|
Thanks again for all the happy b-days! Also please post up replays of trying out the opening if you enjoyed the thread! It'd be cool to have a more example-oriented discussion as the norm of threads on TL. I'll even put up your replay in the OP 
On December 19 2011 17:29 Mugya wrote:Happy Bday Cecil! I've been a follower of all your guides and I think they are great for any Protoss player, both new and experienced! This is somewhat out of the guide but can you explain: 1. Why you setup your buildings at your ramp like that where your Pylon is exposed? Just curious why you don't go for the traditional Gateway/CC Wall-off. 2. Is there a case where you wouldn't use this build (besides obviously 6 pools and the like where you see early pressure like that coming. Would you favor doing something else if you see something like 15 Hatch or an 11 Pool? Thank you again all your help and keep up the good work!
1. You do this to get your Gateways at the Natural easily and early. Also if lings try to attack this, free lings! Chase them away with your Zealot and Zealot/Stalker when the Stalker finishes, and plug the hole in your wall with the Probe you'll use to make your Nexus.
2. Don't use it on Tal'Darim altar due to the Natural. Other than that all current maps are fair game. If there's a 15 hatch that means delayed vespene, which like I said in the OP means more early Stalkers. Against 11 pool I'd likely chrono the first Zealot and get an earlier third Pylon, perhaps a slight probe production cut as well to get out an earlier Stalker (Chrono'd) after the Zealot.
On December 19 2011 16:30 Belial88 wrote:
What time does your nexus go down? I believe a 'standard' 1 gate sentry expand throws down the nexus at 4:30 (maybe 5:00? Although I don't think so... pretty sure it's 4:30 at quickest).
I'd love to see how you hold against someone who goes 14/14 ling all-in. can you provide a replay, or we can do it online (belial.869).
I think there were a few games of... i believe leenock against some protoss on crossfire. I think it was naniwa on the 6oclock, losing very frustratingly, to leenock at 12, on that map. like one of his first gsl games.
I suppose if you wait on the nexus, like throw it down at 6:00 or 5:30 instead, you might be able to get it up. I think that's just a 1 gate expand that's delayed. I think a 3 gate sentry expand would be more economic than a 6:00 1 gate expand?
Maybe the key difference is when you are cutting probes. If you are placing a good sim city with those 2 gates, with cut probe production, maybe it works?
But I just took it as fact, based on experience and vods i've seen, that you can't 1 gate expand vs 14/14 or speedling openings in general. From what I understand, you'll both have 3 units out against 1 and 3 gate expands, but the difference is with 1 gate expand you wno't be warping in those 3 critical next units to deal with the mass lings from denying the nexus.
Dunno when Nexus goes down. Replay against GM player doing a ling allin off of 14/14 in replay pack. Hold pretty convincingly. You should always be able to given a good sim-city in my experience. Ling allins only work against me if I'm caught out of position and off-guard.
On December 19 2011 16:42 RabidSeagull wrote:
Happy bday, Cecil, nice guide but I did want to ask: do you prefer this opening to a forge fast expand and why? I like the 1gate expand better myself but a lot of people have been telling me to ffe with a rationale of it being better economically.
I don't really like the pacing of FFE much. I can play both styles equally as I feel it's important to be a well-rounded player, but I honestly just like the pacing a 1 Gate FE puts the game in.
On December 19 2011 17:12 ElMacedonian wrote:
1 gas and a stalker plus warp gate, do you have to wait till your second hundred gas to get a sentry, with sentries ariving so late can any form of pressure such as seven roach rush, any banling play (u have pics of xel, im thinking of nestea game where he comes in from back path). but it just seems scary to me to not have a forge or high sentry count with a fast expand. happy bday btw
I don't think the Sentries are as late as you're imagining.
|
I've seen this on HwangSing stream pretty often if someone wants to see executions and transitions.
Very goodjob Cecil, as usual, we all thx you
|
Italy12246 Posts
*sings completely out of tune* Happy birthday to youuuu, happy birthday dear Cecil, happy birthday to youuuu!!
Anyway, thanks for the guide, i don't really have a refined pvz opening and this helps a lot.
The one gas come to think of it makes perfect sense, since as far as i know one gas can support one gate making sentries ^^
|
I watched the replays.
In game 2 the guy was doing something weird (making an evo chamber? got supply blocked at 26) but he had enough units. He waited too long to push was all.
However your sim city was pretty crazy there on shakuras. It may have been possible to hold, I'm really, really not sure, maybe on maps you can choke up like that you can maybe get away with it, but I think that you would've died if he just attacked instead of clearing the watch towers, not gotten supply blocked, and just pushed earlier.
|
I don't understand exactly why you would want to do this over a standard 2 gas sentry expand. Gas is pivotal in PvZ so collecting more faster is great and sentries are very solid for expanding quickly as they have convenient cost and abilities to do so.
It's much harder to hold pressure without sentries and the sentries won't delay your expo much compared to this if at all.
You'll reach mineral saturation using 1 geyser pretty quickly anyway that you might as well use the second geyser imo.. If they open speedling, which is quite common at maps where you don't FFE, you can't expo super quickly anyways so you're better off utilizing the second gas.
|
Cool guide. I've been figuring out a way to use my micro/multitasking to my advantage to pressure on a 1 gas build.
|
I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
Realistically, you'll only do this on maps like XNC and Metal where FFE is shaky against roaches and banelings, and those maps happen to be the maps where this opening is most vulnerable to speedlings.
I've done the opening probably a hundred or so games, and it's really hard to defend against ~20 speedlings that are timed to hit right after you start your nexus. You die if you leave your ramp, so your first nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled. So you have to wait until you have a force big enough to kill 20 speedlings, and then you have to try to defend your nexus from lings while simultaneously defending your ramp which is out of forcefield range from your nexus.
If you control well enough, you don't die, but your nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled at least once, and then it will be delayed further while you build a workable force off of 1 gateway.
|
|
|
On December 19 2011 23:55 kcdc wrote:
I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
Realistically, you'll only do this on maps like XNC and Metal where FFE is shaky against roaches and banelings, and those maps happen to be the maps where this opening is most vulnerable to speedlings.
I've done the opening probably a hundred or so games, and it's really hard to defend against ~20 speedlings that are timed to hit right after you start your nexus. You die if you leave your ramp, so your first nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled. So you have to wait until you have a force big enough to kill 20 speedlings, and then you have to try to defend your nexus from lings while simultaneously defending your ramp which is out of forcefield range from your nexus.
If you control well enough, you don't die, but your nexus is guaranteed to be cancelled at least once, and then it will be delayed further while you build a workable force off of 1 gateway.
Yeah if you go 14/14 it's common to watch for pylon at the bottom of the ramp before spending the first inject, and that lets you cancel the nexus. 1gate owns vs pool hatch gas though.
|
I know Artosis often comments that 1-Gate expand vs a speedling expand (14/14) means a guaranteed Nexus cancel vs a smart Zerg. Whether that is true or not I have no idea because I never go 1-Gate expand vs gas first, and I only Gate expand on XNC and Metal where a Zerg will almost always go Gas first.
What is your reasoning though for Gate expand vs a speedling expand though? I understand its merits vs a gasless expand (which is becoming more common due to FFEs being more standard nowadays) since it gives you a bigger window to do damage with stalkers, but in my experiences I can never really do that much damage vs a speedling opener since I won't have more than 2 stalkers by the time speed is done. The economic difference between a gate expand and FFE is not insignificant, and a FFE is actually stronger vs a gas opening (which is why zergs now delay speed vs FFEs).
I must say I do like that wall-off though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it that way before.
|
On December 20 2011 02:07 Skyro wrote:
I know Artosis often comments that 1-Gate expand vs a speedling expand (14/14) means a guaranteed Nexus cancel vs a smart Zerg. Whether that is true or not I have no idea because I never go 1-Gate expand vs gas first, and I only Gate expand on XNC and Metal where a Zerg will almost always go Gas first.
What is your reasoning though for Gate expand vs a speedling expand though? I understand its merits vs a gasless expand (which is becoming more common due to FFEs being more standard nowadays) since it gives you a bigger window to do damage with stalkers, but in my experiences I can never really do that much damage vs a speedling opener since I won't have more than 2 stalkers by the time speed is done. The economic difference between a gate expand and FFE is not insignificant, and a FFE is actually stronger vs a gas opening (which is why zergs now delay speed vs FFEs).
I must say I do like that wall-off though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it that way before.
I can't speak for Cecil, but I will note that you have to choose between FFE and gate expand before you have any idea what Z is doing. Choosing between FFE and gate expand should be a response to the map, but it can't be a response to Z's opening. You can, however, respond to Z's opening by waiting for additional gates, tech or army before expanding. The question is how greedy you can get away with being.
And you're right that the stalker does no damage vs speedling openings. Speed finishes at 5 min which leaves roughly enough time for a chronoboosted stalker to get to Z's base, fire one shot, and immediately retreat.
|
On December 20 2011 02:40 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 02:07 Skyro wrote:
I know Artosis often comments that 1-Gate expand vs a speedling expand (14/14) means a guaranteed Nexus cancel vs a smart Zerg. Whether that is true or not I have no idea because I never go 1-Gate expand vs gas first, and I only Gate expand on XNC and Metal where a Zerg will almost always go Gas first.
What is your reasoning though for Gate expand vs a speedling expand though? I understand its merits vs a gasless expand (which is becoming more common due to FFEs being more standard nowadays) since it gives you a bigger window to do damage with stalkers, but in my experiences I can never really do that much damage vs a speedling opener since I won't have more than 2 stalkers by the time speed is done. The economic difference between a gate expand and FFE is not insignificant, and a FFE is actually stronger vs a gas opening (which is why zergs now delay speed vs FFEs).
I must say I do like that wall-off though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it that way before.
I can't speak for Cecil, but I will note that you have to choose between FFE and gate expand before you have any idea what Z is doing. Choosing between FFE and gate expand should be a response to the map, but it can't be a response to Z's opening. You can, however, respond to Z's opening by waiting for additional gates, tech or army before expanding. The question is how greedy you can get away with being. And you're right that the stalker does no damage vs speedling openings. Speed finishes at 5 min which leaves roughly enough time for a chronoboosted stalker to get to Z's base, fire one shot, and immediately retreat.
Yes you do have to choose b/w Gate expand or FFE before you can scout the Zerg due to the initial Pylon placement, but as you allude to in a previous post, if your goal is a macro game you really only have an incentive to Gate expand on XNC and Metal out of the current (season 4) map pool, which gas first from Zerg is very common. Look how it breaks down:
1) Map favors FFE -> You FFE
2) Map does not favor FFE -> You Gate expand, scout Gas first, then proceed to 3-Gate expand
3) Map does not favor FFE -> You Gate expand, scout Pool or Hatch first, you can now 1-Gate expand
Thus it is quite rare, relatively speaking, to even have the option to 1-Gate expand in the current map Pool, assuming it is true a Speedling open can at least force a Nexus cancel. The frequency you can use this opener however might change with the introduction of the 2 new season 5 map with AFAIK fairly wide open naturals.
I guess my question was more regarding the OP seeming to attribute the strength of the opener over FFE due to the map presence you have with a gate expand. While this is true it is true only during the window speed is not done, and that window is so small vs a speedling expand that IMO it is simply not worth it.
|
Happy bday. Can't wait to read this when i have time 
|
i watched that game against phone, really nice play. i was so inspired i tried it out and it worked like a charm. thanks cecil!
also happy bday!
|
On December 19 2011 20:45 Belial88 wrote:However your sim city was pretty crazy there on shakuras. It may have been possible to hold, I'm really, really not sure, maybe on maps you can choke up like that you can maybe get away with it, but I think that you would've died if he just attacked instead of clearing the watch towers, not gotten supply blocked, and just pushed earlier.
On December 19 2011 23:55 kcdc wrote:
I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
On December 19 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
Please post up replays of trying out this opening! Discussion from examples and interaction with the original post by example is a great way to help create a quality thread. I'll post replays you submit to this list!
Lets get some example replays of this discussion then
Luckily I have one:
http://drop.sc/76362
Shows me over-probing way too hard against an allin and throwing away a solid game. Judging from this I'd say it's close, but if you edge over with a building or two more from your walloff with the Gateways you should be fine (notice my pylon for doing just this). You also might want to move the second Gateway to the right on tile to reach over even farther. Also I kinda threw away my Zealot too.
|
On December 20 2011 06:40 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 20:45 Belial88 wrote:However your sim city was pretty crazy there on shakuras. It may have been possible to hold, I'm really, really not sure, maybe on maps you can choke up like that you can maybe get away with it, but I think that you would've died if he just attacked instead of clearing the watch towers, not gotten supply blocked, and just pushed earlier. Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 23:55 kcdc wrote:
I think this is perfectly safe against delayed gas, but I'm not convinced that it's safe against a 14/14 speedling expand.
Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 14:12 CecilSunkure wrote:
Please post up replays of trying out this opening! Discussion from examples and interaction with the original post by example is a great way to help create a quality thread. I'll post replays you submit to this list!
Lets get some example replays of this discussion then Luckily I have one: http://drop.sc/76362Shows me over-probing way too hard against an allin and throwing away a solid game. Judging from this I'd say it's close, but if you edge over with a building or two more from your walloff with the Gateways you should be fine (notice my pylon for doing just this). You also might want to move the second Gateway to the right on tile to reach over even farther. Also I kinda threw away my Zealot too.
from that replay it didnt really look like the speedling expand was the problem there. i think 14/14 speedling is definitely manageable, you just have to be careful with it
|
On December 19 2011 18:20 CecilSunkure wrote:
1. You do this to get your Gateways at the Natural easily and early. Also if lings try to attack this, free lings! Chase them away with your Zealot and Zealot/Stalker when the Stalker finishes, and plug the hole in your wall with the Probe you'll use to make your Nexus.
Sorry I should have specified. I was talking about your high ground where you put your 1st Pylon on the high ground then finish the wall-off with the Gateway and the CC. Just wondering why you wall off that way instead of with just Gateway and CC?
|
Heya Cecil,
im a high diamond player and as you like these gateway expands rather than the forge ones. Just wanted to ask if you have tried progressing into a 5 gate double forge in order to get your 3rd by using this build vs zerg? I was thinking that the faster upgrades could give u a stronger / bigger gateway force to get ur 3rd up and then tech once that is fully functional, or is it still better to go colo / ht / blink either of those 3 routes against zerg?
cheers
|
On December 20 2011 11:53 Mugya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 18:20 CecilSunkure wrote:
1. You do this to get your Gateways at the Natural easily and early. Also if lings try to attack this, free lings! Chase them away with your Zealot and Zealot/Stalker when the Stalker finishes, and plug the hole in your wall with the Probe you'll use to make your Nexus.
Sorry I should have specified. I was talking about your high ground where you put your 1st Pylon on the high ground then finish the wall-off with the Gateway and the CC. Just wondering why you wall off that way instead of with just Gateway and CC?
Oh that's so the Zealot up top isn't reachable by Roaches on the low ground. Just an old habit.
On December 20 2011 12:18 Gugliz0r wrote:
Heya Cecil,
im a high diamond player and as you like these gateway expands rather than the forge ones. Just wanted to ask if you have tried progressing into a 5 gate double forge in order to get your 3rd by using this build vs zerg? I was thinking that the faster upgrades could give u a stronger / bigger gateway force to get ur 3rd up and then tech once that is fully functional, or is it still better to go colo / ht / blink either of those 3 routes against zerg?
cheers
I have not tried that. Sounds a bit strange to me, but I suppose you can pull it off against just Roaches. I'd imagine other tech like Muta, Hydra, or Infestor might be a different story though.
|
Upon going gateway first builds, your scout reaches the zerg when you plant your gateway (9 pylon, first place you scout) and you see that he's about to go hatch first.
In such case, by the time your zealot arrives at the zerg's natural, his pool will be just finished and 4 lings will be produced. Now what do you do? A zealot and probe isn't going to survive long when there are 4 lings and more coming.
Speed finishes, you plant your Nexus, you have a zealot, stalker, sentry (second nearly done). Here is where your the utmost vulnerable, your survival hinges on your 2 forcefields (your first sentry won't have the energy for 2 yet). The 2 gateways are probably just about to be planted down. Remember, even when your warpgates are up, you don't have enough gas yet to keep up sentry production.
Alas, if the zerg does not capitalise on that timing window (about 45 seconds ish) then this build will work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
