|
On April 23 2012 20:19 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:41 Skyro wrote:On April 23 2012 07:32 Sated wrote:On April 23 2012 05:27 Skyro wrote:On April 23 2012 02:24 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 20 2012 05:41 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:33 Sated wrote:On April 20 2012 01:28 ZeromuS wrote:On April 19 2012 23:04 Sated wrote:PvZ. I don't like to FFE (except on Shakuras Plateau) so I've been opening with a 1gate FE instead. It works pretty well because the current meta-game dictates that Zerg players won't open 14/14 Speedling expand and will instead open with some sort of gasless expansion (Speedlings are the only real danger to this type of expansion). On maps like Korhal Compound and Daybreak where the third-base is far away/the natural is quite wide, I've found that a ~30 Probe 6gate all-in is incredibly powerful. I don't use the same 6gate I gave replays for in Cecil's thread because I've refined it to hit much earlier, but that's irrelevant - the point is that Zerg players who don't open with an early gas and are aiming to hit the "standard" 8:00 minute Roach timing will be hard pushed to have enough Roaches ready for your attack. On the other hand, Zerg players trying to skip Roaches will quickly find out that Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. In any case, the only reason I go for this all-in is because maps like Korhal Compound are obviously not maps where taking a 3rd base against Zerg is a viable option; you pretty much have to go for a two-base all-in. Besides, this isn't what I need help with because 6gating is pretty easy. What I need help with is my other style: On maps with viable 3rd base options, I've been attempting to take a very fast third-base as soon as Warpgates finish (~7 minutes). This negates the economic disadvantage you have compared to a FFE and allows you to have units instead of cannons for defending that third-base. This obviously requires the third-base to be within range of your natural so that proper Forcefield use will keep you safe, but that's not a problem with maps like Entombed Valley (the absolute best map for doing this) and Cloud Kingdom (possible with good map-awareness) in the map pool. Getting the third-base and defending it against all-ins is something I can do (so long as my micro is good) so that's not what I need help with... What I need help with is the best unit composition to go for. I've been blindly going for Blink Stalker/Colossus because that's the most standard way to play, but I am pretty sure White-Ra used to use this opening to transition into Stargate play (the idea is to get Phoenixes for Mutalisk defence/harassment/scouting whilst teching towards Carriers(!)). I haven't been able to find any replays of White-Ra doing this even though I'm sure I've seen him do it so I was wondering if anyone else had, or if anyone else had any input on this style? The stargate, that late after a third is really inefficient. You won't have enough pheonixes out to deter the mutalisks. If they go for 2 base fast muta you will have 2 or 3 pheonixes when they show up with 10> mutas and that won't deter them one bit. If they go for 3 base muta, then they will have enough mutas that the small number of pheonix also don't really help. If you want to gateway expand to 3 bases you are better off with HTs and blink stalkers since you will be upgrading your units, you will want blink to defend roach all ins anyway and the tech will be available to go for quick storm. The gas intake will really help you with the fast 3rd as well so you should be able to afford whatever you need. If you went Star opening after forge FE and then took a fast 3rd while harassing before they get a lot of roaches or lair and roach speed done then you can definitely go to carriers if you wanted though carriers from white ra are usually part of a 2 base play from what I've seen. You're probably right having thought about it - 2base Carrier does seem more like something White-Ra would do and I don't really want to go for any 2base Carrier play; it's a bit too fragile for my liking  With regards to this opening, what I've been doing is this: http://drop.sc/163637You'll have to excuse the late second gas (should've taken it after starting the Stalker), the supply blocks near the start and the indecision in the mid-game because I'm still feeling my way around the Twilight timing and the Robotics timing. What I'm sure of are the timings up until the third base is thrown down, and I'd probably add that I'm fairly sure about the Forge timing (although I should've chronoboosted +1 more, and the Forge should've probably been placed closer to the natural wall-off). From there, I figured lining the Twilight up with +1 finishing made sense... but Blink would've been far too late to deflect earlier Mutalisks in this particular case. I also have no way of effectively scouting until the Robotics Facility is up, so since I'm going for Sentries I should probably work Hallucination into this build somehow. Any advice would be great - like I say, I am still feeling my way around the timings since I don't have anything concrete (i.e. VODs) to work from. Here is a better example that I just played (against a Masters player!): http://drop.sc/163695The timings are tighter on the upgrades etc. and I think my sim-city is better in this replay. Making a wall-off at the natural (where the rocks are) instead of at the third seems better because it makes bouncing between the natural and the third easier, hence making it easier to defend both locations. Going up to 6gate +2 Blink Stalker before committing to a Robo was a good idea; Forcefields and Blink will keep you safe against most things at that particular timing. The poke that I did against their third as Blink and +2 finished was a good idea too, even if my poor sim-city at the third did leave me open to a run-by - this push revealed Roaches over Mutalisks (I think I could probably outright win against Ling/Muta if they'd skipped Roaches) and so allowed me to go home and throw down a double Robo. I could've gone double Stargate Carrier if I'd wanted to, but I'll save that for when I'm feeling braver. I could've gotten a Stargate sooner for a Mothership... and the Brood Lords surprised me because I lacked scouting... but I definitely felt much better this time around than the previous time around! Much work to do, but it is looking good. Don't know how it would do against Stephano-style Roaches, but no one is going to do that against a Gateway expand... right? I posted the above in the Protoss Help Me thread, but I figured I would ask about it here as well. Do you think that going for an incredibly fast third out of this opening is a good idea considering the passive manner in which most Zerg players want to play the match-up? And do you think I'm going about it in a stable manner? You mention fast third-bases in the thread, but don't really go into any specifics... Have you tried this opening? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEIt is a gate expand that is much more economical (about as economical as a forge first FFE) than nexus after core. This is IMO the best opening if your goal is go for a fast 3rd nexus in response to a fast 3 hatch opening. Since it is still a gate expand you still have a faster WG which you can use to pressure or defend your 3rd with. I usually go pressure with 4 initial zealots and grab my 3rd b/w 6 and 7 mins (depends if I feel safe to throw down my nexus before my 2nd and 3rd gates). Since it is so economical you don't have to feel as pressured to do damage to the zerg. If you open 1 gas nexus after core you pretty much have to do some serious damage to stay on par, which isn't necessarily good or bad but you need some good stalker micro/multi-task to make it worth it IMO. The only thing that has caught me off-guard while going fast 3rd nexus is the 3 hatch ling/baneling all-in (hits ~7:30). In that case you basically just cancel your 3rd and wall-up your natural (your initial zealot pressure should sniff this out). But 3 hatch ling/baneling gets the 3rd hatch slightly later than normal (~5 mins instead of ~4 mins) so just be mindful of that. In terms of follow-ups after you secure your 3rd, I like to go twilight to get blink and +2 weapons since stalkers are pretty much good vs. everything. Then I get a later robo for obs so I can see their attach paths (very important in defending your 3rd) and also in case of burrow. Squeeze out an immortal or 2 vs roaches as well. I'm still wavering on if hallucination is worth it or not. Hallucination will get you faster scouting but it will delay your robo. I have no interest in the FFE and YufFE openings outside of using them to do a 7gate +2 Blink Stalker all-in or some sort of 2base Immortal all-in. I do not believe they are the best way to open if you plan to play a macro game against a Zerg player and that's despite them being undoubtedly more economical than a Gate/Core opening. I know that sounds backwards, so let me tell you why: First of all, both the FFE and YufFE openings let the Zerg know that they can take a very fast third base without any risks. This is because they can instantly cross off the most dangerous Protoss early-game builds from their list of things you can do. Here is a list of things that they know you're not doing without having to properly scout you: - 4gate - 5gate Zealot/Sentry - 3gate Robo all-in (many varieties) - 4gate Warp-Prism all-in - 3gate Blink-Stalker all-in - DT expand Secondly, both the FFE and YufFE let the Zerg know that they can delay gas (and therefore Zergling speed) for a very long time. This is because they know that they're not going to have a Stalker they can't kill (without making far too many Zerglings) ruining their game-plan after only a couple of minutes. Admittedly, I'm yet to incorporate this early pressure into my games because my multi-tasking isn't that great, but I feel that this guide shows that Zealot/Stalker pokes can be really good against Zerg players who skimp on gas. This is an option that I want to have, especially against Zerg players who don't bother to Drone scout. Thirdly, although the FFE and YufFE are more economical than Gate/Core openings, any advantage you gain over a Gate/Core opening is cancelled out by how greedy the Zerg opponent is subsequently allowed to be. It's no use playing a more economical build if that build allows your Zerg opponent to only make Drones for 7/8 minutes. Anyway... My follow-up is also to get +2 and Blink as quickly as possible. I can have both of those finished by around 11:00 if my macro is perfect (but it's never perfect, so closer to 12:00 is more realistic). At this point I'll have 6 Gateways churning out Stalkers and I'll be throwing down my Robotics Facility ready for a 2robo Colossus transition. As I only do this three-base opening on maps with an easy to defend third-base (Cloud Kingdom, Entombed Valley), Forcefields and Blink Stalkers are usually enough to defend against 3base Roach spam or 3base Roach/Hydra spam (which is becoming popular again, at least in the games I've been playing). Needless to say, if I can't defend at this point then it isn't because of the opening, it is because of my micro. At the end of the day, if I can get to 2robo Colossus without suffering massive damage then I'll feel pretty good about the game. This is because by 16:00/17:00 I can have Colossus, Extended Thermal Lances, +3, lots of Blink Stalkers and around 6/7 Sentries. This is a similar composition to this build and, although I get there later, I feel I get there safer given that my opening forces the Zerg to play a build that isn't a balls-to-the-wall Stephano-style Roach build. Unfortunately, I don't possess the ability to hit all these timings because I screw shit up. This means that my replays won't show this build at its best, even if I have been able to beat Masters-level Zerg players with it. I still think it has a lot of potential on the right maps (and I think that it is better to go for a 2base all-in than to take a fast third on the wrong maps). You have some serious misconceptions about all these openings. First of all a zerg player can hold a 4-gate with a fast 3 hatch build if they know what they are doing. Nothing actually stops a zerg from getting a fast 3rd hatch regardless of how you open. A smart zerg won't change his entire opening based on seeing a gateway expand because they can easily scout when you expand with lings and there's nothing you can really do to prevent that scouting. And also with a YufFE expand you can actually hit a 4-gate WG timing @ 6:15 if you so inclined (obviously a lot of probe cuts necessary). What this should tell you is that your core is ~30 secs delayed to compared to going core after gate, if you wanted to hit that WG timing or pressure with stalkers. But honestly I'd argue that stalker harass is quite inconsequential relative to what you give up in terms of econ and resources for those stalkers. +1 Zealots IMO are much, much more effective at forcing a large amount of lings. And lastly I find it quite amusing how you admit you don't even do the stalker pressure with this build, when that is essentially the only reason you would do this opening. The logic of a "threat of various 1-base strats" is moot since you expand with this build early enough where it is before a fast 3 hatch zerg player would start to actually respond to potential 1-base play. Most zergs go fast 3rd hatch in response to 1-gate FE all the time, this is the advice given on these very forums. And since you mention you can "beat masters zerg players" I can only surmise you're in diamond, and TBH you probably have bigger issues with your play which you should focus on rather than trying to implement an opening that requires a high level of micro/multi-tasking (stalker micro) and going for fast 3rd nexus builds. Although if you haven't really done much stalker harass to begin with I suppose that is why you overestimate its effect. OTOH if you enjoy to play in this way or this is your style of play that you favor and just want to have fun then by all means have at it, but I would be a bit more open-minded about the merits of other openings. For instance if I were to play with this opening (which I have when this guide was originally put up quite a while ago) I would play very very aggressive all throughout the game and only go for a later 3rd after I felt I (ideally) did a significant amount of damage but know that I can't finish them off. The whole premise of the build is to be aggressive throughout (even the OP says to not be passive), so I think trying to get a fast 3rd with only minor stalker harass is a recipe for disaster as you move up the ranks. You'd be surprised how many people can't do things that most people on these forums take for granted. Sure, I agree that a 4gate is relatively easy to hold once you know it is coming, but presenting it as a possibility at least forces the Zerg to be more diligent with their scouting than they might otherwise be. Also, although a 4gate isn't particularly dangerous, some of those other all-ins are not so easy to hold for most players - Kiwikaki was stomping with the 5gate Zealot/Sentry build at a very high level for a pretty decent amount of time, 3gate Blink Stalker is great against Zerg players who try to delay gas too long because slow Zerglings can't do much about it, and Lobber's 3gate Robo all-in continues to be ridiculously strong despite how easy it is to scout. Essentially, my point wasn't centred around being able to 4gate because I wouldn't personally go for that kind of build in a PvZ, I was just pointing out that a FFE makes it very easy for a competent Zerg to play like a robot until the 8-minute mark. It is obviously much easier to play like a robot than it is to think about things whilst trying to macro. I think your point about the Stalker pressure is a bit silly. Although I don't personally implement it yet (mostly because I don't really have the eAPM for it), this guide shows that it can be a very effective pressure against the standard Zerg style of delaying gas as long as possible. Forcing the Zerg off their DroneDroneDrone track early in the game is more effective than most people are willing to realise, it has a lasting effect on their build order if you can force them to make too many Zerglings early in the game. My signature says I'm in Diamond, you shouldn't need to deduce it And yes, it is obvious from my rank that there are big problems with my play, both on the micro and macro side of things. However, these problems are not related to my openings as I'd have the same problems no matter how I opened. I'd also point out that I've never beaten a Masters Zerg with a FFE opening, take from that what you will... Anyway, I obviously want to get better and I'm probably past the stage were 2base all-ins are going to help me, but I'm ultimately not going to learn much if I don't find what I'm doing fun. Instead of trying to convert me towards "standard play", wouldn't it be better to either a) ignore me b) help me with my question? This guide mentions that taking a fast third is a possibility, I just want to know if I'm doing it in a manner that works within the framework of this opening or if I should be doing something else. For example, I realise that I need to be more aggressive, but that comes with feeling more comfortable about the fast third base. Zerglings can kill a base pretty quickly if they manage to score a run-by, and on most maps it is pretty difficult to ensure that you're not going to get run-by if you move out onto the map with 3gate aggression similar to that displayed by iNcontroL's 3gate Sentry opening (which this build is capable of).
I think what skyro was saying was that you are coming across as viewing FFE and YufFE as not good because it doesn't allow you to put pressure on the zerg. But skyro was pointing out that you can put just as much pressure on the zerg with these as you can with the 1 gate fe.
It goes back to why? Why put pressure on them? to stop them from getting a really good economy this can be done 2 different ways.
A. Kill drones, (or hatches)
B. Make them make units that are not drones
With the 1 gate fe with no pressure (which is what you said you do) that has the potential of B but its purely Meta (in their head, fear of an attack) while if you pressure you can do both A, and B.
Also with the other two FE styles it allows you to do both A, and B (granted slightly later) but especially with the current FFE into the 4 gate +1 zealots (I send my first 2 to their third if they take a quick one). I mean you can do a lot of different things from a FFE to put pressure on a zerg especially if they go for a fast third.
What skyro was trying to say (and excuse me if i am pressuming) is understand the reason's behind why you are doing whatever you do in this game and from their pick whatever suites your fancy. Don't just discount something because it has not worked for you.
Hope this helps not only with PvZ but with understanding how to think in games.
~YourGoodFriend
|
|
|
You'd be surprised how many people can't do things that most people on these forums take for granted. Sure, I agree that a 4gate is relatively easy to hold once you know it is coming, but presenting it as a possibility at least forces the Zerg to be more diligent with their scouting than they might otherwise be. Also, although a 4gate isn't particularly dangerous, some of those other all-ins are not so easy to hold for most players - Kiwikaki was stomping with the 5gate Zealot/Sentry build at a very high level for a pretty decent amount of time, 3gate Blink Stalker is great against Zerg players who try to delay gas too long because slow Zerglings can't do much about it, and Lobber's 3gate Robo all-in continues to be ridiculously strong despite how easy it is to scout. Essentially, my point wasn't centred around being able to 4gate because I wouldn't personally go for that kind of build in a PvZ, I was just pointing out that a FFE makes it very easy for a competent Zerg to play like a robot until the 8-minute mark. It is obviously much easier to play like a robot than it is to think about things whilst trying to macro.
My point is that a zerg will spot your expansion and would be able to play like a "robot" regardless since you throw it down fairly early. It does not take much "diligence" to spot when a protoss expands with a ling or 2.
I think your point about the Stalker pressure is a bit silly. Although I don't personally implement it yet (mostly because I don't really have the eAPM for it), this guide shows that it can be a very effective pressure against the standard Zerg style of delaying gas as long as possible. Forcing the Zerg off their DroneDroneDrone track early in the game is more effective than most people are willing to realise, it has a lasting effect on their build order if you can force them to make too many Zerglings early in the game.
My point is far from silly. If you're not doing the stalker harass, regardless of the reason, then I don't know why you are using this opening. You don't play a build because of what other people can do with it, you play it because of what you can do with it. If you want to use the build then you pretty much have to do the stalker harass, so I would just force myself to do it even if my macro slips because you'll never improve this aspect of your play if you just ignore it.
And to be clear I'm not knocking this opening/build or stalker harass in general, I'm specifically trying to address your misconception about this opening/build. This is an aggressive pressure build and should be played like one, it isn't the best opening to grab a very fast 3rd (like ~6-7 min as you are saying). It's more of a pressure build that grabs a third if and when the game warrants it. More on this below.
My signature says I'm in Diamond, you shouldn't need to deduce it And yes, it is obvious from my rank that there are big problems with my play, both on the micro and macro side of things. However, these problems are not related to my openings as I'd have the same problems no matter how I opened. I'd also point out that I've never beaten a Masters Zerg with a FFE opening, take from that what you will... Anyway, I obviously want to get better and I'm probably past the stage were 2base all-ins are going to help me, but I'm ultimately not going to learn much if I don't find what I'm doing fun. Instead of trying to convert me towards "standard play", wouldn't it be better to either a) ignore me b) help me with my question?
First of all I don't think 2-base plays will no longer help you improve. They are still quite effective no matter how high you go. If you don't want to practice them or do them because it's not fun for you or whatever, that's fine. But I'm just trying to clear up your misconceptions. And I'm not trying to convert you toward standard play, whatever that is. I am trying to help you understand that getting a 6-7 min third with this opening is sub-optimal. That doesn't mean the opening is bad, it just means you're trying to turn this build into something it's not.
This guide mentions that taking a fast third is a possibility, I just want to know if I'm doing it in a manner that works within the framework of this opening or if I should be doing something else. For example, I realise that I need to be more aggressive, but that comes with feeling more comfortable about the fast third base. Zerglings can kill a base pretty quickly if they manage to score a run-by, and on most maps it is pretty difficult to ensure that you're not going to get run-by if you move out onto the map with 3gate aggression similar to that displayed by iNcontroL's 3gate Sentry opening (which this build is capable of).
The recommended follow-up is actually to push out on the map and apply pressure. The guide only briefly mentions taking a third, under the section where the zerg counter attacks you after your pressure. While I'm not the OP, I highly, highly doubt that means take a 6-7 min third after your initial stalker pressure. A zerg could spot your 3rd and know you are going to be fairly passive and can drone away. And while this is true of any extremely fast 6-7 min third, this opening just makes you further behind in econ than more economical openings while in all likelyhood doing less damage than +1 zealot timings.
And also hitting earlier is not always better, contrary to what some might think. A zerg doesn't actually get up on worker count (when you compare a fast 3rd hatch build vs. gate-nexus or FFE) until around the 7-8 min third mark if left alone, which is when 3 hatch/3 queen larve production kicks in. That is probably a better way to look at it. Go into your replays and look at the worker counts throughout the game. See how much damage you do, how much units you force. With this opening you'll probably be behind in workers the whole game if you went for a 6-7 min third. And that is pretty much my point, that IF your goal is to grab a 6-7 min third there are better openings for it. This opening/build is not meant to be played passively (which a 6-7 min third invariably is).
|
|
|
However, they won't be doing the style they're most comfortable with. They will have to take an earlier gas against this type of opening, eventually screwing with the rest of their timings. My point is that they have to start responding to what is going on a lot sooner than they do against a FFE, which is undeniably true.
It is true some zergs don't know how to react to seeing a gate first, likely due to just not seeing it often. However vs zergs that do know what they're doing I'd argue they are not affected very much at all. While you can get earlier stalkers out, any potential mid-game push is much weaker. It's a trade-off, basically.
Also both your points apply to YufFE as well. It starts gate first and can pressure much faster than FFE. This is why I suggested it if you don't like to FFE. It has the econ of a forge first FFE with the potential to hit very fast tech timings (depending on how you want to play it). It's the best of both worlds IMO. I assume you've never tried YufFE (or gate-nexus) because you seem to group it together with FFE, but I really think you'd like it based on what seems to be your preferred playstyle.
For the nth time, it's not that I intend to continue playing this build passively and it's not that I don't understand that this opening needs to be played more aggressively, it's simply that I'm not being aggressive yet. I fully intend to start implementing this aggression as I continue opening in this manner, there's just more important things to get comfortable with first (like building shit). Stop making the same point over and over when it is clear that this point is only applicable if you purposefully choose to mis-read what I am saying.
Well what I like to do is practice a build order vs the AI until I get comfortable with it before playing other players. It's much more efficient that way. Use the time playing other players as practice for things you can't do vs the AI, i.e multi-tasking/micro. And I'm not knocking your lack of micro/aggressiveness/whatever, I was pointing out that I do not believe grabbing a super fast 3rd goes against the nature of this opening.
Even if you take an earlier second gas, you will not have to wait long to have enough minerals to build a third Nexus directly after getting 3 Sentries from your newly transformed Warpgates. Or before getting those Sentries. Your subsequent Stalker production is slowed down, but it's slowed down no matter what Gateway opening you use since you can't actually afford 3 Gateways worth of Stalker production w/ Pylons and Probes until the natural becomes more saturated. Pressuring at this point would be just the same as pressuring from a 3gate Sentry opening, except you've got a third Nexus...
I fail to see how it is inefficient if done correctly: I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly but I'm sure there is a way to do to correctly.
What I mean by suboptimal is that you will have a harder time defending your 3rd vs going YufFE. You will simply have less stuff to defend. Whether the zerg goes into pure macro mode and outmacros you or tries to bust your 3rd early you are simply worse off compared to if you went YufFE into zealot pressure into 3rd since you have less econ from the start, you're probably getting your 3rd later compared to YufFE, and you probably didn't do as much damage with your stalkers compared to +1 zealots. YufFE opening you can get 4 +1 zealots with warpgate done behind 3 or 4 gates around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on if you want to cut probes or not.
You can push out on the map and apply pressure. You have a lot of Forcefields after warping in the first 3 Sentries from your Warpgates (5 Sentries total) and you can warp-in additional aggressive Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers if you have a proxy Pylon ready. I might not personally feel comfortable doing this yet, but it is possible to do this whilst taking the fast third. My only fear is the opponent going for a blind Roach/Ling all-in, surrounding all my stuff and flat-out killing me... but I'd have the same fear with any Gateway opening, so that's hardly specific to what I'm trying to do.
If you grab a 6-7 min third you just don't have enough of a force to apply good pressure. You don't have the resources. Your army would be at risk around this time due to ling speed being completed and if your army is out on the field you can easily get surrounded and just lose the game.
In regards to your concern about roach/ling all-in, first of all you shouldn't be grabbing your third unless you see a fast 3rd hatch from zerg. Second this opening is probably one of the best builds at sniffing out a roach/ling all-in due to your map presence. If you see roaches out on the field b/w 6-7 mins it's almost a sure thing he went for an all-in. Another big tell is his drone count at his natural, which you should see with your stalker harass.
edit: Also I'm not even sure the OP still uses this opening. A lot has changed in the 4 months since this was posted.
|
Cecil ! It'S been a while  happy birthday, and thx for the guide ill be sure to give this a shot. Your old guides helped me soo much already.
|
|
|
On April 24 2012 05:14 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:49 Skyro wrote:However, they won't be doing the style they're most comfortable with. They will have to take an earlier gas against this type of opening, eventually screwing with the rest of their timings. My point is that they have to start responding to what is going on a lot sooner than they do against a FFE, which is undeniably true. It is true some zergs don't know how to react to seeing a gate first, likely due to just not seeing it often. However vs zergs that do know what they're doing I'd argue they are not affected very much at all. While you can get earlier stalkers out, any potential mid-game push is much weaker. It's a trade-off, basically. Also both your points apply to YufFE as well. It starts gate first and can pressure much faster than FFE. This is why I suggested it if you don't like to FFE. It has the econ of a forge first FFE with the potential to hit very fast tech timings (depending on how you want to play it). It's the best of both worlds IMO. I assume you've never tried YufFE (or gate-nexus) because you seem to group it together with FFE, but I really think you'd like it based on what seems to be your preferred playstyle. For the nth time, it's not that I intend to continue playing this build passively and it's not that I don't understand that this opening needs to be played more aggressively, it's simply that I'm not being aggressive yet. I fully intend to start implementing this aggression as I continue opening in this manner, there's just more important things to get comfortable with first (like building shit). Stop making the same point over and over when it is clear that this point is only applicable if you purposefully choose to mis-read what I am saying. Well what I like to do is practice a build order vs the AI until I get comfortable with it before playing other players. It's much more efficient that way. Use the time playing other players as practice for things you can't do vs the AI, i.e multi-tasking/micro. And I'm not knocking your lack of micro/aggressiveness/whatever, I was pointing out that I do not believe grabbing a super fast 3rd goes against the nature of this opening. Even if you take an earlier second gas, you will not have to wait long to have enough minerals to build a third Nexus directly after getting 3 Sentries from your newly transformed Warpgates. Or before getting those Sentries. Your subsequent Stalker production is slowed down, but it's slowed down no matter what Gateway opening you use since you can't actually afford 3 Gateways worth of Stalker production w/ Pylons and Probes until the natural becomes more saturated. Pressuring at this point would be just the same as pressuring from a 3gate Sentry opening, except you've got a third Nexus...
I fail to see how it is inefficient if done correctly: I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly but I'm sure there is a way to do to correctly. What I mean by suboptimal is that you will have a harder time defending your 3rd vs going YufFE. You will simply have less stuff to defend. Whether the zerg goes into pure macro mode and outmacros you or tries to bust your 3rd early you are simply worse off compared to if you went YufFE into zealot pressure into 3rd since you have less econ from the start, you're probably getting your 3rd later compared to YufFE, and you probably didn't do as much damage with your stalkers compared to +1 zealots. YufFE opening you can get 4 +1 zealots with warpgate done behind 3 or 4 gates around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on if you want to cut probes or not. You can push out on the map and apply pressure. You have a lot of Forcefields after warping in the first 3 Sentries from your Warpgates (5 Sentries total) and you can warp-in additional aggressive Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers if you have a proxy Pylon ready. I might not personally feel comfortable doing this yet, but it is possible to do this whilst taking the fast third. My only fear is the opponent going for a blind Roach/Ling all-in, surrounding all my stuff and flat-out killing me... but I'd have the same fear with any Gateway opening, so that's hardly specific to what I'm trying to do. If you grab a 6-7 min third you just don't have enough of a force to apply good pressure. You don't have the resources. Your army would be at risk around this time due to ling speed being completed and if your army is out on the field you can easily get surrounded and just lose the game. In regards to your concern about roach/ling all-in, first of all you shouldn't be grabbing your third unless you see a fast 3rd hatch from zerg. Second this opening is probably one of the best builds at sniffing out a roach/ling all-in due to your map presence. If you see roaches out on the field b/w 6-7 mins it's almost a sure thing he went for an all-in. Another big tell is his drone count at his natural, which you should see with your stalker harass. edit: Also I'm not even sure the OP still uses this opening. A lot has changed in the 4 months since this was posted. Okay then, time for more aggressiveness... which is screwing with my build order immensely since I only have ~100 APM, but whatever. It's probably worth it, and this build does require that I play more aggressively than I have been with this fast third nonsense thus far. + Show Spoiler [Replays] +http://drop.sc/165602 - Zealot/Stalker poke kills a Queen and forces far too many Lings. I take a fast third whilst poking again with a 3gate Sentry/Stalker force, which manages to kill their third base. I kill their third base again with a +2 Blink Stalker timing, but then lose too many Stalkers to Zerglings by being greedy. The damage is done, though, and Zerg goes for a desperation Baneling bust (!?) that fails to do any real damage. http://drop.sc/165603 - The Zerg blocks my gas so I go Zealot/Stalker/Stalker instead of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry. The Zealot/Stalker/Stalker poke doesn't really do much besides forcing them to make too many Zerglings, but those Zerglings could've been 5/6 Drones instead so I suppose this is indirect damage. My build is really scattered because of the early second gas being blocked and I end up getting my Robotics Facility pretty late but meh... The game ends when I deathballdeathballdeathballdeathball my way to victory. http://drop.sc/165604 - I don't do a Zealot/Stalker poke. However, my Sentry/Stalker follow up makes them leave when they realise they can't save their third (because they've just made a wave of Drones). My Probe production is awful and so Zerg may be 8 Drones ahead when they leave, but to get those 8 Drones they would've had to trade their third base anyway. I guess this is an extreme example of what happens when the Zerg player doesn't react to what you're doing and tries to only make Drones... Maybe all the Zerg players I go up against are just terrible? But I'm terrible, too, and since I'm having quite a bit of success with this against people in my skill bracket I'm going to keep on doing it (these replays are 2 Diamond players and a Platinum player, just so everyone knows. The earlier ones I posted were a Masters and a Diamond player). I just know there has to be a smoother way to do this, but it's hard to tell where it should be smoother when my build order is all over the place due to my lack of multi-tasking ability. Kinda frustrating, to be honest!
Yeah those zergs were pretty terrible TBH. I honestly have no idea what they were doing because they applied no pressure nor did they even macro well. I honestly feel a good zerg could bust that third of yours every time. You expand before even scouting the zerg 3rd even. I think a good rule of thumb is don't expand before the zerg unless you really know what you're doing.
But that aside there are a few things I noticed. If you scout no gas I would make a 2nd stalker for more harass potential. In all those games you scout no gas and this could've been taken advantage of. Remember, that is the whole frigging point of this opening, the stalker harass, so you want to maximize this.
I also think you can scout a lot later to help your econ a little bit. You could easily scout @ 15 or 16 with this opening. And I still feel you're way better off being more aggressive mid game with this opening than getting that a third that early, but whatever floats your boat.
You also want to mix in more zealots early. You switch out of zealots after you force roaches. Forcing roaches is a big deal because it delays tech like mutas or infestors which could spell disaster for you. Most zergs from my experiences don't do late 3rd hatch build like that as it is frankly a pretty terrible build. It's either fast 3rd hatch or 2-base tech. Like in those games where they went late 3rd hatch you could easily denied it by just mixing in more zealots in your composition, then run him over with +2 blink stalker/sentry and not even have to expand at all. It's like the old saying goes if you're on equal bases as zerg you're pretty much ahead.
|
|
|
On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool.
FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool.
|
|
|
United States8476 Posts
On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though.
Not true, but then again pretty much the last 15 posts in this thread all contain things that aren't true.
|
On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though.
Free win is an exageration. But i gladly take your 7 pool instead the "3 base roach +60 drones 12 min max into infestor/muta tech". And there we all can agree that at high level PvZ is as close to free win as we can get.
Edit @Monk: please don't lose your faith on the P comunity. I agree that a lot of crappy almost ruin several threads by firmly stating wrong info instead of just humble comenting. But you have the "blue light", compared to others, keep enlighting and reroute wrong posts please.
|
|
|
United States8476 Posts
I don't have time to correct every single misinformed thing anyone says; it's not my job. I already post enough.
Edit @Monk: please don't lose your faith on the P comunity. I agree that a lot of crappy almost ruin several threads by firmly stating wrong info instead of just humble comenting.
Yea, this annoys me the most. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't back it up with a confident voice. Otherwise it's just the misinformed leading the uninformed, people who don't know any better. And there's too much of it going around to correct at every instance.
|
|
|
United States8476 Posts
On April 24 2012 22:27 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 22:04 NrGmonk wrote:I don't have time to correct every single misinformed thing anyone says; it's not my job. I already post enough. Edit @Monk: please don't lose your faith on the P comunity. I agree that a lot of crappy almost ruin several threads by firmly stating wrong info instead of just humble comenting. Yea, this annoys me the most. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't back it up with a confident voice. Otherwise it's just the misinformed leading the uninformed, people who don't know any better. And there's too much of it going around to correct at every instance. I didn't mean you should go around correcting everything. But if you have time to post to deride people, you have time to correct them.
I already said what you said isn't true. That took 30 seconds. Correcting everything would take around 10 minutes.
|
On April 24 2012 21:40 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though. Not true, but then again pretty much the last 15 posts in this thread all contain things that aren't true.
You should watch some replays with bly in it.
|
On April 24 2012 21:50 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:40 NrGmonk wrote:On April 24 2012 21:33 Sated wrote:On April 24 2012 21:11 Jaeger wrote:On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:
I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool. FFE with a pylon scout is basically a free win against an early pool. I disagree - there are several "eco" 7pool styles that will get very far ahead after forcing you to build a cannon in your main base etc. Not really the point of this thread, though. Not true, but then again pretty much the last 15 posts in this thread all contain things that aren't true. People wouldn't ramble on about their self-perceived bollocks for as long if supposed blue-posters gave them with more than an off-hand dismissal =P
Well here's why no 7 pool can ever get an advantage against FFE if scouted:
1) Even if Z only makes 6 lings, you have 20 probes when Z has 12 drones
2) Your cannon should be done early enough to only lose 3-4 probes even with godawful micro
3) With proper placement, you can build your gateway, first 3 pylons, assimilator and cyber core without allowing lings to get free kills on any of them
4) Your scouting probe can go LOL and place a pylon at their natural
It's basically GG as long as you don't mess any of this up. You'll be way ahead on workers, and you force their lings to come back and kill the pylon if they want to expand reasonable early. If you're losing to early pools it's because your building placement is horrible, you don't know how to scout or you are forgetting pylons.
|
On April 24 2012 20:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 10:56 Skyro wrote:On April 24 2012 05:14 Sated wrote:On April 24 2012 02:49 Skyro wrote:However, they won't be doing the style they're most comfortable with. They will have to take an earlier gas against this type of opening, eventually screwing with the rest of their timings. My point is that they have to start responding to what is going on a lot sooner than they do against a FFE, which is undeniably true. It is true some zergs don't know how to react to seeing a gate first, likely due to just not seeing it often. However vs zergs that do know what they're doing I'd argue they are not affected very much at all. While you can get earlier stalkers out, any potential mid-game push is much weaker. It's a trade-off, basically. Also both your points apply to YufFE as well. It starts gate first and can pressure much faster than FFE. This is why I suggested it if you don't like to FFE. It has the econ of a forge first FFE with the potential to hit very fast tech timings (depending on how you want to play it). It's the best of both worlds IMO. I assume you've never tried YufFE (or gate-nexus) because you seem to group it together with FFE, but I really think you'd like it based on what seems to be your preferred playstyle. For the nth time, it's not that I intend to continue playing this build passively and it's not that I don't understand that this opening needs to be played more aggressively, it's simply that I'm not being aggressive yet. I fully intend to start implementing this aggression as I continue opening in this manner, there's just more important things to get comfortable with first (like building shit). Stop making the same point over and over when it is clear that this point is only applicable if you purposefully choose to mis-read what I am saying. Well what I like to do is practice a build order vs the AI until I get comfortable with it before playing other players. It's much more efficient that way. Use the time playing other players as practice for things you can't do vs the AI, i.e multi-tasking/micro. And I'm not knocking your lack of micro/aggressiveness/whatever, I was pointing out that I do not believe grabbing a super fast 3rd goes against the nature of this opening. Even if you take an earlier second gas, you will not have to wait long to have enough minerals to build a third Nexus directly after getting 3 Sentries from your newly transformed Warpgates. Or before getting those Sentries. Your subsequent Stalker production is slowed down, but it's slowed down no matter what Gateway opening you use since you can't actually afford 3 Gateways worth of Stalker production w/ Pylons and Probes until the natural becomes more saturated. Pressuring at this point would be just the same as pressuring from a 3gate Sentry opening, except you've got a third Nexus...
I fail to see how it is inefficient if done correctly: I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly but I'm sure there is a way to do to correctly. What I mean by suboptimal is that you will have a harder time defending your 3rd vs going YufFE. You will simply have less stuff to defend. Whether the zerg goes into pure macro mode and outmacros you or tries to bust your 3rd early you are simply worse off compared to if you went YufFE into zealot pressure into 3rd since you have less econ from the start, you're probably getting your 3rd later compared to YufFE, and you probably didn't do as much damage with your stalkers compared to +1 zealots. YufFE opening you can get 4 +1 zealots with warpgate done behind 3 or 4 gates around 7:00 to 7:20 depending on if you want to cut probes or not. You can push out on the map and apply pressure. You have a lot of Forcefields after warping in the first 3 Sentries from your Warpgates (5 Sentries total) and you can warp-in additional aggressive Zealots/Sentries/Stalkers if you have a proxy Pylon ready. I might not personally feel comfortable doing this yet, but it is possible to do this whilst taking the fast third. My only fear is the opponent going for a blind Roach/Ling all-in, surrounding all my stuff and flat-out killing me... but I'd have the same fear with any Gateway opening, so that's hardly specific to what I'm trying to do. If you grab a 6-7 min third you just don't have enough of a force to apply good pressure. You don't have the resources. Your army would be at risk around this time due to ling speed being completed and if your army is out on the field you can easily get surrounded and just lose the game. In regards to your concern about roach/ling all-in, first of all you shouldn't be grabbing your third unless you see a fast 3rd hatch from zerg. Second this opening is probably one of the best builds at sniffing out a roach/ling all-in due to your map presence. If you see roaches out on the field b/w 6-7 mins it's almost a sure thing he went for an all-in. Another big tell is his drone count at his natural, which you should see with your stalker harass. edit: Also I'm not even sure the OP still uses this opening. A lot has changed in the 4 months since this was posted. Okay then, time for more aggressiveness... which is screwing with my build order immensely since I only have ~100 APM, but whatever. It's probably worth it, and this build does require that I play more aggressively than I have been with this fast third nonsense thus far. + Show Spoiler [Replays] +http://drop.sc/165602 - Zealot/Stalker poke kills a Queen and forces far too many Lings. I take a fast third whilst poking again with a 3gate Sentry/Stalker force, which manages to kill their third base. I kill their third base again with a +2 Blink Stalker timing, but then lose too many Stalkers to Zerglings by being greedy. The damage is done, though, and Zerg goes for a desperation Baneling bust (!?) that fails to do any real damage. http://drop.sc/165603 - The Zerg blocks my gas so I go Zealot/Stalker/Stalker instead of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry. The Zealot/Stalker/Stalker poke doesn't really do much besides forcing them to make too many Zerglings, but those Zerglings could've been 5/6 Drones instead so I suppose this is indirect damage. My build is really scattered because of the early second gas being blocked and I end up getting my Robotics Facility pretty late but meh... The game ends when I deathballdeathballdeathballdeathball my way to victory. http://drop.sc/165604 - I don't do a Zealot/Stalker poke. However, my Sentry/Stalker follow up makes them leave when they realise they can't save their third (because they've just made a wave of Drones). My Probe production is awful and so Zerg may be 8 Drones ahead when they leave, but to get those 8 Drones they would've had to trade their third base anyway. I guess this is an extreme example of what happens when the Zerg player doesn't react to what you're doing and tries to only make Drones... Maybe all the Zerg players I go up against are just terrible? But I'm terrible, too, and since I'm having quite a bit of success with this against people in my skill bracket I'm going to keep on doing it (these replays are 2 Diamond players and a Platinum player, just so everyone knows. The earlier ones I posted were a Masters and a Diamond player). I just know there has to be a smoother way to do this, but it's hard to tell where it should be smoother when my build order is all over the place due to my lack of multi-tasking ability. Kinda frustrating, to be honest! Yeah those zergs were pretty terrible TBH. I honestly have no idea what they were doing because they applied no pressure nor did they even macro well. I honestly feel a good zerg could bust that third of yours every time. You expand before even scouting the zerg 3rd even. I think a good rule of thumb is don't expand before the zerg unless you really know what you're doing. But that aside there are a few things I noticed. If you scout no gas I would make a 2nd stalker for more harass potential. In all those games you scout no gas and this could've been taken advantage of. Remember, that is the whole frigging point of this opening, the stalker harass, so you want to maximize this. I also think you can scout a lot later to help your econ a little bit. You could easily scout @ 15 or 16 with this opening. And I still feel you're way better off being more aggressive mid game with this opening than getting that a third that early, but whatever floats your boat. You also want to mix in more zealots early. You switch out of zealots after you force roaches. Forcing roaches is a big deal because it delays tech like mutas or infestors which could spell disaster for you. Most zergs from my experiences don't do late 3rd hatch build like that as it is frankly a pretty terrible build. It's either fast 3rd hatch or 2-base tech. Like in those games where they went late 3rd hatch you could easily denied it by just mixing in more zealots in your composition, then run him over with +2 blink stalker/sentry and not even have to expand at all. It's like the old saying goes if you're on equal bases as zerg you're pretty much ahead. Well, that's kinda the whole point - it's hard to tell where I should be doing things more smoothly when the people I come up against are just as bad at this game as I am. That's why I was asking for advice. I mean, perhaps it would be better to delay the third base until after I've warped in a couple more rounds of units from my 3 Gateways (and confirmed a third base from my opponent). Using Sentry/Zealot or Sentry/Stalker pressure against that third base whilst setting up my own third base has the potential to be pretty strong because that's a timing when most Zerg players struggle to defend against pure Zealot pressure (which doesn't come with Forcefields and is therefore weaker). I'll try messing with the timings some more later. EDIT: I understand your point about mixing in more Zealots, that does indeed seem desirable. I always scout on 9 in every match-up. As far as PvZ goes, I don't think the added economy is worth getting 6/7-pooled and not knowing about it beforehand. Early-pools are another reason I dislike the FFE because you're basically hoping they don't early-pool.
Just remember I am being very very general here about your 3rd timing. You kind of just have to figure out good times to get your 3rd. Like in those games actually your 3rd was pretty safe because zerg got a late hatch and seemed to have no tech either and just attacked with a small force of lings. Usually when you see a later hatch like that they at least have speed roaches out.
And like I say don't expand unless you see zerg expand. Generally speaking that is ok. But if you say scout 2-base muta with halluncination or observers or something before mutas are out then grabbing a 3rd before zerg is quite good unless you plan to 2-base all-in. But if they went 2-base infestorling they you probably wouldn't be able to hold your 3rd. In those games you were ok with that 3rd because they actually choose to get a late 3rd instead of tech, but you didn't scout the 3rd you just blindly grabbed it. Also I'm not saying vs a fast 3rd hatch you can't grab your 3rd really fast, I was saying that IMO there are better openings for that very particular purpose. I hope that clears that up.
In regards to the probe scout timing I don't really feel you have to 9 scout unless you FFE. Early scouts with gateway openings really don't achieve much other than delaying their hatch with your probe which I don't feel is worth the economic loss personally. For instance with no probe scout you can 12 gate instead of 13 gate for slightly faster pressure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
