ramp to nexus better? youll lose 2-3 probes before you can get over there.
Secondly, what is the advantage of this over a 2 gas expand? i would personally prefer the extra sentries and extra sentry energy. What is so worth sacrificing that energy and sentry count for?
Good questions. By the time your probes are down there you'd want to move your army slightly away from that tiny gap and more towards the entrance where things are vulnerable. I'm sure I do this instinctively in the replays.
Secondly, re-read the Introduction section, I answered why one might use this over slightly earlier sentries.
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When it the optimal time to throw down a forge for upgrades and cannons at the natural (against roach/ling all ins)?
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On December 19 2011 14:32 Jackal888 wrote:
When it the optimal time to throw down a forge for upgrades and cannons at the natural (against roach/ling all ins)?
I'd say after you get 2 rounds of warpins + chrono off on your Nexuses. This is the time when the resources come in to invest in such a thing.
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Nice guide, I like your unique take on building placement at the natural. My question is how soon after the 2nd and 3rd gate do you typically get your forge?
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On December 19 2011 14:36 stokes17 wrote:
Nice guide, I like your unique take on building placement at the natural. My question is how soon after the 2nd and 3rd gate do you typically get your forge?
I just added another section about "I feel an allin coming" that answers that. Good question!
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This is a great build, and I think Protoss should do this more often than FFE. Personally,as a masters zerg player, I think 1 base openings like 1/3gate expand are much harder than FFE because I can't grab a third, especially on blizzard maps. This is just my opinion though, and from the zerg side, so I'm sure protoss have a reason to do what they do, but I think it puts the zerg in an uncomfortable spot where it's 2 base vs 2 base and they can't really get a third without massing lots of units first.
I would just like to add, that as protoss you need to scout zerg with a probe when planning on doing this build, and if you see Zerg went 14/14, then you can't do it, and you must resort to 5:30 expo 3 gate sentry expand instead. I'm not sure on the [i]exact/i] timings of it, but I'm pretty sure any gas before 16 supply also means you can't do it. I think if gas is after 18 supply you are safe to do this, since speed won't be out in time.
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Hmm. What are the significant advantages this brings over other builds? Does the expo get up quick than a normal 1gate expo? Do you think it's better than other PvZ fe options (1gate, 2gate stargate, 3gate)?
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On December 19 2011 14:40 Belial88 wrote:
This is a great build, and I think Protoss should do this more often than FFE. Personally,as a masters zerg player, I think 1 base openings like 1/3gate expand are much harder than FFE because I can't grab a third, especially on blizzard maps. This is just my opinion though, and from the zerg side, so I'm sure protoss have a reason to do what they do, but I think it puts the zerg in an uncomfortable spot where it's 2 base vs 2 base and they can't really get a third without massing lots of units first.
I would just like to add, that as protoss you need to scout zerg with a probe when planning on doing this build, and if you see Zerg went 14/14, then you can't do it, and you must resort to 5:30 expo 3 gate sentry expand instead. I'm not sure on the [i]exact/i] timings of it, but I'm pretty sure any gas before 16 supply also means you can't do it. I think if gas is after 18 supply you are safe to do this, since speed won't be out in time.
I seem to do fine against 14/14 speedling expand O_o
On December 19 2011 15:26 Oreo7 wrote:
Hmm. What are the significant advantages this brings over other builds? Does the expo get up quick than a normal 1gate expo? Do you think it's better than other PvZ fe options (1gate, 2gate stargate, 3gate)?
3 more probes on Minerals, thus earlier buildings on low ground, fast first Stalker.
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I like the overall build and how it utilizes sim city to prevent ling runbys. One thing I've noticed though is that in all of the replays, following the build, you are kind of flying blind for quite some time. Do you not think that hallucination is at least worth the investment to research? This is obviously outside of the scope of the guide since you are trying to share an opening and not an overall game plan, but I personally find myself lost when opening gateway first PvZ unless I'm using huarg's mothership build. So this is a nice new opening comparing to constantly passively one gate expanding.
Thanks again for the guide and happy cake day.
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On December 19 2011 15:46 CaptainHaz wrote:
I like the overall build and how it utilizes sim city to prevent ling runbys. One thing I've noticed though is that in all of the replays, following the build, you are kind of flying blind for quite some time. Do you not think that hallucination is at least worth the investment to research? This is obviously outside of the scope of the guide since you are trying to share an opening and not an overall game plan, but I personally find myself lost when opening gateway first PvZ unless I'm using huarg's mothership build. So this is a nice new opening comparing to constantly passively one gate expanding.
Thanks again for the guide and happy cake day.
Well I was really ahead in those games, so it didn't really matter if I actually had vision across the map or not. Trust me none of the movements were blind. Counting enemy units you see, noticing movement patterns, anticipating decision making -a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes that comes from experience.
Thanks for all the happy b-days!
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What time does your nexus go down? I believe a 'standard' 1 gate sentry expand throws down the nexus at 4:30 (maybe 5:00? Although I don't think so... pretty sure it's 4:30 at quickest).
I'd love to see how you hold against someone who goes 14/14 ling all-in. can you provide a replay, or we can do it online (belial.869).
I think there were a few games of... i believe leenock against some protoss on crossfire. I think it was naniwa on the 6oclock, losing very frustratingly, to leenock at 12, on that map. like one of his first gsl games.
I suppose if you wait on the nexus, like throw it down at 6:00 or 5:30 instead, you might be able to get it up. I think that's just a 1 gate expand that's delayed. I think a 3 gate sentry expand would be more economic than a 6:00 1 gate expand?
Maybe the key difference is when you are cutting probes. If you are placing a good sim city with those 2 gates, with cut probe production, maybe it works?
But I just took it as fact, based on experience and vods i've seen, that you can't 1 gate expand vs 14/14 or speedling openings in general. From what I understand, you'll both have 3 units out against 1 and 3 gate expands, but the difference is with 1 gate expand you wno't be warping in those 3 critical next units to deal with the mass lings from denying the nexus.
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Happy bday, Cecil, nice guide but I did want to ask: do you prefer this opening to a forge fast expand and why? I like the 1gate expand better myself but a lot of people have been telling me to ffe with a rationale of it being better economically.
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nice strat, i have been using such aswell on maps where FFE is tricky and ppl go gassless expo, as you said you get alooottt of all ins because noobies making to much lings =]
well written and happy birthday 
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Forgive my laziness - I'm unable to view the replays so if this is somehow answered in one of them, my apologizes.
How would this fare against a 11overpool/18hatching Zerg? I feel like if they see you place the pylon and then chase away the 2-4 lings with a stalker, they're going to send in an overlord. If the overlord sees everything the subsequent roach pressure and follow-up lings would at worst make you cancel the nexus and lose those 2 gates, putting you pretty behind. If the overlord doesn't see anything well you're in the clear I suppose. 
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1 gas and a stalker plus warp gate, do you have to wait till your second hundred gas to get a sentry, with sentries ariving so late can any form of pressure such as seven roach rush, any banling play (u have pics of xel, im thinking of nestea game where he comes in from back path). but it just seems scary to me to not have a forge or high sentry count with a fast expand. happy bday btw
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Happy Bday Cecil! I've been a follower of all your guides and I think they are great for any Protoss player, both new and experienced! This is somewhat out of the guide but can you explain:
1. Why you setup your buildings at your ramp like that where your Pylon is exposed? Just curious why you don't go for the traditional Gateway/CC Wall-off.
2. Is there a case where you wouldn't use this build (besides obviously 6 pools and the like where you see early pressure like that coming. Would you favor doing something else if you see something like 15 Hatch or an 11 Pool?
Thank you again all your help and keep up the good work!
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Thanks again for all the happy b-days! Also please post up replays of trying out the opening if you enjoyed the thread! It'd be cool to have a more example-oriented discussion as the norm of threads on TL. I'll even put up your replay in the OP
On December 19 2011 17:29 Mugya wrote:Happy Bday Cecil! I've been a follower of all your guides and I think they are great for any Protoss player, both new and experienced! This is somewhat out of the guide but can you explain: 1. Why you setup your buildings at your ramp like that where your Pylon is exposed? Just curious why you don't go for the traditional Gateway/CC Wall-off. 2. Is there a case where you wouldn't use this build (besides obviously 6 pools and the like where you see early pressure like that coming. Would you favor doing something else if you see something like 15 Hatch or an 11 Pool? Thank you again all your help and keep up the good work!
1. You do this to get your Gateways at the Natural easily and early. Also if lings try to attack this, free lings! Chase them away with your Zealot and Zealot/Stalker when the Stalker finishes, and plug the hole in your wall with the Probe you'll use to make your Nexus.
2. Don't use it on Tal'Darim altar due to the Natural. Other than that all current maps are fair game. If there's a 15 hatch that means delayed vespene, which like I said in the OP means more early Stalkers. Against 11 pool I'd likely chrono the first Zealot and get an earlier third Pylon, perhaps a slight probe production cut as well to get out an earlier Stalker (Chrono'd) after the Zealot.
On December 19 2011 16:30 Belial88 wrote:
What time does your nexus go down? I believe a 'standard' 1 gate sentry expand throws down the nexus at 4:30 (maybe 5:00? Although I don't think so... pretty sure it's 4:30 at quickest).
I'd love to see how you hold against someone who goes 14/14 ling all-in. can you provide a replay, or we can do it online (belial.869).
I think there were a few games of... i believe leenock against some protoss on crossfire. I think it was naniwa on the 6oclock, losing very frustratingly, to leenock at 12, on that map. like one of his first gsl games.
I suppose if you wait on the nexus, like throw it down at 6:00 or 5:30 instead, you might be able to get it up. I think that's just a 1 gate expand that's delayed. I think a 3 gate sentry expand would be more economic than a 6:00 1 gate expand?
Maybe the key difference is when you are cutting probes. If you are placing a good sim city with those 2 gates, with cut probe production, maybe it works?
But I just took it as fact, based on experience and vods i've seen, that you can't 1 gate expand vs 14/14 or speedling openings in general. From what I understand, you'll both have 3 units out against 1 and 3 gate expands, but the difference is with 1 gate expand you wno't be warping in those 3 critical next units to deal with the mass lings from denying the nexus.
Dunno when Nexus goes down. Replay against GM player doing a ling allin off of 14/14 in replay pack. Hold pretty convincingly. You should always be able to given a good sim-city in my experience. Ling allins only work against me if I'm caught out of position and off-guard.
On December 19 2011 16:42 RabidSeagull wrote:
Happy bday, Cecil, nice guide but I did want to ask: do you prefer this opening to a forge fast expand and why? I like the 1gate expand better myself but a lot of people have been telling me to ffe with a rationale of it being better economically.
I don't really like the pacing of FFE much. I can play both styles equally as I feel it's important to be a well-rounded player, but I honestly just like the pacing a 1 Gate FE puts the game in.
On December 19 2011 17:12 ElMacedonian wrote:
1 gas and a stalker plus warp gate, do you have to wait till your second hundred gas to get a sentry, with sentries ariving so late can any form of pressure such as seven roach rush, any banling play (u have pics of xel, im thinking of nestea game where he comes in from back path). but it just seems scary to me to not have a forge or high sentry count with a fast expand. happy bday btw
I don't think the Sentries are as late as you're imagining.
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I've seen this on HwangSing stream pretty often if someone wants to see executions and transitions.
Very goodjob Cecil, as usual, we all thx you
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Italy12246 Posts
*sings completely out of tune* Happy birthday to youuuu, happy birthday dear Cecil, happy birthday to youuuu!!
Anyway, thanks for the guide, i don't really have a refined pvz opening and this helps a lot.
The one gas come to think of it makes perfect sense, since as far as i know one gas can support one gate making sentries ^^
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I watched the replays.
In game 2 the guy was doing something weird (making an evo chamber? got supply blocked at 26) but he had enough units. He waited too long to push was all.
However your sim city was pretty crazy there on shakuras. It may have been possible to hold, I'm really, really not sure, maybe on maps you can choke up like that you can maybe get away with it, but I think that you would've died if he just attacked instead of clearing the watch towers, not gotten supply blocked, and just pushed earlier.
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I don't understand exactly why you would want to do this over a standard 2 gas sentry expand. Gas is pivotal in PvZ so collecting more faster is great and sentries are very solid for expanding quickly as they have convenient cost and abilities to do so.
It's much harder to hold pressure without sentries and the sentries won't delay your expo much compared to this if at all.
You'll reach mineral saturation using 1 geyser pretty quickly anyway that you might as well use the second geyser imo.. If they open speedling, which is quite common at maps where you don't FFE, you can't expo super quickly anyways so you're better off utilizing the second gas.
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Cool guide. I've been figuring out a way to use my micro/multitasking to my advantage to pressure on a 1 gas build.
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I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
Realistically, you'll only do this on maps like XNC and Metal where FFE is shaky against roaches and banelings, and those maps happen to be the maps where this opening is most vulnerable to speedlings.
I've done the opening probably a hundred or so games, and it's really hard to defend against ~20 speedlings that are timed to hit right after you start your nexus. You die if you leave your ramp, so your first nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled. So you have to wait until you have a force big enough to kill 20 speedlings, and then you have to try to defend your nexus from lings while simultaneously defending your ramp which is out of forcefield range from your nexus.
If you control well enough, you don't die, but your nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled at least once, and then it will be delayed further while you build a workable force off of 1 gateway.
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On December 19 2011 23:55 kcdc wrote:
I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
Realistically, you'll only do this on maps like XNC and Metal where FFE is shaky against roaches and banelings, and those maps happen to be the maps where this opening is most vulnerable to speedlings.
I've done the opening probably a hundred or so games, and it's really hard to defend against ~20 speedlings that are timed to hit right after you start your nexus. You die if you leave your ramp, so your first nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled. So you have to wait until you have a force big enough to kill 20 speedlings, and then you have to try to defend your nexus from lings while simultaneously defending your ramp which is out of forcefield range from your nexus.
If you control well enough, you don't die, but your nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled at least once, and then it will be delayed further while you build a workable force off of 1 gateway.
Yeah if you go 14/14 it's common to watch for pylon at the bottom of the ramp before spending the first inject, and that lets you cancel the nexus. 1gate owns vs pool hatch gas though.
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I know Artosis often comments that 1-Gate expand vs a speedling expand (14/14) means a guaranteed Nexus cancel vs a smart Zerg. Whether that is true or not I have no idea because I never go 1-Gate expand vs gas first, and I only Gate expand on XNC and Metal where a Zerg will almost always go Gas first.
What is your reasoning though for Gate expand vs a speedling expand though? I understand its merits vs a gasless expand (which is becoming more common due to FFEs being more standard nowadays) since it gives you a bigger window to do damage with stalkers, but in my experiences I can never really do that much damage vs a speedling opener since I won't have more than 2 stalkers by the time speed is done. The economic difference between a gate expand and FFE is not insignificant, and a FFE is actually stronger vs a gas opening (which is why zergs now delay speed vs FFEs).
I must say I do like that wall-off though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it that way before.
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On December 20 2011 02:07 Skyro wrote:
I know Artosis often comments that 1-Gate expand vs a speedling expand (14/14) means a guaranteed Nexus cancel vs a smart Zerg. Whether that is true or not I have no idea because I never go 1-Gate expand vs gas first, and I only Gate expand on XNC and Metal where a Zerg will almost always go Gas first.
What is your reasoning though for Gate expand vs a speedling expand though? I understand its merits vs a gasless expand (which is becoming more common due to FFEs being more standard nowadays) since it gives you a bigger window to do damage with stalkers, but in my experiences I can never really do that much damage vs a speedling opener since I won't have more than 2 stalkers by the time speed is done. The economic difference between a gate expand and FFE is not insignificant, and a FFE is actually stronger vs a gas opening (which is why zergs now delay speed vs FFEs).
I must say I do like that wall-off though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it that way before.
I can't speak for Cecil, but I will note that you have to choose between FFE and gate expand before you have any idea what Z is doing. Choosing between FFE and gate expand should be a response to the map, but it can't be a response to Z's opening. You can, however, respond to Z's opening by waiting for additional gates, tech or army before expanding. The question is how greedy you can get away with being.
And you're right that the stalker does no damage vs speedling openings. Speed finishes at 5 min which leaves roughly enough time for a chronoboosted stalker to get to Z's base, fire one shot, and immediately retreat.
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On December 20 2011 02:40 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 02:07 Skyro wrote:
I know Artosis often comments that 1-Gate expand vs a speedling expand (14/14) means a guaranteed Nexus cancel vs a smart Zerg. Whether that is true or not I have no idea because I never go 1-Gate expand vs gas first, and I only Gate expand on XNC and Metal where a Zerg will almost always go Gas first.
What is your reasoning though for Gate expand vs a speedling expand though? I understand its merits vs a gasless expand (which is becoming more common due to FFEs being more standard nowadays) since it gives you a bigger window to do damage with stalkers, but in my experiences I can never really do that much damage vs a speedling opener since I won't have more than 2 stalkers by the time speed is done. The economic difference between a gate expand and FFE is not insignificant, and a FFE is actually stronger vs a gas opening (which is why zergs now delay speed vs FFEs).
I must say I do like that wall-off though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it that way before.
I can't speak for Cecil, but I will note that you have to choose between FFE and gate expand before you have any idea what Z is doing. Choosing between FFE and gate expand should be a response to the map, but it can't be a response to Z's opening. You can, however, respond to Z's opening by waiting for additional gates, tech or army before expanding. The question is how greedy you can get away with being. And you're right that the stalker does no damage vs speedling openings. Speed finishes at 5 min which leaves roughly enough time for a chronoboosted stalker to get to Z's base, fire one shot, and immediately retreat.
Yes you do have to choose b/w Gate expand or FFE before you can scout the Zerg due to the initial Pylon placement, but as you allude to in a previous post, if your goal is a macro game you really only have an incentive to Gate expand on XNC and Metal out of the current (season 4) map pool, which gas first from Zerg is very common. Look how it breaks down:
1) Map favors FFE -> You FFE
2) Map does not favor FFE -> You Gate expand, scout Gas first, then proceed to 3-Gate expand
3) Map does not favor FFE -> You Gate expand, scout Pool or Hatch first, you can now 1-Gate expand
Thus it is quite rare, relatively speaking, to even have the option to 1-Gate expand in the current map Pool, assuming it is true a Speedling open can at least force a Nexus cancel. The frequency you can use this opener however might change with the introduction of the 2 new season 5 map with AFAIK fairly wide open naturals.
I guess my question was more regarding the OP seeming to attribute the strength of the opener over FFE due to the map presence you have with a gate expand. While this is true it is true only during the window speed is not done, and that window is so small vs a speedling expand that IMO it is simply not worth it.
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Happy bday. Can't wait to read this when i have time
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i watched that game against phone, really nice play. i was so inspired i tried it out and it worked like a charm. thanks cecil!
also happy bday!
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On December 19 2011 20:45 Belial88 wrote:However your sim city was pretty crazy there on shakuras. It may have been possible to hold, I'm really, really not sure, maybe on maps you can choke up like that you can maybe get away with it, but I think that you would've died if he just attacked instead of clearing the watch towers, not gotten supply blocked, and just pushed earlier.
On December 19 2011 23:55 kcdc wrote:
I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
On December 19 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
Please post up replays of trying out this opening! Discussion from examples and interaction with the original post by example is a great way to help create a quality thread. I'll post replays you submit to this list!
Lets get some example replays of this discussion then
Luckily I have one:
http://drop.sc/76362
Shows me over-probing way too hard against an allin and throwing away a solid game. Judging from this I'd say it's close, but if you edge over with a building or two more from your walloff with the Gateways you should be fine (notice my pylon for doing just this). You also might want to move the second Gateway to the right on tile to reach over even farther. Also I kinda threw away my Zealot too.
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On December 20 2011 06:40 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 20:45 Belial88 wrote:However your sim city was pretty crazy there on shakuras. It may have been possible to hold, I'm really, really not sure, maybe on maps you can choke up like that you can maybe get away with it, but I think that you would've died if he just attacked instead of clearing the watch towers, not gotten supply blocked, and just pushed earlier. Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 23:55 kcdc wrote:
I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
Please post up replays of trying out this opening! Discussion from examples and interaction with the original post by example is a great way to help create a quality thread. I'll post replays you submit to this list!
Lets get some example replays of this discussion then Luckily I have one: http://drop.sc/76362Shows me over-probing way too hard against an allin and throwing away a solid game. Judging from this I'd say it's close, but if you edge over with a building or two more from your walloff with the Gateways you should be fine (notice my pylon for doing just this). You also might want to move the second Gateway to the right on tile to reach over even farther. Also I kinda threw away my Zealot too.
from that replay it didnt really look like the speedling expand was the problem there. i think 14/14 speedling is definitely manageable, you just have to be careful with it
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On December 19 2011 18:20 CecilSunkure wrote:
1. You do this to get your Gateways at the Natural easily and early. Also if lings try to attack this, free lings! Chase them away with your Zealot and Zealot/Stalker when the Stalker finishes, and plug the hole in your wall with the Probe you'll use to make your Nexus.
Sorry I should have specified. I was talking about your high ground where you put your 1st Pylon on the high ground then finish the wall-off with the Gateway and the CC. Just wondering why you wall off that way instead of with just Gateway and CC?
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Heya Cecil,
im a high diamond player and as you like these gateway expands rather than the forge ones. Just wanted to ask if you have tried progressing into a 5 gate double forge in order to get your 3rd by using this build vs zerg? I was thinking that the faster upgrades could give u a stronger / bigger gateway force to get ur 3rd up and then tech once that is fully functional, or is it still better to go colo / ht / blink either of those 3 routes against zerg?
cheers
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On December 20 2011 11:53 Mugya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 18:20 CecilSunkure wrote:
1. You do this to get your Gateways at the Natural easily and early. Also if lings try to attack this, free lings! Chase them away with your Zealot and Zealot/Stalker when the Stalker finishes, and plug the hole in your wall with the Probe you'll use to make your Nexus.
Sorry I should have specified. I was talking about your high ground where you put your 1st Pylon on the high ground then finish the wall-off with the Gateway and the CC. Just wondering why you wall off that way instead of with just Gateway and CC?
Oh that's so the Zealot up top isn't reachable by Roaches on the low ground. Just an old habit.
On December 20 2011 12:18 Gugliz0r wrote:
Heya Cecil,
im a high diamond player and as you like these gateway expands rather than the forge ones. Just wanted to ask if you have tried progressing into a 5 gate double forge in order to get your 3rd by using this build vs zerg? I was thinking that the faster upgrades could give u a stronger / bigger gateway force to get ur 3rd up and then tech once that is fully functional, or is it still better to go colo / ht / blink either of those 3 routes against zerg?
cheers
I have not tried that. Sounds a bit strange to me, but I suppose you can pull it off against just Roaches. I'd imagine other tech like Muta, Hydra, or Infestor might be a different story though.
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Upon going gateway first builds, your scout reaches the zerg when you plant your gateway (9 pylon, first place you scout) and you see that he's about to go hatch first.
In such case, by the time your zealot arrives at the zerg's natural, his pool will be just finished and 4 lings will be produced. Now what do you do? A zealot and probe isn't going to survive long when there are 4 lings and more coming.
Speed finishes, you plant your Nexus, you have a zealot, stalker, sentry (second nearly done). Here is where your the utmost vulnerable, your survival hinges on your 2 forcefields (your first sentry won't have the energy for 2 yet). The 2 gateways are probably just about to be planted down. Remember, even when your warpgates are up, you don't have enough gas yet to keep up sentry production.
Alas, if the zerg does not capitalise on that timing window (about 45 seconds ish) then this build will work.
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On December 20 2011 14:52 Zariel wrote:
Upon going gateway first builds, your scout reaches the zerg when you plant your gateway (9 pylon, first place you scout) and you see that he's about to go hatch first.
In such case, by the time your zealot arrives at the zerg's natural, his pool will be just finished and 4 lings will be produced. Now what do you do? A zealot and probe isn't going to survive long when there are 4 lings and more coming.
Speed finishes, you plant your Nexus, you have a zealot, stalker, sentry (second nearly done). Here is where your the utmost vulnerable, your survival hinges on your 2 forcefields (your first sentry won't have the energy for 2 yet). The 2 gateways are probably just about to be planted down. Remember, even when your warpgates are up, you don't have enough gas yet to keep up sentry production.
Alas, if the zerg does not capitalise on that timing window (about 45 seconds ish) then this build will work.
I find that if the gas is delayed by much, two Stalkers out of the first Gateway can cause a lot of havoc. If speed is finished fast enough to not warrant two Stalkers, I attack cross-map with a Zealot/Stalker and focus Chrono on my Nexuses.
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happy birthday in late !^^
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Super useful! Thanks for the guide!
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Damn, nice guide. As a Zerg I'm reading this for insights into Protoss treachery 
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Canada13386 Posts
On December 21 2011 02:18 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 14:52 Zariel wrote:
Upon going gateway first builds, your scout reaches the zerg when you plant your gateway (9 pylon, first place you scout) and you see that he's about to go hatch first.
In such case, by the time your zealot arrives at the zerg's natural, his pool will be just finished and 4 lings will be produced. Now what do you do? A zealot and probe isn't going to survive long when there are 4 lings and more coming.
Speed finishes, you plant your Nexus, you have a zealot, stalker, sentry (second nearly done). Here is where your the utmost vulnerable, your survival hinges on your 2 forcefields (your first sentry won't have the energy for 2 yet). The 2 gateways are probably just about to be planted down. Remember, even when your warpgates are up, you don't have enough gas yet to keep up sentry production.
Alas, if the zerg does not capitalise on that timing window (about 45 seconds ish) then this build will work. I find that if the gas is delayed by much, two Stalkers out of the first Gateway can cause a lot of havoc. If speed is finished fast enough to not warrant two Stalkers, I attack cross-map with a Zealot/Stalker and focus Chrono on my Nexuses.
I've been playing with 1 gate FE with one gas after watching Artosis' stream
Its nice to see a guide written down so I can avoid the embarassing losses i've been having due to mass speedling and poor timing on my part (I was going off twitch vods and not even replays -_-).
Something to note for clarity purposes:
You do 1 zeal one stalker then get the sentry to be safe right? Would it make more sense to get 2 stalkers after the first zealot if they go hatch first (since speed will be delayed). Are you trying to time the sentry with the speed upgrade finishing for Z in that case? Or is getting 2 sentries (after stalker) always safer?
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I will be trying this build out tons, as I have been having a tough time with FFE lately.
First question: in your opening section, you list building a nexus BEFORE cutting probe production. Wouldn't you want to cut probe before getting the nexus to get it faster? Or is there something I'm missing about this opening?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 28 2011 12:43 charliexjustice wrote:
I will be trying this build out tons, as I have been having a tough time with FFE lately.
First question: in your opening section, you list building a nexus BEFORE cutting probe production. Wouldn't you want to cut probe before getting the nexus to get it faster? Or is there something I'm missing about this opening?
Without cutting probes i throw my nexus at 30. It works fine for me, at least for now.
Really brilliant opening i must say. I never did like FFE and i was getting sick and tired of my poor openings vs zerg, this opening is something i really enjoy studying through games and i will continue to use it. It's obvious how potent it is. Thanks Cecil.
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On December 29 2011 07:44 Mesha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 12:43 charliexjustice wrote:
I will be trying this build out tons, as I have been having a tough time with FFE lately.
First question: in your opening section, you list building a nexus BEFORE cutting probe production. Wouldn't you want to cut probe before getting the nexus to get it faster? Or is there something I'm missing about this opening? Without cutting probes i throw my nexus at 30. It works fine for me, at least for now. Really brilliant opening i must say. I never did like FFE and i was getting sick and tired of my poor openings vs zerg, this opening is something i really enjoy studying through games and i will continue to use it. It's obvious how potent it is. Thanks Cecil.
I don't believe I cut probes until I lay the Nexus! Check replays for verification.
On December 24 2011 22:02 ZeromuS wrote:
You do 1 zeal one stalker then get the sentry to be safe right? Would it make more sense to get 2 stalkers after the first zealot if they go hatch first (since speed will be delayed). Are you trying to time the sentry with the speed upgrade finishing for Z in that case? Or is getting 2 sentries (after stalker) always safer?
You get the Sentry because you definitely need it to be safe. Two Stalkers only works if you know Speedlings will be delayed enough to make a second Stalker worth the trouble i.e. 8 minute Speedlings. 2 Sentries after the first Stalker is what you do most games, and up in higher levels almost everyone goes 14/14 Speedlings, or fast hatch fast speed so I rarely make use of a second Stalker.
Edit: FUCK I WASTED MY 1337 POST SHIT OH WELL I HOPE YOU ENJOY MY ADVICE IN MY 1337 POST LOL
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I had randomly started doing this style only on Antiga because zergs seem to always double-expo on that map... but I'm glad someone with far more skill than I has done a proper guide to it!
I generally went with really early 3gate pressure, hitting up some colossus as soon as the nat was mining nicely. With the 3gate zealot/stalker pressure it really put Zerg players on the back foot, then once the colo is up, it's GG. Thanks CecilSunkure!
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Just got promoted to master division! .
The game was vs. zerg and i used this opening and guess what? Since i saw a late gas i knew i could harass with my zealot and stalker - the guy was totally surprised when i started walking around his base and killing stuff, he completely overreacted and made shit ton of lings! The rest was easy, i could have won the game any way i desired. Thanks again Cecil, i really like this opening, makes my zerg game interesting from the start.
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How would you fend off a Leenock style roach rush? It comes out before your extra gateways and before the forge.
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On December 31 2011 00:50 Lebzetu wrote:
How would you fend off a Leenock style roach rush? It comes out before your extra gateways and before the forge.
It's tough but you have to have good force fields basically. I've fended them off with good FF, chrono on the Gates and getting up the additional Gateways on-time.
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Hi, i have been trying this build out and i love it but i always am getting overrun by lings. If i don't face a mass ling attack which puts very far behind (forcing cancel on nexus) i am in a very good position but i really struggle not losing lots to an early attack when i'm trying to establish my expansion, which it feels like is a very common response to my zealot stalker pressure forcing lings.
Any tips on having better understanding if they are going to allin after i have to back off with zealot and stalker, or tips holding the actual attack.
Thanks
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On January 03 2012 23:19 Jev wrote:
Hi, i have been trying this build out and i love it but i always am getting overrun by lings. If i don't face a mass ling attack which puts very far behind (forcing cancel on nexus) i am in a very good position but i really struggle not losing lots to an early attack when i'm trying to establish my expansion, which it feels like is a very common response to my zealot stalker pressure forcing lings.
Any tips on having better understanding if they are going to allin after i have to back off with zealot and stalker, or tips holding the actual attack.
Thanks
First of all. Gas timing + 3min15seconds is when lings will have speed. Second. Get your build tight! No way you can be shorter than 2 sentries, stalker, zealot when the earliest push comes. Think of good positioning and pylon placement for every position, so you can have one choke that can be plugged with one force field. My example - antiga - gateways are connected to nexus, i throw pylon behind minerals so there is no room for lings to pass and then i need only 1 ff to stop or break in half incoming lings.
Also, try to read if your opponent is overreacting, and if you know lings are coming chrono gates and dont get supply blocked if you are having hard time stopping speed lings. GL
Personally, there is no greater feeling than seeing bunch of lings with this build, haha. Because i know opponent is tilting, but there is nothing he can do but hit his head on the wall. ^^
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Hey, Cecil, thanks for another great guide. I'm at work, or just about to start work really so I can't watch the replays, and am just wondering as to the timing of the Nexus as the natural? Also, doesn't mining off one gas impede Sentry production (although you should be able to afford the 300 gas for WG; Stalker; 2 Sentries by the time WG research finishes) and mean that you can't get Hallu at this stage of the game? How quickly do you get your other gases up considering you may want Sentries asap from your other gates when they come online?
Edit/ Nvm, just watched the replays. Thanks.
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Mid master protoss EU here.
I've been trying this build for a while because I'm tired of FFE but I can't win any game with it.
I do a slightly variation, after my nexus I make a gate and a forge instead of 2 gates, then I build two additional gates after I made either robo, twilight or stargate.
The opening goes fine but I just don't know how to continue after it.
When I ffe I know that I have to pressure the zergs' third (I usually do the +1 zealot + voidray timing), but when I use this build I don't know how to take a quick third or how to do a timing to kill the third.
I made a replay pack of last night pvzs...they're all losses.
Can someone give them a look and tell me if there's something in particular that I'm doing wrong?
Watching the replays myself I see that I suck with FFs and at scouting...
Any tip is well accepted.
Thank you
Replay pack (6 games)
Edit: Played some more games today, I scouted better and made better ffs (kind of :p)...here's 3 replays of 3 victories.
Replay pack (3 games)
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Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers.
I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested.
For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke.
I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries.
Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard.
Replays
I'd love for critisism and advice on the following:
1-gate expo into 2base all in
In this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third.
1-gate expo into losing everything
This game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball.
So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
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On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
I only watched the second game, but the 4gate pressure was kinda good as it forced units and you didnt lose anything so very good non-commital aggression, however you saw he only had lings and a couple spines the could mean only infestor or muta. If muta you need to get a third up very fast and get alot of cannons, you will never win on 2 base vs muta (ur third was too late so he could easily snipe it need cannans there quicker). I didnt like your continued aggression after the 4gate push at all, what you needed to do was scout the zerg and counter him. Oh and vs infestor you just need collusus they own infestor ling super hard.
My recommendation to you is do the 4gate push but also get hullusination and scout the zerg around 8 minutes to see his tech path, it is critical that you are ready for muta before they hit, or you wont win, this means third base cannons and temps on the way. Sorry I think I got a bit repetitive there.
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On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
I just saw the first game.
First of all pylon on 9 is more efficient than pilon on 10.
In my opinion you should practice the BO a little bit more...it's the third pylon that goes on low ground, not the second.
In that first game you were able to make the nexus that early because you didn't constantly make probes.
Also you shouldn't abandon this build if you see a 14 gas 14 pool. The nice thing about this build is that, if done correctly, it can hold a speedlings allin.
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On January 30 2012 20:11 AfricanPsycho wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?) I only watched the second game, but the 4gate pressure was kinda good as it forced units and you didnt lose anything so very good non-commital aggression, however you saw he only had lings and a couple spines the could mean only infestor or muta. If muta you need to get a third up very fast and get alot of cannons, you will never win on 2 base vs muta (ur third was too late so he could easily snipe it need cannans there quicker). I didnt like your continued aggression after the 4gate push at all, what you needed to do was scout the zerg and counter him. Oh and vs infestor you just need collusus they own infestor ling super hard. My recommendation to you is do the 4gate push but also get hullusination and scout the zerg around 8 minutes to see his tech path, it is critical that you are ready for muta before they hit, or you wont win, this means third base cannons and temps on the way. Sorry I think I got a bit repetitive there.
Thanks! That sounds like very solid advice.
Out of curiosity, if I scout he's delayed his third and is getting a large number of roach/hydra, do I delay my third and rush for colossus? I lost to a big push like this yesterday while I was trying to get my early third up.
I guess getting the hallucinated phoenix out before 8 mins would allow me to figure out how to react. Sounds good, thanks again!
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I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after.
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On February 01 2012 03:58 DoctorFunk wrote:
I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after.
I was wondering if someone could speak to this issue? I've been a big fan of this style of expanding for awhile now.. and I like to see an actual guide that smooths out my rough edges... my biggest problem though has been the zergs that simply mass speedlings and take me out...
I'm not sure if this is a macro problem or a map problem, or a micro problem? (Or all 3)
Any tips on this? I was thinking that maybe scouting a speedling expand by the zerg is necessary to be prepared.. but what is the proper response? Lots of cannons?
I feel like if my Nexus gets cancelled I've lost....
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It seems like the solution would be cannons, and that's my main problem with this build. If you need cannons anyways, it's likely that a ffe is a more direct and economical approach to getting that base up. The practicality of a or gate expand, in my experience, comes in the form of a strong gateway timing to either kill the third or all-in and straight up win. I've won countless games from a 6 gate after 1 gate expo. They just underestimate the strength of gateway units at that point, and underestimate the rate that the army builds up. Sure, you don't have the invaluable +1 that you get with a gateway push off of a forge expand, but you really do have sheer power. I haven't run a comparison to timings off of a ffe opposed to a gateway expo, but it certainly feels powerful.
That's just my 2.5 cents
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Depending on the timing of your push, you should still be able to get +1 off of a gateway expand -> push, although I think you would have to trade-off the number of gates though (especially if also dumping resources in Hallucinate - IMO, a must if going for a gateway expand). I think you can get +1 around ~9.00 if, say, Nexus down before 5.30 although you have to weigh that with the number of Sentries you want as well at that point in the game (4 Sentries could mean an even earlier +1 given constant chrono). I'm not sure you could support more than 3 gates though.
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On February 01 2012 04:06 Maverick32x wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:58 DoctorFunk wrote:
I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after. I was wondering if someone could speak to this issue? I've been a big fan of this style of expanding for awhile now.. and I like to see an actual guide that smooths out my rough edges... my biggest problem though has been the zergs that simply mass speedlings and take me out... I'm not sure if this is a macro problem or a map problem, or a micro problem? (Or all 3) Any tips on this? I was thinking that maybe scouting a speedling expand by the zerg is necessary to be prepared.. but what is the proper response? Lots of cannons? I feel like if my Nexus gets cancelled I've lost....
I have never seen a pro replay where they were able to save their nexus after 1-gate FE vs a speedling opener, although to be fair 1-gate FE is a relatively rare opener so the sample size isn't very large.
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Canada13386 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:41 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:06 Maverick32x wrote:On February 01 2012 03:58 DoctorFunk wrote:
I like this build a lot, it's my go to pvz opener. The only thing I really struggle with is mass speedling when I only have a few gateway units. Also, roach long all ins can be quite tough to hold on certain maps. Can't count how many times I've lost to a lesser player just because they went 14/14/ 20 hatch and built pure speedling after. I was wondering if someone could speak to this issue? I've been a big fan of this style of expanding for awhile now.. and I like to see an actual guide that smooths out my rough edges... my biggest problem though has been the zergs that simply mass speedlings and take me out... I'm not sure if this is a macro problem or a map problem, or a micro problem? (Or all 3) Any tips on this? I was thinking that maybe scouting a speedling expand by the zerg is necessary to be prepared.. but what is the proper response? Lots of cannons? I feel like if my Nexus gets cancelled I've lost.... I have never seen a pro replay where they were able to save their nexus after 1-gate FE vs a speedling opener, although to be fair 1-gate FE is a relatively rare opener so the sample size isn't very large.
It requires really precise timing and I feel that opening with this is much much better against a hatch first delayed gas opening as opposed to a gas pool before hatch opening.
Then again, to be fair I really like stargate expands on maps that forge FE is hard on.
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On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
Yes I still use this opening. My goto is FFE, but this is something I pull out often in successive rounds with the same person.
Your first game you had poor scouting. What's the point of checking his vespene if you ignore the timing in which he can have speedlings. You had about 1 minute 30 seconds to tromp around his natural with your Zealot/Stalker based off of the vespene timing scouted. You could have had even more time to tromp around if you were more diligent with your first probe on scouting his gas geysers. At 7-9 minutes is chronoboost time. You need additional probes then like no other. However I'm seeing a solid 50 energy on each nexus! That's like -4 probes, then add on the time in which your Nexuses were just plain unpowered and you're down by at least 10 probes just for not building probes. That's like a cloaked banshee wreaking havoc in a good player's base -that's your normal base. Probes are important! Imagine if you chrono'd and built your probes properly, and attacked accordingly in the early game. You'd have a solid 15-20 worker lead by ten minutes.
Second game, didn't scout gas timing and lost your initial units. No reason for that! 600 minerals at 6:20. What about spending that money? Your warpgate is late, nexuses are idle, you have a lot of extra supply. Have to tighten up your early game!
On January 28 2012 19:24 UmbeXCII wrote:Mid master protoss EU here. I've been trying this build for a while because I'm tired of FFE but I can't win any game with it. I do a slightly variation, after my nexus I make a gate and a forge instead of 2 gates, then I build two additional gates after I made either robo, twilight or stargate. The opening goes fine but I just don't know how to continue after it. When I ffe I know that I have to pressure the zergs' third (I usually do the +1 zealot + voidray timing), but when I use this build I don't know how to take a quick third or how to do a timing to kill the third. I made a replay pack of last night pvzs...they're all losses. Can someone give them a look and tell me if there's something in particular that I'm doing wrong? Watching the replays myself I see that I suck with FFs and at scouting... Any tip is well accepted. Thank you Replay pack (6 games)Edit: Played some more games today, I scouted better and made better ffs (kind of :p)...here's 3 replays of 3 victories. Replay pack (3 games)
From the larger replay pack: Game 1: Failed to scout vespene gas properly. What good is blocking the hatch going to do if you know he has no drones at his natural? If you had properly scouted his Vespene you could have just Chrono'd two Stalkers out and sat back on a Chrono'd nexuses with a Gateway wall at your Natural, with an early tech structure. He had no speed until 8 minutes, and you let him take a free third. You are also suffering from a lack of Chrono on your Nexuses around the same time the Platinum player above you in this post did. You need more probes!
Game 2: That forge is going to kill you against allins. You don't have time to get cannons up and it provides no army value. This game is a little better early game than the previous but your probe production is still heavily lacking. I have as many probes as you do often times a few minutes earlier than you do.
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On February 01 2012 06:12 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?) Yes I still use this opening. My goto is FFE, but this is something I pull out often in successive rounds with the same person. Your first game you had poor scouting. What's the point of checking his vespene if you ignore the timing in which he can have speedlings. You had about 1 minute 30 seconds to tromp around his natural with your Zealot/Stalker based off of the vespene timing scouted. You could have had even more time to tromp around if you were more diligent with your first probe on scouting his gas geysers. At 7-9 minutes is chronoboost time. You need additional probes then like no other. However I'm seeing a solid 50 energy on each nexus! That's like -4 probes, then add on the time in which your Nexuses were just plain unpowered and you're down by at least 10 probes just for not building probes. That's like a cloaked banshee wreaking havoc in a good player's base -that's your normal base. Probes are important! Imagine if you chrono'd and built your probes properly, and attacked accordingly in the early game. You'd have a solid 15-20 worker lead by ten minutes. Second game, didn't scout gas timing and lost your initial units. No reason for that! 600 minerals at 6:20. What about spending that money? Your warpgate is late, nexuses are idle, you have a lot of extra supply. Have to tighten up your early game!
Thank you Cecil, you're a boss
Being active with units in the middle of the map while macroing is something I have to practice. I tend to stop probe production and float heaps of minerals whenever I move out 
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Cecil, you are the sh*t (in a good way), will defo try this out and see what happens!
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if you have more replays of you using this build can you please post them
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Hi cecile. Im a plat player and I made a variation of this build my standard PVZ for certain maps where you can wall with 3 gateway sized buildings (Cloud kingdom, Entombed Valey, Shakuras )and/or with a small ramp close to the natural nexus position (daybreak, Antiga), and to some extent Taldarim Altar. Its really dependent on Sim city.
What I do is cut probes at 24 food and build a nexus, 1 pylon and 2 gates after that while chronoing my WG research. Finally, after that I get my assim and resume probe production (no chrono on nexus). What I get is a 6:10-6:20 WG timing with 3 warpin of stalkers making my attacking units a total of 5 stalkers, 1 zealot and one sentry which I attack with. A few have said it felt like a delayed 4 gate although I am just doing a 3 gate. Meanwhile, I can pump out probes non stop while teching (usually colossus tech to finish them off). Can you give some comments on this?
here is a replay with my friend who is also plat ( its peepmode with 2 games in it)
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Joon_(T)Raise_(P)Senthin_(T)Havyk_vs/18625
I do see some holes in my play in the 2 games we played like poor positioning, tech choices, and possibple flank opportunities for the enemy.
This is a replay where I didnt botch the opening but its vs an AI so its probably not much
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Joon_vs_(Z)Computer 2/18628
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Hey great guide! I've been playing around with your CvZ and I love it!
However, I've been having a lot of trouble with 1-base zerg all-ins (w/roach+ling).
If zerg opens pool first, my probe always dies at the awkward moment where they might or might not expand and I can never tell. Sometimes zerg will even bring a drone down to fake it. The main problem I'm having involves the simcity with the two gates on the low ground. If they one base all in, I feel like there's no way to protect those gates, esp. given the amount of sentries you have at the time. Against 2-base zerg, the sim-city is wonderful. Against 1-base, not so much.
So my question is: How should we scout, if our first probe dies. Should I send another scout before throwing down those two gates?
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On April 23 2012 02:24 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 05:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:33 Sated wrote:On April 20 2012 01:28 ZeromuS wrote:On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style? The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help. If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need. If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen. You're probably right having thought about it - 2base Carrier does seem more like something White-Ra would do and I don't really want to go for any 2base Carrier play; it's a bit too fragile for my liking With regards to this opening, what I've been doing is this: http://drop.sc/163637You'll have to excuse the late second gas (should've taken it after starting the Stalker), the supply blocks near the start and the indecision in the mid-game because I'm still feeling my way around the Twilight timing and the Robotics timing. What I'm sure of are the timings up until the third base is thrown down, and I'd probably add that I'm fairly sure about the Forge timing (although I should've chronoboosted +1 more, and the Forge should've probably been placed closer to the natural wall-off). From there, I figured lining the Twilight up with +1 finishing made sense... but Blink would've been far too late to deflect earlier Mutalisks in this particular case. I also have no way of effectively scouting until the Robotics Facility is up, so since I'm going for Sentries I should probably work Hallucination into this build somehow. Any advice would be great - like I say, I am still feeling my way around the timings since I don't have anything concrete (i.e. VODs) to work from. Here is a better example that I just played (against a Masters player!): http://drop.sc/163695The timings are tighter on the upgrades etc. and I think my sim-city is better in this replay. Making a wall-off at the natural (where the rocks are) instead of at the third seems better because it makes bouncing between the natural and the third easier, hence making it easier to defend both locations. Going up to 6gate +2 Blink Stalker before committing to a Robo was a good idea; Forcefields and Blink will keep you safe against most things at that particular timing. The poke that I did against their third as Blink and +2 finished was a good idea too, even if my poor sim-city at the third did leave me open to a run-by - this push revealed Roaches over Mutalisks (I think I could probably outright win against Ling/Muta if they'd skipped Roaches) and so allowed me to go home and throw down a double Robo. I could've gone double Stargate Carrier if I'd wanted to, but I'll save that for when I'm feeling braver. I could've gotten a Stargate sooner for a Mothership... and the Brood Lords surprised me because I lacked scouting... but I definitely felt much better this time around than the previous time around! Much work to do, but it is looking good. Don't know how it would do against Stephano-style Roaches, but no one is going to do that against a Gateway expand... right? I posted the above in the Protoss Help Me thread, but I figured I would ask about it here as well. Do you think that going for an incredibly fast third out of this opening is a good idea considering the passive manner in which most Zerg players want to play the match-up? And do you think I'm going about it in a stable manner? You mention fast third-bases in the thread, but don't really go into any specifics...
Have you tried this opening? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE
It is a gate expand that is much more economical (about as economical as a forge first FFE) than nexus after core. This is IMO the best opening if your goal is go for a fast 3rd nexus in response to a fast 3 hatch opening. Since it is still a gate expand you still have a faster WG which you can use to pressure or defend your 3rd with. I usually go pressure with 4 initial zealots and grab my 3rd b/w 6 and 7 mins (depends if I feel safe to throw down my nexus before my 2nd and 3rd gates). Since it is so economical you don't have to feel as pressured to do damage to the zerg. If you open 1 gas nexus after core you pretty much have to do some serious damage to stay on par, which isn't necessarily good or bad but you need some good stalker micro/multi-task to make it worth it IMO.
The only thing that has caught me off-guard while going fast 3rd nexus is the 3 hatch ling/baneling all-in (hits ~7:30). In that case you basically just cancel your 3rd and wall-up your natural (your initial zealot pressure should sniff this out). But 3 hatch ling/baneling gets the 3rd hatch slightly later than normal (~5 mins instead of ~4 mins) so just be mindful of that.
In terms of follow-ups after you secure your 3rd, I like to go twilight to get blink and +2 weapons since stalkers are pretty much good vs. everything. Then I get a later robo for obs so I can see their attach paths (very important in defending your 3rd) and also in case of burrow. Squeeze out an immortal or 2 vs roaches as well. I'm still wavering on if hallucination is worth it or not. Hallucination will get you faster scouting but it will delay your robo.
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On April 23 2012 07:32 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 Skyro wrote:On April 23 2012 02:24 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 05:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:33 Sated wrote:On April 20 2012 01:28 ZeromuS wrote:On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style? The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help. If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need. If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen. You're probably right having thought about it - 2base Carrier does seem more like something White-Ra would do and I don't really want to go for any 2base Carrier play; it's a bit too fragile for my liking With regards to this opening, what I've been doing is this: http://drop.sc/163637You'll have to excuse the late second gas (should've taken it after starting the Stalker), the supply blocks near the start and the indecision in the mid-game because I'm still feeling my way around the Twilight timing and the Robotics timing. What I'm sure of are the timings up until the third base is thrown down, and I'd probably add that I'm fairly sure about the Forge timing (although I should've chronoboosted +1 more, and the Forge should've probably been placed closer to the natural wall-off). From there, I figured lining the Twilight up with +1 finishing made sense... but Blink would've been far too late to deflect earlier Mutalisks in this particular case. I also have no way of effectively scouting until the Robotics Facility is up, so since I'm going for Sentries I should probably work Hallucination into this build somehow. Any advice would be great - like I say, I am still feeling my way around the timings since I don't have anything concrete (i.e. VODs) to work from. Here is a better example that I just played (against a Masters player!): http://drop.sc/163695The timings are tighter on the upgrades etc. and I think my sim-city is better in this replay. Making a wall-off at the natural (where the rocks are) instead of at the third seems better because it makes bouncing between the natural and the third easier, hence making it easier to defend both locations. Going up to 6gate +2 Blink Stalker before committing to a Robo was a good idea; Forcefields and Blink will keep you safe against most things at that particular timing. The poke that I did against their third as Blink and +2 finished was a good idea too, even if my poor sim-city at the third did leave me open to a run-by - this push revealed Roaches over Mutalisks (I think I could probably outright win against Ling/Muta if they'd skipped Roaches) and so allowed me to go home and throw down a double Robo. I could've gone double Stargate Carrier if I'd wanted to, but I'll save that for when I'm feeling braver. I could've gotten a Stargate sooner for a Mothership... and the Brood Lords surprised me because I lacked scouting... but I definitely felt much better this time around than the previous time around! Much work to do, but it is looking good. Don't know how it would do against Stephano-style Roaches, but no one is going to do that against a Gateway expand... right? I posted the above in the Protoss Help Me thread, but I figured I would ask about it here as well. Do you think that going for an incredibly fast third out of this opening is a good idea considering the passive manner in which most Zerg players want to play the match-up? And do you think I'm going about it in a stable manner? You mention fast third-bases in the thread, but don't really go into any specifics... Have you tried this opening? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEIt is a gate expand that is much more economical (about as economical as a forge first FFE) than nexus after core. This is IMO the best opening if your goal is go for a fast 3rd nexus in response to a fast 3 hatch opening. Since it is still a gate expand you still have a faster WG which you can use to pressure or defend your 3rd with. I usually go pressure with 4 initial zealots and grab my 3rd b/w 6 and 7 mins (depends if I feel safe to throw down my nexus before my 2nd and 3rd gates). Since it is so economical you don't have to feel as pressured to do damage to the zerg. If you open 1 gas nexus after core you pretty much have to do some serious damage to stay on par, which isn't necessarily good or bad but you need some good stalker micro/multi-task to make it worth it IMO. The only thing that has caught me off-guard while going fast 3rd nexus is the 3 hatch ling/baneling all-in (hits ~7:30). In that case you basically just cancel your 3rd and wall-up your natural (your initial zealot pressure should sniff this out). But 3 hatch ling/baneling gets the 3rd hatch slightly later than normal (~5 mins instead of ~4 mins) so just be mindful of that. In terms of follow-ups after you secure your 3rd, I like to go twilight to get blink and +2 weapons since stalkers are pretty much good vs. everything. Then I get a later robo for obs so I can see their attach paths (very important in defending your 3rd) and also in case of burrow. Squeeze out an immortal or 2 vs roaches as well. I'm still wavering on if hallucination is worth it or not. Hallucination will get you faster scouting but it will delay your robo. I have no interest in the FFE and YufFE openings outside of using them to do a 7gate +2 Blink Stalker all-in or some sort of 2base Immortal all-in. I do not believe they are the best way to open if you plan to play a macro game against a Zerg player and that's despite them being undoubtedly more economical than a Gate/Core opening. I know that sounds backwards, so let me tell you why: First of all, both the FFE and YufFE openings let the Zerg know that they can take a very fast third base without any risks. This is because they can instantly cross off the most dangerous Protoss early-game builds from their list of things you can do. Here is a list of things that they know you're not doing without having to properly scout you: - 4gate - 5gate Zealot/Sentry - 3gate Robo all-in (many varieties) - 4gate Warp-Prism all-in - 3gate Blink-Stalker all-in - DT expand Secondly, both the FFE and YufFE let the Zerg know that they can delay gas (and therefore Zergling speed) for a very long time. This is because they know that they're not going to have a Stalker they can't kill (without making far too many Zerglings) ruining their game-plan after only a couple of minutes. Admittedly, I'm yet to incorporate this early pressure into my games because my multi-tasking isn't that great, but I feel that this guide shows that Zealot/Stalker pokes can be really good against Zerg players who skimp on gas. This is an option that I want to have, especially against Zerg players who don't bother to Drone scout. Thirdly, although the FFE and YufFE are more economical than Gate/Core openings, any advantage you gain over a Gate/Core opening is cancelled out by how greedy the Zerg opponent is subsequently allowed to be. It's no use playing a more economical build if that build allows your Zerg opponent to only make Drones for 7/8 minutes. Anyway... My follow-up is also to get +2 and Blink as quickly as possible. I can have both of those finished by around 11:00 if my macro is perfect (but it's never perfect, so closer to 12:00 is more realistic). At this point I'll have 6 Gateways churning out Stalkers and I'll be throwing down my Robotics Facility ready for a 2robo Colossus transition. As I only do this three-base opening on maps with an easy to defend third-base (Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley), Forcefields and Blink Stalkers are usually enough to defend against 3base Roach spam or 3base Roach/Hydra spam (which is becoming popular again, at least in the games I've been playing). Needless to say, if I can't defend at this point then it isn't because of the opening, it is because of my micro. At the end of the day, if I can get to 2robo Colossus without suffering massive damage then I'll feel pretty good about the game. This is because by 16:00/17:00 I can have Colossus, Extended Thermal Lances, +3, lots of Blink Stalkers and around 6/7 Sentries. This is a similar composition to this build and, although I get there later, I feel I get there safer given that my opening forces the Zerg to play a build that isn't a balls-to-the-wall Stephano-style Roach build. Unfortunately, I don't possess the ability to hit all these timings because I screw shit up. This means that my replays won't show this build at its best, even if I have been able to beat Masters-level Zerg players with it. I still think it has a lot of potential on the right maps (and I think that it is better to go for a 2base all-in than to take a fast third on the wrong maps).
You have some serious misconceptions about all these openings. First of all a zerg player can hold a 4-gate with a fast 3 hatch build if they know what they are doing. Nothing actually stops a zerg from getting a fast 3rd hatch regardless of how you open. A smart zerg won't change his entire opening based on seeing a gateway expand because they can easily scout when you expand with lings and there's nothing you can really do to prevent that scouting.
And also with a YufFE expand you can actually hit a 4-gate WG timing @ 6:15 if you so inclined (obviously a lot of probe cuts necessary). What this should tell you is that your core is ~30 secs delayed to compared to going core after gate, if you wanted to hit that WG timing or pressure with stalkers. But honestly I'd argue that stalker harass is quite inconsequential relative to what you give up in terms of econ and resources for those stalkers. +1 Zealots IMO are much, much more effective at forcing a large amount of lings.
And lastly I find it quite amusing how you admit you don't even do the stalker pressure with this build, when that is essentially the only reason you would do this opening. The logic of a "threat of various 1-base strats" is moot since you expand with this build early enough where it is before a fast 3 hatch zerg player would start to actually respond to potential 1-base play. Most zergs go fast 3rd hatch in response to 1-gate FE all the time, this is the advice given on these very forums.
And since you mention you can "beat masters zerg players" I can only surmise you're in diamond, and TBH you probably have bigger issues with your play which you should focus on rather than trying to implement an opening that requires a high level of micro/multi-tasking (stalker micro) and going for fast 3rd nexus builds. Although if you haven't really done much stalker harass to begin with I suppose that is why you overestimate its effect. OTOH if you enjoy to play in this way or this is your style of play that you favor and just want to have fun then by all means have at it, but I would be a bit more open-minded about the merits of other openings. For instance if I were to play with this opening (which I have when this guide was originally put up quite a while ago) I would play very very aggressive all throughout the game and only go for a later 3rd after I felt I (ideally) did a significant amount of damage but know that I can't finish them off. The whole premise of the build is to be aggressive throughout (even the OP says to not be passive), so I think trying to get a fast 3rd with only minor stalker harass is a recipe for disaster as you move up the ranks.
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On April 23 2012 20:19 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:41 Skyro wrote:On April 23 2012 07:32 Sated wrote:On April 23 2012 05:27 Skyro wrote:On April 23 2012 02:24 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 05:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:33 Sated wrote:On April 20 2012 01:28 ZeromuS wrote:On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style? The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help. If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need. If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen. You're probably right having thought about it - 2base Carrier does seem more like something White-Ra would do and I don't really want to go for any 2base Carrier play; it's a bit too fragile for my liking With regards to this opening, what I've been doing is this: http://drop.sc/163637You'll have to excuse the late second gas (should've taken it after starting the Stalker), the supply blocks near the start and the indecision in the mid-game because I'm still feeling my way around the Twilight timing and the Robotics timing. What I'm sure of are the timings up until the third base is thrown down, and I'd probably add that I'm fairly sure about the Forge timing (although I should've chronoboosted +1 more, and the Forge should've probably been placed closer to the natural wall-off). From there, I figured lining the Twilight up with +1 finishing made sense... but Blink would've been far too late to deflect earlier Mutalisks in this particular case. I also have no way of effectively scouting until the Robotics Facility is up, so since I'm going for Sentries I should probably work Hallucination into this build somehow. Any advice would be great - like I say, I am still feeling my way around the timings since I don't have anything concrete (i.e. VODs) to work from. Here is a better example that I just played (against a Masters player!): http://drop.sc/163695The timings are tighter on the upgrades etc. and I think my sim-city is better in this replay. Making a wall-off at the natural (where the rocks are) instead of at the third seems better because it makes bouncing between the natural and the third easier, hence making it easier to defend both locations. Going up to 6gate +2 Blink Stalker before committing to a Robo was a good idea; Forcefields and Blink will keep you safe against most things at that particular timing. The poke that I did against their third as Blink and +2 finished was a good idea too, even if my poor sim-city at the third did leave me open to a run-by - this push revealed Roaches over Mutalisks (I think I could probably outright win against Ling/Muta if they'd skipped Roaches) and so allowed me to go home and throw down a double Robo. I could've gone double Stargate Carrier if I'd wanted to, but I'll save that for when I'm feeling braver. I could've gotten a Stargate sooner for a Mothership... and the Brood Lords surprised me because I lacked scouting... but I definitely felt much better this time around than the previous time around! Much work to do, but it is looking good. Don't know how it would do against Stephano-style Roaches, but no one is going to do that against a Gateway expand... right? I posted the above in the Protoss Help Me thread, but I figured I would ask about it here as well. Do you think that going for an incredibly fast third out of this opening is a good idea considering the passive manner in which most Zerg players want to play the match-up? And do you think I'm going about it in a stable manner? You mention fast third-bases in the thread, but don't really go into any specifics... Have you tried this opening? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEIt is a gate expand that is much more economical (about as economical as a forge first FFE) than nexus after core. This is IMO the best opening if your goal is go for a fast 3rd nexus in response to a fast 3 hatch opening. Since it is still a gate expand you still have a faster WG which you can use to pressure or defend your 3rd with. I usually go pressure with 4 initial zealots and grab my 3rd b/w 6 and 7 mins (depends if I feel safe to throw down my nexus before my 2nd and 3rd gates). Since it is so economical you don't have to feel as pressured to do damage to the zerg. If you open 1 gas nexus after core you pretty much have to do some serious damage to stay on par, which isn't necessarily good or bad but you need some good stalker micro/multi-task to make it worth it IMO. The only thing that has caught me off-guard while going fast 3rd nexus is the 3 hatch ling/baneling all-in (hits ~7:30). In that case you basically just cancel your 3rd and wall-up your natural (your initial zealot pressure should sniff this out). But 3 hatch ling/baneling gets the 3rd hatch slightly later than normal (~5 mins instead of ~4 mins) so just be mindful of that. In terms of follow-ups after you secure your 3rd, I like to go twilight to get blink and +2 weapons since stalkers are pretty much good vs. everything. Then I get a later robo for obs so I can see their attach paths (very important in defending your 3rd) and also in case of burrow. Squeeze out an immortal or 2 vs roaches as well. I'm still wavering on if hallucination is worth it or not. Hallucination will get you faster scouting but it will delay your robo. I have no interest in the FFE and YufFE openings outside of using them to do a 7gate +2 Blink Stalker all-in or some sort of 2base Immortal all-in. I do not believe they are the best way to open if you plan to play a macro game against a Zerg player and that's despite them being undoubtedly more economical than a Gate/Core opening. I know that sounds backwards, so let me tell you why: First of all, both the FFE and YufFE openings let the Zerg know that they can take a very fast third base without any risks. This is because they can instantly cross off the most dangerous Protoss early-game builds from their list of things you can do. Here is a list of things that they know you're not doing without having to properly scout you: - 4gate - 5gate Zealot/Sentry - 3gate Robo all-in (many varieties) - 4gate Warp-Prism all-in - 3gate Blink-Stalker all-in - DT expand Secondly, both the FFE and YufFE let the Zerg know that they can delay gas (and therefore Zergling speed) for a very long time. This is because they know that they're not going to have a Stalker they can't kill (without making far too many Zerglings) ruining their game-plan after only a couple of minutes. Admittedly, I'm yet to incorporate this early pressure into my games because my multi-tasking isn't that great, but I feel that this guide shows that Zealot/Stalker pokes can be really good against Zerg players who skimp on gas. This is an option that I want to have, especially against Zerg players who don't bother to Drone scout. Thirdly, although the FFE and YufFE are more economical than Gate/Core openings, any advantage you gain over a Gate/Core opening is cancelled out by how greedy the Zerg opponent is subsequently allowed to be. It's no use playing a more economical build if that build allows your Zerg opponent to only make Drones for 7/8 minutes. Anyway... My follow-up is also to get +2 and Blink as quickly as possible. I can have both of those finished by around 11:00 if my macro is perfect (but it's never perfect, so closer to 12:00 is more realistic). At this point I'll have 6 Gateways churning out Stalkers and I'll be throwing down my Robotics Facility ready for a 2robo Colossus transition. As I only do this three-base opening on maps with an easy to defend third-base (Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley), Forcefields and Blink Stalkers are usually enough to defend against 3base Roach spam or 3base Roach/Hydra spam (which is becoming popular again, at least in the games I've been playing). Needless to say, if I can't defend at this point then it isn't because of the opening, it is because of my micro. At the end of the day, if I can get to 2robo Colossus without suffering massive damage then I'll feel pretty good about the game. This is because by 16:00/17:00 I can have Colossus, Extended Thermal Lances, +3, lots of Blink Stalkers and around 6/7 Sentries. This is a similar composition to this build and, although I get there later, I feel I get there safer given that my opening forces the Zerg to play a build that isn't a balls-to-the-wall Stephano-style Roach build. Unfortunately, I don't possess the ability to hit all these timings because I screw shit up. This means that my replays won't show this build at its best, even if I have been able to beat Masters-level Zerg players with it. I still think it has a lot of potential on the right maps (and I think that it is better to go for a 2base all-in than to take a fast third on the wrong maps). You have some serious misconceptions about all these openings. First of all a zerg player can hold a 4-gate with a fast 3 hatch build if they know what they are doing. Nothing actually stops a zerg from getting a fast 3rd hatch regardless of how you open. A smart zerg won't change his entire opening based on seeing a gateway expand because they can easily scout when you expand with lings and there's nothing you can really do to prevent that scouting. And also with a YufFE expand you can actually hit a 4-gate WG timing @ 6:15 if you so inclined (obviously a lot of probe cuts necessary). What this should tell you is that your core is ~30 secs delayed to compared to going core after gate, if you wanted to hit that WG timing or pressure with stalkers. But honestly I'd argue that stalker harass is quite inconsequential relative to what you give up in terms of econ and resources for those stalkers. +1 Zealots IMO are much, much more effective at forcing a large amount of lings. And lastly I find it quite amusing how you admit you don't even do the stalker pressure with this build, when that is essentially the only reason you would do this opening. The logic of a "threat of various 1-base strats" is moot since you expand with this build early enough where it is before a fast 3 hatch zerg player would start to actually respond to potential 1-base play. Most zergs go fast 3rd hatch in response to 1-gate FE all the time, this is the advice given on these very forums. And since you mention you can "beat masters zerg players" I can only surmise you're in diamond, and TBH you probably have bigger issues with your play which you should focus on rather than trying to implement an opening that requires a high level of micro/multi-tasking (stalker micro) and going for fast 3rd nexus builds. Although if you haven't really done much stalker harass to begin with I suppose that is why you overestimate its effect. OTOH if you enjoy to play in this way or this is your style of play that you favor and just want to have fun then by all means have at it, but I would be a bit more open-minded about the merits of other openings. For instance if I were to play with this opening (which I have when this guide was originally put up quite a while ago) I would play very very aggressive all throughout the game and only go for a later 3rd after I felt I (ideally) did a significant amount of damage but know that I can't finish them off. The whole premise of the build is to be aggressive throughout (even the OP says to not be passive), so I think trying to get a fast 3rd with only minor stalker harass is a recipe for disaster as you move up the ranks. You'd be surprised how many people can't do things that most people on these forums take for granted. Sure, I agree that a 4gate is relatively easy to hold once you know it is coming, but presenting it as a possibility at least forces the Zerg to be more diligent with their scouting than they might otherwise be. Also, although a 4gate isn't particularly dangerous, some of those other all-ins are not so easy to hold for most players - Kiwikaki was stomping with the 5gate Zealot/Sentry build at a very high level for a pretty decent amount of time, 3gate Blink Stalker is great against Zerg players who try to delay gas too long because slow Zerglings can't do much about it, and Lobber's 3gate Robo all-in continues to be ridiculously strong despite how easy it is to scout. Essentially, my point wasn't centred around being able to 4gate because I wouldn't personally go for that kind of build in a PvZ, I was just pointing out that a FFE makes it very easy for a competent Zerg to play like a robot until the 8-minute mark. It is obviously much easier to play like a robot than it is to think about things whilst trying to macro. I think your point about the Stalker pressure is a bit silly. Although I don't personally implement it yet (mostly because I don't really have the eAPM for it), this guide shows that it can be a very effective pressure against the standard Zerg style of delaying gas as long as possible. Forcing the Zerg off their DroneDroneDrone track early in the game is more effective than most people are willing to realise, it has a lasting effect on their build order if you can force them to make too many Zerglings early in the game. My signature says I'm in Diamond, you shouldn't need to deduce it And yes, it is obvious from my rank that there are big problems with my play, both on the micro and macro side of things. However, these problems are not related to my openings as I'd have the same problems no matter how I opened. I'd also point out that I've never beaten a Masters Zerg with a FFE opening, take from that what you will... Anyway, I obviously want to get better and I'm probably past the stage were 2base all-ins are going to help me, but I'm ultimately not going to learn much if I don't find what I'm doing fun. Instead of trying to convert me towards "standard play", wouldn't it be better to either a) ignore me b) help me with my question? This guide mentions that taking a fast third is a possibility, I just want to know if I'm doing it in a manner that works within the framework of this opening or if I should be doing something else. For example, I realise that I need to be more aggressive, but that comes with feeling more comfortable about the fast third base. Zerglings can kill a base pretty quickly if they manage to score a run-by, and on most maps it is pretty difficult to ensure that you're not going to get run-by if you move out onto the map with 3gate aggression similar to that displayed by iNcontroL's 3gate Sentry opening (which this build is capable of).
I think what skyro was saying was that you are coming across as viewing FFE and YufFE as not good because it doesn't allow you to put pressure on the zerg. But skyro was pointing out that you can put just as much pressure on the zerg with these as you can with the 1 gate fe.
It goes back to why? Why put pressure on them? to stop them from getting a really good economy this can be done 2 different ways.
A. Kill drones, (or hatches)
B. Make them make units that are not drones
With the 1 gate fe with no pressure (which is what you said you do) that has the potential of B but its purely Meta (in their head, fear of an attack) while if you pressure you can do both A, and B.
Also with the other two FE styles it allows you to do both A, and B (granted slightly later) but especially with the current FFE into the 4 gate +1 zealots (I send my first 2 to their third if they take a quick one). I mean you can do a lot of different things from a FFE to put pressure on a zerg especially if they go for a fast third.
What skyro was trying to say (and excuse me if i am pressuming) is understand the reason's behind why you are doing whatever you do in this game and from their pick whatever suites your fancy. Don't just discount something because it has not worked for you.
Hope this helps not only with PvZ but with understanding how to think in games.
~YourGoodFriend
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You'd be surprised how many people can't do things that most people on these forums take for granted. Sure, I agree that a 4gate is relatively easy to hold once you know it is coming, but presenting it as a possibility at least forces the Zerg to be more diligent with their scouting than they might otherwise be. Also, although a 4gate isn't particularly dangerous, some of those other all-ins are not so easy to hold for most players - Kiwikaki was stomping with the 5gate Zealot/Sentry build at a very high level for a pretty decent amount of time, 3gate Blink Stalker is great against Zerg players who try to delay gas too long because slow Zerglings can't do much about it, and Lobber's 3gate Robo all-in continues to be ridiculously strong despite how easy it is to scout. Essentially, my point wasn't centred around being able to 4gate because I wouldn't personally go for that kind of build in a PvZ, I was just pointing out that a FFE makes it very easy for a competent Zerg to play like a robot until the 8-minute mark. It is obviously much easier to play like a robot than it is to think about things whilst trying to macro.
My point is that a zerg will spot your expansion and would be able to play like a "robot" regardless since you throw it down fairly early. It does not take much "diligence" to spot when a protoss expands with a ling or 2.
I think your point about the Stalker pressure is a bit silly. Although I don't personally implement it yet (mostly because I don't really have the eAPM for it), this guide shows that it can be a very effective pressure against the standard Zerg style of delaying gas as long as possible. Forcing the Zerg off their DroneDroneDrone track early in the game is more effective than most people are willing to realise, it has a lasting effect on their build order if you can force them to make too many Zerglings early in the game.
My point is far from silly. If you're not doing the stalker harass, regardless of the reason, then I don't know why you are using this opening. You don't play a build because of what other people can do with it, you play it because of what you can do with it. If you want to use the build then you pretty much have to do the stalker harass, so I would just force myself to do it even if my macro slips because you'll never improve this aspect of your play if you just ignore it.
And to be clear I'm not knocking this opening/build or stalker harass in general, I'm specifically trying to address your misconception about this opening/build. This is an aggressive pressure build and should be played like one, it isn't the best opening to grab a very fast 3rd (like ~6-7 min as you are saying). It's more of a pressure build that grabs a third if and when the game warrants it. More on this below.
My signature says I'm in Diamond, you shouldn't need to deduce it And yes, it is obvious from my rank that there are big problems with my play, both on the micro and macro side of things. However, these problems are not related to my openings as I'd have the same problems no matter how I opened. I'd also point out that I've never beaten a Masters Zerg with a FFE opening, take from that what you will... Anyway, I obviously want to get better and I'm probably past the stage were 2base all-ins are going to help me, but I'm ultimately not going to learn much if I don't find what I'm doing fun. Instead of trying to convert me towards "standard play", wouldn't it be better to either a) ignore me b) help me with my question?
First of all I don't think 2-base plays will no longer help you improve. They are still quite effective no matter how high you go. If you don't want to practice them or do them because it's not fun for you or whatever, that's fine. But I'm just trying to clear up your misconceptions. And I'm not trying to convert you toward standard play, whatever that is. I am trying to help you understand that getting a 6-7 min third with this opening is sub-optimal. That doesn't mean the opening is bad, it just means you're trying to turn this build into something it's not.
This guide mentions that taking a fast third is a possibility, I just want to know if I'm doing it in a manner that works within the framework of this opening or if I should be doing something else. For example, I realise that I need to be more aggressive, but that comes with feeling more comfortable about the fast third base. Zerglings can kill a base pretty quickly if they manage to score a run-by, and on most maps it is pretty difficult to ensure that you're not going to get run-by if you move out onto the map with 3gate aggression similar to that displayed by iNcontroL's 3gate Sentry opening (which this build is capable of).
The recommended follow-up is actually to push out on the map and apply pressure. The guide only briefly mentions taking a third, under the section where the zerg counter attacks you after your pressure. While I'm not the OP, I highly, highly doubt that means take a 6-7 min third after your initial stalker pressure. A zerg could spot your 3rd and know you are going to be fairly passive and can drone away. And while this is true of any extremely fast 6-7 min third, this opening just makes you further behind in econ than more economical openings while in all likelyhood doing less damage than +1 zealot timings.
And also hitting earlier is not always better, contrary to what some might think. A zerg doesn't actually get up on worker count (when you compare a fast 3rd hatch build vs. gate-nexus or FFE) until around the 7-8 min third mark if left alone, which is when 3 hatch/3 queen larve production kicks in. That is probably a better way to look at it. Go into your replays and look at the worker counts throughout the game. See how much damage you do, how much units you force. With this opening you'll probably be behind in workers the whole game if you went for a 6-7 min third. And that is pretty much my point, that IF your goal is to grab a 6-7 min third there are better openings for it. This opening/build is not meant to be played passively (which a 6-7 min third invariably is).
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However, they won't be doing the style they're most comfortable with. They will have to take an earlier gas against this type of opening, eventually screwing with the rest of their timings. My point is that they have to start responding to what is going on a lot sooner than they do against a FFE, which is undeniably true.
It is true some zergs don't know how to react to seeing a gate first, likely due to just not seeing it often. However vs zergs that do know what they're doing I'd argue they are not affected very much at all. While you can get earlier stalkers out, any potential mid-game push is much weaker. It's a trade-off, basically.
Also both your points apply to YufFE as well. It starts gate first and can pressure much faster than FFE. This is why I suggested it if you don't like to FFE. It has the econ of a forge first FFE with the potential to hit very fast tech timings (depending on how you want to play it). It's the best of both worlds IMO. I assume you've never tried YufFE (or gate-nexus) because you seem to group it together with FFE, but I really think you'd like it based on what seems to be your preferred playstyle.
For the nth time, it's not that I intend to continue playing this build passively and it's not that I don't understand that this opening needs to be played more aggressively, it's simply that I'm not being aggressive yet. I fully intend to start implementing this aggression as I continue opening in this manner, there's just more important things to get comfortable with first (like building shit). Stop making the same point over and over when it is clear that this point is only applicable if you purposefully choose to mis-read what I am saying.
Well what I like to do is practice a build order vs the AI until I get comfortable with it before playing other players. It's much more efficient that way. Use the time playing other players as practice for things you can't do vs the AI, i.e multi-tasking/micro. And I'm not knocking your lack of micro/aggressiveness/whatever, I was pointing out that I do not believe grabbing a super fast 3rd goes against the nature of this opening.
Even if you take an earlier second gas, you will not have to wait long to have enough minerals to build a third Nexus directly after getting 3 Sentries from your newly transformed Warpgates. Or before getting those Sentries. Your subsequent Stalker production is slowed down, but it's slowed down no matter what Gateway opening you use since you can't actually afford 3 Gateways worth of Stalker production w/ Pylons and Probes until the natural becomes more saturated. Pressuring at this point would be just the same as pressuring from a 3gate Sentry opening, except you've got a third Nexus...
I fail to see how it is inefficient if done correctly: I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly but I'm sure there is a way to do to correctly.
What I mean by suboptimal is that you will have a harder time defending your 3rd vs going YufFE. You will simply have less stuff to defend. Whether the zerg goes into pure macro mode and outmacros you or tries to bust your 3rd early you are simply worse off compared to if you went YufFE into zealot pressure into 3rd since you have less econ from the start, you're probably getting your 3rd later compared to YufFE, and you probably didn't do as much damage with your stalkers compared to +1 zealots. YufFE opening you can get 4 +1 zealots with warpgate done behind 3 or 4 gates around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on if you want to cut probes or not.
You can push out on the map and apply pressure. You have a lot of Forcefields after warping in the first 3 Sentries from your Warpgates (5 Sentries total) and you can warp-in additional aggressive Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers if you have a proxy Pylon ready. I might not personally feel comfortable doing this yet, but it is possible to do this whilst taking the fast third. My only fear is the opponent going for a blind Roach/Ling all-in, surrounding all my stuff and flat-out killing me... but I'd have the same fear with any Gateway opening, so that's hardly specific to what I'm trying to do.
If you grab a 6-7 min third you just don't have enough of a force to apply good pressure. You don't have the resources. Your army would be at risk around this time due to ling speed being completed and if your army is out on the field you can easily get surrounded and just lose the game.
In regards to your concern about roach/ling all-in, first of all you shouldn't be grabbing your third unless you see a fast 3rd hatch from zerg. Second this opening is probably one of the best builds at sniffing out a roach/ling all-in due to your map presence. If you see roaches out on the field b/w 6-7 mins it's almost a sure thing he went for an all-in. Another big tell is his drone count at his natural, which you should see with your stalker harass.
edit: Also I'm not even sure the OP still uses this opening. A lot has changed in the 4 months since this was posted.
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Cecil ! It'S been a while happy birthday, and thx for the guide ill be sure to give this a shot. Your old guides helped me soo much already.
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On April 24 2012 05:14 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:49 Skyro wrote:However, they won't be doing the style they're most comfortable with. They will have to take an earlier gas against this type of opening, eventually screwing with the rest of their timings. My point is that they have to start responding to what is going on a lot sooner than they do against a FFE, which is undeniably true. It is true some zergs don't know how to react to seeing a gate first, likely due to just not seeing it often. However vs zergs that do know what they're doing I'd argue they are not affected very much at all. While you can get earlier stalkers out, any potential mid-game push is much weaker. It's a trade-off, basically. Also both your points apply to YufFE as well. It starts gate first and can pressure much faster than FFE. This is why I suggested it if you don't like to FFE. It has the econ of a forge first FFE with the potential to hit very fast tech timings (depending on how you want to play it). It's the best of both worlds IMO. I assume you've never tried YufFE (or gate-nexus) because you seem to group it together with FFE, but I really think you'd like it based on what seems to be your preferred playstyle. For the nth time, it's not that I intend to continue playing this build passively and it's not that I don't understand that this opening needs to be played more aggressively, it's simply that I'm not being aggressive yet. I fully intend to start implementing this aggression as I continue opening in this manner, there's just more important things to get comfortable with first (like building shit). Stop making the same point over and over when it is clear that this point is only applicable if you purposefully choose to mis-read what I am saying. Well what I like to do is practice a build order vs the AI until I get comfortable with it before playing other players. It's much more efficient that way. Use the time playing other players as practice for things you can't do vs the AI, i.e multi-tasking/micro. And I'm not knocking your lack of micro/aggressiveness/whatever, I was pointing out that I do not believe grabbing a super fast 3rd goes against the nature of this opening. Even if you take an earlier second gas, you will not have to wait long to have enough minerals to build a third Nexus directly after getting 3 Sentries from your newly transformed Warpgates. Or before getting those Sentries. Your subsequent Stalker production is slowed down, but it's slowed down no matter what Gateway opening you use since you can't actually afford 3 Gateways worth of Stalker production w/ Pylons and Probes until the natural becomes more saturated. Pressuring at this point would be just the same as pressuring from a 3gate Sentry opening, except you've got a third Nexus...
I fail to see how it is inefficient if done correctly: I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly but I'm sure there is a way to do to correctly. What I mean by suboptimal is that you will have a harder time defending your 3rd vs going YufFE. You will simply have less stuff to defend. Whether the zerg goes into pure macro mode and outmacros you or tries to bust your 3rd early you are simply worse off compared to if you went YufFE into zealot pressure into 3rd since you have less econ from the start, you're probably getting your 3rd later compared to YufFE, and you probably didn't do as much damage with your stalkers compared to +1 zealots. YufFE opening you can get 4 +1 zealots with warpgate done behind 3 or 4 gates around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on if you want to cut probes or not. You can push out on the map and apply pressure. You have a lot of Forcefields after warping in the first 3 Sentries from your Warpgates (5 Sentries total) and you can warp-in additional aggressive Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers if you have a proxy Pylon ready. I might not personally feel comfortable doing this yet, but it is possible to do this whilst taking the fast third. My only fear is the opponent going for a blind Roach/Ling all-in, surrounding all my stuff and flat-out killing me... but I'd have the same fear with any Gateway opening, so that's hardly specific to what I'm trying to do. If you grab a 6-7 min third you just don't have enough of a force to apply good pressure. You don't have the resources. Your army would be at risk around this time due to ling speed being completed and if your army is out on the field you can easily get surrounded and just lose the game. In regards to your concern about roach/ling all-in, first of all you shouldn't be grabbing your third unless you see a fast 3rd hatch from zerg. Second this opening is probably one of the best builds at sniffing out a roach/ling all-in due to your map presence. If you see roaches out on the field b/w 6-7 mins it's almost a sure thing he went for an all-in. Another big tell is his drone count at his natural, which you should see with your stalker harass. edit: Also I'm not even sure the OP still uses this opening. A lot has changed in the 4 months since this was posted. Okay then, time for more aggressiveness... which is screwing with my build order immensely since I only have ~100 APM, but whatever. It's probably worth it, and this build does require that I play more aggressively than I have been with this fast third nonsense thus far. + Show Spoiler [Replays] +http://drop.sc/165602 - Zealot/Stalker poke kills a Queen and forces far too many Lings. I take a fast third whilst poking again with a 3gate Sentry/Stalker force, which manages to kill their third base. I kill their third base again with a +2 Blink Stalker timing, but then lose too many Stalkers to Zerglings by being greedy. The damage is done, though, and Zerg goes for a desperation Baneling bust (!?) that fails to do any real damage. http://drop.sc/165603 - The Zerg blocks my gas so I go Zealot/Stalker/Stalker instead of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry. The Zealot/Stalker/Stalker poke doesn't really do much besides forcing them to make too many Zerglings, but those Zerglings could've been 5/6 Drones instead so I suppose this is indirect damage. My build is really scattered because of the early second gas being blocked and I end up getting my Robotics Facility pretty late but meh... The game ends when I deathballdeathballdeathballdeathball my way to victory. http://drop.sc/165604 - I don't do a Zealot/Stalker poke. However, my Sentry/Stalker follow up makes them leave when they realise they can't save their third (because they've just made a wave of Drones). My Probe production is awful and so Zerg may be 8 Drones ahead when they leave, but to get those 8 Drones they would've had to trade their third base anyway. I guess this is an extreme example of what happens when the Zerg player doesn't react to what you're doing and tries to only make Drones... Maybe all the Zerg players I go up against are just terrible? But I'm terrible, too, and since I'm having quite a bit of success with this against people in my skill bracket I'm going to keep on doing it (these replays are 2 Diamond players and a Platinum player, just so everyone knows. The earlier ones I posted were a Masters and a Diamond player). I just know there has to be a smoother way to do this, but it's hard to tell where it should be smoother when my build order is all over the place due to my lack of multi-tasking ability. Kinda frustrating, to be honest!
Yeah those zergs were pretty terrible TBH. I honestly have no idea what they were doing because they applied no pressure nor did they even macro well. I honestly feel a good zerg could bust that third of yours every time. You expand before even scouting the zerg 3rd even. I think a good rule of thumb is don't expand before the zerg unless you really know what you're doing.
But that aside there are a few things I noticed. If you scout no gas I would make a 2nd stalker for more harass potential. In all those games you scout no gas and this could've been taken advantage of. Remember, that is the whole frigging point of this opening, the stalker harass, so you want to maximize this.
I also think you can scout a lot later to help your econ a little bit. You could easily scout @ 15 or 16 with this opening. And I still feel you're way better off being more aggressive mid game with this opening than getting that a third that early, but whatever floats your boat.
You also want to mix in more zealots early. You switch out of zealots after you force roaches. Forcing roaches is a big deal because it delays tech like mutas or infestors which could spell disaster for you. Most zergs from my experiences don't do late 3rd hatch build like that as it is frankly a pretty terrible build. It's either fast 3rd hatch or 2-base tech. Like in those games where they went late 3rd hatch you could easily denied it by just mixing in more zealots in your composition, then run him over with +2 blink stalker/sentry and not even have to expand at all. It's like the old saying goes if you're on equal bases as zerg you're pretty much ahead.
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On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool.
FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though.
Not true, but then again pretty much the last 15 posts in this thread all contain things that aren't true.
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On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though.
Free win is an exageration. But i gladly take your 7 pool instead the "3 base roach +60 drones 12 min max into infestor/muta tech". And there we all can agree that at high level PvZ is as close to free win as we can get.
Edit @Monk: please don't lose your faith on the P comunity. I agree that a lot of crappy almost ruin several threads by firmly stating wrong info instead of just humble comenting. But you have the "blue light", compared to others, keep enlighting and reroute wrong posts please.
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United States8476 Posts
I don't have time to correct every single misinformed thing anyone says; it's not my job. I already post enough.
Edit @Monk: please don't lose your faith on the P comunity. I agree that a lot of crappy almost ruin several threads by firmly stating wrong info instead of just humble comenting.
Yea, this annoys me the most. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't back it up with a confident voice. Otherwise it's just the misinformed leading the uninformed, people who don't know any better. And there's too much of it going around to correct at every instance.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 24 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 22:04 NrGmonk wrote:I don't have time to correct every single misinformed thing anyone says; it's not my job. I already post enough. Edit @Monk: please don't lose your faith on the P comunity. I agree that a lot of crappy almost ruin several threads by firmly stating wrong info instead of just humble comenting. Yea, this annoys me the most. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't back it up with a confident voice. Otherwise it's just the misinformed leading the uninformed, people who don't know any better. And there's too much of it going around to correct at every instance. I didn't mean you should go around correcting everything. But if you have time to post to deride people, you have time to correct them.
I already said what you said isn't true. That took 30 seconds. Correcting everything would take around 10 minutes.
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On April 24 2012 21:40 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though. Not true, but then again pretty much the last 15 posts in this thread all contain things that aren't true.
You should watch some replays with bly in it.
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On April 24 2012 21:50 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:40 NrGmonk wrote:On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though. Not true, but then again pretty much the last 15 posts in this thread all contain things that aren't true. People wouldn't ramble on about their self-perceived bollocks for as long if supposed blue-posters gave them with more than an off-hand dismissal =P
Well here's why no 7 pool can ever get an advantage against FFE if scouted:
1) Even if Z only makes 6 lings, you have 20 probes when Z has 12 drones
2) Your cannon should be done early enough to only lose 3-4 probes even with godawful micro
3) With proper placement, you can build your gateway, first 3 pylons, assimilator and cyber core without allowing lings to get free kills on any of them
4) Your scouting probe can go LOL and place a pylon at their natural
It's basically GG as long as you don't mess any of this up. You'll be way ahead on workers, and you force their lings to come back and kill the pylon if they want to expand reasonable early. If you're losing to early pools it's because your building placement is horrible, you don't know how to scout or you are forgetting pylons.
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On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 10:56 Skyro wrote:On April 24 2012 05:14 Sated wrote:On April 24 2012 02:49 Skyro wrote:However, they won't be doing the style they're most comfortable with. They will have to take an earlier gas against this type of opening, eventually screwing with the rest of their timings. My point is that they have to start responding to what is going on a lot sooner than they do against a FFE, which is undeniably true. It is true some zergs don't know how to react to seeing a gate first, likely due to just not seeing it often. However vs zergs that do know what they're doing I'd argue they are not affected very much at all. While you can get earlier stalkers out, any potential mid-game push is much weaker. It's a trade-off, basically. Also both your points apply to YufFE as well. It starts gate first and can pressure much faster than FFE. This is why I suggested it if you don't like to FFE. It has the econ of a forge first FFE with the potential to hit very fast tech timings (depending on how you want to play it). It's the best of both worlds IMO. I assume you've never tried YufFE (or gate-nexus) because you seem to group it together with FFE, but I really think you'd like it based on what seems to be your preferred playstyle. For the nth time, it's not that I intend to continue playing this build passively and it's not that I don't understand that this opening needs to be played more aggressively, it's simply that I'm not being aggressive yet. I fully intend to start implementing this aggression as I continue opening in this manner, there's just more important things to get comfortable with first (like building shit). Stop making the same point over and over when it is clear that this point is only applicable if you purposefully choose to mis-read what I am saying. Well what I like to do is practice a build order vs the AI until I get comfortable with it before playing other players. It's much more efficient that way. Use the time playing other players as practice for things you can't do vs the AI, i.e multi-tasking/micro. And I'm not knocking your lack of micro/aggressiveness/whatever, I was pointing out that I do not believe grabbing a super fast 3rd goes against the nature of this opening. Even if you take an earlier second gas, you will not have to wait long to have enough minerals to build a third Nexus directly after getting 3 Sentries from your newly transformed Warpgates. Or before getting those Sentries. Your subsequent Stalker production is slowed down, but it's slowed down no matter what Gateway opening you use since you can't actually afford 3 Gateways worth of Stalker production w/ Pylons and Probes until the natural becomes more saturated. Pressuring at this point would be just the same as pressuring from a 3gate Sentry opening, except you've got a third Nexus...
I fail to see how it is inefficient if done correctly: I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly but I'm sure there is a way to do to correctly. What I mean by suboptimal is that you will have a harder time defending your 3rd vs going YufFE. You will simply have less stuff to defend. Whether the zerg goes into pure macro mode and outmacros you or tries to bust your 3rd early you are simply worse off compared to if you went YufFE into zealot pressure into 3rd since you have less econ from the start, you're probably getting your 3rd later compared to YufFE, and you probably didn't do as much damage with your stalkers compared to +1 zealots. YufFE opening you can get 4 +1 zealots with warpgate done behind 3 or 4 gates around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on if you want to cut probes or not. You can push out on the map and apply pressure. You have a lot of Forcefields after warping in the first 3 Sentries from your Warpgates (5 Sentries total) and you can warp-in additional aggressive Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers if you have a proxy Pylon ready. I might not personally feel comfortable doing this yet, but it is possible to do this whilst taking the fast third. My only fear is the opponent going for a blind Roach/Ling all-in, surrounding all my stuff and flat-out killing me... but I'd have the same fear with any Gateway opening, so that's hardly specific to what I'm trying to do. If you grab a 6-7 min third you just don't have enough of a force to apply good pressure. You don't have the resources. Your army would be at risk around this time due to ling speed being completed and if your army is out on the field you can easily get surrounded and just lose the game. In regards to your concern about roach/ling all-in, first of all you shouldn't be grabbing your third unless you see a fast 3rd hatch from zerg. Second this opening is probably one of the best builds at sniffing out a roach/ling all-in due to your map presence. If you see roaches out on the field b/w 6-7 mins it's almost a sure thing he went for an all-in. Another big tell is his drone count at his natural, which you should see with your stalker harass. edit: Also I'm not even sure the OP still uses this opening. A lot has changed in the 4 months since this was posted. Okay then, time for more aggressiveness... which is screwing with my build order immensely since I only have ~100 APM, but whatever. It's probably worth it, and this build does require that I play more aggressively than I have been with this fast third nonsense thus far. + Show Spoiler [Replays] +http://drop.sc/165602 - Zealot/Stalker poke kills a Queen and forces far too many Lings. I take a fast third whilst poking again with a 3gate Sentry/Stalker force, which manages to kill their third base. I kill their third base again with a +2 Blink Stalker timing, but then lose too many Stalkers to Zerglings by being greedy. The damage is done, though, and Zerg goes for a desperation Baneling bust (!?) that fails to do any real damage. http://drop.sc/165603 - The Zerg blocks my gas so I go Zealot/Stalker/Stalker instead of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry. The Zealot/Stalker/Stalker poke doesn't really do much besides forcing them to make too many Zerglings, but those Zerglings could've been 5/6 Drones instead so I suppose this is indirect damage. My build is really scattered because of the early second gas being blocked and I end up getting my Robotics Facility pretty late but meh... The game ends when I deathballdeathballdeathballdeathball my way to victory. http://drop.sc/165604 - I don't do a Zealot/Stalker poke. However, my Sentry/Stalker follow up makes them leave when they realise they can't save their third (because they've just made a wave of Drones). My Probe production is awful and so Zerg may be 8 Drones ahead when they leave, but to get those 8 Drones they would've had to trade their third base anyway. I guess this is an extreme example of what happens when the Zerg player doesn't react to what you're doing and tries to only make Drones... Maybe all the Zerg players I go up against are just terrible? But I'm terrible, too, and since I'm having quite a bit of success with this against people in my skill bracket I'm going to keep on doing it (these replays are 2 Diamond players and a Platinum player, just so everyone knows. The earlier ones I posted were a Masters and a Diamond player). I just know there has to be a smoother way to do this, but it's hard to tell where it should be smoother when my build order is all over the place due to my lack of multi-tasking ability. Kinda frustrating, to be honest! Yeah those zergs were pretty terrible TBH. I honestly have no idea what they were doing because they applied no pressure nor did they even macro well. I honestly feel a good zerg could bust that third of yours every time. You expand before even scouting the zerg 3rd even. I think a good rule of thumb is don't expand before the zerg unless you really know what you're doing. But that aside there are a few things I noticed. If you scout no gas I would make a 2nd stalker for more harass potential. In all those games you scout no gas and this could've been taken advantage of. Remember, that is the whole frigging point of this opening, the stalker harass, so you want to maximize this. I also think you can scout a lot later to help your econ a little bit. You could easily scout @ 15 or 16 with this opening. And I still feel you're way better off being more aggressive mid game with this opening than getting that a third that early, but whatever floats your boat. You also want to mix in more zealots early. You switch out of zealots after you force roaches. Forcing roaches is a big deal because it delays tech like mutas or infestors which could spell disaster for you. Most zergs from my experiences don't do late 3rd hatch build like that as it is frankly a pretty terrible build. It's either fast 3rd hatch or 2-base tech. Like in those games where they went late 3rd hatch you could easily denied it by just mixing in more zealots in your composition, then run him over with +2 blink stalker/sentry and not even have to expand at all. It's like the old saying goes if you're on equal bases as zerg you're pretty much ahead. Well, that's kinda the whole point - it's hard to tell where I should be doing things more smoothly when the people I come up against are just as bad at this game as I am. That's why I was asking for advice. I mean, perhaps it would be better to delay the third base until after I've warped in a couple more rounds of units from my 3 Gateways (and confirmed a third base from my opponent). Using Sentry/Zealot or Sentry/Stalker pressure against that third base whilst setting up my own third base has the potential to be pretty strong because that's a timing when most Zerg players struggle to defend against pure Zealot pressure (which doesn't come with Forcefields and is therefore weaker). I'll try messing with the timings some more later. EDIT: I understand your point about mixing in more Zealots, that does indeed seem desirable. I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool.
Just remember I am being very very general here about your 3rd timing. You kind of just have to figure out good times to get your 3rd. Like in those games actually your 3rd was pretty safe because zerg got a late hatch and seemed to have no tech either and just attacked with a small force of lings. Usually when you see a later hatch like that they at least have speed roaches out.
And like I say don't expand unless you see zerg expand. Generally speaking that is ok. But if you say scout 2-base muta with halluncination or observers or something before mutas are out then grabbing a 3rd before zerg is quite good unless you plan to 2-base all-in. But if they went 2-base infestorling they you probably wouldn't be able to hold your 3rd. In those games you were ok with that 3rd because they actually choose to get a late 3rd instead of tech, but you didn't scout the 3rd you just blindly grabbed it. Also I'm not saying vs a fast 3rd hatch you can't grab your 3rd really fast, I was saying that IMO there are better openings for that very particular purpose. I hope that clears that up.
In regards to the probe scout timing I don't really feel you have to 9 scout unless you FFE. Early scouts with gateway openings really don't achieve much other than delaying their hatch with your probe which I don't feel is worth the economic loss personally. For instance with no probe scout you can 12 gate instead of 13 gate for slightly faster pressure.
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Is there any reason to not gateway-cybercore wall in at your natural on maps with a small ramp to your natural? I've been trying that strategy with this build and I haven't had any problems so far.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
I hope that the following is good reason to bump this thread.
It's about really simple all in that i do following this build. It's so retarded and simple that actually allows it to be good enough to take easy wins from master players. Biggest strength of this is fact that almost nobody in right mind expects it and it actually isn't FFE and most players are confused by it but plays mostly standard 3 hatch anyway.
So i ll repeat the build - 9p_12g_14gas_16p_17c_18z_23stalker_23_warp_26sentry_30nexus - this is standard cecils guide and now you do the following.
@30 you add a gateway and before the 3rd gateway you will have 100 gas you should start your 2nd sentry and then 3rd gateway. Then you add 2 more probes and that should make 34/34 supply.
You now have zealot/stalker/2 sentry and nice wall off with nexus - you are pretty much safe.
@450 minerals you throw additional 3 gateways at a nice spot that zergs don't scout. !You would be suprised how easy it is to hide them. Only maybe 10% of them scout the additional gateway because they see the gateway expo and thinking, nobody is retarded enough to add 3 more gates in main, hehehe!
After gateways you throw one pyon in main that will be nice for warpins and transfer maybe 8-10 probes to natural.
Proxy pylon for attack is probably the most wanted thing in this all in but even if its delayed you can still make a strong attack.
Now there are a lot of scenarios that they can do and all of them can be dealt with. If they are aggresive, if they are passive, whatever, since you will have soo strong army chunk going to attack and soo strong additional warp ins, its such a beautifull all in ^_^. Since this is not a guide i won't go through all the things i dealt with using this but i will post a few replays, i have shit ton of them. I picked up first 8 just to prove that this works and how most of zergs are caught off guard.
Please, don't rip me off for stupid all in - no macro noob, and all that shit, i love sc2 and play it for fun, let's leave it at that.
PvZ_1
PvZ_2
PvZ_3
PvZ_4
PvZ_5
PvZ_6
PvZ_7
PvZ_8
It's really fun too use a nice all in if you are not in the mood for macro games. ^_^
Have fun.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On July 23 2012 22:07 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 01:33 Mesha wrote:I hope that the following is good reason to bump this thread. It's about really simple all in that i do following this build. It's so retarded and simple that actually allows it to be good enough to take easy wins from master players. Biggest strength of this is fact that almost nobody in right mind expects it and it actually isn't FFE and most players are confused by it but plays mostly standard 3 hatch anyway. So i ll repeat the build - 9p_12g_14gas_16p_17c_18z_23stalker_23_warp_26sentry_30nexus - this is standard cecils guide and now you do the following. @30 you add a gateway and before the 3rd gateway you will have 100 gas you should start your 2nd sentry and then 3rd gateway. Then you add 2 more probes and that should make 34/34 supply. You now have zealot/stalker/2 sentry and nice wall off with nexus - you are pretty much safe. @450 minerals you throw additional 3 gateways at a nice spot that zergs don't scout. !You would be suprised how easy it is to hide them. Only maybe 10% of them scout the additional gateway because they see the gateway expo and thinking, nobody is retarded enough to add 3 more gates in main, hehehe! After gateways you throw one pyon in main that will be nice for warpins and transfer maybe 8-10 probes to natural. Proxy pylon for attack is probably the most wanted thing in this all in but even if its delayed you can still make a strong attack. Now there are a lot of scenarios that they can do and all of them can be dealt with. If they are aggresive, if they are passive, whatever, since you will have soo strong army chunk going to attack and soo strong additional warp ins, its such a beautifull all in ^_^. Since this is not a guide i won't go through all the things i dealt with using this but i will post a few replays, i have shit ton of them. I picked up first 8 just to prove that this works and how most of zergs are caught off guard. Please, don't rip me off for stupid all in - no macro noob, and all that shit, i love sc2 and play it for fun, let's leave it at that. PvZ_1PvZ_2PvZ_3PvZ_4PvZ_5PvZ_6PvZ_7PvZ_8It's really fun too use a nice all in if you are not in the mood for macro games. ^_^ Have fun. Yeah, I used to do a 6 Gate kinda like this (your build actually seems more refined so I might start using it ) and it can be really effective if the Zerg doesn't work out what you're up to. I think it works so well because you're able to slow the Zerg player down a lot with the Zealot/Stalker poke and that means they don't have as much economy available to defend against your eventual all-in. EDIT: Wow, I said some really dumb things in this thread... T_T EDIT2: Tried your version of the 6 Gate All-In twice, except I've been going Zealot, Stalker, Stalker so I can put on loads of pressure against gasless Zerg openings (slow Zerglings just can't catch Stalkers). The amount of damage the Stalker/Stalker poke does against Zerg players who open with a traditional 3 Hatch style is immense - in both cases I am up on workers by the time I am warping in my first round of 6 Gate units, which pretty much puts the Zerg in an un-winnable position. http://drop.sc/226804http://drop.sc/226803
Yea i agree the zealot/stalker poke until speedlings kick in is incredibly fun and powerfull, but the funny thing is that i don't even bother anymore, i simply don't even have to care to put pressure on him to force lings, i like to let them drone like crazy and then pay them a visit with their trousers down, hahaha... i mean, they are so careless, this simple all-ins shouldn't work, but they play so greedy, unsafe and blind.. serves them right to put this crap on them, its actually a favor for them to become a better player, perhaps someone will scout better in future or play a little safer.
I'll check your replays, i like to watch all ins and aggresive start games. ^_^
edit: haha, funny games, expect a lot of those comments if you plan to have fun with all ins, , funny fact that nobody takes the blame to their own play ^_^, they think they are entitled for the standard play and should be left alone until they are ready to fight, lol
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EPT
