EPT
NrGmonk wrote:
For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like:
FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation.
With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings.
10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small.
12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible.
14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note:
Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new.
Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening
Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
Here's a link of a game:
http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like:
FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation.
With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings.
10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small.
12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible.
14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note:
Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new.
Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening
Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
Here's a link of a game:
http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
Ever since HongunPrime displayed his double forge PvT style in one of the first GSLs, various Protosses have been trying to make early double forge work. Ever since then, there have been many innovations to make the style more solid. In the semifinals of the first season of GSTL, CreatorPrime and MVPGenius both showcased such a build that introduced cannons, immortals, and blink stalkers to allay the classic weaknesses of the double forge build. Combined they went 5-0 with the build at the highest level of competition. Since then, double forge PvT has been the standard in Korea and in fact this is the only macro PvT build that has been used consistently on high levels by a variety of players. Anyone can blindly follow a build order but in this guide, in addition to the actual build order, I will be adding my own reactions to scouting information that you may find.
Early Game: Precursor to the Build:
This guide assumes that you’ve done some type of expansion and have the infrastructure of 3 gates and a robo. Your opponent must have also done some type of expansion as well, either 1 rax no gas, 1 rax tech lab expand, or 2 rax expand. This guide will not cover this early game beyond this.
General Outline of the Build:
The following is a very general outline of the build based on timing and not supply. Do not follow these timings exactly in every game as they HEAVILY depend on reactions to what you scout and both your and your opponents’ exact openings. If anything, these timings are on the very early side.
From the robo: 2 observers, then 2 immortals
7:40 Double assimilator at your natural
7:50 Double forge
8:40 Twilight council
9:00 Add 3 gates
11:25 Robo bay
Take a 3rd
Add 2 gates
Templar archives
Early-Mid Game: Reacting to your Initial Observer Scout:
As your first observer comes out of your robotics, time 2 forges so that they will finish slightly after your observer gets to his base. This way, you have the option to cancel the forges if you scout certain things. The following is a list of things you should cancel the forge versus:
- Marine Tank Banshee play: In case of a probable push, you will not be able to hold with this build
- Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech.
- Some type of super allin: Obviously if he pulls all his scvs and tries to allin you, you don’t want upgrades.
From this point, I’m going to assume that you’re playing versus some sort of bio build. The key theme of the rest of the mid-game is judging how aggressive your opponent is going to be in the next minute and making decisions based on your judgement calls. As you first learn this build, I guarantee you that you will lose a ton of games solely because either you were too greedy and lost in the next minute or weren’t greedy enough and lost 2-3 minutes later.
First, the timing of your gas and your initial unit choice will depend on how aggressive your Terran opponent is being. If he’s being very passive with 2+ bunkers, get faster gas and get your sentries up first. On the other hand, if he’s moving out with a bunch of marine/marauder, perhaps for an extremely early stim timing, stick on more zealot/stalker while delay gases.
Once your first observer finally gets into his base, you will be able to see his infrastructure. The whole theme of the rest of the build is to react to react to scouting, cutting units and getting the appropriate response JUST in time to deal with the next incoming threat.
Standard Terrans will have 3 rax with addons. Look for anything out of the ordinary, such as a ghost academy, double eng bay, extra rax, a fast factory, or a 3rd cc. The existence of any one of these things should prompt different reactions:
- Fast factory: This is the most standard Terran build. Cut units to get as fast a twilight and additional 3 gates as possible, before you even start any immortals. Your opponent is rushing for medivacs, so he will not be attacking you soon until he gets medivacs. Your goal should be 1-1 done, blink almost done, 6 gateways up, and 4-6 stalkers by the time he can pressure you with his first 2 medivacs, usually at around 10-11 minutes.
- Ghost academy: Be ready for a ghost push. In addition to your normal reactions vs ghosts such as keeping your macro up and spreading your sentries, you will need a cannon. Normally you can hold such a push with either a colossi, charge, or lots of gateways. However, with the CreatorPrime style, you will have only 3 gateways and no tech finished, so the cannon is required.
- Extra rax: Get ready for a dedicated stim push. Depending on the timing of the push, you will need either 1 or 2 cannons. Again, you might have 1-1 finished, but without cannons, 4-5 rax of bio will still totally roll you over.
- 3rd CC: No pressure will be coming to you for a while. In addition, his factory will be late. You can take your 3rd early and really cut a lot of units while getting your important tech buildings up. However, be prepared for extremely strong bio pushes later in the game when his economy kicks in. Get colossi fast according and while cutting units earlier, since he cannot push with such an early CC.
- Double eng bay: Double eng bay will always be in addition to one of the other options terran has. If you scout double eng bay with your first observer, then that means his other tech choice will be slowed down. Thus, you can play more greedy accordingly.
General Midgame Notes:
Sentry count: Creator/Genius always sticks to 4 sentries, never more, never less. Although some PvT macro builds rely on up to 6 sentries, this shouldn’t be one of them. Forcefields should only be used to deny kiting and not to make donuts, so you don’t need that many of them. In addition, this build already has very few units in the early-mid game so you want as much of that army as possible doing actual damage.
Robo usage: Creator/Genius will always make 2 observers and then 2 immortals. Do not go over 2 immortals with this build. I have tried to incorporate 3 immortals previous in this build and to do that, you will have to cut something, either fewer zealots, fewer stalkers, or later gateways. For example, one time I made 3 immortals and thus only had 3 stalkers instead of the usual 6 to deny drops. After much testing myself, I’ve determined 2 to be the perfect number of immortals and creator apparently agrees. After your 2nd immortal and before your first colossi, you will have some free robo time. Feel free to get a 3rd observer if you deem it worth it.
Blink first versus charge first: Charge is a great ability for combat, but with sufficient macro, micro, unit composition, and your upgrades, you will be able to hold off any pushes that can occur until colossi can hit. Blink, on the other hand, is required to deal with drops, because your unit count will be very low. However, if there is no chance for medivacs to come into play anytime soon, charge before blink can be considered.
Terran upgrade timings: It’s very important to keep track of the Terran’s upgrades. This can be done by scouting his engineering timing and checking his units as much as possible. Do your best to not engage when you’re even in upgrades, and try to pick fights when you’re 3 or 4 upgrades ahead.
Colossi timing: There comes a point in basically all PvT’s where no matter how great your upgrades are, you will not beat an equal supply Terran army without AoE. The point comes around 130 supply. Thus it’s very important that you don’t overcommit to gateway/immortal and get your first colossi out at an appropriate time.
Third timing: You will not want to expand to a third until you’ve scouted your opponent has taken a third unless you’re way ahead. You will need every unit you can get to hold pushes and you can’t really afford to spread too thin versus drop play. Don’t be afraid of the Terran getting a economical advantage, because as long as you start your 3rd nexus within a minute after he does, you should be fine as your upgrades can carry you through late game.
Mid-Late Game:
Colossi count: In most of the games featured, Creator switches back to immortals after about 3 colossi. This is to prevent over countering of colossi. If you make too many colossi and your opponent makes enough vikings to counter, you will lose to a properly spread terran army even if he is 2 upgrades behind. On the other hand, immortals in small numbers are very effective against a Terran who switches into marurder heavy to counter colossi.
Hide your colossi: If you don’t have to show colossi, don’t. Because you have both templar and colossi routes easily available to you, the Terran has to scout for both options. Force him to spend as many resources as possible to scout for your tech transition. In addition, if you can delay his scouting the colossi, you might be able to force a 2nd starport in order for him to catch up.
3-3 Attack/armor before shield upgrades: Some people will argue to get +1 shields before +3 armor. Yes, this increases the time your forges can be used, but it is the wrong choice. With 3-3 just completes, you open a very strong timing, which coincidentally lines up around when you’re nearing max. IIn addition, shield upgrades are much less useful in the face of EMPs.
Archons versus Templar: Generally, you want to choose archons instead of templar in your unit composition. There are 2 main problems with templar in this unit composition. First is that your biggest advantage, upgrades, don’t affect templar. Getting templar would be like throwing away part of this advantage. If your opponent somehow gets really good EMPs off, your templar will be useless, while emps on just a few archons in your first late game max are not so devastating. Also, even though armor upgrades don’t really affect archons, your zealots will be doing most of the tanking and just a few archons with 3-3 upgrades are a good source of consistent splash damage.
The second problem is timing. With this build, a large chunk of your gas will be going into upgrades and colossi. By the time you can start storm, you will already be 160-170 supply. By the time storm finishes, you will be maxed with just 4-6 templar. Instead, you could have been maxed a bit earlier with 3-3 archons, which against a inferior upgraded army, is not worse than templar.
For situations where you want to choose templar, see the late game section.
Delay your fights: I recommend waiting for 3-3, getting close to max, before engaging unless you’re confident you can win a fight. The bigger the armies, the more one sided fights are when one side has upgrades. For example, 10 zealots with 1-1 will beat 10 zealots with 0-0 much harder than 1 zealot with 1-1 will beat 1 zealot with 0-0.
Late Game: Leveraging your Upgrade Advantage
As you get to the late game, you shouldn’t play standard PvT. You should have the upgrade advantage and you should leverage this advantage to force a win. I categorize late game games into 4 categories as follows:
Scenario 1: You have a 4 upgrade advantage or higher
If you get to this point with a max army, you have already won. You should just be able to a-move and kill him with archon as your late game army.
Scenario 2a: You have a solid 2 upgrade advantage and you can force a fight
You should be able to win any fights where the Terran isn’t in exceptionally good position. This is the most common late game scenario and there are many ways to use your upgrade advantage in this scenario. This scenario includes situations where the Terran has a 3rd or 4th in a far off location from his other bases or when there isn't sufficient PF support at one of his bases.
First, you should be confident in your maxed army, confident that it can take on almost anything Terran throws at you. When you hit 3-3-0, your army will be the strongest possible in relation to your opponent’s army, because the upgrade investments will have paid off and you’re only sinking a minimal amount on future shield upgrades. The only real way to lose a fight at this point if you fight in an extremely bad position, such as near a PF or against a huge concave. Take map control with your army and try to pick fights if you can. Go threaten any Terran expansion that does not have a PF. Feel free to take early 4ths and 5ths, because as long as you can deal with drops well, Terran can’t do anything about them. In addition, just your army presence on the map will deter drops, for the Terran will be in fear of a counter attack.
Scenario 2b: You have a solid 2 upgrade advantage but you cannot force a fight
This can occurs when your opponent turtles on 3 base, usually with a PF. You cannot draw your opponent's army out of position while he upgrades to 3-3 on his bio. If this occurs, take a 4th and perhaps a 5th. Also, tech for templar for an even better late game maxed army. Also, cut a few units in order to add mass gates to raise your chances in the inevitable 200/200 battle. Essentially, you will be converting your upgrade advantage into an econ advantage. A good example of this scenario is in LiquidHero vs EGPuma in the vod section.
Scenario 3: Your 3-3-0 upgrades finish close to the Terran's 3-3 upgrades
This should only be achieved by the terran if starts 2 eng bays very early in the game. The first thing I want to note is that if you scouted this, you should be playing more greedy and thus you econ should be better than if you were playing against a normal Terran build. Also, your opponent will not be able to hit any timings against you, which he would have if you had not gone for double upgrades yourself.
I recommend an early templar switch instead of archons. You cannot reliably hit any timings and a 3-3 Terran army will beat a 3-3-0 Protoss army without storm given equal army positioning. From there go into a standard late game macro PvT with both templar and colossi.
Example Vods:
These are the games I extracted the build from and they show the exact same build but versus an eclectic assortment of terran openings. In the spoilers are the timings of the buildings as well as my comments on the games.
CreatorPrime vs TSLClide game 6
Vs non-standard hellion opening into macro bio play
+ Show Spoiler +
7:15 double gas
8:35 double forge
9:00 twilight
11:00 3 gates
11:20 robo bay
11:50 charge
8:35 double forge
9:00 twilight
11:00 3 gates
11:20 robo bay
11:50 charge
- Creator’s buildings are all delayed a lot, because Clide opened reactor hellions and Creator didn’t initiate his build until he had confirmed a bio focused style.
- Creator’s twilight is early in relation to his forges. This is because he wants blink asap vs drop play.
Important to note that Clide’s initial bio force is weak compared to his medivac timing. This is due to Clide’s opening which was a later CC but faster factory/starport. - The first big fight is a huge mistake for Creator. He misjudges his upgrades and attacks right before his 3-3 kicks in effectively fighting with 2-2 for the marjoity of the battle. In addition, Clide’s 2nd weapon upgrade also finishes in the middle of the battle. Also, the position for Clide was perfect, so Creator should have attacked from a different angle. Finally, Clide’s army was better than a normal max with a lot of ghosts.
- The 2nd battle at Creator’s expansion shows upgrades in action, where he is able to crush a 2-1 army supported by mass medivacs with 3-3 gateway units.
- Creator is able to take an earlier 4th because of how pressured Clide felt.
CreatorPrime vs TSLHeart game 7
Vs standard macro play with a initial disadvantage
+ Show Spoiler +
7:45 2 gas
8:20 double forge
9:40 twilight
It gets messy from here because of early game engagements
8:20 double forge
9:40 twilight
It gets messy from here because of early game engagements
- Really bad first engagement for Creator obviously.
- Notice that Creator favored attack over armor when he couldn’t afford both upgrades.
- 2nd engagement goes really well for creator despite a supply deficit and tech deficit purely because of upgrades.
- Creator goes up to 4 colossi this time instead of his normal 3, possibly because of of Heart’s marine heavy composition.
- Creator wins the 4th engagement even though Terran is 3-3 as well because of Heart’s lack of vikings and that he didn’t have his whole army with him.
- Creator doesn’t go storm this game, because it’s a very tempo focused pressure game. Getting storm would create a gap in this pressure on the Terran.
- Constant switching between immortals and colossi forces Heart to guess how many vikings he needs to make.
CreatorPrime vs TSLaLive game 9
Vs standard ghost push
+ Show Spoiler +
7:35 double forge
8:00 double gas
10:00 twilight
11:10 3 gates
11:25 robo bay
8:00 double gas
10:00 twilight
11:10 3 gates
11:25 robo bay
- This game is a great example of this build vs ghost push. Alive goes for the very common ghost push this game and in response, Creator keep his macro up on 3 gates, makes a cannon, and spread out his sentries.
- Notice Creator’s twilight is late this game, as he doesn’t want blink too fast vs late medivacs and just wants to line up the twilight with his 2-2 upgrades.
- It’s very important that Creator threw up his extra gateways and robo bay as fast as he did, as if he didn’t he would have a very hard time defending a potential incoming bio heavy medivac light push that might come around 14:00. Also notice the very zealot heavy stalker light composition, as Creator is most afraid of a frontal push and not a drop in this situation.
- Notice how ahead Creator is at 14:00 after holding of the aggression of aLive. He’s 4 upgrades up on aLive with all the tech he could want.
- Creator goes up to 5 colossi against the very marine heavy composition of aLive. aLive is actually forced to go so marine heavy, because he invested so much gas into ghosts and 2 starports pumping vikings.
MVPGenius vs NSHeoSoSculp game 5
Vs standard macro play
+ Show Spoiler +
7:40, 8:20 gas
7:50 double forge
8:40 twilight
9:30 3 gates
11:25 robo bay
14:00 templar archives
7:50 double forge
8:40 twilight
9:30 3 gates
11:25 robo bay
14:00 templar archives
- This is probably the best example of the opening build order versus standard fast medivacs.
- Genius uses his fast upgrades and supply lead to take a gold versus a faster 3rd CC.
- Catching that huge drop is pretty much game over for Sculp.
MVPGenius vs NSHeoSoJJakji game 6
Vs super no harass macro play with low upgrades
+ Show Spoiler +
7:00 double gas
7:35 double forge
8:40 3 gates
8:50 twilight
9:40 robo bay
15:30 templar archives
7:35 double forge
8:40 3 gates
8:50 twilight
9:40 robo bay
15:30 templar archives
- Another good standard macro game on a big map versus a very passive Terran.
- Because of JJakji’s lack of pressure, Genius can get his Nexus earlier than normal.
- This game shows what happens when you fight a straight up maxed fight versus a Terran who’s 3 upgrades behind.
LiquidHero vs EGPuma Game 7 Dreamhack finals
Vs ghost push into standard macro play
+ Show Spoiler +
6:55, 9:15 gas
7:20 double forge
9:30 twilight
11:05 3 gates
12:55 robo bay
7:20 double forge
9:30 twilight
11:05 3 gates
12:55 robo bay
- Note that this is this is the final game of a huge tournament, so Hero must have good confidence in this build.
- Hero staggers his 3rd and 4th gas a lot, which might be a bit of a refinement to the build.
- As hero scouts the ghost academy, he immediately puts a pylon at his choke and then a cannons.
- Also accordingly he pumps immortals, doesn't cut units, and delays his twilight to the latest possible to line up with his forge upgrades. He also delays his extra gates.
- Hero gets a faster third than I recommend in my guide and it gets killed, because he can't sufficiently defend it.
- I also disagree with Hero's robo bay timing here. Versus ghosts, if you have that cannon at your ramp and a good concave and choke, you should be free to tech quite fast to colossi.
- I think Puma makes a big mistake attacking up Hero's ramp. Without a good choke and the ability to warp in zealots on top of the bio, Hero could not have won the fight. Thus, he should have instead contained Hero a bit and relied on his economic advantage.
- Hero goes for HT instead of archons, which I think is an excellent choice. The key is that Hero would not be able to bully Puma around with 3-3 archon. Hero's only 2 paths of attack where through the third or through the space between the natural and third. Both these paths can be defended easily at the same time and even with Hero's superior upgrades, it would be risky to try to attack through there. Thus, Hero uses his superior upgrade advantage to gain more bases and safely tech to high templar. Accordingly, he also cuts some units to get up to 12 gateways, which all finish perfectly at around 190 supply.
Creator vs ? KSL
Creator vs Bomber KSL-Loss
Loses due to being out econed after doing an inferior opening to his opponent and not scouting his opponent's hidden third.
Brown vs Alive GSL
Adds in a Warp Prism for a little twist
Squirtle vs Jjakji IPL Qual on Sanhorn Mist-Loss
Squirtle just gets his entire army caught out of position and loses immediately.
Creator vs Gumiho KSL
Vs marine/hellion/medivac pressure into standard bio play
Creator vs Jjakji KSL Game 8
Off of 15 nexus, vs 1 rax cc into 3rd cc
Creator vs BeastyQt IPTL Game 4 on Talderim Altar
Creator starts with lead in early game
Creator vs Kas IPTL Game 7 on Shakruas Plateau
Creator responses to scouting a early hidden CC, turns into very long macro game.
Creator vs Happy IPTL Game 8 on Terminus Se-Loss
Creator does a very slight variation on his build, switching the +1 armor and blink.
Versus 2 ghost push.
Goes into very long macro game.
Alicia vs asd GSL Game 2 on Metropolis
Long macro game.
asd tries a mass bc transition.
MacSed vs Keen GSL Game 2 on Antiga Shipyard
Does a slight variation of the build and holds ghost push with no cannon but 3 immortals/earlier gates.
Goes into long macro game and loses.
Vines vs Thorzain IPTL Game 5 on Shattered Temple
Vs standard play
Creator vs Nada GSL Game 1 Entombed Valley-Loss
Vs standard opening
Nada kills Creator's first 2 observers, so he moves his 3rd observer out of position to cover for the first 2. Because of this, he misses a drop, which kills him.
Creator vs Nada GSL Game 2 Antiga Shiipyards
Vs 1 rax into 2 CC into double eng bay
This is the absolute best blind counter Nada could have done to the build.
Nada is good with picking off observers again; this game demonstrates again how important observers are to defending drops with a relatively low number of units.
Creator wins because he hits a semi all-in 3-3 timing that hit 15 seconds before 3-3 finished from Nada.
Puzzle vs ForGG GSTL Game 8 Entombed Valley
Vs Medivac/ghost timing
Gets into a really bad position during a fight midgame but wins the fight because of superior upgrades
Goes into long macro game
Creator vs Boxer
Sage vs Yoda
Sage
Genius vs Supernova GSL
Squirtle vs MKP IPL Game 2 on Sanghorn Mist
Seed vs Gumiho Game 3 on Cloud Kingdom from WCS Korea
Visual guide:
+ Show Spoiler +
Thanks to vaderseven, Note: It's not 100% in accordance with my guide right now
![[image loading]](http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9629/monkscreaterprimepvtsty.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/monkscreaterprimepvtsty.jpg/)
IMseed has an awesome way to open vs terran that stops 1/1/1 cold as long as you play it right. Can't let it fall into Terran hands though or they might find a way to beat it lol >< 
