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On December 20 2011 14:52 Zariel wrote:
Upon going gateway first builds, your scout reaches the zerg when you plant your gateway (9 pylon, first place you scout) and you see that he's about to go hatch first.
In such case, by the time your zealot arrives at the zerg's natural, his pool will be just finished and 4 lings will be produced. Now what do you do? A zealot and probe isn't going to survive long when there are 4 lings and more coming.
Speed finishes, you plant your Nexus, you have a zealot, stalker, sentry (second nearly done). Here is where your the utmost vulnerable, your survival hinges on your 2 forcefields (your first sentry won't have the energy for 2 yet). The 2 gateways are probably just about to be planted down. Remember, even when your warpgates are up, you don't have enough gas yet to keep up sentry production.
Alas, if the zerg does not capitalise on that timing window (about 45 seconds ish) then this build will work.
I find that if the gas is delayed by much, two Stalkers out of the first Gateway can cause a lot of havoc. If speed is finished fast enough to not warrant two Stalkers, I attack cross-map with a Zealot/Stalker and focus Chrono on my Nexuses.
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happy birthday in late !^^
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Super useful! Thanks for the guide!
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Damn, nice guide. As a Zerg I'm reading this for insights into Protoss treachery 
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Canada13430 Posts
On December 21 2011 02:18 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 14:52 Zariel wrote:
Upon going gateway first builds, your scout reaches the zerg when you plant your gateway (9 pylon, first place you scout) and you see that he's about to go hatch first.
In such case, by the time your zealot arrives at the zerg's natural, his pool will be just finished and 4 lings will be produced. Now what do you do? A zealot and probe isn't going to survive long when there are 4 lings and more coming.
Speed finishes, you plant your Nexus, you have a zealot, stalker, sentry (second nearly done). Here is where your the utmost vulnerable, your survival hinges on your 2 forcefields (your first sentry won't have the energy for 2 yet). The 2 gateways are probably just about to be planted down. Remember, even when your warpgates are up, you don't have enough gas yet to keep up sentry production.
Alas, if the zerg does not capitalise on that timing window (about 45 seconds ish) then this build will work. I find that if the gas is delayed by much, two Stalkers out of the first Gateway can cause a lot of havoc. If speed is finished fast enough to not warrant two Stalkers, I attack cross-map with a Zealot/Stalker and focus Chrono on my Nexuses.
I've been playing with 1 gate FE with one gas after watching Artosis' stream 
Its nice to see a guide written down so I can avoid the embarassing losses i've been having due to mass speedling and poor timing on my part (I was going off twitch vods and not even replays -_-).
Something to note for clarity purposes:
You do 1 zeal one stalker then get the sentry to be safe right? Would it make more sense to get 2 stalkers after the first zealot if they go hatch first (since speed will be delayed). Are you trying to time the sentry with the speed upgrade finishing for Z in that case? Or is getting 2 sentries (after stalker) always safer?
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I will be trying this build out tons, as I have been having a tough time with FFE lately.
First question: in your opening section, you list building a nexus BEFORE cutting probe production. Wouldn't you want to cut probe before getting the nexus to get it faster? Or is there something I'm missing about this opening?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 28 2011 12:43 charliexjustice wrote:
I will be trying this build out tons, as I have been having a tough time with FFE lately.
First question: in your opening section, you list building a nexus BEFORE cutting probe production. Wouldn't you want to cut probe before getting the nexus to get it faster? Or is there something I'm missing about this opening?
Without cutting probes i throw my nexus at 30. It works fine for me, at least for now.
Really brilliant opening i must say. I never did like FFE and i was getting sick and tired of my poor openings vs zerg, this opening is something i really enjoy studying through games and i will continue to use it. It's obvious how potent it is. Thanks Cecil.
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On December 29 2011 07:44 Mesha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 12:43 charliexjustice wrote:
I will be trying this build out tons, as I have been having a tough time with FFE lately.
First question: in your opening section, you list building a nexus BEFORE cutting probe production. Wouldn't you want to cut probe before getting the nexus to get it faster? Or is there something I'm missing about this opening? Without cutting probes i throw my nexus at 30. It works fine for me, at least for now. Really brilliant opening i must say. I never did like FFE and i was getting sick and tired of my poor openings vs zerg, this opening is something i really enjoy studying through games and i will continue to use it. It's obvious how potent it is. Thanks Cecil.
I don't believe I cut probes until I lay the Nexus! Check replays for verification.
On December 24 2011 22:02 ZeromuS wrote:
You do 1 zeal one stalker then get the sentry to be safe right? Would it make more sense to get 2 stalkers after the first zealot if they go hatch first (since speed will be delayed). Are you trying to time the sentry with the speed upgrade finishing for Z in that case? Or is getting 2 sentries (after stalker) always safer?
You get the Sentry because you definitely need it to be safe. Two Stalkers only works if you know Speedlings will be delayed enough to make a second Stalker worth the trouble i.e. 8 minute Speedlings. 2 Sentries after the first Stalker is what you do most games, and up in higher levels almost everyone goes 14/14 Speedlings, or fast hatch fast speed so I rarely make use of a second Stalker.
Edit: FUCK I WASTED MY 1337 POST SHIT OH WELL I HOPE YOU ENJOY MY ADVICE IN MY 1337 POST LOL
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I had randomly started doing this style only on Antiga because zergs seem to always double-expo on that map... but I'm glad someone with far more skill than I has done a proper guide to it!
I generally went with really early 3gate pressure, hitting up some colossus as soon as the nat was mining nicely. With the 3gate zealot/stalker pressure it really put Zerg players on the back foot, then once the colo is up, it's GG. Thanks CecilSunkure!
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Just got promoted to master division! .
The game was vs. zerg and i used this opening and guess what? Since i saw a late gas i knew i could harass with my zealot and stalker - the guy was totally surprised when i started walking around his base and killing stuff, he completely overreacted and made shit ton of lings! The rest was easy, i could have won the game any way i desired. Thanks again Cecil, i really like this opening, makes my zerg game interesting from the start.
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How would you fend off a Leenock style roach rush? It comes out before your extra gateways and before the forge.
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On December 31 2011 00:50 Lebzetu wrote:
How would you fend off a Leenock style roach rush? It comes out before your extra gateways and before the forge.
It's tough but you have to have good force fields basically. I've fended them off with good FF, chrono on the Gates and getting up the additional Gateways on-time.
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Hi, i have been trying this build out and i love it but i always am getting overrun by lings. If i don't face a mass ling attack which puts very far behind (forcing cancel on nexus) i am in a very good position but i really struggle not losing lots to an early attack when i'm trying to establish my expansion, which it feels like is a very common response to my zealot stalker pressure forcing lings.
Any tips on having better understanding if they are going to allin after i have to back off with zealot and stalker, or tips holding the actual attack.
Thanks
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On January 03 2012 23:19 Jev wrote:
Hi, i have been trying this build out and i love it but i always am getting overrun by lings. If i don't face a mass ling attack which puts very far behind (forcing cancel on nexus) i am in a very good position but i really struggle not losing lots to an early attack when i'm trying to establish my expansion, which it feels like is a very common response to my zealot stalker pressure forcing lings.
Any tips on having better understanding if they are going to allin after i have to back off with zealot and stalker, or tips holding the actual attack.
Thanks
First of all. Gas timing + 3min15seconds is when lings will have speed. Second. Get your build tight! No way you can be shorter than 2 sentries, stalker, zealot when the earliest push comes. Think of good positioning and pylon placement for every position, so you can have one choke that can be plugged with one force field. My example - antiga - gateways are connected to nexus, i throw pylon behind minerals so there is no room for lings to pass and then i need only 1 ff to stop or break in half incoming lings.
Also, try to read if your opponent is overreacting, and if you know lings are coming chrono gates and dont get supply blocked if you are having hard time stopping speed lings. GL
Personally, there is no greater feeling than seeing bunch of lings with this build, haha. Because i know opponent is tilting, but there is nothing he can do but hit his head on the wall. ^^
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Hey, Cecil, thanks for another great guide. I'm at work, or just about to start work really so I can't watch the replays, and am just wondering as to the timing of the Nexus as the natural? Also, doesn't mining off one gas impede Sentry production (although you should be able to afford the 300 gas for WG; Stalker; 2 Sentries by the time WG research finishes) and mean that you can't get Hallu at this stage of the game? How quickly do you get your other gases up considering you may want Sentries asap from your other gates when they come online?
Edit/ Nvm, just watched the replays. Thanks.
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Mid master protoss EU here.
I've been trying this build for a while because I'm tired of FFE but I can't win any game with it.
I do a slightly variation, after my nexus I make a gate and a forge instead of 2 gates, then I build two additional gates after I made either robo, twilight or stargate.
The opening goes fine but I just don't know how to continue after it.
When I ffe I know that I have to pressure the zergs' third (I usually do the +1 zealot + voidray timing), but when I use this build I don't know how to take a quick third or how to do a timing to kill the third.
I made a replay pack of last night pvzs...they're all losses.
Can someone give them a look and tell me if there's something in particular that I'm doing wrong?
Watching the replays myself I see that I suck with FFs and at scouting...
Any tip is well accepted.
Thank you
Replay pack (6 games)
Edit: Played some more games today, I scouted better and made better ffs (kind of :p)...here's 3 replays of 3 victories.
Replay pack (3 games)
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Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers.
I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested.
For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke.
I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries.
Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard.
Replays
I'd love for critisism and advice on the following:
1-gate expo into 2base all in
In this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third.
1-gate expo into losing everything
This game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball.
So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
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On January 30 2012 16:35 SlackerSC wrote:Hello, my first post on TL.net! I'm a Platinum level Protoss playing on the SEA & NA servers. I have been having trouble with PvZ for a long time. For the last month or so I've been trying my best to FFE, then pressure the Zerg's third base, with very limited success. I just hate the way FFE feels. I don't like the feeling of giving up map presence for the first ten minutes. I don't like playing so defensive and playing catch up with the Zerg's economy if he manages to take his third unmolested. For the last week or so I've taken a new attitude of being very aggressive off of gateway expands. I've been unwittingly doing this exact build for the most part. I open with the intent of 1 gate expanding. If I see gas I abandon the build and go for 3-gate sentry expand, else I get the zealot+stalker and have a poke. I like to follow the poke up with a fourth gateway and a big push if I get the impression he's trying to drone up (eg. I see a few slow lings, or a third base). I like to be very aggressive, while doing my best not to be all-in. I like the attitude of forcing the zerg to make units rather than drones + hatcheries. Are you still finding this gateway style effective at your level Cecil? I am having a lot more fun playing this way rather than the FFE standard. ReplaysI'd love for critisism and advice on the following: 1-gate expo into 2base all inIn this game I manage to kill off his third with a gateway push and get a massive worker lead. I retreat and push into him again with blink and win. I feel that it could have been a little smoother with transitions, but he also could have engaged a bit better and maybe not lost his third. 1-gate expo into losing everythingThis game I feel does a pretty good job of demonstrating what I like about this style (up until the 14 minute mark). I am even on workers and supply, the zergs made a shit load of spines and lings, and was very late taking his third. I have a really poor engagement at 14 minutes and lose a lot of my army. I also don't do a very good job of scouting and never see his third. From then on it's a easy loss to a Muta ball. So in conclusion, is this still a viable style? What do you like to transition into most often once you've secured your expo? Do you like the idea of a 4gate push after your first round of warpins at home (if you see an early third for example?)
I only watched the second game, but the 4gate pressure was kinda good as it forced units and you didnt lose anything so very good non-commital aggression, however you saw he only had lings and a couple spines the could mean only infestor or muta. If muta you need to get a third up very fast and get alot of cannons, you will never win on 2 base vs muta (ur third was too late so he could easily snipe it need cannans there quicker). I didnt like your continued aggression after the 4gate push at all, what you needed to do was scout the zerg and counter him. Oh and vs infestor you just need collusus they own infestor ling super hard.
My recommendation to you is do the 4gate push but also get hullusination and scout the zerg around 8 minutes to see his tech path, it is critical that you are ready for muta before they hit, or you wont win, this means third base cannons and temps on the way. Sorry I think I got a bit repetitive there.
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EPT
