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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
It's nice to be acknowledged.
On December 08 2011 16:38 unit wrote:
out of interest could you post a guide detailing how you get to this point? for instance how you go about testing each possibility and refining your knowledge about the style/build to get to this final stage that you show us here?
Ok, here's a miniguide:
Watch the vods/replays, write down the build, then try to understand every action and decision behind the moves that the player makes in relation to the scouting information he receives. Watch the vods/replays over and over again to get everything in. Then just play a lot and lose a lot. Watch the replays where you lost and figure out how you can fix those problems. After you come up with a solution, try to get a practice partner to do the thing you lost to see if your adjustment works. It's kinda like scientific method. Once you're only losing because of your own mistakes, stuff like lack of multitasking, scouting, or bad unit positioning, and not because of the actual build.
Here's some examples of problems I ran into with the build. I used to tweak it a bit, getting 3 initial obs, 5 sentry, and 3 immortals, and earlier gas timing instead of 2 initial obs, 4 sentry, and 2 immortals as Creator does. What ended up happening was all this extra stuff was delaying my 4/5/6th gates. I then felt compelled to make a cannon at my front vs normal 3 rax starport because of my low zealot count. Then, the terran just did a 2 medivac drop into my base and I couldn't deny it even though i saw it because of my low stalker count. And my low stalker count was because of that extra sentry/obs/immortal/cannon plus the fact that my gates still weren't up. So at this point I took too much economic damage from the first drop and essentially lost the game there. My conclusion was that with that current exact build, I couldn't defend that drop and I asked myself why did I lose? The immediate answer was lack of stalkers to deny the drop. Why? Because my 4/5/6th gates were late and I was slightly money starved. Why? Because I invested into an extra obs/sentry/immortal/cannon. So what I did was cut all of those out. 3 early game observers is actually just kinda useless before drops are out. 5th sentry doesn't do too much as I'm not relying too much on forcefields. 3rd immortal drags my army down a lot as I found out I'd much rather have extra zealots anyways if it came to a straight up fight. And I took later gas to further boost my mineral income. From these simple changes, I came closer to the original creator build and gained a greater understanding and appreciation of his build.
On December 08 2011 17:47 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:16 unit wrote:On December 08 2011 16:13 K3Nyy wrote:
The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no? if terran does this then the protoss is suddenly able to become super greedy themselves and it would end up even in that sense Can they? Protoss is investing so much in forges/upgrades/twilight/blink and a lot of Stalkers. MMM are ridiculous cost efficient vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry and without the upgrades and Blink kicking in, I really don't think they'd be able to hold the expansion. Not to mention, there's actually no way to scout whether the Terran has a 3rd or not that early until Protoss gets a Robo, which is going to be quite a while away.
Yes, you will fall economically behind if the terran goes 1 rax cc into 3rd cc. But honestly any non allin falls behind that. There are 2 things that prevent you from taking an early 3 normally, massive pushes and drops. Because terran took an early expand, he'll be down initially by 400, so you can invest an equally costly 400 into a nexus and you'll each be down 400 when the push comes. In addition, it's very very unlikely the terran will push anytime soon after he takes such an early 3rd. Also, there's no chance of drops spreading you out too thin vs an early third.
On December 08 2011 18:38 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
On topic, how does this do vs mech? From the guide: Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech. Edit: another question on the build: i always thought that when going double forge you should try to time the twilight council to finish right as 1/1 finishes, so you can start 2/2 right away. Is it that important to get it faster for faster blink/charge, like in this variation of the build?
Not super important in that it's essential. However, if you know for a fact that he's going fast medivacs, he probably won't push you early so it can't really hurt to get that earlier twilight. And blink is really good for versus medivac drops.
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lol I feel like a little platinum newbie when I say this, but I can't wait to go try this out! My PvT is easily my worst matchup atm and this looks really promising.
Thanks for the great guide, as usual.
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I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles.
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very nice guide, monk. i always enjoy your thought process analyses.
edit: this should help me clear out the kinks in my pvt. i am confident in my pvt, but there are just some games i lose where i go wtf where did i go wrong. overmaking sentries and immortals, not getting the 456 gates quick enough, two obs before immortals, earlier robo bay, those kinds of things.
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Very sexy way to play PvT, I will deffinetly incorparate this in my standard play.
I just have one question, is this anything close or different than that style MC has?
It feels almost the same except he goes HT for storm with warp prism drops, to prevent EMPing.
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I was watching Naniwa play some months ago after he first made the move to korea and started training and he adopted a very similar style to this opening fast expands into double forge plays, going archons in double robo collosus timings whilst researching storm - i've been meaning to work this more into my plays but ive been experimenting a lot with stargates lately.
After the blink research time increase i have started to feel a bit of a preference for charge - especially if the terran is playing aggressively, (blink is particularly useful for shutting down drops by sniping medivacs, but try dropping marines/rauders out 1 at a time with 3-4 zealots standing underneath them untill you can get blink - if he's lazy and sends a medivac or 2 with too much energy you just warp in HT's and feedback 1 shot them anyway)
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
Just because you tried it out a few times and it didn't work for you doesn't mean the whole strategy is unviable. I lost a lot too when I first started learning a new style, but I stuck with it, learned how to adapt, and ironed out the kinks. Now, I'm fairly successful with it at a high level. I never lose anymore cause of the build, but rather because of my personal mistakes and getting outplayed, which is exactly what you want from a safe/solid build. I'd also say going 5-0 in the semifinals of GSTL might give it some validation.
It seems to me that you simply have problems with drops, which is not the build's probably at all. In fact, I would argue that this build has an easier time with drops than something like fast colossi. If you're having problems with drops, it probably has to do with your vision. Use pylons and observers better.
In relation to defending a third. Yes, this build does rely on good forcefields before your first colossi pops out, but it's not like good forcefields are impossible without good terrain as you describe it. I honestly don't see the different between defending a frontal attack from your 3rd and at your natural.
On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles.
The rest of your post is just suggesting a completely different style that has nothing to do with this guide. Tbh this post just makes me feel that you're overly stubborn that the style you use is definitively the best and you're not willing to consider the merits of other styles.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 20:40 eYeball wrote:
Very sexy way to play PvT, I will deffinetly incorparate this in my standard play.
I just have one question, is this anything close or different than that style MC has?
It feels almost the same except he goes HT for storm with warp prism drops, to prevent EMPing.
It's very different. The only similarities are that MC gets double forge early and blink first but the similarities end there.
On December 08 2011 20:46 tsango wrote:
I was watching Naniwa play some months ago after he first made the move to korea and started training and he adopted a very similar style to this opening fast expands into double forge plays, going archons in double robo collosus timings whilst researching storm - i've been meaning to work this more into my plays but ive been experimenting a lot with stargates lately.
After the blink research time increase i have started to feel a bit of a preference for charge - especially if the terran is playing aggressively, (blink is particularly useful for shutting down drops by sniping medivacs, but try dropping marines/rauders out 1 at a time with 3-4 zealots standing underneath them untill you can get blink - if he's lazy and sends a medivac or 2 with too much energy you just warp in HT's and feedback 1 shot them anyway)
Nanaiwa's style was very different from what this is. His build was something like double forge into charge into archon into double robo colossi while this is double forge into blink into immortals into colossi into charge into archons.
As for blink vs charge, you can experiment with charge first. I personally favor blink as it deters and punishes dropping more. With good vision and practice, drops shouldn't be that huge a problem compared with charge first. Plus if you use zealots to deter drops, you'll have fewer zealots with your main army and a resource imbalance from so many zealots.
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I signed up to comment on this.
Thanks so much for writing this, I've been working really hard on my PvT and this guide contains a ton of useful information. I have also been closely studying the way MC executes 1gate FE and I do use his variant from time to time. I can't wait to read your guide on it.
A few weeks ago major was talking about 3 colossi being the money number to get and then switching back to immortal production and adding in archons based on scouting. It's very nice to see a cleaner write up of that here in this guide.
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On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles.
100% agree. I do think it's best to just get 8stalkers with blink first and then go mass chargelot/ht.
This is what I think about double forge:
- Going robo feels bad. It's nice to have the observers but imo it just costs too much and delays everything by too much.
It's better to go 3gate-double forges-gates. By doing this your forges can be at 7:00. With robo you just make everything so complicated. Your gates are later so ther's a timing where multipronged attacks are just insanely good. Also even with a colossi out your army feels weak, taking the third is so much harder with colossi. If you go ht your production is simply a lot higher and you can really overwhelm him with mass gateway and an upgrade advantage.
Also it's quite weird you specifically state in your guide that the more units you have the more important upgrades get, and then proceed to do a build that gets very slow gateway production.
- Get the extra gates at 8minish and the tc after it, it's a lot safer.
- Ht tech is better than colossi. You will have a lot of gas and with ht you can quickly dump that, while colossi build 1 by 1. If you have storm fast terran can't really do anything, while colossi only get good once you reach a high number ( pretty slow). Doing it this way also allows you to take the third a lot faster.
-After third is safe get up to 11gates and one robo for obs, take your fourth and get triple robo colossi for a deadly techswitch.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 21:06 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles. 100% agree. I do think it's best to just get 8stalkers with blink first and then go mass chargelot/ht. This is what I think about double forge: - Going robo feels bad. It's nice to have the observers but imo it just costs too much and delays everything by too much. It's better to go 3gate-double forges-gates. By doing this your forges can be at 7:00. With robo you just make everything so complicated. Your gates are later so ther's a timing where multipronged attacks are just insanely good. Also even with a colossi out your army feels weak, taking the third is so much harder with colossi. If you go ht your production is simply a lot higher and you can really overwhelm him with mass gateway and an upgrade advantage.
Yes, 3 gate into double robo is viable; it is one option, but you seem to ignore all the advantages of going robo first. Vs some expands, such as reactor expand with cc on high ground, it's almost essential that you get a robo in the case of a 1 base play.
Getting a robo allows you to spot for his tech and respond accordingly. The most important thing you can scout is an early 3rd cc. If you had just gone for a no obs build, you wouldn't be able to react by counter expanding and instead would just expand at your normal time.
You require blind cannons in your mineral lines to be safe vs cloaked banshees.
Blink stalkers defend drops much better when obs are involved.
Also it's quite weird you specifically state in your guide that the more units you have the more important upgrades get, and then proceed to do a build that gets very slow gateway production.
You're trying to argue the exact opposite of what I intended that tip to be for. You sacrifice army early on to get upgrades faster so your max can be as strong as possible. The whole purpose of the build is to be as safe as possible with a small army with few upgrades so that later on you can have a big army with big upgrades. At the mid-game timing, you don't care how big your army is as long as you can defend everything. You're not trying to be aggressive or anything.
- Get the extra gates at 8minish and the tc after it, it's a lot safer.
With a no robo build, sure. Not with this build though.
- Ht tech is better than colossi. You will have a lot of gas and with ht you can quickly dump that, while colossi build 1 by 1. If you have storm fast terran can't really do anything, while colossi only get good once you reach a high number ( pretty slow). Doing it this way also allows you to take the third a lot faster.
Complete opinion. Ht tech is not definitively better than colossi. Each has its advantages.
-After third is safe get up to 11gates and one robo for obs, take your fourth and get triple robo colossi for a deadly techswitch.
Again, just a completely different style. I'm going to tell you the same thing I told the other guy.
On December 08 2011 20:49 NrGmonk wrote:
This post just makes me feel that you're overly stubborn that the style you use is definitively the best and you're not willing to consider the merits of other styles.
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I've been using this style since the creator/genius games and I have to say I much prefer it to the fast colossus and fast single forge/tc styles. Overall it feels so much safer vs any form of harass with the fast blink and 2-3 obs allowing you to keep your 8-10 stalkers permanently in your main until he moves out as you always know where his army is and it has an answer to every push. Ive found even with tank/bio pushes off 2base are easily dealt with it if you get a faster tc for charge before blink you can wipe out any push with 1/1 chargelots. But in every other case Ive found blink first a must
Also the final game of hero v puma at DH finals is the perfect example of this build v a ghost timing, you delay your 4th 5th and 6th gates for more units and get a cannon up.
He also opts to go straight to storm aswell not bothering with archons which imo is better unless your going to basically go all in on 3-3 200
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 08 2011 20:49 NrGmonk wrote:
Just because you tried it out a few times and it didn't work for you doesn't mean the whole strategy is unviable. I lost a lot too when I first started learning a new style, but I stuck with it, learned how to adapt, and ironed out the kinks.
I played a lot of games with it and came to the conclusion, that the build limits you so much on certain maps/spawns, that it's not worth it. On a map where you have air space all around your main and a long way to your third, you can't deny damage, if you want to get your third reasonable quick (the timing creator uses). on these maps the most basic standard terran builds (3 rax, starport, ebay, third cc) outmacro you completely while they have the potential to kill probes or even a nexus/nexus cancel.
Now, I'm fairly successful with it at a high level. I never lose anymore cause of the build, but rather because of my personal mistakes and getting outplayed, which is exactly what you want from a safe/solid build. I'd also say going 5-0 in the semifinals of GSTL might give it some validation.
on tal darim the style is really solid. your bases are relatively close together, the distance between spawns is big. it's hard to drop without getting spotted.
game on belshir: Heart never tried to spread out Creator when he took his third. the third is so far away and you can drop the main from the center, that's just bad by Heart.
on crossfire colossi are just good. the game is over before it gets to third bases. however the game demonstrates that it's doable against a ghost push.
sculp tries to harras genius while he is on two bases. that's the point this style is the strongest, I think (immortals,1-1, 6 warpgates). He took his third way before genius, so there is no reason to loose the army like that.
jjakji gets his additional barracks and ghost academy before his third cc. this is bad against this build and it's by far not standard anymore.
It seems to me that you simply have problems with drops, which is not the build's probably at all. In fact, I would argue that this build has an easier time with drops than something like fast colossi. If you're having problems with drops, it probably has to do with your vision. Use pylons and observers better.
I don't have problems against drops. I agree with you, that creator's style has an easier time to deal with drops than fast colossus. But with the mass gateway zealot heavy style it's even easier. ESPECIALLY if you are spread out and try to take your third. if you miss one drop and don't shoot it down with your stalkers and all the units are out, stalkers are really bad. if you just have a hand full of zealots with charge in addition to some stalkers (+ warp ins) drops don't really do damage at all. and you can spread out, because you have the numbers
In relation to defending a third. Yes, this build does rely on good forcefields before your first colossi pops out, but it's not like good forcefields are impossible without good terrain as you describe it. I honestly don't see the different between defending a frontal attack from your 3rd and at your natural.
on some maps, there is a lot more open space to cover at your third than at your natural. in addition, if you are low on units, the terran can load up his trapped units and drop them behind the forcefields.
because you want immortals, stalkers, colossi and upgrades, you have a low sentry count. and you rely on those forcefields, because otherwise your colossi can get sniped etc. with upgraded chargelots and two archons behind them, you don't rely on them as much.
The rest of your post is just suggesting a completely different style that has nothing to do with this guide. Tbh this post just makes me feel that you're overly stubborn that the style you use is definitively the best and you're not willing to consider the merits of other styles.
haha. I just get the same impression of you. I said that the creator style is strong in certain situations and has it's weaknesses in others. I just explained a different double forge style which has it's edges in that situations. the creator build has the advantage that you get all your upgrades AND colossi out where as the other style gets a quicker third and does not take damage as much against harassment.
I am just saying, everyone should be aware of both styles and you shouldn't use the creator style in every situation.
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On December 08 2011 21:49 NrGmonk wrote:
Yes, 3 gate into double robo is viable; it is one option, but you seem to ignore all the advantages of going robo first. Vs some expands, such as reactor expand with cc on high ground, it's almost essential that you get a robo in the case of a 1 base play.
Getting a robo allows you to spot for his tech and respond accordingly. The most important thing you can scout is an early 3rd cc. If you had just gone for a no obs build, you wouldn't be able to react by counter expanding and instead would just expand at your normal time.
You require blind cannons in your mineral lines to be safe vs cloaked banshees.
Blink stalkers defend drops much better when obs are involved.
I get the robo just for observers. it doesn't interfere with the gameplan too much. you rarely get killed by an expansion build of the terran if you got 3 gates before robo. it delays the charge a little, but if I scout pressure (with the obs  ) I use some chrono on the charge instead on the forges. I can't remember a game where I lost in that stage of the game, which had anything to do with getting a robo.
so it's possible with robo and it feels even better with obs out.
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On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
perhaps its because they appreciate the work that the topic poster has done. Its not just this guide but a number of guides also he talks and helps in a lot more guides and quesitons asked. Im always keen to learn new builds and find the right build for me, and id always say thanks to someone who has provided a detailed strategy to help me improve my understanding of this game. The game I love.
Thanks for another guide!!! cannot wait for the next one!
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United States8476 Posts
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map.
This is the quote that made me think you weren't considering CreatorPrime style at all. Perhaps you meant "not viable on every map". If this were true, I'd be much more accepting of your statements, although I would still have to disagree with your assessment, because I believe if you play well, you can defend against anything.
Take your shakuras example. If you spawn top left, you can take the nook and cranny 3rd. You have basically 3 attack options for the terran. The right of your main can be covered by blink stalkers and an observer. The bottom of your natural and the right of your third can be covered by stationing your main army between your natural and third. Your stalkers can easily blink down to reinforce as well. If you really want to be safe, you can place a cannon in either your main or natural.
I'm not criticizing your suggested style at all. I'm just defending against the criticisms you made on Creator's style.
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On December 08 2011 23:06 NrGmonk wrote:This is the quote that made me think you weren't considering CreatorPrime style at all. Perhaps you meant "not viable on every map".
that's exactly what I meant. I am not a native speaker, so sorry for the confusion.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 21:50 decerto wrote:I've been using this style since the creator/genius games and I have to say I much prefer it to the fast colossus and fast single forge/tc styles. Overall it feels so much safer vs any form of harass with the fast blink and 2-3 obs allowing you to keep your 8-10 stalkers permanently in your main until he moves out as you always know where his army is and it has an answer to every push. Ive found even with tank/bio pushes off 2base are easily dealt with it if you get a faster tc for charge before blink you can wipe out any push with 1/1 chargelots. But in every other case Ive found blink first a must Also the final game of hero v puma at DH finals is the perfect example of this build v a ghost timing, you delay your 4th 5th and 6th gates for more units and get a cannon up. He also opts to go straight to storm aswell not bothering with archons which imo is better unless your going to basically go all in on 3-3 200 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo9WyFlzmA&feature=player_embedded
Yea, I didn't even realize Hero used creatorprime style in this game until you mentioned it. I'll be sure to make a note of it and analyze it in my guide. Also, I do agree that templar was a good choice over archons in this situation, but more on that later. Thanks!
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I'm a little curious about how you feel about delaying the robo. I personally make it a point to grab the two forges after gateways and before the robo, so around 630 or so if I can scout marauders. I usually open with Huk's 20 nexus build so if I'm poking and I see marauders, then I usually delay the robo by a good amount in favor of the two forges.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 09 2011 01:23 CaptainHaz wrote:
I'm a little curious about how you feel about delaying the robo. I personally make it a point to grab the two forges after gateways and before the robo, so around 630 or so if I can scout marauders. I usually open with Huk's 20 nexus build so if I'm poking and I see marauders, then I usually delay the robo by a good amount in favor of the two forges.
I can see this working only if you can confirm bio from your opponent and confirm your opponent has expanded before you throw down the forge. Doing both would be very hard. For example, if your opponent did a 1 rax no gas expand, he can choose to not show you any marauders and a good play will do so. Vs a 1 rax tech lab expand, your opponent might initially hide his cc in his main before you commit to forges or a robo. Also, without early obs, you will not be able to gather the information you need to do the responses i suggest.
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EPT
