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United States8476 Posts
Note: A lot of people have been having problems with the double reactor 10 minute medivac push. Here are my thoughts on the issue. If you choose to use these new timings, ignore the timings listed in this thread.
NrGmonk wrote:For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
Ever since HongunPrime displayed his double forge PvT style in one of the first GSLs, various Protosses have been trying to make early double forge work. Ever since then, there have been many innovations to make the style more solid. In the semifinals of the first season of GSTL, CreatorPrime and MVPGenius both showcased such a build that introduced cannons, immortals, and blink stalkers to allay the classic weaknesses of the double forge build. Combined they went 5-0 with the build at the highest level of competition. Since then, double forge PvT has been the standard in Korea and in fact this is the only macro PvT build that has been used consistently on high levels by a variety of players. Anyone can blindly follow a build order but in this guide, in addition to the actual build order, I will be adding my own reactions to scouting information that you may find.
Early Game: Precursor to the Build:
This guide assumes that you’ve done some type of expansion and have the infrastructure of 3 gates and a robo. Your opponent must have also done some type of expansion as well, either 1 rax no gas, 1 rax tech lab expand, or 2 rax expand. This guide will not cover this early game beyond this.
General Outline of the Build:
The following is a very general outline of the build based on timing and not supply. Do not follow these timings exactly in every game as they HEAVILY depend on reactions to what you scout and both your and your opponents’ exact openings. If anything, these timings are on the very early side.
From the robo: 2 observers, then 2 immortals
7:40 Double assimilator at your natural
7:50 Double forge
8:40 Twilight council
9:00 Add 3 gates
11:25 Robo bay
Take a 3rd
Add 2 gates
Templar archives
Early-Mid Game: Reacting to your Initial Observer Scout:
As your first observer comes out of your robotics, time 2 forges so that they will finish slightly after your observer gets to his base. This way, you have the option to cancel the forges if you scout certain things. The following is a list of things you should cancel the forge versus:
- Marine Tank Banshee play: In case of a probable push, you will not be able to hold with this build
- Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech.
- Some type of super allin: Obviously if he pulls all his scvs and tries to allin you, you don’t want upgrades.
From this point, I’m going to assume that you’re playing versus some sort of bio build. The key theme of the rest of the mid-game is judging how aggressive your opponent is going to be in the next minute and making decisions based on your judgement calls. As you first learn this build, I guarantee you that you will lose a ton of games solely because either you were too greedy and lost in the next minute or weren’t greedy enough and lost 2-3 minutes later.
First, the timing of your gas and your initial unit choice will depend on how aggressive your Terran opponent is being. If he’s being very passive with 2+ bunkers, get faster gas and get your sentries up first. On the other hand, if he’s moving out with a bunch of marine/marauder, perhaps for an extremely early stim timing, stick on more zealot/stalker while delay gases.
Once your first observer finally gets into his base, you will be able to see his infrastructure. The whole theme of the rest of the build is to react to react to scouting, cutting units and getting the appropriate response JUST in time to deal with the next incoming threat.
Standard Terrans will have 3 rax with addons. Look for anything out of the ordinary, such as a ghost academy, double eng bay, extra rax, a fast factory, or a 3rd cc. The existence of any one of these things should prompt different reactions:
- Fast factory: This is the most standard Terran build. Cut units to get as fast a twilight and additional 3 gates as possible, before you even start any immortals. Your opponent is rushing for medivacs, so he will not be attacking you soon until he gets medivacs. Your goal should be 1-1 done, blink almost done, 6 gateways up, and 4-6 stalkers by the time he can pressure you with his first 2 medivacs, usually at around 10-11 minutes.
- Ghost academy: Be ready for a ghost push. In addition to your normal reactions vs ghosts such as keeping your macro up and spreading your sentries, you will need a cannon. Normally you can hold such a push with either a colossi, charge, or lots of gateways. However, with the CreatorPrime style, you will have only 3 gateways and no tech finished, so the cannon is required.
- Extra rax: Get ready for a dedicated stim push. Depending on the timing of the push, you will need either 1 or 2 cannons. Again, you might have 1-1 finished, but without cannons, 4-5 rax of bio will still totally roll you over.
- 3rd CC: No pressure will be coming to you for a while. In addition, his factory will be late. You can take your 3rd early and really cut a lot of units while getting your important tech buildings up. However, be prepared for extremely strong bio pushes later in the game when his economy kicks in. Get colossi fast according and while cutting units earlier, since he cannot push with such an early CC.
- Double eng bay: Double eng bay will always be in addition to one of the other options terran has. If you scout double eng bay with your first observer, then that means his other tech choice will be slowed down. Thus, you can play more greedy accordingly.
General Midgame Notes:
Sentry count: Creator/Genius always sticks to 4 sentries, never more, never less. Although some PvT macro builds rely on up to 6 sentries, this shouldn’t be one of them. Forcefields should only be used to deny kiting and not to make donuts, so you don’t need that many of them. In addition, this build already has very few units in the early-mid game so you want as much of that army as possible doing actual damage.
Robo usage: Creator/Genius will always make 2 observers and then 2 immortals. Do not go over 2 immortals with this build. I have tried to incorporate 3 immortals previous in this build and to do that, you will have to cut something, either fewer zealots, fewer stalkers, or later gateways. For example, one time I made 3 immortals and thus only had 3 stalkers instead of the usual 6 to deny drops. After much testing myself, I’ve determined 2 to be the perfect number of immortals and creator apparently agrees. After your 2nd immortal and before your first colossi, you will have some free robo time. Feel free to get a 3rd observer if you deem it worth it.
Blink first versus charge first: Charge is a great ability for combat, but with sufficient macro, micro, unit composition, and your upgrades, you will be able to hold off any pushes that can occur until colossi can hit. Blink, on the other hand, is required to deal with drops, because your unit count will be very low. However, if there is no chance for medivacs to come into play anytime soon, charge before blink can be considered.
Terran upgrade timings: It’s very important to keep track of the Terran’s upgrades. This can be done by scouting his engineering timing and checking his units as much as possible. Do your best to not engage when you’re even in upgrades, and try to pick fights when you’re 3 or 4 upgrades ahead.
Colossi timing: There comes a point in basically all PvT’s where no matter how great your upgrades are, you will not beat an equal supply Terran army without AoE. The point comes around 130 supply. Thus it’s very important that you don’t overcommit to gateway/immortal and get your first colossi out at an appropriate time.
Third timing: You will not want to expand to a third until you’ve scouted your opponent has taken a third unless you’re way ahead. You will need every unit you can get to hold pushes and you can’t really afford to spread too thin versus drop play. Don’t be afraid of the Terran getting a economical advantage, because as long as you start your 3rd nexus within a minute after he does, you should be fine as your upgrades can carry you through late game.
Mid-Late Game:
Colossi count: In most of the games featured, Creator switches back to immortals after about 3 colossi. This is to prevent over countering of colossi. If you make too many colossi and your opponent makes enough vikings to counter, you will lose to a properly spread terran army even if he is 2 upgrades behind. On the other hand, immortals in small numbers are very effective against a Terran who switches into marurder heavy to counter colossi.
Hide your colossi: If you don’t have to show colossi, don’t. Because you have both templar and colossi routes easily available to you, the Terran has to scout for both options. Force him to spend as many resources as possible to scout for your tech transition. In addition, if you can delay his scouting the colossi, you might be able to force a 2nd starport in order for him to catch up.
3-3 Attack/armor before shield upgrades: Some people will argue to get +1 shields before +3 armor. Yes, this increases the time your forges can be used, but it is the wrong choice. With 3-3 just completes, you open a very strong timing, which coincidentally lines up around when you’re nearing max. IIn addition, shield upgrades are much less useful in the face of EMPs.
Archons versus Templar: Generally, you want to choose archons instead of templar in your unit composition. There are 2 main problems with templar in this unit composition. First is that your biggest advantage, upgrades, don’t affect templar. Getting templar would be like throwing away part of this advantage. If your opponent somehow gets really good EMPs off, your templar will be useless, while emps on just a few archons in your first late game max are not so devastating. Also, even though armor upgrades don’t really affect archons, your zealots will be doing most of the tanking and just a few archons with 3-3 upgrades are a good source of consistent splash damage.
The second problem is timing. With this build, a large chunk of your gas will be going into upgrades and colossi. By the time you can start storm, you will already be 160-170 supply. By the time storm finishes, you will be maxed with just 4-6 templar. Instead, you could have been maxed a bit earlier with 3-3 archons, which against a inferior upgraded army, is not worse than templar.
For situations where you want to choose templar, see the late game section.
Delay your fights: I recommend waiting for 3-3, getting close to max, before engaging unless you’re confident you can win a fight. The bigger the armies, the more one sided fights are when one side has upgrades. For example, 10 zealots with 1-1 will beat 10 zealots with 0-0 much harder than 1 zealot with 1-1 will beat 1 zealot with 0-0.
Late Game: Leveraging your Upgrade Advantage
As you get to the late game, you shouldn’t play standard PvT. You should have the upgrade advantage and you should leverage this advantage to force a win. I categorize late game games into 4 categories as follows:
Scenario 1: You have a 4 upgrade advantage or higher
If you get to this point with a max army, you have already won. You should just be able to a-move and kill him with archon as your late game army.
Scenario 2a: You have a solid 2 upgrade advantage and you can force a fight
You should be able to win any fights where the Terran isn’t in exceptionally good position. This is the most common late game scenario and there are many ways to use your upgrade advantage in this scenario. This scenario includes situations where the Terran has a 3rd or 4th in a far off location from his other bases or when there isn't sufficient PF support at one of his bases.
First, you should be confident in your maxed army, confident that it can take on almost anything Terran throws at you. When you hit 3-3-0, your army will be the strongest possible in relation to your opponent’s army, because the upgrade investments will have paid off and you’re only sinking a minimal amount on future shield upgrades. The only real way to lose a fight at this point if you fight in an extremely bad position, such as near a PF or against a huge concave. Take map control with your army and try to pick fights if you can. Go threaten any Terran expansion that does not have a PF. Feel free to take early 4ths and 5ths, because as long as you can deal with drops well, Terran can’t do anything about them. In addition, just your army presence on the map will deter drops, for the Terran will be in fear of a counter attack.
Scenario 2b: You have a solid 2 upgrade advantage but you cannot force a fight
This can occurs when your opponent turtles on 3 base, usually with a PF. You cannot draw your opponent's army out of position while he upgrades to 3-3 on his bio. If this occurs, take a 4th and perhaps a 5th. Also, tech for templar for an even better late game maxed army. Also, cut a few units in order to add mass gates to raise your chances in the inevitable 200/200 battle. Essentially, you will be converting your upgrade advantage into an econ advantage. A good example of this scenario is in LiquidHero vs EGPuma in the vod section.
Scenario 3: Your 3-3-0 upgrades finish close to the Terran's 3-3 upgrades
This should only be achieved by the terran if starts 2 eng bays very early in the game. The first thing I want to note is that if you scouted this, you should be playing more greedy and thus you econ should be better than if you were playing against a normal Terran build. Also, your opponent will not be able to hit any timings against you, which he would have if you had not gone for double upgrades yourself.
I recommend an early templar switch instead of archons. You cannot reliably hit any timings and a 3-3 Terran army will beat a 3-3-0 Protoss army without storm given equal army positioning. From there go into a standard late game macro PvT with both templar and colossi.
Example Vods:
These are the games I extracted the build from and they show the exact same build but versus an eclectic assortment of terran openings. In the spoilers are the timings of the buildings as well as my comments on the games.
CreatorPrime vs TSLClide game 6
Vs non-standard hellion opening into macro bio play
+ Show Spoiler +7:15 double gas 8:35 double forge 9:00 twilight 11:00 3 gates 11:20 robo bay 11:50 charge - Creator’s buildings are all delayed a lot, because Clide opened reactor hellions and Creator didn’t initiate his build until he had confirmed a bio focused style.
- Creator’s twilight is early in relation to his forges. This is because he wants blink asap vs drop play.
Important to note that Clide’s initial bio force is weak compared to his medivac timing. This is due to Clide’s opening which was a later CC but faster factory/starport.
- The first big fight is a huge mistake for Creator. He misjudges his upgrades and attacks right before his 3-3 kicks in effectively fighting with 2-2 for the marjoity of the battle. In addition, Clide’s 2nd weapon upgrade also finishes in the middle of the battle. Also, the position for Clide was perfect, so Creator should have attacked from a different angle. Finally, Clide’s army was better than a normal max with a lot of ghosts.
- The 2nd battle at Creator’s expansion shows upgrades in action, where he is able to crush a 2-1 army supported by mass medivacs with 3-3 gateway units.
- Creator is able to take an earlier 4th because of how pressured Clide felt.
CreatorPrime vs TSLHeart game 7
Vs standard macro play with a initial disadvantage
+ Show Spoiler +7:45 2 gas 8:20 double forge 9:40 twilight It gets messy from here because of early game engagements - Really bad first engagement for Creator obviously.
- Notice that Creator favored attack over armor when he couldn’t afford both upgrades.
- 2nd engagement goes really well for creator despite a supply deficit and tech deficit purely because of upgrades.
- Creator goes up to 4 colossi this time instead of his normal 3, possibly because of of Heart’s marine heavy composition.
- Creator wins the 4th engagement even though Terran is 3-3 as well because of Heart’s lack of vikings and that he didn’t have his whole army with him.
- Creator doesn’t go storm this game, because it’s a very tempo focused pressure game. Getting storm would create a gap in this pressure on the Terran.
- Constant switching between immortals and colossi forces Heart to guess how many vikings he needs to make.
CreatorPrime vs TSLaLive game 9
Vs standard ghost push
+ Show Spoiler +7:35 double forge 8:00 double gas 10:00 twilight 11:10 3 gates 11:25 robo bay - This game is a great example of this build vs ghost push. Alive goes for the very common ghost push this game and in response, Creator keep his macro up on 3 gates, makes a cannon, and spread out his sentries.
- Notice Creator’s twilight is late this game, as he doesn’t want blink too fast vs late medivacs and just wants to line up the twilight with his 2-2 upgrades.
- It’s very important that Creator threw up his extra gateways and robo bay as fast as he did, as if he didn’t he would have a very hard time defending a potential incoming bio heavy medivac light push that might come around 14:00. Also notice the very zealot heavy stalker light composition, as Creator is most afraid of a frontal push and not a drop in this situation.
- Notice how ahead Creator is at 14:00 after holding of the aggression of aLive. He’s 4 upgrades up on aLive with all the tech he could want.
- Creator goes up to 5 colossi against the very marine heavy composition of aLive. aLive is actually forced to go so marine heavy, because he invested so much gas into ghosts and 2 starports pumping vikings.
MVPGenius vs NSHeoSoSculp game 5
Vs standard macro play
+ Show Spoiler +7:40, 8:20 gas 7:50 double forge 8:40 twilight 9:30 3 gates 11:25 robo bay 14:00 templar archives - This is probably the best example of the opening build order versus standard fast medivacs.
- Genius uses his fast upgrades and supply lead to take a gold versus a faster 3rd CC.
- Catching that huge drop is pretty much game over for Sculp.
MVPGenius vs NSHeoSoJJakji game 6
Vs super no harass macro play with low upgrades
+ Show Spoiler +7:00 double gas 7:35 double forge 8:40 3 gates 8:50 twilight 9:40 robo bay 15:30 templar archives - Another good standard macro game on a big map versus a very passive Terran.
- Because of JJakji’s lack of pressure, Genius can get his Nexus earlier than normal.
- This game shows what happens when you fight a straight up maxed fight versus a Terran who’s 3 upgrades behind.
LiquidHero vs EGPuma Game 7 Dreamhack finals
Vs ghost push into standard macro play
+ Show Spoiler +6:55, 9:15 gas 7:20 double forge 9:30 twilight 11:05 3 gates 12:55 robo bay - Note that this is this is the final game of a huge tournament, so Hero must have good confidence in this build.
- Hero staggers his 3rd and 4th gas a lot, which might be a bit of a refinement to the build.
- As hero scouts the ghost academy, he immediately puts a pylon at his choke and then a cannons.
- Also accordingly he pumps immortals, doesn't cut units, and delays his twilight to the latest possible to line up with his forge upgrades. He also delays his extra gates.
- Hero gets a faster third than I recommend in my guide and it gets killed, because he can't sufficiently defend it.
- I also disagree with Hero's robo bay timing here. Versus ghosts, if you have that cannon at your ramp and a good concave and choke, you should be free to tech quite fast to colossi.
- I think Puma makes a big mistake attacking up Hero's ramp. Without a good choke and the ability to warp in zealots on top of the bio, Hero could not have won the fight. Thus, he should have instead contained Hero a bit and relied on his economic advantage.
- Hero goes for HT instead of archons, which I think is an excellent choice. The key is that Hero would not be able to bully Puma around with 3-3 archon. Hero's only 2 paths of attack where through the third or through the space between the natural and third. Both these paths can be defended easily at the same time and even with Hero's superior upgrades, it would be risky to try to attack through there. Thus, Hero uses his superior upgrade advantage to gain more bases and safely tech to high templar. Accordingly, he also cuts some units to get up to 12 gateways, which all finish perfectly at around 190 supply.
Creator vs ? KSL
Creator vs Bomber KSL-Loss
Loses due to being out econed after doing an inferior opening to his opponent and not scouting his opponent's hidden third.
Brown vs Alive GSL
Adds in a Warp Prism for a little twist
Squirtle vs Jjakji IPL Qual on Sanhorn Mist-Loss
Squirtle just gets his entire army caught out of position and loses immediately.
Creator vs Gumiho KSL
Vs marine/hellion/medivac pressure into standard bio play
Creator vs Jjakji KSL Game 8
Off of 15 nexus, vs 1 rax cc into 3rd cc
Creator vs BeastyQt IPTL Game 4 on Talderim Altar
Creator starts with lead in early game
Creator vs Kas IPTL Game 7 on Shakruas Plateau
Creator responses to scouting a early hidden CC, turns into very long macro game.
Creator vs Happy IPTL Game 8 on Terminus Se-Loss
Creator does a very slight variation on his build, switching the +1 armor and blink.
Versus 2 ghost push.
Goes into very long macro game.
Alicia vs asd GSL Game 2 on Metropolis
Long macro game.
asd tries a mass bc transition.
MacSed vs Keen GSL Game 2 on Antiga Shipyard
Does a slight variation of the build and holds ghost push with no cannon but 3 immortals/earlier gates.
Goes into long macro game and loses.
Vines vs Thorzain IPTL Game 5 on Shattered Temple
Vs standard play
Creator vs Nada GSL Game 1 Entombed Valley-Loss
Vs standard opening
Nada kills Creator's first 2 observers, so he moves his 3rd observer out of position to cover for the first 2. Because of this, he misses a drop, which kills him.
Creator vs Nada GSL Game 2 Antiga Shiipyards
Vs 1 rax into 2 CC into double eng bay
This is the absolute best blind counter Nada could have done to the build.
Nada is good with picking off observers again; this game demonstrates again how important observers are to defending drops with a relatively low number of units.
Creator wins because he hits a semi all-in 3-3 timing that hit 15 seconds before 3-3 finished from Nada.
Puzzle vs ForGG GSTL Game 8 Entombed Valley
Vs Medivac/ghost timing
Gets into a really bad position during a fight midgame but wins the fight because of superior upgrades
Goes into long macro game
Creator vs Boxer
Sage vs Yoda
Sage
Genius vs Supernova GSL
Squirtle vs MKP IPL Game 2 on Sanghorn Mist
Seed vs Gumiho Game 3 on Cloud Kingdom from WCS Korea
Visual guide:
+ Show Spoiler +Thanks to vaderseven, Note: It's not 100% in accordance with my guide right now ![[image loading]](http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9629/monkscreaterprimepvtsty.jpg)
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Awesome, I dont have time to read this in depth, but I do double forge a lot in PvT, it'll be good to compare my timings against these and see how they pair up, I just notice right off the bat i get faster forges so i'm curious as to the differences in timings.
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YES I was waiting for this!!! Thanks Monk, you do a really good job of explaining things!
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Well if we're going to share korean builds, Artosis has this site http://scdojo.tumblr.com/ that he made. Full of good stuff that's sure to make some interesting games. The build order written there is more specific than this guide here for those that can't function without seeing numbers. Mr. NrGmonk is much more detailed in explanations though so you should probably use his guide. Very good guide ^^
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 04:44 BoondockVeritas wrote:Well if we're going to share korean builds, Artosis has this site http://scdojo.tumblr.com/ that he made. Full of good stuff that's sure to make some interesting games. The build order written there is more specific than this guide here for those that can't function without seeing numbers. Mr. NrGmonk is much more detailed in explanations though so you should probably use his guide. Very good guide ^^
Problem is this build is very reactionary, definitely not as set in stone as Artosis made it out to be. I also have my own private notebook of korean builds =P.
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ive been using my own rough sketch of this build since those GSL matches aired. Nice to see someone finally write a detailed guide for it
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Italy12246 Posts
First you bring my pvp to master's level, then my pvt :O I love you man, your guides are soooo good. The part about midgame scouting is especially awesome, i always fly an obs over and go "ok...he's...going bio i guess...cool".
On to double forge builds in general,i have a couple questions:
1) Lots of korean protoss players (especially Oz off the top of my head) go templar first off double forge anyway, often with a faster third. What do you think are the pros and cons of going templar vs colossus? I personally can't for the life of me figure out why the would prefer templar...
2) Months ago when double forge first started getting popular i remember seeing Tyler doing a 38-probe 6gate, but with double forge and 1-1 upgrades. How does this compare to a normal 6gate? Normally you try to hit right before medivacs come out, but i feel like if you wait until 1-1 you are a little too slow, so what is that timing trying to achive?
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 05:19 Teoita wrote:
First you bring my pvp to master's level, then my pvt :O I love you man, your guides are soooo good. The part about midgame scouting is especially awesome, i always fly an obs over and go "ok...he's...going bio i guess...cool".
On to double forge builds in general,i have a couple questions:
1) Lots of korean protoss players (especially Oz off the top of my head) go templar first off double forge anyway, often with a faster third. What do you think are the pros and cons of going templar vs colossus? I personally can't for the life of me figure out why the would prefer templar...
2) Months ago when double forge first started getting popular i remember seeing Tyler doing a 38-probe 6gate, but with double forge and 1-1 upgrades. How does this compare to a normal 6gate? Normally you try to hit right before medivacs come out, but i feel like if you wait until 1-1 you are a little too slow, so what is that timing trying to achive?
1. It's mostly a style thing. Another part of it is that templar don't require a robo, which many people don't get. Are you sure it's not single forge or later 2 forge into templar? Both of those make more sense.
2. Doesn't really pertain to this guide and I don't have much experience with it. However, it doesn't sound as good as a normal 6 gate or a 2 base immortal bust.
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This. Is. Incredible. I've always watched creator play in awe, and never realized how crucial the robo was to the style, and have always tried to play pure gateway with double forge! Thanks for clearing this issue and hopefully getting my PvT to a passable level!
Btw. The guy's name is hongun prime not hungun prime (unless ur making a joke about how long he hung on to the GSL LOL) At the beginning of your article.
Your stuff is always the best, cheers monk!
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On December 08 2011 04:48 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:44 BoondockVeritas wrote:Well if we're going to share korean builds, Artosis has this site http://scdojo.tumblr.com/ that he made. Full of good stuff that's sure to make some interesting games. The build order written there is more specific than this guide here for those that can't function without seeing numbers. Mr. NrGmonk is much more detailed in explanations though so you should probably use his guide. Very good guide ^^ Problem is this build is very reactionary, definitely not as set in stone as Artosis made it out to be. I also have my own private notebook of korean builds =P.
Likewise. I figured Artosis would plug this again someday so I might as well share it. My private stash of little builds and openings though... no sharing!  IMseed has an awesome way to open vs terran that stops 1/1/1 cold as long as you play it right. Can't let it fall into Terran hands though or they might find a way to beat it lol ><
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You reference taking a 3rd within a minute of Terran expanding. Are you referring to a minute within the time that he lands his CC at his 3rd? Or no later than a minute after he starts his CC? A minor question, but I am always insecure about 3rd timings against Terran.
Your point about archons vs templar and benefitting from upgrades is a good one. I've been using templar lately as I feel they can really swing a battle in my favor, but they are a bit of a gamble. I guess I like the gamble.
Great stuff. I've been using variations of a Hongun double forge build that someone posted awhile back. This is more detailed and it both clarifies and confirms a lot of what I've experienced in using this basic framework (at lowly diamond).
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Nice guide. Some questions you may be able to help me out with:
1) When do you recommend doing the templar switch (outside of the double engi bay scenario you mentioned)? On your 4th base? After you're maxed and phase them in as you trade armies? Once it gets late game you pretty much need both Colossi + Templar to deal with the Terran deathball, but I see your point about the upgrade advantage.
2) I assume you grab the gasses at your 3rd right away?
3) It seems Creator also has a pretty standard time he grabs his fouth (I haven't watch all the games) as well (~17:00)?
4) What is the optimal stalker mix in your max army in your opinion?
It may be worth it to go into slightly more detail about the opening. For example it is very common to get the robo before the 2nd and 3rd gates if you scout no early aggression i.e. gasless FE.
Also another variation I've seen (I think it was Killer) is on huge maps they go DT first instead of colossi, presumably since DTs can keep aggression at bay by constantly forcing scans. What do you think about this variation?
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 08 2011 06:52 Skyro wrote:
Nice guide. Some questions you may be able to help me out with:
2) I assume you grab the gasses at your 3rd right away?
It may be worth it to go into slightly more detail about the opening. For example it is very common to get the robo before the 2nd and 3rd gates if you scout no early aggression i.e. gasless FE.
Also another variation I've seen (I think it was Killer) is on huge maps they go DT first instead of colossi, presumably since DTs can keep aggression at bay by constantly forcing scans. What do you think about this variation?
1) You should always grab the gasses at your extra expansions (from the 3rd on) as fast as possible as protoss, no matter the build or matchup since at that point you are relying on a lot of really gas intensive units.
2) With this build you aren't really rushing for either immortals nor colossi, so the fast robo isn't that useful. It's kind of nice if he is going for a straight up 1-1-1 with no hellion harass before the push, but i personally find 3gate into robo to be safer.
3) I personally think 2base dt is insanely risky, because you invest in them at a time in the game when normally you want to get your aoe ready to take on a high medivac count with bio units and potentially ghosts...+ Show Spoiler +a good example from gsl of this is Oz vs Jjajki on Bel'Shir Beach in their ro4 series; Oz died while trying to take a third because he invested a lot into dt's which did absolutely nothing.
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On December 08 2011 06:52 Skyro wrote:
Also another variation I've seen (I think it was Killer) is on huge maps they go DT first instead of colossi, presumably since DTs can keep aggression at bay by constantly forcing scans. What do you think about this variation?
I'm almost 100% certain it's because of what you said. On big maps 1-1-1 is a bad idea, so no rush to starport, and Protoss FE expand builds are on par with Terran ones making a Raven push take too long and be too weak to do anything. The DT first takes advantage of it, and really does a lot as long as you maintain a presence from at least mid-map. Allows P almost a free 3rd and blink is still an easy option.
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Absolutely outstanding guide. Too few of these early mid - mid - late game guides!
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On December 08 2011 07:02 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:52 Skyro wrote:
Nice guide. Some questions you may be able to help me out with:
2) I assume you grab the gasses at your 3rd right away?
It may be worth it to go into slightly more detail about the opening. For example it is very common to get the robo before the 2nd and 3rd gates if you scout no early aggression i.e. gasless FE.
Also another variation I've seen (I think it was Killer) is on huge maps they go DT first instead of colossi, presumably since DTs can keep aggression at bay by constantly forcing scans. What do you think about this variation? 1) You should always grab the gasses at your extra expansions (from the 3rd on) as fast as possible as protoss, no matter the build or matchup since at that point you are relying on a lot of really gas intensive units. 2) With this build you aren't really rushing for either immortals nor colossi, so the fast robo isn't that useful. It's kind of nice if he is going for a straight up 1-1-1 with no hellion harass before the push, but i personally find 3gate into robo to be safer. 3) I personally think 2base dt is insanely risky, because you invest in them at a time in the game when normally you want to get your aoe ready to take on a high medivac count with bio units and potentially ghosts... + Show Spoiler +a good example from gsl of this is Oz vs Jjajki on Bel'Shir Beach in their ro4 series; Oz died while trying to take a third because he invested a lot into dt's which did absolutely nothing.
The faster robo is for a faster observer. Of course 3-gate into robo is faster, that's why I said you can get the robo first if you scout no early aggression. This is a very common reaction to scouting no aggression, it wasn't a question on the merits of it.
Yeah I watched the Oz/Jjaiki game, but like you said that was on Bel'Shir, and Oz used it offensively rather than Killer who used DTs to play a defensive, macro-oriented playstyle. Also Oz has his own style of PvT. He doesn't really do Creator's build.
I believe I saw Killer use the DT variation on Daybreak and possibly on Calm Before the Storm but like I said my memory is a bit fuzzy. I've personally never tried it as I don't think it is viable on the current ladder map pool, but I thought it was an interesting, map-dependent twist to the build, say if you are playing in any tourneys that uses GSL maps.
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So.. uh. What exactly is terran supposed to do against this?
The seemingly intuitive response (early double engineering bays) doesn't actually seem to help that much. It just slows everything else down for terran allowing protoss to play greedier (just like you said). I'm excited about the build because it just feels like what protoss should be doing when they're looking for a longer game (taking advantage of chronoboost) but I just don't know what I do against it as a terran player. Help? D:
Maybe lots and lots of drops to pull the protoss apart in a manner that the upgrades don't make as large of a difference (small scale engagements) to delay until terran gets his own 3/3? Because just straight up pushes seems like a bad idea against this style.
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Your details on when to get cannons I found to be the most important part of this guide lol. i don't think anyone has detailed the scenarios when you need cannons vs terren before. Very much appreciated as 4-5 rax stim pushes are why I'm losing in the early mid game using this style.
Thanks a Ton dood!
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wow, great post as always monk.
this helps for general pvt as well as double forge. been trying to incorporate double forge, but i've found it very difficult to find the right timing to start the upgrades. this'll really help my my pvt thx!
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On December 08 2011 07:32 tjd2191 wrote:
So.. uh. What exactly is terran supposed to do against this?
The seemingly intuitive response (early double engineering bays) doesn't actually seem to help that much. It just slows everything else down for terran allowing protoss to play greedier (just like you said). I'm excited about the build because it just feels like what protoss should be doing when they're looking for a longer game (taking advantage of chronoboost) but I just don't know what I do against it as a terran player. Help? D:
Maybe lots and lots of drops to pull the protoss apart in a manner that the upgrades don't make as large of a difference (small scale engagements) to delay until terran gets his own 3/3? Because just straight up pushes seems like a bad idea against this style.
There are plenty of timings that terran can exploit against this type of build. But yes, you are correct that drops are the most effective. Take an early third and try to pick the protoss apart and force mistakes. Do not let your medivacs die.
Otherwise ghost timings, or heavy viking bio pushes still work just like against every other build.
The weakest point I found through playing this style is when the protoss has blink but is researching 2/2 and charge.
That's a lot of money dumped into tech that has not yet come into play.
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On December 08 2011 05:26 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 05:19 Teoita wrote:
First you bring my pvp to master's level, then my pvt :O I love you man, your guides are soooo good. The part about midgame scouting is especially awesome, i always fly an obs over and go "ok...he's...going bio i guess...cool".
On to double forge builds in general,i have a couple questions:
1) Lots of korean protoss players (especially Oz off the top of my head) go templar first off double forge anyway, often with a faster third. What do you think are the pros and cons of going templar vs colossus? I personally can't for the life of me figure out why the would prefer templar...
2) Months ago when double forge first started getting popular i remember seeing Tyler doing a 38-probe 6gate, but with double forge and 1-1 upgrades. How does this compare to a normal 6gate? Normally you try to hit right before medivacs come out, but i feel like if you wait until 1-1 you are a little too slow, so what is that timing trying to achive? 1. It's mostly a style thing. Another part of it is that templar don't require a robo, which many people don't get. Are you sure it's not single forge or later 2 forge into templar? Both of those make more sense.
I'm only a Platinum player, but from interviews and such it definitely seems to be a style thing. Korean Protosses seem to feel that Templar tech gives you more opportunity to show off your micro and win that way, whereas Colossus tech doesn't give you as much potential for micro. That's what I got from MC's and Oz's interviews in the past, anyway. I'll see if I can dig them up, but don't expect any wonders!
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Let me guess what the optimal T response is.
2 base marine tank banshee transition into mm + ebays.
The reason is that T needs to get starport level units to pressure immediately, but since it's so expensive, upgrades have to be delayed. This P build directly counters 3rax drop play and overruns with ups after defense. But tank banshee at 11m will force P to cancel ups and even out the timing.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 08 2011 08:12 architecture wrote:
Let me guess what the optimal T response is.
2 base marine tank banshee transition into mm + ebays.
The reason is that T needs to get starport level units to pressure immediately, but since it's so expensive, upgrades have to be delayed. This P build directly counters 3rax drop play and overruns with ups after defense. But tank banshee at 11m will force P to cancel ups and even out the timing.
If you didn't open with some kind of banshee or hellion drop expand, you can't scout the double forges at 7-8 minutes and suddenly start teching up to factories and starports...besides, at 11 minutes 2/2 should be almost done
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 07:55 JonnyLaw wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:32 tjd2191 wrote:
So.. uh. What exactly is terran supposed to do against this?
The seemingly intuitive response (early double engineering bays) doesn't actually seem to help that much. It just slows everything else down for terran allowing protoss to play greedier (just like you said). I'm excited about the build because it just feels like what protoss should be doing when they're looking for a longer game (taking advantage of chronoboost) but I just don't know what I do against it as a terran player. Help? D:
Maybe lots and lots of drops to pull the protoss apart in a manner that the upgrades don't make as large of a difference (small scale engagements) to delay until terran gets his own 3/3? Because just straight up pushes seems like a bad idea against this style. There are plenty of timings that terran can exploit against this type of build. But yes, you are correct that drops are the most effective. Take an early third and try to pick the protoss apart and force mistakes. Do not let your medivacs die. Otherwise ghost timings, or heavy viking bio pushes still work just like against every other build. The weakest point I found through playing this style is when the protoss has blink but is researching 2/2 and charge. That's a lot of money dumped into tech that has not yet come into play.
I don't agree that there are plenty of timings that terran can exploit but I suspect that you mean something different from what I'm interpreting. This build is completely safe and solid and no timings can kill it if Protoss reacts properly.
Ghost timings can be fended off and heavy viking bio pushes don't really work, because your opponent would have to predict you're going colossi and precounter you. Unlike straight colossi, this build uses colossi as a surprise and isn't particular vulnerable to "viking bio" pushes.
Since this is a safe, solid style, the best way to beat it is to outplay your opponent. Catch him offguard, spread him out thin with intelligent drops or go for the late game by keeping decently on par with upgrades and outplay him there.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 08:12 architecture wrote:
Let me guess what the optimal T response is.
2 base marine tank banshee transition into mm + ebays.
The reason is that T needs to get starport level units to pressure immediately, but since it's so expensive, upgrades have to be delayed. This P build directly counters 3rax drop play and overruns with ups after defense. But tank banshee at 11m will force P to cancel ups and even out the timing.
2 base marine tank banshee can't be a response because you can't scout the build out in time to make that switch. To do a 2 base marine tank banshee push, you pretty much have to commit to marine tank banshee way before forges go up. And it's not even a blind counter, as the protoss can cancel forges if he spots marine tank banshee or he can choose to not do this strategy if he spots only marines.
This build doesn't directly counter 3 rax drop play aka standard play at all. It's just one viable build against it and usually the person who played better will win from these 2 builds.
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Regarding your point about the better player winning given those openings, I can agree that it's very map dependent. I would argue though that more concrete cards are in P's favor. Ups and production, and sufficient tech. T of course has potentially more punishing army and maybe 3rd.
Personally I think taking gas and getting an early factory before expo will become standard. It's remarkably versatile offensively and defensively, while almost every bio build has significant vulnerabilities ramping up through port after 3 rax.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 06:52 Skyro wrote:
Nice guide. Some questions you may be able to help me out with:
1) When do you recommend doing the templar switch (outside of the double engi bay scenario you mentioned)? On your 4th base? After you're maxed and phase them in as you trade armies? Once it gets late game you pretty much need both Colossi + Templar to deal with the Terran deathball, but I see your point about the upgrade advantage.
2) I assume you grab the gasses at your 3rd right away?
3) It seems Creator also has a pretty standard time he grabs his fouth (I haven't watch all the games) as well (~17:00)?
4) What is the optimal stalker mix in your max army in your opinion?
It may be worth it to go into slightly more detail about the opening. For example it is very common to get the robo before the 2nd and 3rd gates if you scout no early aggression i.e. gasless FE.
Also another variation I've seen (I think it was Killer) is on huge maps they go DT first instead of colossi, presumably since DTs can keep aggression at bay by constantly forcing scans. What do you think about this variation?
1. Depends on the individual game. Ask yourself, how effective will pressuring with your archon based army be or will you have to play for the extreme late game?
2. Yes, always
3. Again, depends on the mix.
4. I usually end up with around 10-12. You want enough to be able to deter drops and vikings sniping your colossi. Of course zealots, immortals, archons, and colossi are better for the actual fight.
The guide would be much longer if I had to talk about the opening. Plus, a large variety of openings can transition into this style. I'm writing a 1 gate FE opening guide soon though.
You mean killer goes blink into dt into charge? That's really a totally different strategy.
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Great write-up! Don't have time to read all of it right now, but I thought I would also recommend looking at TSLKiller's style of double-robo. It's similar, but it might help to get some more examples. Who knows, just putting it out there. I'm pretty sure he used it in his Ro32 games from November. Pretty sure.
I really like the double-forge play, it sets up so nicely against a Terran late game, ESPECIALLY if you can keep them preoccupied enough with some harass to take away their focus and economy for upgrades. Can work so well if you can do that properly, in my experience.
Anyways, thanks for another good one NrG!
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Nice guide, I like the point about timing the forge's to finish just after obs can scout which I found very interesting.
I tend to play it a bit more greedy myself though, sometimes getting forge before robo if I feel especially confident they won't be playing banshee early, for example if they gasless FE'd. I think in general it's a good idea to stagger the forge upgrades. Getting 1 forge slightly before the second and starting armor a bit before weapons is safer and better imo, though it does require a little more attention macro wise. Instead of waiting for 300 minerals you can just spend 150 and then the second 150 later and you get the added benefit of being able to switch to just 1 forge a bit easier.
Also if you have a feeling they'll be doing a 2 base all-in variant i'd always go for fast colo, it's just safer imo and should beat almost any 2 base all-in.
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On December 08 2011 09:01 NrGmonk wrote:
You mean killer goes blink into dt into charge? That's really a totally different strategy.
Yeah well obviously if you go DTs after that point it plays a lot differently, but what I mean is that the opening up to that point is nearly identical with double forge, gateway timings, etc. except that he gets an earlier 3rd gas (I assume because of how gas intensive DTs are). IIRC I believe Oz did this to Nada on Daybreak and Killer did this to somebody (I forget, I think in the Ro32) on Calm Before the Storm in the GSL November Code S.
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Jesus christ someone give this guy a medal.
Nicely written guide. Easy to read, detailed, and above all, relevant all the way from the lowest to highest points of player skill.
Best protoss guide on TL currently.
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Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for the guide.
My PvT is pretty solid in the opening, but after I get my FE up, robo and gates, I typically just wing it with even successes and failures. Now I have some guidance on where to take the game after the opening and the understanding to go with it.
Thanks again,lots of information to improve my game play.
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The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no?
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out of interest could you post a guide detailing how you get to this point? for instance how you go about testing each possibility and refining your knowledge about the style/build to get to this final stage that you show us here?
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Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
User was warned for this post
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On December 08 2011 16:13 K3Nyy wrote:
The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no?
if terran does this then the protoss is suddenly able to become super greedy themselves and it would end up even in that sense
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On December 08 2011 17:16 unit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:13 K3Nyy wrote:
The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no? if terran does this then the protoss is suddenly able to become super greedy themselves and it would end up even in that sense
Can they? Protoss is investing so much in forges/upgrades/twilight/blink and a lot of Stalkers. MMM are ridiculous cost efficient vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry and without the upgrades and Blink kicking in, I really don't think they'd be able to hold the expansion. Not to mention, there's actually no way to scout whether the Terran has a 3rd or not that early until Protoss gets a Robo, which is going to be quite a while away.
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On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
Do you just complain about people to increase your post count?
Do you even read the guide or just (post and ask questions) to increase post count seriously?
On topic, the answer to your question is actually in the guide!
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Really on topic: Thanks for putting this guide together. I've been trying out the double forge style for quite a while but have often died to those ~10 minute timings or been significient behind in the midgame, I think this will help me to enter a more solid midgame.
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This build is great, although like others have said I have kinda been winging it after the FE and forges drop. This build is especially good on maps like Shakuras with a ramp at your nat as you can just FF the terran away and stop aggression. I have noticed that it is hard to take a third but its not really that big a deal. If I cannot take a third I just start colossus and continues upgrades. Your army is incredibly cost efficient and the terran cannot kill you with this composition. I then take a 3rd and 4th at the same time and control the middle while watching for drops. Your main and nat should not be mined out yet by this point and then you can instantly fully saturate your 3rd and 4th if this happens. From this point on I just aggressively expand and pick favorable engagements.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
From the guide:
Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech.
Edit: another question on the build: i always thought that when going double forge you should try to time the twilight council to finish right as 1/1 finishes, so you can start 2/2 right away. Is it that important to get it faster for faster blink/charge, like in this variation of the build?
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
It's nice to be acknowledged.
On December 08 2011 16:38 unit wrote:
out of interest could you post a guide detailing how you get to this point? for instance how you go about testing each possibility and refining your knowledge about the style/build to get to this final stage that you show us here?
Ok, here's a miniguide:
Watch the vods/replays, write down the build, then try to understand every action and decision behind the moves that the player makes in relation to the scouting information he receives. Watch the vods/replays over and over again to get everything in. Then just play a lot and lose a lot. Watch the replays where you lost and figure out how you can fix those problems. After you come up with a solution, try to get a practice partner to do the thing you lost to see if your adjustment works. It's kinda like scientific method. Once you're only losing because of your own mistakes, stuff like lack of multitasking, scouting, or bad unit positioning, and not because of the actual build.
Here's some examples of problems I ran into with the build. I used to tweak it a bit, getting 3 initial obs, 5 sentry, and 3 immortals, and earlier gas timing instead of 2 initial obs, 4 sentry, and 2 immortals as Creator does. What ended up happening was all this extra stuff was delaying my 4/5/6th gates. I then felt compelled to make a cannon at my front vs normal 3 rax starport because of my low zealot count. Then, the terran just did a 2 medivac drop into my base and I couldn't deny it even though i saw it because of my low stalker count. And my low stalker count was because of that extra sentry/obs/immortal/cannon plus the fact that my gates still weren't up. So at this point I took too much economic damage from the first drop and essentially lost the game there. My conclusion was that with that current exact build, I couldn't defend that drop and I asked myself why did I lose? The immediate answer was lack of stalkers to deny the drop. Why? Because my 4/5/6th gates were late and I was slightly money starved. Why? Because I invested into an extra obs/sentry/immortal/cannon. So what I did was cut all of those out. 3 early game observers is actually just kinda useless before drops are out. 5th sentry doesn't do too much as I'm not relying too much on forcefields. 3rd immortal drags my army down a lot as I found out I'd much rather have extra zealots anyways if it came to a straight up fight. And I took later gas to further boost my mineral income. From these simple changes, I came closer to the original creator build and gained a greater understanding and appreciation of his build.
On December 08 2011 17:47 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:16 unit wrote:On December 08 2011 16:13 K3Nyy wrote:
The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no? if terran does this then the protoss is suddenly able to become super greedy themselves and it would end up even in that sense Can they? Protoss is investing so much in forges/upgrades/twilight/blink and a lot of Stalkers. MMM are ridiculous cost efficient vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry and without the upgrades and Blink kicking in, I really don't think they'd be able to hold the expansion. Not to mention, there's actually no way to scout whether the Terran has a 3rd or not that early until Protoss gets a Robo, which is going to be quite a while away.
Yes, you will fall economically behind if the terran goes 1 rax cc into 3rd cc. But honestly any non allin falls behind that. There are 2 things that prevent you from taking an early 3 normally, massive pushes and drops. Because terran took an early expand, he'll be down initially by 400, so you can invest an equally costly 400 into a nexus and you'll each be down 400 when the push comes. In addition, it's very very unlikely the terran will push anytime soon after he takes such an early 3rd. Also, there's no chance of drops spreading you out too thin vs an early third.
On December 08 2011 18:38 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
On topic, how does this do vs mech? From the guide: Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech. Edit: another question on the build: i always thought that when going double forge you should try to time the twilight council to finish right as 1/1 finishes, so you can start 2/2 right away. Is it that important to get it faster for faster blink/charge, like in this variation of the build?
Not super important in that it's essential. However, if you know for a fact that he's going fast medivacs, he probably won't push you early so it can't really hurt to get that earlier twilight. And blink is really good for versus medivac drops.
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lol I feel like a little platinum newbie when I say this, but I can't wait to go try this out! My PvT is easily my worst matchup atm and this looks really promising.
Thanks for the great guide, as usual.
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I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles.
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very nice guide, monk. i always enjoy your thought process analyses.
edit: this should help me clear out the kinks in my pvt. i am confident in my pvt, but there are just some games i lose where i go wtf where did i go wrong. overmaking sentries and immortals, not getting the 456 gates quick enough, two obs before immortals, earlier robo bay, those kinds of things.
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Very sexy way to play PvT, I will deffinetly incorparate this in my standard play.
I just have one question, is this anything close or different than that style MC has?
It feels almost the same except he goes HT for storm with warp prism drops, to prevent EMPing.
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I was watching Naniwa play some months ago after he first made the move to korea and started training and he adopted a very similar style to this opening fast expands into double forge plays, going archons in double robo collosus timings whilst researching storm - i've been meaning to work this more into my plays but ive been experimenting a lot with stargates lately.
After the blink research time increase i have started to feel a bit of a preference for charge - especially if the terran is playing aggressively, (blink is particularly useful for shutting down drops by sniping medivacs, but try dropping marines/rauders out 1 at a time with 3-4 zealots standing underneath them untill you can get blink - if he's lazy and sends a medivac or 2 with too much energy you just warp in HT's and feedback 1 shot them anyway)
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
Just because you tried it out a few times and it didn't work for you doesn't mean the whole strategy is unviable. I lost a lot too when I first started learning a new style, but I stuck with it, learned how to adapt, and ironed out the kinks. Now, I'm fairly successful with it at a high level. I never lose anymore cause of the build, but rather because of my personal mistakes and getting outplayed, which is exactly what you want from a safe/solid build. I'd also say going 5-0 in the semifinals of GSTL might give it some validation.
It seems to me that you simply have problems with drops, which is not the build's probably at all. In fact, I would argue that this build has an easier time with drops than something like fast colossi. If you're having problems with drops, it probably has to do with your vision. Use pylons and observers better.
In relation to defending a third. Yes, this build does rely on good forcefields before your first colossi pops out, but it's not like good forcefields are impossible without good terrain as you describe it. I honestly don't see the different between defending a frontal attack from your 3rd and at your natural.
On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles.
The rest of your post is just suggesting a completely different style that has nothing to do with this guide. Tbh this post just makes me feel that you're overly stubborn that the style you use is definitively the best and you're not willing to consider the merits of other styles.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 20:40 eYeball wrote:
Very sexy way to play PvT, I will deffinetly incorparate this in my standard play.
I just have one question, is this anything close or different than that style MC has?
It feels almost the same except he goes HT for storm with warp prism drops, to prevent EMPing.
It's very different. The only similarities are that MC gets double forge early and blink first but the similarities end there.
On December 08 2011 20:46 tsango wrote:
I was watching Naniwa play some months ago after he first made the move to korea and started training and he adopted a very similar style to this opening fast expands into double forge plays, going archons in double robo collosus timings whilst researching storm - i've been meaning to work this more into my plays but ive been experimenting a lot with stargates lately.
After the blink research time increase i have started to feel a bit of a preference for charge - especially if the terran is playing aggressively, (blink is particularly useful for shutting down drops by sniping medivacs, but try dropping marines/rauders out 1 at a time with 3-4 zealots standing underneath them untill you can get blink - if he's lazy and sends a medivac or 2 with too much energy you just warp in HT's and feedback 1 shot them anyway)
Nanaiwa's style was very different from what this is. His build was something like double forge into charge into archon into double robo colossi while this is double forge into blink into immortals into colossi into charge into archons.
As for blink vs charge, you can experiment with charge first. I personally favor blink as it deters and punishes dropping more. With good vision and practice, drops shouldn't be that huge a problem compared with charge first. Plus if you use zealots to deter drops, you'll have fewer zealots with your main army and a resource imbalance from so many zealots.
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I signed up to comment on this.
Thanks so much for writing this, I've been working really hard on my PvT and this guide contains a ton of useful information. I have also been closely studying the way MC executes 1gate FE and I do use his variant from time to time. I can't wait to read your guide on it.
A few weeks ago major was talking about 3 colossi being the money number to get and then switching back to immortal production and adding in archons based on scouting. It's very nice to see a cleaner write up of that here in this guide.
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On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles.
100% agree. I do think it's best to just get 8stalkers with blink first and then go mass chargelot/ht.
This is what I think about double forge:
- Going robo feels bad. It's nice to have the observers but imo it just costs too much and delays everything by too much.
It's better to go 3gate-double forges-gates. By doing this your forges can be at 7:00. With robo you just make everything so complicated. Your gates are later so ther's a timing where multipronged attacks are just insanely good. Also even with a colossi out your army feels weak, taking the third is so much harder with colossi. If you go ht your production is simply a lot higher and you can really overwhelm him with mass gateway and an upgrade advantage.
Also it's quite weird you specifically state in your guide that the more units you have the more important upgrades get, and then proceed to do a build that gets very slow gateway production.
- Get the extra gates at 8minish and the tc after it, it's a lot safer.
- Ht tech is better than colossi. You will have a lot of gas and with ht you can quickly dump that, while colossi build 1 by 1. If you have storm fast terran can't really do anything, while colossi only get good once you reach a high number ( pretty slow). Doing it this way also allows you to take the third a lot faster.
-After third is safe get up to 11gates and one robo for obs, take your fourth and get triple robo colossi for a deadly techswitch.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 21:06 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 20:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map. I tried it a month ago and it really didn't work in a lot of circumstances on maps like shakuras plateau. you have long walking distances from your third (whichever you may take) back in your main. because you will have a low blink stalker count and can be dropped basically anywhere, you often times can't deny drops. and once the units are out of the medivacs, you will take a lot of damage.
on maps with lots of open ground by your third, the build also can get you in trouble. with the low unit count and colossi tech, you basically rely on good force fields when you want to take your third, which are impossible to do without the use of terrain (think of the third shakuras plateau again).
that's why I like to follow up double forge with a quick twilight council and charge (if your ressources allow you to, you can get it together with the two forges). you will just have so many units, that you can defend drops and direct attacks witch just a-moving zealots + forcefields (I usually get some stalkers to shoot down dropships, too). because of the heavy zealots, you can get 5 or 6 sentries and a quick templar archives. I use it for one or two archons (depends on how much gas I have) and go up to 8 gateways and research storm and take a third. the third is so much quicker and safer compared to double forge with colossus, because you can actually safely move out. not only can you fight more effective on open grounds, but you can warp in 8 units to defend drops at home.
when the third is running, you can get double robo colossus up and defend with storm for the time being.
On tal darim the creator-build is quite good, but on other maps, it's just very fragile and has more weaknesses compared to the heavy gateway macro style. so you really should try out both styles. 100% agree. I do think it's best to just get 8stalkers with blink first and then go mass chargelot/ht. This is what I think about double forge: - Going robo feels bad. It's nice to have the observers but imo it just costs too much and delays everything by too much. It's better to go 3gate-double forges-gates. By doing this your forges can be at 7:00. With robo you just make everything so complicated. Your gates are later so ther's a timing where multipronged attacks are just insanely good. Also even with a colossi out your army feels weak, taking the third is so much harder with colossi. If you go ht your production is simply a lot higher and you can really overwhelm him with mass gateway and an upgrade advantage.
Yes, 3 gate into double robo is viable; it is one option, but you seem to ignore all the advantages of going robo first. Vs some expands, such as reactor expand with cc on high ground, it's almost essential that you get a robo in the case of a 1 base play.
Getting a robo allows you to spot for his tech and respond accordingly. The most important thing you can scout is an early 3rd cc. If you had just gone for a no obs build, you wouldn't be able to react by counter expanding and instead would just expand at your normal time.
You require blind cannons in your mineral lines to be safe vs cloaked banshees.
Blink stalkers defend drops much better when obs are involved.
Also it's quite weird you specifically state in your guide that the more units you have the more important upgrades get, and then proceed to do a build that gets very slow gateway production.
You're trying to argue the exact opposite of what I intended that tip to be for. You sacrifice army early on to get upgrades faster so your max can be as strong as possible. The whole purpose of the build is to be as safe as possible with a small army with few upgrades so that later on you can have a big army with big upgrades. At the mid-game timing, you don't care how big your army is as long as you can defend everything. You're not trying to be aggressive or anything.
- Get the extra gates at 8minish and the tc after it, it's a lot safer.
With a no robo build, sure. Not with this build though.
- Ht tech is better than colossi. You will have a lot of gas and with ht you can quickly dump that, while colossi build 1 by 1. If you have storm fast terran can't really do anything, while colossi only get good once you reach a high number ( pretty slow). Doing it this way also allows you to take the third a lot faster.
Complete opinion. Ht tech is not definitively better than colossi. Each has its advantages.
-After third is safe get up to 11gates and one robo for obs, take your fourth and get triple robo colossi for a deadly techswitch.
Again, just a completely different style. I'm going to tell you the same thing I told the other guy.
On December 08 2011 20:49 NrGmonk wrote:
This post just makes me feel that you're overly stubborn that the style you use is definitively the best and you're not willing to consider the merits of other styles.
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I've been using this style since the creator/genius games and I have to say I much prefer it to the fast colossus and fast single forge/tc styles. Overall it feels so much safer vs any form of harass with the fast blink and 2-3 obs allowing you to keep your 8-10 stalkers permanently in your main until he moves out as you always know where his army is and it has an answer to every push. Ive found even with tank/bio pushes off 2base are easily dealt with it if you get a faster tc for charge before blink you can wipe out any push with 1/1 chargelots. But in every other case Ive found blink first a must
Also the final game of hero v puma at DH finals is the perfect example of this build v a ghost timing, you delay your 4th 5th and 6th gates for more units and get a cannon up.
He also opts to go straight to storm aswell not bothering with archons which imo is better unless your going to basically go all in on 3-3 200
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 08 2011 20:49 NrGmonk wrote:
Just because you tried it out a few times and it didn't work for you doesn't mean the whole strategy is unviable. I lost a lot too when I first started learning a new style, but I stuck with it, learned how to adapt, and ironed out the kinks.
I played a lot of games with it and came to the conclusion, that the build limits you so much on certain maps/spawns, that it's not worth it. On a map where you have air space all around your main and a long way to your third, you can't deny damage, if you want to get your third reasonable quick (the timing creator uses). on these maps the most basic standard terran builds (3 rax, starport, ebay, third cc) outmacro you completely while they have the potential to kill probes or even a nexus/nexus cancel.
Now, I'm fairly successful with it at a high level. I never lose anymore cause of the build, but rather because of my personal mistakes and getting outplayed, which is exactly what you want from a safe/solid build. I'd also say going 5-0 in the semifinals of GSTL might give it some validation.
on tal darim the style is really solid. your bases are relatively close together, the distance between spawns is big. it's hard to drop without getting spotted.
game on belshir: Heart never tried to spread out Creator when he took his third. the third is so far away and you can drop the main from the center, that's just bad by Heart.
on crossfire colossi are just good. the game is over before it gets to third bases. however the game demonstrates that it's doable against a ghost push.
sculp tries to harras genius while he is on two bases. that's the point this style is the strongest, I think (immortals,1-1, 6 warpgates). He took his third way before genius, so there is no reason to loose the army like that.
jjakji gets his additional barracks and ghost academy before his third cc. this is bad against this build and it's by far not standard anymore.
It seems to me that you simply have problems with drops, which is not the build's probably at all. In fact, I would argue that this build has an easier time with drops than something like fast colossi. If you're having problems with drops, it probably has to do with your vision. Use pylons and observers better.
I don't have problems against drops. I agree with you, that creator's style has an easier time to deal with drops than fast colossus. But with the mass gateway zealot heavy style it's even easier. ESPECIALLY if you are spread out and try to take your third. if you miss one drop and don't shoot it down with your stalkers and all the units are out, stalkers are really bad. if you just have a hand full of zealots with charge in addition to some stalkers (+ warp ins) drops don't really do damage at all. and you can spread out, because you have the numbers
In relation to defending a third. Yes, this build does rely on good forcefields before your first colossi pops out, but it's not like good forcefields are impossible without good terrain as you describe it. I honestly don't see the different between defending a frontal attack from your 3rd and at your natural.
on some maps, there is a lot more open space to cover at your third than at your natural. in addition, if you are low on units, the terran can load up his trapped units and drop them behind the forcefields.
because you want immortals, stalkers, colossi and upgrades, you have a low sentry count. and you rely on those forcefields, because otherwise your colossi can get sniped etc. with upgraded chargelots and two archons behind them, you don't rely on them as much.
The rest of your post is just suggesting a completely different style that has nothing to do with this guide. Tbh this post just makes me feel that you're overly stubborn that the style you use is definitively the best and you're not willing to consider the merits of other styles.
haha. I just get the same impression of you. I said that the creator style is strong in certain situations and has it's weaknesses in others. I just explained a different double forge style which has it's edges in that situations. the creator build has the advantage that you get all your upgrades AND colossi out where as the other style gets a quicker third and does not take damage as much against harassment.
I am just saying, everyone should be aware of both styles and you shouldn't use the creator style in every situation.
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On December 08 2011 21:49 NrGmonk wrote:
Yes, 3 gate into double robo is viable; it is one option, but you seem to ignore all the advantages of going robo first. Vs some expands, such as reactor expand with cc on high ground, it's almost essential that you get a robo in the case of a 1 base play.
Getting a robo allows you to spot for his tech and respond accordingly. The most important thing you can scout is an early 3rd cc. If you had just gone for a no obs build, you wouldn't be able to react by counter expanding and instead would just expand at your normal time.
You require blind cannons in your mineral lines to be safe vs cloaked banshees.
Blink stalkers defend drops much better when obs are involved.
I get the robo just for observers. it doesn't interfere with the gameplan too much. you rarely get killed by an expansion build of the terran if you got 3 gates before robo. it delays the charge a little, but if I scout pressure (with the obs  ) I use some chrono on the charge instead on the forges. I can't remember a game where I lost in that stage of the game, which had anything to do with getting a robo.
so it's possible with robo and it feels even better with obs out.
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On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
perhaps its because they appreciate the work that the topic poster has done. Its not just this guide but a number of guides also he talks and helps in a lot more guides and quesitons asked. Im always keen to learn new builds and find the right build for me, and id always say thanks to someone who has provided a detailed strategy to help me improve my understanding of this game. The game I love.
Thanks for another guide!!! cannot wait for the next one!
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United States8476 Posts
I feel this build is definetely not viable on any map.
This is the quote that made me think you weren't considering CreatorPrime style at all. Perhaps you meant "not viable on every map". If this were true, I'd be much more accepting of your statements, although I would still have to disagree with your assessment, because I believe if you play well, you can defend against anything.
Take your shakuras example. If you spawn top left, you can take the nook and cranny 3rd. You have basically 3 attack options for the terran. The right of your main can be covered by blink stalkers and an observer. The bottom of your natural and the right of your third can be covered by stationing your main army between your natural and third. Your stalkers can easily blink down to reinforce as well. If you really want to be safe, you can place a cannon in either your main or natural.
I'm not criticizing your suggested style at all. I'm just defending against the criticisms you made on Creator's style.
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On December 08 2011 23:06 NrGmonk wrote:This is the quote that made me think you weren't considering CreatorPrime style at all. Perhaps you meant "not viable on every map".
that's exactly what I meant. I am not a native speaker, so sorry for the confusion.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 08 2011 21:50 decerto wrote:I've been using this style since the creator/genius games and I have to say I much prefer it to the fast colossus and fast single forge/tc styles. Overall it feels so much safer vs any form of harass with the fast blink and 2-3 obs allowing you to keep your 8-10 stalkers permanently in your main until he moves out as you always know where his army is and it has an answer to every push. Ive found even with tank/bio pushes off 2base are easily dealt with it if you get a faster tc for charge before blink you can wipe out any push with 1/1 chargelots. But in every other case Ive found blink first a must Also the final game of hero v puma at DH finals is the perfect example of this build v a ghost timing, you delay your 4th 5th and 6th gates for more units and get a cannon up. He also opts to go straight to storm aswell not bothering with archons which imo is better unless your going to basically go all in on 3-3 200 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo9WyFlzmA&feature=player_embedded
Yea, I didn't even realize Hero used creatorprime style in this game until you mentioned it. I'll be sure to make a note of it and analyze it in my guide. Also, I do agree that templar was a good choice over archons in this situation, but more on that later. Thanks!
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I'm a little curious about how you feel about delaying the robo. I personally make it a point to grab the two forges after gateways and before the robo, so around 630 or so if I can scout marauders. I usually open with Huk's 20 nexus build so if I'm poking and I see marauders, then I usually delay the robo by a good amount in favor of the two forges.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 09 2011 01:23 CaptainHaz wrote:
I'm a little curious about how you feel about delaying the robo. I personally make it a point to grab the two forges after gateways and before the robo, so around 630 or so if I can scout marauders. I usually open with Huk's 20 nexus build so if I'm poking and I see marauders, then I usually delay the robo by a good amount in favor of the two forges.
I can see this working only if you can confirm bio from your opponent and confirm your opponent has expanded before you throw down the forge. Doing both would be very hard. For example, if your opponent did a 1 rax no gas expand, he can choose to not show you any marauders and a good play will do so. Vs a 1 rax tech lab expand, your opponent might initially hide his cc in his main before you commit to forges or a robo. Also, without early obs, you will not be able to gather the information you need to do the responses i suggest.
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What's the general response to either gasless 2rax expand -> marine poke or that 1rax gasless fe-> 3 more rax gasless marine poke? It usually hits at ~40-50 supply so I only have 1 or 2 warp in cycles of units. I have to either pull probes to defend or let my nexus tank for a while to hold it. If he brings SCVs I risk losing the expansion.
I don't lose to it but I'm just wondering what the standard/most optimal response to it is.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 09 2011 01:57 name_lock wrote:
What's the general response to either gasless 2rax expand -> marine poke or that 1rax gasless fe-> 3 more rax gasless marine poke? It usually hits at ~40-50 supply so I only have 1 or 2 warp in cycles of units. I have to either pull probes to defend or let my nexus tank for a while to hold it. If he brings SCVs I risk losing the expansion.
I don't lose to it but I'm just wondering what the standard/most optimal response to it is.
Not the right thread to post this, but stalker kiting is the answer to both. 2 rax gasless expand is very rare and 2 rax gasless is mostly used as an allin.
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I need some help with the 1gate expand part when the tarren does a 2 rax with shell. I've been told I can kill it with the 1 zealot and 2 stalkers and with gate,gate,gas,pylon. there is a small timing where I can get a extra unit, usually a zealot. I know this might sound greedy but I don't want to pull probes if possible. With all that said is there a game where a Protoss does this build Vs 2rax with shell?
I can post a replay if that would help
and if my NA rank matters I am a Master's Protoss.
btw if they don't 2 rax with shell or i am still alive I usually win due to the power of this build and the timing you have as the protoss.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:42 SkyBlaze wrote:
I need some help with the 1gate expand part when the tarren does a 2 rax with shell. I've been told I can kill it with the 1 zealot and 2 stalkers and with gate,gate,gas,pylon. there is a small timing where I can get a extra unit, usually a zealot. I know this might sound greedy but I don't want to pull probes if possible. With all that said is there a game where a Protoss does this build Vs 2rax with shell?
I can post a replay if that would help
and if my NA rank matters I am a Master's Protoss.
btw if they don't 2 rax with shell or i am still alive I usually win due to the power of this build and the timing you have as the protoss.
I specifically said the early game is not within the scope of this guide. I'm working on a guide involving a safe version of 1 gate expand. It should be up in the next month or so wait patiently. The short answer for you is that if you just keep chronoing out stalkers and add 2 gates at a good time, you can hold it off without pulling probes as long as your opponent doesn't pull to many scvs.
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On December 08 2011 04:35 NrGmonk wrote:
Next guide: MC's 1 gate FE
Is MC's 1 gate FE your recommended/go-to opener for this style? If not, would you suggest a particular one?
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Mother of God.
Just tried this on the korean server, I wasn't even doing the build totally correct (missed the timing for my 4th and 5th gateways by a small margin of 2 minutes lol) and I had 3/3 by 16:30 and was maxed before then. What an amazing style, I love it.
Diamond League KR by the way.
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greedy but still wrecks 2rax xD
this guide is so useful, ive just been doing this without getting the immortals, so i started getting the immortals, the difference that they make is amazing, also i thought that 4rax was standard not 3 T_T
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Hi kcdc I was wondering if you knew the main difference between MC's 1gate FE and your old 1gate FE? If you are not familiar with MC's style, or you feel it more appropriate to just wait for Monk to release his guide it's okay.
Thanks for writing your guides by the way, they're very clean and to the point with just enough making it nice to read.
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Italy12246 Posts
Could you please share some of your own replays? I would like to compare the timings for when stuff goes down and unit counts when i try this build, and when better players do. Thanks a lot!
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I'm only plat, so all the details about "make only two immortal, else you'll miss some gas for..." fly way above me, but... But this guide is priceless, for its "Reaction to initial scouting" part. Really. A must read. Monk, I want to marry you.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 09 2011 20:28 Forbidden17 wrote:Hi kcdc I was wondering if you knew the main difference between MC's 1gate FE and your old 1gate FE? If you are not familiar with MC's style, or you feel it more appropriate to just wait for Monk to release his guide it's okay. Thanks for writing your guides by the way, they're very clean and to the point with just enough making it nice to read.
MC's is safer in that you can hold early pressures while pulling less probes and better overall versus proxies.
The other advantage is that you can make less of a judgement call on the robo timing. With kcdc's new build, you have to choose between 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo.
The advantages of kcdc's new build are that it gets 2 probes less and a 15 seconds later nexus.
You also get one early sentry to build up energy with kcdc's build.
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I am a visual learner when I go off of a style that I didn't research first hand myself and I thought I might share a visual aid I made based on the opening post.
+ Show Spoiler +
Please let me know if there is a correction that should be made as I can fix any errors and update that.
Question: What do you feel is the best gateway count on 4 and 5 bases? If a game goes long enoigg to hit that many bases do you ever add a 2nd robo to help with a faster change back into collossus?
edited with input you added below.
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really helpful guide. please create more :D thanks!
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United States8476 Posts
On December 10 2011 02:14 vaderseven wrote:I am a viaual learner when I go off of a style that I didn't research first hand myself and I thought I might share a visual aid I made based on the opening post. Please let me know if there is a correction that should be made as I can fix any errors and update that. Question: What do you feel is the best gateway count on 4 and 5 bases? If a game goes long enoigg to hit that many bases do you ever add a 2nd robo to help with a faster change back into collossus?
You gotta use TL's image upload method to directly add images to your post. I had to check the code for your post to check the image.
You should confirm your opponent is on 2 base before you even start forges. Thus, your first 2 offshoots aren't really right. I almost meant you shouldn't do this strategy vs a 2 base marine tank banshee.
I don't think it's within the scope of this guide to recommend what to do versus mech, and I personally do something different vs mech than what you suggest, so no comment there.
I'm planning on slightly changing my recommendations for templar vs archons, so wait for that.
You can't spell medivacs.
I usually end up on 10 gates on 3 base for a normal game and at the very minimum add 2 gates for each additional base i get. However, it really depends on your bank and how many gates you can afford.
2nd robo is good for longer games.
Btw is this what you do at work?
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Depends on the day. Seeing as I basically buy things for the hospital and clean up patient assignments and monitor workload reports.... and half the staff is on vacation....
Ya today things like this is what your tax dollars are going towards. I fixed the tags before you posted.
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On December 10 2011 00:31 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 20:28 Forbidden17 wrote:Hi kcdc I was wondering if you knew the main difference between MC's 1gate FE and your old 1gate FE? If you are not familiar with MC's style, or you feel it more appropriate to just wait for Monk to release his guide it's okay. Thanks for writing your guides by the way, they're very clean and to the point with just enough making it nice to read. MC's is safer in that you can hold early pressures while pulling less probes and better overall versus proxies. The other advantage is that you can make less of a judgement call on the robo timing. With kcdc's new build, you have to choose between 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo. The advantages of kcdc's new build are that it gets 2 probes less and a 15 seconds later nexus. You also get one early sentry to build up energy with kcdc's build.
I was referring to his old 30 Nexus one (not his new 27nexus) that got 2 stalkers before Nexus and cut probes to throw down 2 more gateways if you scout pressure. His new one has a window where it is slightly more vulnerable but should still be able to deal with most terran aggression.
And did you mean a 15second earlier nexus? I'm pretty sure his 27nexus was faster than MC's?
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On December 10 2011 04:51 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 00:31 NrGmonk wrote:On December 09 2011 20:28 Forbidden17 wrote:Hi kcdc I was wondering if you knew the main difference between MC's 1gate FE and your old 1gate FE? If you are not familiar with MC's style, or you feel it more appropriate to just wait for Monk to release his guide it's okay. Thanks for writing your guides by the way, they're very clean and to the point with just enough making it nice to read. MC's is safer in that you can hold early pressures while pulling less probes and better overall versus proxies. The other advantage is that you can make less of a judgement call on the robo timing. With kcdc's new build, you have to choose between 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo. The advantages of kcdc's new build are that it gets 2 probes less and a 15 seconds later nexus. You also get one early sentry to build up energy with kcdc's build. I was referring to his old 30 Nexus one (not his new 27nexus) that got 2 stalkers before Nexus and cut probes to throw down 2 more gateways if you scout pressure. His new one has a window where it is slightly more vulnerable but should still be able to deal with most terran aggression. And did you mean a 15second earlier nexus? I'm pretty sure his 27nexus was faster than MC's?
Yea I meant earlier nexus. My bad
Compared to kcdc's old build, MC's build skips the sentry as the 4th unit instead opting for a faster robo with that 100 gas. In addition, it relies on a chornoed 1st gateway instead of chornoed warpgates to hold off any pressures. This is mostly because of the wg change that made kcdc's old build obsolete.
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On December 10 2011 00:31 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 20:28 Forbidden17 wrote:Hi kcdc I was wondering if you knew the main difference between MC's 1gate FE and your old 1gate FE? If you are not familiar with MC's style, or you feel it more appropriate to just wait for Monk to release his guide it's okay. Thanks for writing your guides by the way, they're very clean and to the point with just enough making it nice to read. MC's is safer in that you can hold early pressures while pulling less probes and better overall versus proxies. The other advantage is that you can make less of a judgement call on the robo timing. With kcdc's new build, you have to choose between 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo. The advantages of kcdc's new build are that it gets 2 probes less and a 15 seconds later nexus. You also get one early sentry to build up energy with kcdc's build.
Don't want to derail this thread too much. This is mostly right except that the nexus is earlier, not later, and choosing between 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo isn't a critical judgement call--both are perfectly safe if you play them right. The judgement is more about what you want to do in mid-game and less about what you have to do to stay alive. Looking forward to a more thorough discussion of 1 gate FE's in your next guide, Monk.
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Good guide, very solid build. Thanks for posting this broseph
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I'd like to add, that the Timing of Double-Forge and Gas is around the point of optimal saturation at the Natural. With that trigger, it is much easier to get back into the build if you get thrown off early on (for example due to a proxy).
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Recent changes:
Slightly changed my recommendations about archons versus templar
Added an analysis of LiquidHero vs EGPuma's Dreamhack finals game
Added vaderseven's visual version of my guide
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This is the second one of these guides I've seen you written (the other being about Brown), and they're fantastic. I don't even play Protoss, but reading this guide has helped make it more clear the mindset of a Protoss so I can better deal with them. I just wish you played Terran so that I could benefit even more from these guides ^^; Keep up the good work.
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On December 10 2011 08:42 The Final Boss wrote:
This is the second one of these guides I've seen you written (the other being about Brown), and they're fantastic. I don't even play Protoss, but reading this guide has helped make it more clear the mindset of a Protoss so I can better deal with them. I just wish you played Terran so that I could benefit even more from these guides ^^; Keep up the good work.
You haven't read my other guides?
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Thank you so very much for this, my macro PvT needs serious work seeming as I almost never get to practice it, silly cheesy ladder terrans.
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On December 10 2011 08:45 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 08:42 The Final Boss wrote:
This is the second one of these guides I've seen you written (the other being about Brown), and they're fantastic. I don't even play Protoss, but reading this guide has helped make it more clear the mindset of a Protoss so I can better deal with them. I just wish you played Terran so that I could benefit even more from these guides ^^; Keep up the good work. You haven't read my other guides?
I've actually been going through them. I don't play P but all the PvT (EDIT: well the PvX ones anyways) ones help me understand the match-up better.
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I'v been trying this build fomr some time now, but I cant get the robo-timing. Can you share a replay when you do this build, Monk? Its much easier to se the timings in a replay. (I dont got the ticket to se the GSTL-matches so...)
Thx!
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On December 10 2011 23:42 BoCCan wrote:
I'v been trying this build fomr some time now, but I cant get the robo-timing. Can you share a replay when you do this build, Monk? Its much easier to se the timings in a replay. (I dont got the ticket to se the GSTL-matches so...)
Thx!
There you go
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Just curious where you get the robo bay timing from, as in almost all of his games the 3 gates and the bay are dropped at the same time.
Also whats your take on Heros robo-less version of this build? He usually takes a third and then goes into double robo.
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On December 11 2011 02:21 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Just curious where you get the robo bay timing from, as in almost all of his games the 3 gates and the bay are dropped at the same time.
Also whats your take on Heros robo-less version of this build? He usually takes a third and then goes into double robo.
Robo bay timing comes from an average of the first 5 game timings, but as I said, you shouldn't take that timing too seriously.
Link me a vod/replay of Hero's build. I don't know the exact build off the top of my head.
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On December 11 2011 02:23 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 02:21 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Just curious where you get the robo bay timing from, as in almost all of his games the 3 gates and the bay are dropped at the same time.
Also whats your take on Heros robo-less version of this build? He usually takes a third and then goes into double robo. Robo bay timing comes from an average of the first 5 game timings, but as I said, you shouldn't take that timing too seriously. Link me a vod/replay of Hero's build. I don't know the exact build off the top of my head.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)MVPTEAM_vs_(P)LiquidHerO/16451
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)LiquidHerO_vs_(T)EGPuMa/16452 - He opens 15 nexus, but it's the same idea
EDIT: there are many more... i cant actually think of many games (on stream or in tournament) where hero does get a robo for the double forge build i think he did it nasl finals once and dh finals
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On December 11 2011 03:06 sjschmidt93 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 02:23 NrGmonk wrote:On December 11 2011 02:21 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Just curious where you get the robo bay timing from, as in almost all of his games the 3 gates and the bay are dropped at the same time.
Also whats your take on Heros robo-less version of this build? He usually takes a third and then goes into double robo. Robo bay timing comes from an average of the first 5 game timings, but as I said, you shouldn't take that timing too seriously. Link me a vod/replay of Hero's build. I don't know the exact build off the top of my head. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)MVPTEAM_vs_(P)LiquidHerO/16451http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)LiquidHerO_vs_(T)EGPuMa/16452 - He opens 15 nexus, but it's the same idea
Game 1 is perfectly fine. He uses pressure instead of an obs to scout his opponent.
Game 2 normally would be risky to things like ghost timings or marine tank. The econ advantage from 15 nexus helps against ghost timings, but marine tank pushes would be hard if you do this build blindly. Hero, however, does spot a marurder pretty quickly, but not before somewhat committing to the build.
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Just a note, I have been doing this style since Creator really showed how powerful it was in the GSL. What everyone seems to forget is that he cuts probes! I know to most higher level players cutting probes when you hit around 50 on 2 bases is common knowledge but people still neglect to say this. Watch the production tab. In at least 2 of the games he cut probes somewhere between 48-52 and then chronoed out probes when on 3 bases.
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Very good point with archons vs storm. I've been playing like this with storm instead of archons, and never realized how storm isn't taking advantage of my upgrades.
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On December 12 2011 14:48 Easytouch1500 wrote:
Just a note, I have been doing this style since Creator really showed how powerful it was in the GSL. What everyone seems to forget is that he cuts probes! I know to most higher level players cutting probes when you hit around 50 on 2 bases is common knowledge but people still neglect to say this. Watch the production tab. In at least 2 of the games he cut probes somewhere between 48-52 and then chronoed out probes when on 3 bases.
Thank you very much about this. I really needed to ear it from somebody because I wasn't sure about it
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cant wait for the MC's 1 gate FE guide
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I don't really have much to say other than I have a 100% win ratio pvt after using this guide for the past week. I approve. My protoss account is very happy.
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Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
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On December 14 2011 06:25 TG Manny wrote:
Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
Sure, but if you get drops that fast, you will have to sacrifice a lot in safety. For example, fewer bunkers, bio units, and no eng bay for dts. In addition, your drops have to do a lot of damage to stay even, because if you delay upgrades for too long, you will be horribly behind. One base drop plays are a whole different issue all together and this guide basically has nothing to do with them.
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On December 12 2011 15:08 CecilSunkure wrote:
Very good point with archons vs storm. I've been playing like this with storm instead of archons, and never realized how storm isn't taking advantage of my upgrades.
just a comment, its still good to have 3-4 templar for storms and the rest for archons, this way you still take advantage of the upgrades and the raw power of storming, also you add targets for emps that arent archons which means the archons themselves will theoretically survive longer as there are less emp's directed at them
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On December 14 2011 07:12 unit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 15:08 CecilSunkure wrote:
Very good point with archons vs storm. I've been playing like this with storm instead of archons, and never realized how storm isn't taking advantage of my upgrades. just a comment, its still good to have 3-4 templar for storms and the rest for archons, this way you still take advantage of the upgrades and the raw power of storming, also you add targets for emps that arent archons which means the archons themselves will theoretically survive longer as there are less emp's directed at them
I already addressed this and stated why I think templar aren't good in certain situations.
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Amazing guide. I was looking in getting back into SC2 and already picked the builds I wan to learn for PvP and PvZ. This one looks like an amazing macro build with everything I want in it (FE, ups, quicker obs, and tech switch on 3base). Would you suggest that this is a good beginner build or should I be looking elsewhere? (Not sure if this is a good place to ask the question either X_x).
TY again!!
(other builds are PvP 3stalker rush into 3gate robo, PvZ FFE into 6gate timing.)
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Do you think you could upload replays of you doing this build? Your guides are my #1 resource but it always bugs me how you always link progames and never replays of your own play. I understand the reasoning behind this but it is frustrating because for many progames there are no replays and it is much harder to glean information from a vod than it is from a replay. I think it would be very helpful to see some of your own replays of you performing this build. I understand that you are not a pro but I think it still would be helpful to see the decision making of high level player such as yourself.
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He posted a replay on page 5?
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On December 14 2011 06:50 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:25 TG Manny wrote:
Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
Sure, but if you get drops that fast, you will have to sacrifice a lot in safety. For example, fewer bunkers, bio units, and no eng bay for dts. In addition, your drops have to do a lot of damage to stay even, because if you delay upgrades for too long, you will be horribly behind. One base drop plays are a whole different issue all together and this guide basically has nothing to do with them.
This isn't one base, (2raxFE w/ 1 gas and continual dropping as soon as port finishes and gets reactor). By the time the drop lands I have another 16 marines at home + 8 from rush times and more medivacs with added production from more rax and upgrades starting after "first drop" stage completes usually. Granted, I am in gold, but I've seen people try to emulate this to no success vs 16 marines in-base and more at home.
I do realize that we don't get bunkers in this case, but we only bunker when we need to. I'm not questioning the viability of the build but I am wondering what the response is to early drop play with enough back home to keep an All-in move. Obv toss can scout it but just curious what reaction would be if they are taken by surprise.
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On December 15 2011 11:07 TG Manny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:50 NrGmonk wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 TG Manny wrote:
Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
Sure, but if you get drops that fast, you will have to sacrifice a lot in safety. For example, fewer bunkers, bio units, and no eng bay for dts. In addition, your drops have to do a lot of damage to stay even, because if you delay upgrades for too long, you will be horribly behind. One base drop plays are a whole different issue all together and this guide basically has nothing to do with them. This isn't one base, (2raxFE w/ 1 gas and continual dropping as soon as port finishes and gets reactor). By the time the drop lands I have another 16 marines at home + 8 from rush times and more medivacs with added production from more rax and upgrades starting after "first drop" stage completes usually. Granted, I am in gold, but I've seen people try to emulate this to no success vs 16 marines in-base and more at home. I do realize that we don't get bunkers in this case, but we only bunker when we need to. I'm not questioning the viability of the build but I am wondering what the response is to early drop play with enough back home to keep an All-in move. Obv toss can scout it but just curious what reaction would be if they are taken by surprise.
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This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army.
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On December 15 2011 11:07 TG Manny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:50 NrGmonk wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 TG Manny wrote:
Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
Sure, but if you get drops that fast, you will have to sacrifice a lot in safety. For example, fewer bunkers, bio units, and no eng bay for dts. In addition, your drops have to do a lot of damage to stay even, because if you delay upgrades for too long, you will be horribly behind. One base drop plays are a whole different issue all together and this guide basically has nothing to do with them. This isn't one base, (2raxFE w/ 1 gas and continual dropping as soon as port finishes and gets reactor). By the time the drop lands I have another 16 marines at home + 8 from rush times and more medivacs with added production from more rax and upgrades starting after "first drop" stage completes usually. Granted, I am in gold, but I've seen people try to emulate this to no success vs 16 marines in-base and more at home. I do realize that we don't get bunkers in this case, but we only bunker when we need to. I'm not questioning the viability of the build but I am wondering what the response is to early drop play with enough back home to keep an All-in move. Obv toss can scout it but just curious what reaction would be if they are taken by surprise.
I know you were mainly not talking about 1 base play. That last sentence was in reference to your 2nd paragraph.
My whole point is that the build you describe is not safe at all from ANY allin. If you tech to medivacs that fast, you will lose to any allin that hits before medivacs and you will lose to dts. If you move out with even 1 medivac at the time your medivacs pop out, you will die to an allin. You can't claim that you're safe from an allin just because you leave 16 marines at home.
The reaction to what you describe with this build is just normal drop defense.
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On December 15 2011 11:44 Belisarius wrote:
This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army.
If you have sentries left from early game, the micro is hitting 'g' 2 or 3 times, forcefielding what you can, a-moving, then warping in at your proxy pylon and a-moving those units, then chronoboosting your gates at home.
If you don't have sentries, you a-move, warp-in, a-move the reinforcements, then chronoboost gates.
In other words, there is no micro.
If you have some colossi, you pretty much just a-move those too, but you do want to make sure it's far enough forward to get a shot off before the bio starts kiting your zealots.
If you also have blink stalkers in your composition, you actually have to micro so that they kill vikings and medivacs, and the injured stalkers bilnk to the back.
Don't be like me and a-move 15 times in a row and on click #15, accidentally hit your own archon to 1-shot it. You'd be surprised how badly you lose a fight if you pull all of your charging zealots off their targets to focus fire your archons.
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On December 15 2011 11:57 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:44 Belisarius wrote:
This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army. If you have sentries left from early game, the micro is hitting 'g' 2 or 3 times, forcefielding what you can, a-moving, then warping in at your proxy pylon and a-moving those units, then chronoboosting your gates at home. If you don't have sentries, you a-move, warp-in, a-move the reinforcements, then chronoboost gates. In other words, there is no micro. If you have some colossi, you pretty much just a-move those too, but you do want to make sure it's far enough forward to get a shot off before the bio starts kiting your zealots. If you also have blink stalkers in your composition, you actually have to micro so that they kill vikings and medivacs, and the injured stalkers bilnk to the back. Don't be like me and a-move 15 times in a row and on click #15, accidentally hit your own archon to 1-shot it. You'd be surprised how badly you lose a fight if you pull all of your charging zealots off their targets to focus fire your archons.
Thanks. And that works okay? I just feel like bio can kite an a-move protoss all day and get off completely free. I guess zealots do live a pretty long time with an armour advantage. Do you ever disable charge to keep the fight closer to your damage dealers?
Also lol, yes, I've done that, usually on my way back from chronoing gates. Charging zealots make such a pretty flower orbiting around my ball...
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Thanks a lot for the guide! Lately PvT has been my toughest matchup (though it is my favorite), and have been trying to work both this guide and your other guide on MC's 1gate FE into my standard play.
Do you think you could upload/post more of your own replays doing both builds (ideally with varying reactions to different T builds that you see). I watched all the vods and have a hard time still deciphering everything thats going on. I find it much more helpful analyzing replays than the vods where I can't control the camera.
Thanks a lot again for your excellent guide!
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On December 15 2011 12:07 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:57 kcdc wrote:On December 15 2011 11:44 Belisarius wrote:
This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army. If you have sentries left from early game, the micro is hitting 'g' 2 or 3 times, forcefielding what you can, a-moving, then warping in at your proxy pylon and a-moving those units, then chronoboosting your gates at home. If you don't have sentries, you a-move, warp-in, a-move the reinforcements, then chronoboost gates. In other words, there is no micro. If you have some colossi, you pretty much just a-move those too, but you do want to make sure it's far enough forward to get a shot off before the bio starts kiting your zealots. If you also have blink stalkers in your composition, you actually have to micro so that they kill vikings and medivacs, and the injured stalkers bilnk to the back. Don't be like me and a-move 15 times in a row and on click #15, accidentally hit your own archon to 1-shot it. You'd be surprised how badly you lose a fight if you pull all of your charging zealots off their targets to focus fire your archons. Thanks. And that works okay? I just feel like bio can kite an a-move protoss all day and get off completely free. I guess zealots do live a pretty long time with an armour advantage. Do you ever disable charge to keep the fight closer to your damage dealers? Also lol, yes, I've done that, usually on my way back from chronoing gates. Charging zealots make such a pretty flower orbiting around my ball...
It works okay, not great. You're going to get kited, but your composition is super-tanky and it's pretty fast. Your archons and blink stalkers will at least be able to clear up the medivacs and vikings, and the bio will take heavy damage from stim and charge hits. Kiting happens, but it's not that deadly as long as you can keep the medivac count low.
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This build is so awesome. PVT is now my favorite matchup. This combined with the 1gate expo opener has solved all of my PVT problems, when I lose a game now it is because I'm getting outplayed, which is how I like to lose.
My favorite TL guide so far.
Thanks very much.
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When do you think is the best time to start immortal production depending on what they are doing of course.
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Ok so I've been playing this build a bit more lately and some things I'm noticing:
-Archon's unit size is so large and their range is so short that there is rarely ever a scenario where you will have more than 3 Archons actually DPS'ing at one time. Archons are good tanks but not cost efficient ones and their strength is really in their splash damage so I question ever having the need to have more than 3 Archons in a maxed army.
-If you are advocating pushing your upgrade advantage and not waiting for storm, why not make a Dark Shrine instead? It takes an extra 50 seconds to build, but it gives you nice map/expo control options as well as being excellent for drop defense. You can mix in DTs in your army to force additional scans, and the difference in cost of morphing an Archon b/w HT and DT is not a big deal especially considering my point above about only mixing a few Archons in your army. I think the map/expo control point is particularly important because how I am seeing smart Terrans react to double forge builds is to attempt to outmacro the Protoss player. You will at points have a stronger army but the Terran's ability to turtle with PFs is unmatched.
-And going along the above 2 points, even if you do choose to go stormless HT, it is still worth it to keep 1 or 2 in your army strictly for feedback purposes, rather than make an additional Archon over 3 IMO. While HT doesn't give the map/expo control of DTs, feedback is also a very good vs drops.
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On December 24 2011 05:20 Easytouch1500 wrote:
When do you think is the best time to start immortal production depending on what they are doing of course.
I could go into more detail about it, but it honestly either rarely matters or would be very situation specific. Just get them whenever at a safe time depending on the game.
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do you think placing down stargate to get pheonix instead of getting twilight --> templar is a viable choice? TSL protoss used to to these kind of build with collosus and phoenix as the core units with gateway army supplement them. It''s a similar build up untill the twilight part
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Really good guide, I've been doing a double forge gateway-favoured style of PvT for a while now and it really works for me, I've been trying some things out with DT's as well (alongside double forge) but nothing really noteworthy to add. Have you tried them out?
I agree about templar vs archons, but I still like to get 1 templar at each base (usually 3, maybe 4) before maxing to both gather energy and feedback drops. I research storm as I'm maxed (and also get all the extra gateways to go to 16-20+). Hotkey them to say, 0, just so that later one once our epic engagement has happened, and I need to deal the finishing blow (and/or he's caught up in upgrades), I have 3 or 4 full energy templar back home to gather up. You can optionally warp-in another 3-4 templar to take their place as drop defence and to gather energy for another round later, but at that point in the game they are likely unnecessary and better used for archons.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 30 2011 20:55 brachester wrote:
do you think placing down stargate to get pheonix instead of getting twilight --> templar is a viable choice? TSL protoss used to to these kind of build with collosus and phoenix as the core units with gateway army supplement them. It''s a similar build up untill the twilight part
Don't really see how it's possible to skip the twilight. You need it to get +2 upgrades. Also, upgrades don't synergize well with phoenix. You probably saw a completely different build.
On December 31 2011 00:39 BlindSC2 wrote:
Really good guide, I've been doing a double forge gateway-favoured style of PvT for a while now and it really works for me, I've been trying some things out with DT's as well (alongside double forge) but nothing really noteworthy to add. Have you tried them out?
No I have not.
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What do you do if a terran does a verry late transition? I am talking about BC or later than 2 base mech switch.
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is this style viable with MC 1 Gate FE Opening?
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im always in trouble when i do this strat when the Terran decides to push me about 8min , with 30marines , at 8min marks my +1 Attack and +1 Armor are not finish , and i dont have the time to throw down cannons at my mineral , i dont how can i adaptive this build against 30marines timing attack.
Here the replay : http://www.sctemple.com/replay/149787/
thx for help
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On January 02 2012 19:08 wardou wrote:
is this style viable with MC 1 Gate FE Opening?
Yes. Creator has 1 Gate FEd in most games I've seen him play.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 03 2012 00:44 wardou wrote:im always in trouble when i do this strat when the Terran decides to push me about 8min , with 30marines , at 8min marks my +1 Attack and +1 Armor are not finish , and i dont have the time to throw down cannons at my mineral , i dont how can i adaptive this build against 30marines timing attack. Here the replay : http://www.sctemple.com/replay/149787/thx for help
It came down to a few things:
Not hitting every warpin cycle possible
Getting your first observer killed
Not kiting at all with stalkers
Getting gas too early-as a result you had too many sentries and not enough mineral-heavy, damage dealing units.
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Any ideas of what to transition into when playing against mech. I've seen the strat. that day9 did a daily on recently. It opens with banshee harass into thor tank with hellions or something like that.
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On January 08 2012 17:36 LeakyBucket wrote:
Any ideas of what to transition into when playing against mech. I've seen the strat. that day9 did a daily on recently. It opens with banshee harass into thor tank with hellions or something like that.
well FFE works well into Stargate/robo hybrids like pheonix immortal, the cannons hold off harrass while pheonixes come out and then with 5-6 pheonixes you can harrass same as having mutas, and with hellion and banshee opennings they often skimp on marines, allowing you to pick them off and delay alot of stuff especially the higher tech.
Immortals work well vs mech if positioned well and you can eliminate some of the threat of tank fire on the way in (via pheonix) so FFE->pheonix counter harrass-> pheonix immortal gateway makes logical sense, you would never go collosus vs mech as thor/banshee/viking/tank wrecks collosus if you have two of the four. So immortal/obs from robo while you get pheonixes and gateway units as fodder, obviously working in archon/HT as the game transitions to 3 or 4 base, since the AOE is great vs hellion,
also remember warp prism + sentries is an amazing way to slow mech armies, dropping sentries and forcefielding a terran mech army FORCES a siege for 5-10 seconds while they get the thors to crush the fields.
speed upgrades are very important vs mech, obs speed and warp prism speed, allowing you to harrass well and defend and scout quickly.
Alternately getting DTs after a FFE would work to harrass and secure a third while terran is getting their second/production provided you invest in enough cannons on each base to beat the banshees.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 08 2012 17:54 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 17:36 LeakyBucket wrote:
Any ideas of what to transition into when playing against mech. I've seen the strat. that day9 did a daily on recently. It opens with banshee harass into thor tank with hellions or something like that. well FFE works well into Stargate/robo hybrids like pheonix immortal, the cannons hold off harrass while pheonixes come out and then with 5-6 pheonixes you can harrass same as having mutas, and with hellion and banshee opennings they often skimp on marines, allowing you to pick them off and delay alot of stuff especially the higher tech. Immortals work well vs mech if positioned well and you can eliminate some of the threat of tank fire on the way in (via pheonix) so FFE->pheonix counter harrass-> pheonix immortal gateway makes logical sense, you would never go collosus vs mech as thor/banshee/viking/tank wrecks collosus if you have two of the four. So immortal/obs from robo while you get pheonixes and gateway units as fodder, obviously working in archon/HT as the game transitions to 3 or 4 base, since the AOE is great vs hellion, also remember warp prism + sentries is an amazing way to slow mech armies, dropping sentries and forcefielding a terran mech army FORCES a siege for 5-10 seconds while they get the thors to crush the fields. speed upgrades are very important vs mech, obs speed and warp prism speed, allowing you to harrass well and defend and scout quickly. Alternately getting DTs after a FFE would work to harrass and secure a third while terran is getting their second/production provided you invest in enough cannons on each base to beat the banshees.
wtf FFE vs terran?
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My mind combined the question about MC's FE and the question i quoted into one. and i answered as if it was one question, but FFE vs terran certainly is possible, especially in GSL maps, and especially vs players trying mech in TvP.
but yeah i definitely combined multiple questions into that answer sorry.
the overarching points are still valid however, DTs are strong against teching terrans, and Fast expansions allow you to be flexible with DTs and Pheonix immortal works well against terran mech, especially with how strong pheonixes are against the two common mech openners (banshee or hellion)
and i type FFE by reflex when i talk about fast expansions. it's a bad habit. EDIT: i think it's because i play zerg + protoss and so it's that matchup i'm the most familiar with.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 08 2012 18:10 PrinceXizor wrote:
My mind combined the question about MC's FE and the question i quoted into one. and i answered as if it was one question, but FFE vs terran certainly is possible, especially in GSL maps, and especially vs players trying mech in TvP.
but yeah i definitely combined multiple questions into that answer sorry.
the overarching points are still valid however, DTs are strong against teching terrans, and Fast expansions allow you to be flexible with DTs and Pheonix immortal works well against terran mech, especially with how strong pheonixes are against the two common mech openners (banshee or hellion)
and i type FFE by reflex when i talk about fast expansions. it's a bad habit.
Why would you forge fast expand versus terran when you can 15 nexus or 1 gate fe? And how do you know your opponent is going to mech beforehand? No terran is going to choose to either mech or bio just based on the fact that went FFE. Also dts are probably worse versus mech than bio simply because ravens are more common with mech, but that's really a moot point.
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On January 08 2012 18:20 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 18:10 PrinceXizor wrote:
My mind combined the question about MC's FE and the question i quoted into one. and i answered as if it was one question, but FFE vs terran certainly is possible, especially in GSL maps, and especially vs players trying mech in TvP.
but yeah i definitely combined multiple questions into that answer sorry.
the overarching points are still valid however, DTs are strong against teching terrans, and Fast expansions allow you to be flexible with DTs and Pheonix immortal works well against terran mech, especially with how strong pheonixes are against the two common mech openners (banshee or hellion)
and i type FFE by reflex when i talk about fast expansions. it's a bad habit. Why would you forge fast expand versus terran when you can 15 nexus or 1 gate fe? And how do you know your opponent is going to mech beforehand? No terran is going to choose to either mech or bio just based on the fact that went FFE. Also dts are probably worse versus mech than bio simply because ravens are more common with mech, but that's really a moot point.
You don't know your opponent is going mech before, stating that FFE works vs mech doesn't have to mean anything other than what was said. ^^ i wasn't endorsing blindly going FFE and hoping that Terran goes mech, it's good to know matchups for mediocre (currently) opennings, in case what is standard changes, or Terrans devise a way to pressure earlier so that FFE becomes needed.
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On January 09 2012 06:13 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 18:20 NrGmonk wrote:On January 08 2012 18:10 PrinceXizor wrote:
My mind combined the question about MC's FE and the question i quoted into one. and i answered as if it was one question, but FFE vs terran certainly is possible, especially in GSL maps, and especially vs players trying mech in TvP.
but yeah i definitely combined multiple questions into that answer sorry.
the overarching points are still valid however, DTs are strong against teching terrans, and Fast expansions allow you to be flexible with DTs and Pheonix immortal works well against terran mech, especially with how strong pheonixes are against the two common mech openners (banshee or hellion)
and i type FFE by reflex when i talk about fast expansions. it's a bad habit. Why would you forge fast expand versus terran when you can 15 nexus or 1 gate fe? And how do you know your opponent is going to mech beforehand? No terran is going to choose to either mech or bio just based on the fact that went FFE. Also dts are probably worse versus mech than bio simply because ravens are more common with mech, but that's really a moot point. You don't know your opponent is going mech before, stating that FFE works vs mech doesn't have to mean anything other than what was said. ^^ i wasn't endorsing blindly going FFE and hoping that Terran goes mech, it's good to know matchups for mediocre (currently) opennings, in case what is standard changes, or Terrans devise a way to pressure earlier so that FFE becomes needed.
I once scouted a Protoss who tried to FFE against my terran. Needless to say I won by the 6min mark.
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Ok I'm having some serious issues defending the midgame pushes ~10-11 mins w/ this build (4-rax, 2 medivac timing, ghost push, all of them) on maps with wide open naturals like metal. At this point in the game you are still relying on purely gateway units and don't have charge, aoe, and have just a 1/1 upgrade advantage and I lose almost every fight with equal sized armies.
The guide says to make 1-2 cannons which has worked for me on maps like shakuras where there is a ramp at the natural that is easily FF'ed, but on maps like metal it is easy to just micro around the cannons and kite your zealots back away from the cannons making the investment in cannons seemingly not worth it. Plus the lack of the ramp makes it a lot harder to FF to prevent kiting. Do I just need to execute the build better or is this just not a good build for maps like metal? I feel like it is smarter to get faster colossi on metal.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 10 2012 06:50 Skyro wrote:
Ok I'm having some serious issues defending the midgame pushes ~10-11 mins w/ this build (4-rax, 2 medivac timing, ghost push, all of them) on maps with wide open naturals like metal. At this point in the game you are still relying on purely gateway units and don't have charge, aoe, and have just a 1/1 upgrade advantage and I lose almost every fight with equal sized armies.
The guide says to make 1-2 cannons which has worked for me on maps like shakuras where there is a ramp at the natural that is easily FF'ed, but on maps like metal it is easy to just micro around the cannons and kite your zealots back away from the cannons making the investment in cannons seemingly not worth it. Plus the lack of the ramp makes it a lot harder to FF to prevent kiting. Do I just need to execute the build better or is this just not a good build for maps like metal? I feel like it is smarter to get faster colossi on metal.
Post a replay.
On a map like metal, you may have to put down 2 cannons when you'd otherwise make just 1 or 3 instead of 2.
Without watching a replay, the only advice I can give you is to get your natural gas later and really focus on not missing warpgate rounds. With these 2 things combined, you can get way more zealots to hold these types of pushes.
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I demand replays of this build to study, can we get them please ?
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EDIT: Removed.... I was commenting on food counts for this build, but I didn't follow it exactly.
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On January 10 2012 22:04 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 06:50 Skyro wrote:
Ok I'm having some serious issues defending the midgame pushes ~10-11 mins w/ this build (4-rax, 2 medivac timing, ghost push, all of them) on maps with wide open naturals like metal. At this point in the game you are still relying on purely gateway units and don't have charge, aoe, and have just a 1/1 upgrade advantage and I lose almost every fight with equal sized armies.
The guide says to make 1-2 cannons which has worked for me on maps like shakuras where there is a ramp at the natural that is easily FF'ed, but on maps like metal it is easy to just micro around the cannons and kite your zealots back away from the cannons making the investment in cannons seemingly not worth it. Plus the lack of the ramp makes it a lot harder to FF to prevent kiting. Do I just need to execute the build better or is this just not a good build for maps like metal? I feel like it is smarter to get faster colossi on metal. Post a replay. On a map like metal, you may have to put down 2 cannons when you'd otherwise make just 1 or 3 instead of 2. Without watching a replay, the only advice I can give you is to get your natural gas later and really focus on not missing warpgate rounds. With these 2 things combined, you can get way more zealots to hold these types of pushes.
Yeah I would've posted replays but I'd rather not be embarassed lol. I'm pretty good at spotting my mistakes and where I slipped on macro etc. etc. my question was more about if it was possible to hold. It feels to me that the margin of error is quite slim since you are investing so much into tech and are relying on what is essentially 3 gateways worth of production until ~10 mins.
To hold you pretty much have to get good FFs off to prevent kiting right? I don't see how it is possible to (cost effectively) hold w/o getting good FFs off.
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I have the same issue as Skyro, and it seems like a lot of HerO's vods (and other Korean vods) don't have the kind of aggression that we're having trouble defending. I assume the reason is that their opponents have more respect for their force fields and don't want to risk losing their army (and basically the game) on the spot. HerO vs PuMa on Antiga from DH comes to mind... no shots fired until 150+ supply. It's also a lot harder to learn from a vod since it doesn't follow the P perspective (not to mention half the games are from old GSLs and I don't have a pass). It would really really help if there were some replays of this build against a Terran playing standard FE into bio, but with a lot of pokes/pressure in the 9-11 minute range where we only have pure gateway armies.
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Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely?
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Northern Ireland24543 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely?
It does kind of screw with the timings,
You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy.
This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely?
Sure you can skip the 2nd forge but then you're doing a different build with different timings. Also, if you decide to throw up additional gates instead of the extra forge to hold off early pushes such as the common stim/ghost push, your gates most likely won't be done in time. Truthfully, if you're heading for the infrastructure of an early robo into 2 forges into a twilight, I don't see much benefit of delaying the 2nd forge.
On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes.
I highly advise against getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop.
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On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop.
One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 13 2012 07:38 snively wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop. One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge?
Yea, against
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ok thanks, makes more sense now
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I've been doing this build since artosis wrote about it on his blog.
The only thing I die to is if the terran moves out with his first two medivacs and he drops in the back while attacking in the front. Any suggestion?
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Northern Ireland24543 Posts
On January 13 2012 08:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:38 snively wrote:On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop. One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge? Yea, against
Do you rely on your observers then to deal with banshee play? I used to get the single forge when I did the Huk 20 nexus build as my preferred one, 1 cannon in each mineral line to stop banshees swinging round and getting workers etc. That said that is a very early Nexus so perhaps the economic advantage kicks in soon enough to justify that extra infrastructure?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 14 2012 21:33 UmbeXCII wrote:
I've been doing this build since artosis wrote about it on his blog.
The only thing I die to is if the terran moves out with his first two medivacs and he drops in the back while attacking in the front. Any suggestion?
Post a replay.
Without a replay, I'd say use stalkers to stop the drops while you position your zealot/sentry at your front to deflect frontal attacks.
On January 14 2012 21:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:25 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 07:38 snively wrote:On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop. One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge? Yea, against Do you rely on your observers then to deal with banshee play? I used to get the single forge when I did the Huk 20 nexus build as my preferred one, 1 cannon in each mineral line to stop banshees swinging round and getting workers etc. That said that is a very early Nexus so perhaps the economic advantage kicks in soon enough to justify that extra infrastructure?
Yes, I rely on observers versus banshee.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 14 2012 23:42 WaZ wrote:
2 cannons at your front
cool story
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i'm high diamond but I'd like to see some replays master players.
i think i'm having some hiccups with my play here and there.
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[QUOTE]On December 08 2011 04:35 NrGmonk wrote:
[*]Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech.
I know this is probably beyond the scope of this build but do you have any suggestions on a style to play vs mech? All I can think of is mass immortals
For example, I have been against a unit composition of marines/thor/cloaked banshee/raven and always die to it. I normally go for the standard zealot heavy, sentry, stalker, colossus with maybe a couple HT.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 19 2012 12:57 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:35 NrGmonk wrote:
[*]Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech. I know this is probably beyond the scope of this build but do you have any suggestions on a style to play vs mech? All I can think of is mass immortals For example, I have been against a unit composition of marines/thor/cloaked banshee/raven and always die to it. I normally go for the standard zealot heavy, sentry, stalker, colossus with maybe a couple HT.
I do vastly different responses to different types of mech, marine tank, hellion tank, marine thor, marine thor banshee, mass air. Really depends on the exact unit comp. Vs marine/thor/choaked banshee/raven, I pretty much do exactly what Parting did vs Nada in the GSL vs that. Blink with 1 forge into chargelot templar immortal.
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finally got around to reading this. great guide, monk!
edit: sick reference section. can't wait to watch all them vods
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I find engaging in the late game is unreasonably difficult and that its best to turtle up with cannons and HT"s and deny as many terrran expansions as possible.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 22 2012 16:51 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
I find engaging in the late game is unreasonably difficult and that its best to turtle up with cannons and HT"s and deny as many terrran expansions as possible.
What does this have to do with this guide? O_O
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This is a great guide! I'm finding it a lot easier not dying to pushes from Terran, than when I was going for a fast Colossus!
One thing I had to note was that I never seem to get to scout my opponent in time (with my observer, damn thing is so slow  ) to deviate from the set timings that you posted (up until twilight council at least), is that just something I might get fortunate with on smaller maps, or am I doing something wrong?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 22 2012 18:47 Chelch wrote:This is a great guide! I'm finding it a lot easier not dying to pushes from Terran, than when I was going for a fast Colossus! One thing I had to note was that I never seem to get to scout my opponent in time (with my observer, damn thing is so slow ) to deviate from the set timings that you posted (up until twilight council at least), is that just something I might get fortunate with on smaller maps, or am I doing something wrong?
Don't follow that particular set of times so much. Even a minute divergence shouldn't matter too much. The particular game I took those times from was a game when the Protoss scouted FE and bio from the Terran before he took the gas.
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Thanks! I am really looking forward to using this later!
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I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
I am miles below you (low master ish), but if i do scout a fast third (9-10 ish minutes) i find i can get a faster colossus delaying gates 4-6 and then 2base allin when 2/2, 2 ranged colossi and charge (i skip blink) finish, much like Tyler used to do when double forge builds first became popular. I suppose you could also do something similar if you go for storm instead of colossus.
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On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
I was playing a bunch of practice games yesterday with a clanmate and he was doing the same thing (fast 3rd cc, double engi), and it is simply terrans playing off the protoss' passivity with this double forge build. It kind of opened my eyes a bit on having to mix in some 6/7 gate pushes to punish this, especially vs gasless 1-rax FEs and/or on maps with wide open naturals.
The other option that I haven't experimented with but have seen some pros start doing more and more regularly is the fast 3rd Nexus. Since I haven't really played around with it much I have no idea how safe/unsafe it is however, but it would effectively match the terran in economy if not surpass it. I really do not feel simply getting a slightly earlier 3rd after your obs scouts the 3rd CC is a good "counter" because of mules and the fact they will have a lot more workers than you from those 3 CC. It may be the best reaction for this particular build if you already laid down both forges but it is clearly not optimal.
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I think you should use food ranges instead of time, what happens if you lose a bunch of probes or units, do you still do everything at the same game time, delays in things will cause delays in other things be varying degrees.
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If you lose a bunch of probes/units you won't have the same food as you would if you were untouched and wanted to do a timing attack off that food number. If you're looking to do timing attacks it should be based off of when things finish, i.e. after my 2nd observer I build x or I attack, or when my 5th gateway is finished I start.... things like that.
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On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem.
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On January 25 2012 02:04 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? I was playing a bunch of practice games yesterday with a clanmate and he was doing the same thing (fast 3rd cc, double engi), and it is simply terrans playing off the protoss' passivity with this double forge build. It kind of opened my eyes a bit on having to mix in some 6/7 gate pushes to punish this, especially vs gasless 1-rax FEs and/or on maps with wide open naturals. The other option that I haven't experimented with but have seen some pros start doing more and more regularly is the fast 3rd Nexus. Since I haven't really played around with it much I have no idea how safe/unsafe it is however, but it would effectively match the terran in economy if not surpass it. I really do not feel simply getting a slightly earlier 3rd after your obs scouts the 3rd CC is a good "counter" because of mules and the fact they will have a lot more workers than you from those 3 CC. It may be the best reaction for this particular build if you already laid down both forges but it is clearly not optimal.
Yeah, super-greedy Terran has pushed me away from double forge builds (I've been experimenting with builds to try to pressure T because I've grown tired of defending all the time), but I'm wondering if other people have had the same problems against Terrans going double-expand double-upgrade, and if they've come across an adjustment from the double forge opening that works well.
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On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem.
Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
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On January 25 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 02:04 Skyro wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? I was playing a bunch of practice games yesterday with a clanmate and he was doing the same thing (fast 3rd cc, double engi), and it is simply terrans playing off the protoss' passivity with this double forge build. It kind of opened my eyes a bit on having to mix in some 6/7 gate pushes to punish this, especially vs gasless 1-rax FEs and/or on maps with wide open naturals. The other option that I haven't experimented with but have seen some pros start doing more and more regularly is the fast 3rd Nexus. Since I haven't really played around with it much I have no idea how safe/unsafe it is however, but it would effectively match the terran in economy if not surpass it. I really do not feel simply getting a slightly earlier 3rd after your obs scouts the 3rd CC is a good "counter" because of mules and the fact they will have a lot more workers than you from those 3 CC. It may be the best reaction for this particular build if you already laid down both forges but it is clearly not optimal. Yeah, super-greedy Terran has pushed me away from double forge builds (I've been experimenting with builds to try to pressure T because I've grown tired of defending all the time), but I'm wondering if other people have had the same problems against Terrans going double-expand double-upgrade, and if they've come across an adjustment from the double forge opening that works well.
I mentioned this in that other thread that you made (I think that was you) about mid-game PvT timings, but I feel the double forge style is still ok on certain maps vs gasless 1-rax FEs by going twilight before robo and getting a faster (~9 min) Blink. Using your first Obs you can blink into their main and do quite a bit of damage if they went for a super greedy 3 CC style, essentially equalizing the game if not pulling ahead outright. This is particularly effective on maps like Antiga and Metal. You also have the option of just skipping the forges and going for more gates and utilizing warp-ins from a low-ground pylon for a more all-in version.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
I'll tell you Creator's response to this. This happened to him in Creator vs ? in the KSL on Daybreak. The "?" is because I don't remember who he played against. Double expand + double upgrade is an extremely blind "soft" counter to this build. If you get double ups that early, you won't be able to survive things such as colossi allins. Anyways, his response is to take a 3rd immediately before gates 4-6. Then, throw down robo bay and gates 4-6 before the 2nd immortal. The biggest mistake people make is overestimating the Terran's army between around 10 mins and 14 mins and then underestimating it after that. The terran won't be able to pressure you so you can cut a lot of units before 14 mins. However, after that time range, you will be in a huge supply deficit, so you need some form of AoE to cover for that. Also, because of the extremely delayed starport after 3rd cc and double eng bay, he'll have trouble making both enough medivac/viking. He can make a 2nd starport, but that's assuming he scouts colossi in time.
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Yeah, that's pretty similar to what I've been doing. I've still been crushed pretty much every time I've happened into that BO draw, but I also don't have a lot of practice in the situation and I'm sure I'm not doing it optimally.
Anyway, it seems like double expand + double upgrade is a pretty decent counter to this double forge style. It's playable for P (not like skipping robo vs cloaked banshees), but I think T should win if both sides play equally well.
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On January 25 2012 01:41 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? I am miles below you (low master ish), but if i do scout a fast third (9-10 ish minutes) i find i can get a faster colossus delaying gates 4-6 and then 2base allin when 2/2, 2 ranged colossi and charge (i skip blink) finish, much like Tyler used to do when double forge builds first became popular. I suppose you could also do something similar if you go for storm instead of colossus.
What are the reasons for Creator not doing this?
I just want to generate discussion on the idea of calling the Terran on HIS greed. It seems this soft counter is based on being even greedier than the toss and that should open a window to call him on this right?
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It takes a long time to get 2/2, range, charge and 3 colossi, and the attack is pretty all-in since you can't expand behind it well (or you get picked apart by drops). Terran's starport tech is delayed, but that attack is late enough that Terran should have a couple medivacs and vikings and they should be able to defend.
The double forge build sacrifices the timing window where the double expand Terran is weakest, so P takes a BO disadvantage.
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On January 25 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem. Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
if you cannon your front while going for storm you can usually hold off an attack with archons and cannons, assuming you get some good forcefields and you deflected terran harrassment well. i'll try to find the VODs for the games that brought me to this conclusion.
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So is there a tell that should signal that the T is going that in time to deviate?
and
Is there a tell in our build that the Terran can spot early enough that he can reactivly do the fast 3d + double eng?
IF the answer is no to both then it is a true soft counter that can only be done blindly or for reasons other than a reactive play.
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On January 25 2012 10:29 vaderseven wrote:
So is there a tell that should signal that the T is going that in time to deviate?
and
Is there a tell in our build that the Terran can spot early enough that he can reactivly do the fast 3d + double eng?
IF the answer is no to both then it is a true soft counter that can only be done blindly or for reasons other than a reactive play.
Terrans 3rd expand can be read from when they take their 3rd gas. if they take their third gas quickly, they will end up expanding a full minute later. so if you can try to deny as much scouting until you notice them getting their third gas, that gives you time to keep ahead of their third. the only ways i can think of this are really nice forcefields, or very very strong stalker micro, to push back marines and catch scouts.
similar to the way dragoons w/ range are used in PvT in BW, but less forgiving because of the lack of range upgrade.
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On January 25 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem. Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
I've seen hero/mc do this recently.
In the first replay hero does a standardish 1gate expand, and drops a twilight instead of robo and goes for blink with ~8min 3rd.
http://drop.sc/97332 Hero
Here mc opens nexus first into 4gate, 9minute third into 8gate, then gets all his tech shortly after
http://drop.sc/94842 Mc
I've played around with the hero build a tad @ mid master, and I was pretty surprised what I could do with fast blink vs a standard 3rax/factory (after cc), e.g. outright winning the game with what I figured was a poke using some blink back. Haven't played vs a 4rax or anything yet though.
Hope i'm not derailing from the topic, creator prime is still my favorite/standard PvT
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On January 25 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem. Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
It is the other way around for me: blink-charge works great if the terran separates his army and tries to drop you, but frontal attacks are harder to hold. Especially that 4 medivac stim timing (any pro-level tips on unit comp/micro are welcome).
But anyway, here's what you asked for:
3-4 gate > Twilight (blink first) > 3rd nexus > 3-4 extra gates > eventually HT, forges, etc. Make sure you feign pressure and/or have spotting pylons/patrolling probes.
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Thanks for the great guide!
What would be a good way to throw in a warp prism while getting upgrades? When is the good to time to build it?
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What do you think about having the same build up to @100% Twilight council, and getting a templar archives right after starting 2-2 upgrades and charge. Also, with more immortal production. Then adding 5 more gateways, then doing an immortal bust/ chargelot archon all in with 2-2 (or maybe timing push?).
I guess if you added cannons to mineral lines + took a 3rd, you could then go into colossus tech +3-3 and have the same composition, but that is a lot of minerals of a potentially strong all in.
I want to ask you this, because it works for me, but I'm not good. Do you think using this build order similar to the creatorprime build order is viable up at higher levels for an all in? Is this all in viable at all regardless of build order? And also, do you think that making this into a timing attack makes sense or is it better just to all in with this?
Also, I would like to say that I really like creator prime pvt following the OP.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 27 2012 12:38 Contractor wrote:
What do you think about having the same build up to @100% Twilight council, and getting a templar archives right after starting 2-2 upgrades and charge. Also, with more immortal production. Then adding 5 more gateways, then doing an immortal bust/ chargelot archon all in with 2-2 (or maybe timing push?).
I guess if you added cannons to mineral lines + took a 3rd, you could then go into colossus tech +3-3 and have the same composition, but that is a lot of minerals of a potentially strong all in.
I want to ask you this, because it works for me, but I'm not good. Do you think using this build order similar to the creatorprime build order is viable up at higher levels for an all in? Is this all in viable at all regardless of build order? And also, do you think that making this into a timing attack makes sense or is it better just to all in with this?
Also, I would like to say that I really like creator prime pvt following the OP.
Don't have experience with this, so I don't want to comment too much, but I'd say your suggested allin on 2 base isn't very lean. You're suggesting getting immortals, blink, charge, and a templar archives. Also, but the time you allin with all of that, terran's 3rd base will have kicked in enough for it to pay off.
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United States8476 Posts
Added some more vods. There are now 16 instances of this build used in the pro scene. I found the vods to 14 of them.
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On February 11 2012 21:41 NrGmonk wrote:
Added some more vods. There are now 16 instances of this build used in the pro scene. I found the vods to 14 of them.
Why are you so amazing? Thanks ♥
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Does anyone have any replays with this style? I learn better from reps than vods.
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Very interesting. Good post.
However, I think that gateway/templar style is much more solid than collosus albeit more difficult to pull off.
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what irks me about this build is it seems off a 1 gate expand taking a third this late means with constant probe production there is a period where you're totally oversaturated on two bases. Does anybody cut probes for a bit to pump out more units until they start their third?
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United States8476 Posts
On February 23 2012 21:16 ThePianoDentist wrote:
what irks me about this build is it seems off a 1 gate expand taking a third this late means with constant probe production there is a period where you're totally oversaturated on two bases. Does anybody cut probes for a bit to pump out more units until they start their third?
Yes, you cut probes around 55 until your take your 3rd.
Also, added 2 more games to the OP.
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United States8476 Posts
Added some more games to the OP. This build is now by far the most used PvT build in the korean proscene with a record of 16-5(76%).
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Interesting. I manage to make this build suck big time. Losing to goldies while having supply and upgrade advantage and after winning most engagements + denying drops. How bad am I?
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Anybody has anymore replays? Please contribute if you do. I would really love to dissect and learn this build in sc2gears.
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On February 25 2012 05:33 habermas wrote:
Interesting. I manage to make this build suck big time. Losing to goldies while having supply and upgrade advantage and after winning most engagements + denying drops. How bad am I?
Post a replay and we might be able to tell you.
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typo:
+ Show Spoiler +Robo usage: Creator/Genius will always make 2 observers and then 2 immortals. Do not go over 2 immortals with this build. I have tried to incorporate 3 immortals previous in this build and to do that, you will have to cut something, either fewer zealots, fewer stalkers, or later gateways. For example, one time I made 3 immortals and thus only had 3 stalkers instead of the usual 6 to deny After much testing myself, I’ve determined 2 to be the perfect number of immortals and creator apparently agrees. After your 2nd immortal and before your first colossi, you will have some free robo time. Feel free to get a 3rd observer if you deem it worth it.
Think you forgot the word drops.
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Hmm In the past (I'm highish masters) I've done a col.killer type build where I go quick colossus and double forge, first time trying this build.
There seems to be a very scary timing around 12:00 minutes after a no gas FE where the terran has a TON of units (MM), 2-4+ medivacs, and you don't have colossus. It just seems so much eaiser to hold this off with quicker colossus (in the past I've never had a problem with it. colossus with range just lol all over it). How do you hold this off cost efficiently if they engage you before you have colossus?
My experience was, terran got a fast third (most do now), and still hit this timing with a bunch of units. I had to cancel my third and wait for my colossus to come out, which isn't something i'de like to do..
Heres the replay mainly so you can see the timing I was talking about, I still managed to win because I kept attacking with an upgrade advantage.
http://drop.sc/124779
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United States8476 Posts
On March 02 2012 13:07 AegiS_ wrote:Hmm In the past (I'm highish masters) I've done a col.killer type build where I go quick colossus and double forge, first time trying this build. There seems to be a very scary timing around 12:00 minutes after a no gas FE where the terran has a TON of units (MM), 2-4+ medivacs, and you don't have colossus. It just seems so much eaiser to hold this off with quicker colossus (in the past I've never had a problem with it. colossus with range just lol all over it). How do you hold this off cost efficiently if they engage you before you have colossus? My experience was, terran got a fast third (most do now), and still hit this timing with a bunch of units. I had to cancel my third and wait for my colossus to come out, which isn't something i'de like to do.. Heres the replay mainly so you can see the timing I was talking about, I still managed to win because I kept attacking with an upgrade advantage. http://drop.sc/124779
I actually write about what to do vs a fast 3rd in my guide. Versus a fast 3rd, you want to cut your 4th/5th/6th gateway in favor of a faster 3rd and faster robo bay for colossi. Cut all gateway units until you get all of that up and consider skipping your 2nd immortal. By the time he hits you with 2 medivacs, you should have 1 colossi coming out. A decent example of this is Creator vs Kas in my vods section and also I believe Creator vs Jjakji in the KSL.
Your positioning was also quite bad in that particular game when he attacked your 3rd.
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TY for this build ♥
I'm mid-masters on the NA server. Just tried it out, first game absolutely CRUSHED my opponent even with crappy macro (3 base 6 gate FTW). I've never been able to kill drop after drop like that--blink w/ ups is great.
IMHO, storm is definitely worth it. While it's true that HT are a bit of a waste if you open fast ups, HTs force your opponent to transfer into ghosts, which stop them from massing vikings. At a certain point, colossus become completely obsolete, meaning your 1300/1000 investment now gets 1 shot off before evaporating. HTs will always be useful, especially if your opponent commits to countering your colossus.
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On March 07 2012 14:55 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 13:07 AegiS_ wrote:Hmm In the past (I'm highish masters) I've done a col.killer type build where I go quick colossus and double forge, first time trying this build. There seems to be a very scary timing around 12:00 minutes after a no gas FE where the terran has a TON of units (MM), 2-4+ medivacs, and you don't have colossus. It just seems so much eaiser to hold this off with quicker colossus (in the past I've never had a problem with it. colossus with range just lol all over it). How do you hold this off cost efficiently if they engage you before you have colossus? My experience was, terran got a fast third (most do now), and still hit this timing with a bunch of units. I had to cancel my third and wait for my colossus to come out, which isn't something i'de like to do.. Heres the replay mainly so you can see the timing I was talking about, I still managed to win because I kept attacking with an upgrade advantage. http://drop.sc/124779 I actually write about what to do vs a fast 3rd in my guide. Versus a fast 3rd, you want to cut your 4th/5th/6th gateway in favor of a faster 3rd and faster robo bay for colossi. Cut all gateway units until you get all of that up and consider skipping your 2nd immortal. By the time he hits you with 2 medivacs, you should have 1 colossi coming out. A decent example of this is Creator vs Kas in my vods section and also I believe Creator vs Jjakji in the KSL. Your positioning was also quite bad in that particular game when he attacked your 3rd.
Thanks for the reply.
Just wanted to ask a quick question about the build, do you/ Creator (and any other pro players) ever go for a Dark Shrine instead of the Templar Archives (soon after you get your 3rd)? Since you don't get storm until a bit later and can still make archons w/ them. Mainly because of the map control they bring allowing you to expand to further expos as you can clean up drops with Warped-in DT's that you couldn't with blink stalkers. I also find if I don't go DT's the terran is allowed too much map control and get's up too many bases (including hiding planetary's, which you can't really prevent w/out DT's).
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On March 08 2012 09:09 HungryGeKo wrote:
TY for this build ♥
I'm mid-masters on the NA server. Just tried it out, first game absolutely CRUSHED my opponent even with crappy macro (3 base 6 gate FTW). I've never been able to kill drop after drop like that--blink w/ ups is great.
IMHO, storm is definitely worth it. While it's true that HT are a bit of a waste if you open fast ups, HTs force your opponent to transfer into ghosts, which stop them from massing vikings. At a certain point, colossus become completely obsolete, meaning your 1300/1000 investment now gets 1 shot off before evaporating. HTs will always be useful, especially if your opponent commits to countering your colossus.
While I'm not going to say whether fast storm or archon is a better choice, because I think it depends largely on the map and playstyle of the terran, all terrans will tech to ghosts by that point. In supply numbers past ~120 the threat of sentries and archons is more than enough to force ghosts anyways. Actually, if I see colossus into storm I sometimes delay ghosts a bit and get the energy upgrade, and occasionally a 2nd port to squeeze out a few more medivacs before I need ghosts.
On another note, great thread Monk. This is by far the hardest style to play against TvP and the decision tree you made is very accurate. You heading down to princeton this weekend with the CSL crew?
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Just saw this style dominate against Boxer on dual sight in the gsl. Maybe it can be added to the long list of successful games from this style
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Hi, I just won a pvt attempting this style, but it felt like I had to cut forges and almost all tech but colossi just to survive the bio pushes. Did I play this style "reactively" or did I just abandon it altogether? What should I have done differently to follow this style more? I won, but felt like I got really off track with what I was trying to do with this build.
http://drop.sc/135640
Diamond protoss really struggling to improve
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United States8476 Posts
On March 18 2012 13:09 charliexjustice wrote:Hi, I just won a pvt attempting this style, but it felt like I had to cut forges and almost all tech but colossi just to survive the bio pushes. Did I play this style "reactively" or did I just abandon it altogether? What should I have done differently to follow this style more? I won, but felt like I got really off track with what I was trying to do with this build. http://drop.sc/135640Diamond protoss really struggling to improve
You didn't defend the bio push well. When dealing with late bio pushes, especially if you have a choke, you want to be more sentry heavy and much less stalker heavy. Stalkers are good at dealing with very early immediate threats, but because you knew he wasn't becoming because you had your tower, you were safe to produce sentries. Because you made so many stalkers, you were very weak to later pushes and that's why you felt so threatened and had to deviate so much.
Basically, you deviated completely from the Creatorprime build. The Creatorprime build is a very specific build that relies on specific timings. What you did was a colossi build with forges added on later.
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On March 19 2012 02:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 13:09 charliexjustice wrote:Hi, I just won a pvt attempting this style, but it felt like I had to cut forges and almost all tech but colossi just to survive the bio pushes. Did I play this style "reactively" or did I just abandon it altogether? What should I have done differently to follow this style more? I won, but felt like I got really off track with what I was trying to do with this build. http://drop.sc/135640Diamond protoss really struggling to improve You didn't defend the bio push well. When dealing with late bio pushes, especially if you have a choke, you want to be more sentry heavy and much less stalker heavy. Stalkers are good at dealing with very early immediate threats, but because you knew he wasn't becoming because you had your tower, you were safe to produce sentries. Because you made so many stalkers, you were very weak to later pushes and that's why you felt so threatened and had to deviate so much. Basically, you deviated completely from the Creatorprime build. The Creatorprime build is a very specific build that relies on specific timings. What you did was a colossi build with forges added on later.
Thank you very much monk. That's what I w as afraid of. So, in order to properly execute this build, I need to get sentries instead of stalkers if I see there is no early push coming?
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United States8476 Posts
On March 19 2012 11:42 charliexjustice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 02:59 NrGmonk wrote:On March 18 2012 13:09 charliexjustice wrote:Hi, I just won a pvt attempting this style, but it felt like I had to cut forges and almost all tech but colossi just to survive the bio pushes. Did I play this style "reactively" or did I just abandon it altogether? What should I have done differently to follow this style more? I won, but felt like I got really off track with what I was trying to do with this build. http://drop.sc/135640Diamond protoss really struggling to improve You didn't defend the bio push well. When dealing with late bio pushes, especially if you have a choke, you want to be more sentry heavy and much less stalker heavy. Stalkers are good at dealing with very early immediate threats, but because you knew he wasn't becoming because you had your tower, you were safe to produce sentries. Because you made so many stalkers, you were very weak to later pushes and that's why you felt so threatened and had to deviate so much. Basically, you deviated completely from the Creatorprime build. The Creatorprime build is a very specific build that relies on specific timings. What you did was a colossi build with forges added on later. Thank you very much monk. That's what I w as afraid of. So, in order to properly execute this build, I need to get sentries instead of stalkers if I see there is no early push coming?
It's more that getting earlier sentries is just good general gameplay. Since the Creatorprime build is so tight, you need to play well throughout the game.
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I've been trying this style for a while now with varied success. I should get some coaching from you. I PMed you a while back about it but you never replied
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United States8476 Posts
On March 19 2012 15:08 charliexjustice wrote:I've been trying this style for a while now with varied success. I should get some coaching from you. I PMed you a while back about it but you never replied
Just searched my inbox and don't have anything from you.
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good guide, ive been using this style for awhile now and its been working great. as a variation, swapping the timings of the robo bay/TC also allows you to get 2/2 around the same time you would usually, and is, i feel, a little bit safer vs the 4rax style with later medivacs.
also, i personally think that templar/archon should be mixed. archons dont benefit from armor upgrade, so tbh they dont tank all too much, nor do alot of dps if terran is good with their stutterstepping. templar added in makes ghost control much more difficult for terran as well.
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Hey Monk very nice guide so far,
i got some specific upgrade questions
should i chrono my forges from the first second and as much as possible ? same for council ?
research charge right after blink ?
and i'm a little uncertain in my unit composition.
i start with Mc 1 Gate and i got something like 1 Zealot and 3 Stalkers, after WG finishes i try to get 4 sentrys and after this 3 more stalkers for drop defense.
After this point should i just warp in zealots and spend the rest of my gas on Immortal/Coloss/Templer ?
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United States8476 Posts
On March 19 2012 15:25 HinagikUx wrote:
good guide, ive been using this style for awhile now and its been working great. as a variation, swapping the timings of the robo bay/TC also allows you to get 2/2 around the same time you would usually, and is, i feel, a little bit safer vs the 4rax style with later medivacs.
also, i personally think that templar/archon should be mixed. archons dont benefit from armor upgrade, so tbh they dont tank all too much, nor do alot of dps if terran is good with their stutterstepping. templar added in makes ghost control much more difficult for terran as well.
Double forge into twilight leaves you open to 1 rax cc into cloaked banshee and some biomech pushes.
On March 20 2012 07:13 spawnferkel wrote:
Hey Monk very nice guide so far,
i got some specific upgrade questions
should i chrono my forges from the first second and as much as possible ? same for council ?
research charge right after blink ?
Yes/yes/yes
and i'm a little uncertain in my unit composition.
i start with Mc 1 Gate and i got something like 1 Zealot and 3 Stalkers, after WG finishes i try to get 4 sentrys and after this 3 more stalkers for drop defense.
After this point should i just warp in zealots and spend the rest of my gas on Immortal/Coloss/Templer ?
After your first 6 stalkers, you'll eventually want to add even more stalkers for better drop defense and to protect your colossi from viking snipes. Normally a lot of stalkers make your army a much weaker, but this isn't an issue when you have huge upgrade advantages.
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Hi, I'm a high master protoss with my worst MU being PvT. It would be fine, but this ONE timing ALWAYS gets me (and I use this build). It's the medivac timing at 10minutes, i either get multiprong attacked or just attcked at my nat. I really really need help, i follow everything you say but it doesn't seem to cut it ever. If I can get into the lategame PvT without being at a disadvantage, I'm fine, but I'm always behind. Please look at my replay NrGMonk, I would seriously be so grateful!.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Pez_vs_(T)Veetz/18872
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I have same problem as Protossking. I am mid dia eu toss and with this build i have won every pvt macro game in last couple days but the main problem with the build that i have is the moment when terran goes for some kind of 4-5 rax + medivac push i am just not able to get army big enough to deal with it. I have upgrades and a lot of tech going + solid eco but almost any army.
Any advices? I have obs in positions before drops and blink usually near completition but terran can just stim roll over my army.
I would desperately need some replays of this build by progamers. But i dont have gomtv subscription.
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United States8476 Posts
On March 20 2012 15:54 Protossking wrote:Hi, I'm a high master protoss with my worst MU being PvT. It would be fine, but this ONE timing ALWAYS gets me (and I use this build). It's the medivac timing at 10minutes, i either get multiprong attacked or just attcked at my nat. I really really need help, i follow everything you say but it doesn't seem to cut it ever. If I can get into the lategame PvT without being at a disadvantage, I'm fine, but I'm always behind. Please look at my replay NrGMonk, I would seriously be so grateful!. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Pez_vs_(T)Veetz/18872
Just saw this now:
- Your opening is inefficient compared to the terran's opening. Thus, you start out a bit behind.
- You don't poke enough with your initial stalkers to scout/pressure. You retreat your stalkers way too early and lose the ability to deny scv scouting and scout pressure. There's really nothing to be afraid of, because shells off a gasless expand will be much later.
- Consider getting your natural gas later. I've found this very helpful for defending 2 medivac pushes.
- Consider delaying your 4th thru 6th gates until a bit later.
- With the 2 previous combined things, you should have way more zealots than you currently do.
- You have way too much idle robo time. Make 2 immortals, unless he's going pure marine. If you're not making immortals, make observers. You shouldn't really have idle robo time.
- Not enough observers and observers out of position. By that timing when he attacked, I would have at least 3 observers.
- This is probably the most important part: you should know exactly where his army is at all times. You don't have enough vision with obs/pylon placement to rule out a drop. If you can see his army in front of your base with 2 medivacs in it, with good game sense, you should know no drop will be coming. Thus, you can move your stalkers closer to your front. I would highly recommend a pylon/ patrolling obs to the left of your base to spot for drops. Also, an obs should be outside your base to not be caught off-guard by a frontal push.
- Again, keep track of the first 6 medivacs. By the timing of the starport, you should know when his first 2, 2nd 2, and 3rd 2 sets of medivacs come out. If any are missing from his main army, watch out.
- Your forges were in really bad position, forming a choke for your army.
- I assume you'd do better forcefields if you had a better army.
Same thing to Rasputincz.
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Thank you so much! My PvT mid and late game were so lost! Now I have something I can work on. :D
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I have a question regarding the production of immortals.
Why isn't it better to go into colossi as fast as possible ?
I find holding multi pronged attacks around 11'30 very hard without splash damage. Typically, I'll get double-dropped in the back of my main while the Terran will push with the rest of his army at my natural, all while he's taking a third. Even if I survive, I'm behind economically. Isn't it a big problem ? How can I take my third no longer than a minute after his, if I don't have colossi ? My army is not as powerful as his so I feel like I must play defensively at this timing.
In addition, if I delay colossus production after 11' by producing immortals, Terran has time to get a lot of medivacs and align his vikings timings perfectly with my colossi prod. If you make colossi earlier, there will be a timing where you'll have a colossus or two and he has no vikings, which gives you map presence and allows you to take your third more agressively.
Well, whatever. Whether I do the 2 immortals version, or the faster colossi, I usually loose at the stim + medivac timing. Just asking as I'm curious.
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This build is also commonly referred to as the Skullduggery build on the KR ladder. After i played CreatorPrime in Playhem i actually asked him about it and he said he and his friedns got the idea from watch Skullduggery's stream. But thanks for the write up i will be using these timings in my up coming pvts.
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On April 02 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:
I have a question regarding the production of immortals.
Why isn't it better to go into colossi as fast as possible ?
I find holding multi pronged attacks around 11'30 very hard without splash damage. Typically, I'll get double-dropped in the back of my main while the Terran will push with the rest of his army at my natural, all while he's taking a third. Even if I survive, I'm behind economically. Isn't it a big problem ? How can I take my third no longer than a minute after his, if I don't have colossi ? My army is not as powerful as his so I feel like I must play defensively at this timing.
In addition, if I delay colossus production after 11' by producing immortals, Terran has time to get a lot of medivacs and align his vikings timings perfectly with my colossi prod. If you make colossi earlier, there will be a timing where you'll have a colossus or two and he has no vikings, which gives you map presence and allows you to take your third more agressively.
Well, whatever. Whether I do the 2 immortals version, or the faster colossi, I usually loose at the stim + medivac timing. Just asking as I'm curious.
That's the price you pay for double upgrades, delaying your third until 1 collosus doesn't put you in a tough spot since you will have 2/2 so fast.
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On April 03 2012 03:05 Protossking wrote:
That's the price you pay for double upgrades, delaying your third until 1 collosus doesn't put you in a tough spot since you will have 2/2 so fast.
I wish. I looked at my most recent last two PvTs, and in both cases the Terrans went for double-engy bays at 6'. That's even earlier than this build, and there's no way to scout it in time to punish it. They're turtling behind two bunkers and get a third around 11' all while pushing with stim + medivacs. Meanwhile, I am on equal upgrades, blink almost done, no colossi.. I can defend fine but I don't see how to take a third and not be behind
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United States8476 Posts
On April 02 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:
I have a question regarding the production of immortals.
Why isn't it better to go into colossi as fast as possible ?
I find holding multi pronged attacks around 11'30 very hard without splash damage. Typically, I'll get double-dropped in the back of my main while the Terran will push with the rest of his army at my natural, all while he's taking a third. Even if I survive, I'm behind economically. Isn't it a big problem ? How can I take my third no longer than a minute after his, if I don't have colossi ? My army is not as powerful as his so I feel like I must play defensively at this timing.
In addition, if I delay colossus production after 11' by producing immortals, Terran has time to get a lot of medivacs and align his vikings timings perfectly with my colossi prod. If you make colossi earlier, there will be a timing where you'll have a colossus or two and he has no vikings, which gives you map presence and allows you to take your third more agressively.
Well, whatever. Whether I do the 2 immortals version, or the faster colossi, I usually loose at the stim + medivac timing. Just asking as I'm curious.
Creatorprime opening is the most common PvT opening in the pro scene. Fast colossi into double forge is the 2nd most common. They both have strengths and weaknesses. The colossi first opening gets slower upgrades and can be harder to defend drops with without blink. Faster upgrades open up timings as well. Creatorprime also allows you to catch your opponent offguard with a colossi switch.
On April 03 2012 03:39 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 03:05 Protossking wrote:
That's the price you pay for double upgrades, delaying your third until 1 collosus doesn't put you in a tough spot since you will have 2/2 so fast. I wish. I looked at my most recent last two PvTs, and in both cases the Terrans went for double-engy bays at 6'. That's even earlier than this build, and there's no way to scout it in time to punish it. They're turtling behind two bunkers and get a third around 11' all while pushing with stim + medivacs. Meanwhile, I am on equal upgrades, blink almost done, no colossi.. I can defend fine but I don't see how to take a third and not be behind
You'll still be ahead in upgrades because of chornoboost. Their medivac timing will also be delayed by about 30 seconds. Take your 3rd earlier, because you know your opponent is committing to the long term game. Then you can head into the macro game on equal or ahead footing.
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On April 03 2012 03:50 NrGmonk wrote:
You'll still be ahead in upgrades because of chornoboost. Their medivac timing will also be delayed by about 30 seconds. Take your 3rd earlier, because you know your opponent is committing to the long term game. Then you can head into the macro game on equal or ahead footing.
You won't be on upgrades since you start with 2 minutes of delay.. even with chrono boosts At best you'll end up on equal footing for the 3/3 I think.
I watched again the replay I had in mind, and it looks like Terran's play was very greedy. He had pretty standard timings for stim and medivacs, however he stayed on 3 rax for a looong time ( until 11' ) and his army wasn't as big as I originally thought. So I guess you're right, I could have easily taken my own third, but I ended up being too scared of double-drops ( even if you have blink, if you have bad luck your 6 gates are on cooldown and the rest of your army is out of pos.. ).
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Wow nice, have been struggling with current PvT. I´m used to play the old style with superfast Collo and had massive problem vs mulit-prone attacks. Thanks! Keep up the great work.
Greetings.
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Is there a good example of the creator style vs the semi common style I see of gasless FE into 3 total tanks but standard composition afterwards?
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Wow this seems really interesting!
I'm gonna give this a try and see how it's gonna work ^^
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This might have been asked but I'm not sure. Are there specific "greedy" actions a Toss can take if double engi bays are scouted I.e. perhaps taking a faster third?
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I am a mere plat player, but the way the guide is written, I'd think that "greedy" means making fewer units and more tech structures. I don't know if double EB involves a 2-bases push, but if it does, you won't hold it with tech + upgrades + third.
Awesome guide btw, my PvT dramatically improved with this strat =)
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Italy12246 Posts
On April 22 2012 08:38 Wingblade wrote:
This might have been asked but I'm not sure. Are there specific "greedy" actions a Toss can take if double engi bays are scouted I.e. perhaps taking a faster third?
Reduce/cut gateway unit production; tech to colossus faster, get a third faster.
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United States8476 Posts
Double eng bay isn't a huge investment from terran. It only delays medivacs by about 20-30 seconds in comparison to a normal build. It does however force an early armory and an early investment into +2/+2 from the terran, which might delay the 4th + 5th raxes from him. You can do little adjustments based on this information, but I don't really have anything definitive for you.
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Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
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United States8476 Posts
On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question:
1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base.
2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army.
3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units.
4. Don't mess up forcefields.
5. Post a replay.
For the 2nd:
1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc.
Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote.
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On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote.
Can you take a look at this replay?
http://drop.sc/174102
Thanks!
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On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote. Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks!
hey i think you shouldn't get twilight and Robo bay at the same time. Going for double forge I think twilight and than follow up with 3 more gate will be better, his 2nd attk cost you the game coz you simple don't have enought gate to produce unit.
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Is there not a higher res image of the flowchart. It's really blurry.
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Hi Fellas ! I am high diamond EU and i use this build all the time against terran with a good success. Nevertheless, i got some problems with 2 terrans builds. First, i dont know how to react to 2 rax opening stim push followed by tanks ( Very odd i know).
And second question, you basically take your third when coloss are about to pop out but what if the terran take his third early (not 3CC opening) ? Cause at this time he has a good amount of bio ball and i have no splash damage, just 2 immo and gateways units. Thanks !
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Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
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On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
I was sort of wondering this as well, although I have not been using Creator's build as much recently.
The stim marine medivac pressure comes really quick, but I'm not sure if you can get colossus out in time for it while still getting blink / double upgrades. Your best bet is to probably have a huge amount of +1+1 gateways units and/or blink/charge, but I'm not sure exactly how Creator deals with this exact double reactor build.
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On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
I dont think colossus are necessary unless you see a really heavy devotion (4-5+ rax)
I use this style every pvt and i find that this 3 rax medivac push is completely defendable on the current ladder map pool (keep in mind i have metalopolis, antiga, and korhal compound vetoed)
1-1 upgrades should be finished and you should have a minimal of 6-8 sentries 1 immortal done (2nd on the way) some zealot stalker as well as 6 gateways finished ready to warp.
Good forcefields are critical, personally i like to go a little stalker heavy. Good forcefields and if you can, try to anticipate the maneuvere they do when they lift units up to drop behind FF's Take this opportunity to step forward with your stalkers and target down the medivacs.
Im in class atm :p but i will gladly upload High-master/Grandmaster replays tackling this build head on with creator style and coming out on top.
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On May 10 2012 07:37 -Exalt- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push. I was sort of wondering this as well, although I have not been using Creator's build as much recently. The stim marine medivac pressure comes really quick, but I'm not sure if you can get colossus out in time for it while still getting blink / double upgrades. Your best bet is to probably have a huge amount of +1+1 gateways units and/or blink/charge, but I'm not sure exactly how Creator deals with this exact double reactor build.
I second this concern. The new style of multiple reactors means the medvac timing comes with a large number of marines, which both deal considerable damage and also make much deadlier doom drops.
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On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
As promised, here are 2 recent high-master PvT's of me holding this push with realtive ease using the creator prime style
http://drop.sc/176285
http://drop.sc/176283
EDIT:
Here's 1 more vs. xSixVer :D
http://drop.sc/176332
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On May 11 2012 09:32 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push. As promised, here are 2 recent high-master PvT's of me holding this push with realtive ease using the creator prime style http://drop.sc/176285http://drop.sc/176283EDIT: Here's 1 more vs. xSixVer :D http://drop.sc/176332
I watched the first one your build isn't really resembling creatorprime style at all. When the push hits you have pure stalker sentry immortal, when creator style opens with a maximum of 5 stalkers 4 sentries and the rest zealots/2immortals. Your 2/2 was really delayed because of this and your build just didn't flow properly at all. You don't have a robotics bay at 11 minutes and you still haven't started 2/2, usually my 2/2 will be halfway complete and I will have a collosus coming out momentarily. If the terran was smart he just wouldn't engage against 8 sentries and stalkers up a ramp, he would simply back off take a third and out-macro you since you don't have enough gas to transition from this unit combination. It actually seems like an all-in to me with 1/1 blink immortal sentry. Robotics bay comes up at like 14minutes..
Obviously you can hold it off without going creatorprime, I'm more thinking about zealot 5 stalkers 4 sentrys where you can't just make ff donuts etc.
oh and here's a replay showing that if you cut corners to get faster collosi and forcefield your ramp a few times you can get a collosus out to deal with his push.(also high master)
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)KinetiC_vs_(P)MxGPezz/19667
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I've been playing a similar CreatorPrime style PvT for over a month, but I have always gotten the robo bay before the additional gates. Is it better with the additional gates sooner because I find that getting the colossi AoE out faster allows me to pack more punch and get my third up a tad quicker.
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As a terran this build makes me shudder lol Nice work on the OP man. Very nice explainations, replays, and a totally badass diagram at the end. Awesome! Great work *shoulder clap*
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United States8476 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote. Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks!
You fell quite behind from the 5 rax aggression. Even though you lost fewer resources in that fight, you lost valuable sentries and didn't bother to replace them. You need to be more forward with your stalkers and scout/kite his marines with stalkers across the map. You need to take a faster 3rd after you hold it off, especially when you see his 3rd, which you didn't. A huge mistake was that you didn't bother to replace your sentry count. Instead you tried to rush colossi, which could have worked except your colossi was too late.
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On May 11 2012 12:34 Protossking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 09:32 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push. As promised, here are 2 recent high-master PvT's of me holding this push with realtive ease using the creator prime style http://drop.sc/176285http://drop.sc/176283EDIT: Here's 1 more vs. xSixVer :D http://drop.sc/176332 I watched the first one your build isn't really resembling creatorprime style at all. When the push hits you have pure stalker sentry immortal, when creator style opens with a maximum of 5 stalkers 4 sentries and the rest zealots/2immortals. Your 2/2 was really delayed because of this and your build just didn't flow properly at all. You don't have a robotics bay at 11 minutes and you still haven't started 2/2, usually my 2/2 will be halfway complete and I will have a collosus coming out momentarily. If the terran was smart he just wouldn't engage against 8 sentries and stalkers up a ramp, he would simply back off take a third and out-macro you since you don't have enough gas to transition from this unit combination. It actually seems like an all-in to me with 1/1 blink immortal sentry. Robotics bay comes up at like 14minutes.. Obviously you can hold it off without going creatorprime, I'm more thinking about zealot 5 stalkers 4 sentrys where you can't just make ff donuts etc. oh and here's a replay showing that if you cut corners to get faster collosi and forcefield your ramp a few times you can get a collosus out to deal with his push.(also high master) http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)KinetiC_vs_(P)MxGPezz/19667
looking at both replays and using the heavy stalker style before, I have to say the faster colossus and charge one seems much better, the transition is a lot smoother and it seems like you can get better early trades if you do have to trade armies, zealots are more expendable than stalkers. You can also take a faster third and hit a faster 3/3 timing with zealots.
However saying that I think both styles are viable, just a matter of preference, the stalkers style lets you harass and get more observers early on if you lose them since you arent making colossus right away.
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On May 12 2012 09:12 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote. Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks! You fell quite behind from the 5 rax aggression. Even though you lost fewer resources in that fight, you lost valuable sentries and didn't bother to replace them. You need to be more forward with your stalkers and scout/kite his marines with stalkers across the map. You need to take a faster 3rd after you hold it off, especially when you see his 3rd, which you didn't. A huge mistake was that you didn't bother to replace your sentry count. Instead you tried to rush colossi, which could have worked except your colossi was too late.
Thanks!
Should I just assume that it is safe to expand after I hold the aggression off?
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Can anyone point me in the right direction for pro or high master vods/replays of this build (the more recent the better) vs the popular Double reactor marine stim medivac +1 aggression (after 1 rax FE of course) while the Terran gets his 3rd base? Even with blink it can be incredibly hard to not take damage from this and get your 3rd up at a decent time.
Good terrans always kill my obs nowadays so I have to have my stalkers in my main, at which point they attack my natural (keep in mind this is really marine heavy, so any immortals are near useless). By the time my stalkers are down to help they've already done some damage, then after that they might all out drop my main's mineral line etc where you can't even kill the medivacs in time before the units are out. This goes on and on while they get their own 3rd up and delay yours tremendously.
A side question i have is, what are the timings for Colossus / 3rd base vs a 1 rax 3 CC build? From my experience it's tough to get quicker colossus w/ this build due to the gas needed for +2+2, so i was curious as to what timing you actually use for your Colo in this situation
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so i watched the protoss king replay where he skips immortals for faster colo and charge and have had pretty good success with it except for vs early mass rax styles with delayed starport. Here is a rep of me playing vs that:
http://drop.sc/181316
Can someone analyze it and tell me what I did wrong, Did I need to wait for 2 colossi before I grabbed the third, do I need to get the third and delay colossi for enough units to defend it since he'll have less medivacs?
I understand I lost my sentries early on but I dont think thats the only reason I lost so as much feedback as possible would be appreciated.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 13 2012 13:01 Marodox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:12 NrGmonk wrote:On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote. Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks! You fell quite behind from the 5 rax aggression. Even though you lost fewer resources in that fight, you lost valuable sentries and didn't bother to replace them. You need to be more forward with your stalkers and scout/kite his marines with stalkers across the map. You need to take a faster 3rd after you hold it off, especially when you see his 3rd, which you didn't. A huge mistake was that you didn't bother to replace your sentry count. Instead you tried to rush colossi, which could have worked except your colossi was too late. Thanks! Should I just assume that it is safe to expand after I hold the aggression off?
Yes, if you hold it convincingly, i.e. if you didn't lose any sentries.
On May 16 2012 09:58 xOny wrote:
Can anyone point me in the right direction for pro or high master vods/replays of this build (the more recent the better) vs the popular Double reactor marine stim medivac +1 aggression (after 1 rax FE of course) while the Terran gets his 3rd base? Even with blink it can be incredibly hard to not take damage from this and get your 3rd up at a decent time.
Good terrans always kill my obs nowadays so I have to have my stalkers in my main, at which point they attack my natural (keep in mind this is really marine heavy, so any immortals are near useless). By the time my stalkers are down to help they've already done some damage, then after that they might all out drop my main's mineral line etc where you can't even kill the medivacs in time before the units are out. This goes on and on while they get their own 3rd up and delay yours tremendously.
A side question i have is, what are the timings for Colossus / 3rd base vs a 1 rax 3 CC build? From my experience it's tough to get quicker colossus w/ this build due to the gas needed for +2+2, so i was curious as to what timing you actually use for your Colo in this situation
I don't have pro replays/vods vs the 2 reactor push, but here are some vs the 1 rax 3 cc build Check out Creator vs Jjakji KSL Game 8 and Creator vs Kas IPTL Game 7 on Shakruas Plateau linked in the OP. To summarize what they do: fast 3rd nexus off of 3 gates, cut units entirely for a while, then add a robo bay, then add 3 more gates. You should have enough minerals to do this by cutting zealots/stalkers. You should have enough gas to get the fast robo bay by cutting stalkers.
On May 16 2012 14:20 AlphaDotCom wrote:so i watched the protoss king replay where he skips immortals for faster colo and charge and have had pretty good success with it except for vs early mass rax styles with delayed starport. Here is a rep of me playing vs that: http://drop.sc/181316Can someone analyze it and tell me what I did wrong, Did I need to wait for 2 colossi before I grabbed the third, do I need to get the third and delay colossi for enough units to defend it since he'll have less medivacs? I understand I lost my sentries early on but I dont think thats the only reason I lost so as much feedback as possible would be appreciated.
I'll comment on the 2 defining moments in the game. First, you didn't hold his initial 4 rax well. If you trade evenly in resources versus that build, you end up behind, because he trades mineral units for your gas heavy sentries. You're also forced to be more passive than you should be and thus you end up behind on econ because you can't take a 3rd. I talked about this in a previous post about a page ago.
Secondly, you lost the 2nd fight, because you were floating 1200 minerals. You didn't need a 2nd colossi, but even 6 more zealots would have won that fight for you.
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any high masters players want to put replays of themselves doing this build against heavy rax agression into a decently timed third base with delayed starport since this is what a lot of people including myself have been asking questions about?
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I was wondering if anyone has any feedback on this build on Antiga against a drop-heavy Terran player. I feel the exposed high ground of the main is too easily dropped due to the Terran's units being able to hug the wall to clear any stalkers defending the top then immediately dropping into the main.
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To hold any drop aggression in Antiga you need one observer over his army and the second one behing you mineral line to spot drops earlier
Keep about 5 or 6 stalker in you main and push back the terran with decent forcefield right when blink finishes, being very careful of blinking again to your main if he tries to drop you
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Hey Monk he just used it vs Happy in KSL Team League Game 11
Results:
+ Show Spoiler +
I love the build it is so safe and is long game focused <3 Creator
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On May 28 2012 02:26 Recoil wrote:Hey Monk he just used it vs Happy in KSL Team League Game 11 Results: + Show Spoiler +I love the build it is so safe and is long game focused <3 Creator
He didn't use the style described in the OP.
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Is this a playstyle that is still viable and recommended to learn? I'm a masters P and need to polish up my playstyle and could this strategy be it? Or is it outdated and there are better options?
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On June 16 2012 13:42 PolishxThunder wrote:
Is this a playstyle that is still viable and recommended to learn? I'm a masters P and need to polish up my playstyle and could this strategy be it? Or is it outdated and there are better options?
I used it a lot last season and as long as I didn't make macro mistakes I won 70%+ of my PvT.
This build + slightly modified version(changed somethings around), and some Parting styles got me 68%ish pvt last season. Mid Masters 1000+ points. Not sure about this season, but I would say this is a solid build to learn, especially for tourneys,BOx etc.
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Would you mind uploading some replays of you doing it, wanna see the modifications. So you don't think It's a ladder build?
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Sorry I don't have any replays, I'm at my parent's house until July and I only have my laptop.
But depending on what I see, I do a mixture of, getting faster forges/skipping immortals/getting fast third/faster colo/or skip colo for storm, just some little changes in timings etc.
I think this is still a good ladder build, but maybe terrans adapted/or play differently now so I cant be too sure, haven't played in few weeks
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Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT)
Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.>
Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building.
Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out?
This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps
Thank you very much, once again, great guide
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Edited this post like 4 times.
Basically: Thank you for the awesome guide
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On July 02 2012 11:05 Wonderstruck wrote:Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT) Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.> Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building. Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out? This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps Thank you very much, once again, great guide
Observers - there's plenty of dead robo time in between making immortals and colossus, and I would definitely recommend getting out additional observers especially if your initial 2 get killed (and even if they don't). As far as your observers go, I don't recommend having it constantly moving and following his army around, because that makes it easier for the terran to notice your observer and scan and kill it (of course a good terran would notice an observer even if it wasn't moving, but moving it only makes it so much easier). Instead, just keep observers stationary at important locations around the map such as choke points, watch towers if the terran is controlling them, or a rally point outside one of your bases.
When engaging a terran before you have charge, you'll have to rely on good forcefields. This is easier said than done of course, so sometimes the best way to engage the terran is to actually go out and engage him (when his attention is elsewhere) as opposed to waiting for him to attack your position.
Regarding taking your 3rd, don't worry about terran holding the macro advantage and taking their 3rd much earlier than you. Being able to take your 3rd before or after you have colossus is completely situational, the point of this build is to have the upgrade advantage which should allow you to win any battle before 200/200 even though your army will be smaller.
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Incredible guide, huge thanks for the time that went into it.
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On July 02 2012 11:52 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 11:05 Wonderstruck wrote:Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT) Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.> Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building. Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out? This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps Thank you very much, once again, great guide Observers - there's plenty of dead robo time in between making immortals and colossus, and I would definitely recommend getting out additional observers especially if your initial 2 get killed (and even if they don't). As far as your observers go, I don't recommend having it constantly moving and following his army around, because that makes it easier for the terran to notice your observer and scan and kill it (of course a good terran would notice an observer even if it wasn't moving, but moving it only makes it so much easier). Instead, just keep observers stationary at important locations around the map such as choke points, watch towers if the terran is controlling them, or a rally point outside one of your bases. When engaging a terran before you have charge, you'll have to rely on good forcefields. This is easier said than done of course, so sometimes the best way to engage the terran is to actually go out and engage him (when his attention is elsewhere) as opposed to waiting for him to attack your position. Regarding taking your 3rd, don't worry about terran holding the macro advantage and taking their 3rd much earlier than you. Being able to take your 3rd before or after you have colossus is completely situational, the point of this build is to have the upgrade advantage which should allow you to win any battle before 200/200 even though your army will be smaller.
Thanks! Last question, how many stalkers should I have at most (some in main, rest in army)? I think I may overmake them sometimes because I get real paranoid about drops. And could this build be done easily after 3 gate pressure versus a gasless expand, or would everything be too delayed.
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On July 02 2012 14:42 Wonderstruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 11:52 rsvp wrote:On July 02 2012 11:05 Wonderstruck wrote:Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT) Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.> Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building. Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out? This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps Thank you very much, once again, great guide Observers - there's plenty of dead robo time in between making immortals and colossus, and I would definitely recommend getting out additional observers especially if your initial 2 get killed (and even if they don't). As far as your observers go, I don't recommend having it constantly moving and following his army around, because that makes it easier for the terran to notice your observer and scan and kill it (of course a good terran would notice an observer even if it wasn't moving, but moving it only makes it so much easier). Instead, just keep observers stationary at important locations around the map such as choke points, watch towers if the terran is controlling them, or a rally point outside one of your bases. When engaging a terran before you have charge, you'll have to rely on good forcefields. This is easier said than done of course, so sometimes the best way to engage the terran is to actually go out and engage him (when his attention is elsewhere) as opposed to waiting for him to attack your position. Regarding taking your 3rd, don't worry about terran holding the macro advantage and taking their 3rd much earlier than you. Being able to take your 3rd before or after you have colossus is completely situational, the point of this build is to have the upgrade advantage which should allow you to win any battle before 200/200 even though your army will be smaller. Thanks! Last question, how many stalkers should I have at most (some in main, rest in army)? I think I may overmake them sometimes because I get real paranoid about drops. And could this build be done easily after 3 gate pressure versus a gasless expand, or would everything be too delayed.
Terran here, been playing some practice games against protoss lately using the build you're describing (I think).
You don't really need that many stalkers at all, I think 5-7 in base is fine. Assuming there are 2 medivacs, you really only need to snipe one and it's pretty much lights out. You can defend with heavy sentry/forcefield zealot while you buy time for colossus since terran at this point is super marine heavy.
Also; on defending drops, it's much easier if you take the time to put spotter pylons. For example on Daybreak if you're spawning on the top right position, placing a pylon around the back of the mineral field at the 12 o clock mid base will give you a heads up when medivacs are out and when drops are possible. Most of the time you can safely put pylons around 7-10 because terran doesn't want to be moving out before medivacs are out, map control is more in your favor than his.
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United States8476 Posts
For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like:
FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation.
With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings.
10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small.
12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible.
14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note:
Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new.
Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening
Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
Here's a link of a game:
http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
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I have also seen him left his double forge style for fast forge + twilight, dont know if u have noticed. He's not focusing on templar like lots of players do and he makes more units for the 10-12mins timings.
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Here are two replays of my first attempts at doing this style. I pretty much get trashed. I've been on a break from SC2 for the past two weeks, but I didn't realise I was this awful:
http://drop.sc/222996
http://drop.sc/222995
Can anyone provide advice as to what needs improving in my play and how I can execute this build better? Thanks.
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On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote:For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
Can we get some "new" replays with that modified style, maybe you doing it ?
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so timing on the first colossus isn't very important and more so centered on supply(130)?
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Canada13388 Posts
On July 18 2012 07:29 Aelfric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote:For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881 Can we get some "new" replays with that modified style, maybe you doing it ?
I would absolutely love this. I would like to watch these replays as I have a hard time dealing with the medivac timings and heavy rax. I really feel super contained at the 12 minute mark to 2 bases. It might just be me underestimating how strong my army is though.
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I would say you should be able to expand after 2 colossus as long as you can defend drops well. It can feel uncomfortable but he has to account for your colossus production with vikings and during the set up of the third, I would start the tech switch to templars.
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funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p
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Canada13388 Posts
On July 21 2012 13:31 Alejandrisha wrote:
funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p
We also didnt like templar with the amulet. Collossus were "better"
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On July 21 2012 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 13:31 Alejandrisha wrote:
funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p We also didnt like templar with the amulet. Collossus were "better"
I never liked colossus at all in pvt in when they were the cool thing to get. i was always doin super fast HT plays haha. naniwa kinda convinced me colossus were better by idk ALWAYS going stalk colossus in pvt and winning every game :p
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Is this a playstyle that is still working?
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United States7483 Posts
On July 21 2012 13:31 Alejandrisha wrote:
funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p
Well, people are getting better with their forcefield efficiency, and obviously you want to minimize the amount of gas you have to spend on sentries, so if you can achieve the same effect with 3 as you can with 4, it's only natural =p.
But yeah, watching old games, people sucked horribly with forcefields (except for MC).
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On July 21 2012 13:07 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:29 Aelfric wrote:On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote:For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881 Can we get some "new" replays with that modified style, maybe you doing it ? I would absolutely love this. I would like to watch these replays as I have a hard time dealing with the medivac timings and heavy rax. I really feel super contained at the 12 minute mark to 2 bases. It might just be me underestimating how strong my army is though.
http://www.sc2-replays.net/de/replays/?adv_search=1&all=1&event=74
They're in there.
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What do you do verse 15cc into 4 rax + SCV pull?
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On July 22 2012 21:22 etherealfall wrote:
What do you do verse 15cc into 4 rax + SCV pull?
you'd see it coming out of the gate with your stalker(s) and from there, Id advise against adding any sentries and I would tell you to make pure cb'd stalkers and get maximum kiting distance from his base to yours. obviously, it will still be tough since you've invested in the robo at that point, and probably the 2 forges as well. cancel +1/+1 immediately if you've started them
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On July 23 2012 10:08 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 21:22 etherealfall wrote:
What do you do verse 15cc into 4 rax + SCV pull? you'd see it coming out of the gate with your stalker(s) and from there, Id advise against adding any sentries and I would tell you to make pure cb'd stalkers and get maximum kiting distance from his base to yours. obviously, it will still be tough since you've invested in the robo at that point, and probably the 2 forges as well. cancel +1/+1 immediately if you've started them
can't you just make a lot of cannons?
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Not enough time i think. I'll keep your advise in mind if i come across it again alejandrisha
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So do we use this new variation against the double tech lab too, or just the double reactor.
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I use to do this build on high/top master (as my standard PvT) and both styles are viable and powerful. With the old one is easier to defend on the top of a ramp, but you will need really good ff against a good terran to take your third (if he goes 5 rax before third)
With the new style is a bit more difficult to defend if he tries to drop and attack your natural at the same time because you would have only one inmortal and less sentrys, but the first colossi is done about 1 minute earlier, so you would take your third 1 minute before in the worst scenario.
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I have been using this lately.
This build is really strong
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Could someone give some pointers on what units to warp in at what times? I have a difficult time defending against terrans that drop while attacking the natural. Which/what amount of units do you usually have in your main?
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United States8476 Posts
On July 31 2012 21:15 Bahamuth wrote:
Could someone give some pointers on what units to warp in at what times? I have a difficult time defending against terrans that drop while attacking the natural. Which/what amount of units do you usually have in your main?
By 10 minutes, you want 3-4 sentries, 6 stalkers, and the rest zealots. You usually have 6 stalkers and perhaps a few zealots in your main.
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I have been using this really well lately, but I don't know when I can take my third. It seems like I take it to late, its always after the medivac push, but I feel like that is actually to late.
When should I take it and how do I defend it going up during the medivac push?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 02 2012 07:40 -MoOsE- wrote:
I have been using this really well lately, but I don't know when I can take my third. It seems like I take it to late, its always after the medivac push, but I feel like that is actually to late.
When should I take it and how do I defend it going up during the medivac push?
Compared to other builds, it may feel like you're taking your third too late, but this is perfectly ok since your army will be stronger than normal. At the very latest, you can take it when your first colossi comes out. Against a standard medivac build, you generally won't be able to take your expo before his. However, especially against an opponent that skimps on early upgrades for more army to push you, you'll be perfectly fine at an economic deficit, because your opponent will not be able to combat your 3-3 close to maxed army with anything lower than 2-2 upgrades, and even then it's hard for him. Don't know if that answers your question.
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I have a few questions guys...
Does this build counter any standard terran push ? I mean if i go in with quick medivacs ( factory 6:15 ) +stim and shield, can i outright kill him ? Because if i attack before his 1/1 i feel i have the advantage.
If not what is the best build for terran to do against creator build ?
Also what is the best army composition ? I feel that marines are not worth it against so many archons, they die in one shot to colossi too... maraudeur/ghost/viking would handle more effectively that mass archons style.
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Italy12246 Posts
The answer to both those questions are in the OP....this build can hold medivac timings and the correct terran reaction against this is to play greedier as protoss won't attack until about the 16 minute mark when 3/3 is done.
Regarding army composition, overall lately terrans have been playing more marine heavy as marauders suck against heavily upgraded chargelot/archon which this build emphasizes, but that's general modern tvp stuff. Neither the protoss nor the terran army composition will be very different from any mid-lategame composition if p opened with this build.
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I'm having problems with this build when the terran goes for quick pressure before medivac. I normally make units while my 3 extra gates are being made. When do you make units. I normally just wait for as long as possible but I feel like that is not the way to hold this. Is there something I should do in my build order too?
thanks
http://drop.sc/242890 http://drop.sc/242889
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Could you possibly update the OP with recent replays please! ^^
Also, I've seen Minigun use this style to great effect on stream a lot lately, trying to adopt using this in PvT again!
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I've been seeing a very similar build to this that many korean tosses are doing (especially creator) where he gets the robo bay after the robotics finishes, and then starts the 2 forges while the robo bay is about halfway done. I like this slightly more because the colossi come a lot quicker (thus making it safer vs the medivac stim timing) while still getting the double upgrades.
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On September 03 2012 14:21 xOtit wrote:
I've been seeing a very similar build to this that many korean tosses are doing (especially creator) where he gets the robo bay after the robotics finishes, and then starts the 2 forges while the robo bay is about halfway done. I like this slightly more because the colossi come a lot quicker (thus making it safer vs the medivac stim timing) while still getting the double upgrades.
I've noticed the same thing, seem to be Creators reaction to something he scouts.
Also seeing him dominating T's at TSL is just so awesome you can take every game and learn from it.
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does anyone have any new replays of the collosus before ups? thanks
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On September 03 2012 16:38 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 14:21 xOtit wrote:
I've been seeing a very similar build to this that many korean tosses are doing (especially creator) where he gets the robo bay after the robotics finishes, and then starts the 2 forges while the robo bay is about halfway done. I like this slightly more because the colossi come a lot quicker (thus making it safer vs the medivac stim timing) while still getting the double upgrades. I've noticed the same thing, seem to be Creators reaction to something he scouts. Also seeing him dominating T's at TSL is just so awesome you can take every game and learn from it.
I was thinking it was a reaction to scouting information as well, but it seems like in almost all of his recent games he is opening with a robotics bay sometime just before 8 minutes, around 8 minute forges, and then citadel and 3 gates at around 9:30.
So essentially he is replacing the citadel with the robotics bay, and instead making the citadel when it is needed to start 2-2, and delaying the gates slightly to offset the cost of the colosus.
If I had to guess I would say he was having issues with players who power up on 5 rax and do the extremely strong 11:30 timing push that hits before you have a colosus with the 2 immortal variation.
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On September 12 2012 21:45 dream-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:38 Rimak wrote:On September 03 2012 14:21 xOtit wrote:
I've been seeing a very similar build to this that many korean tosses are doing (especially creator) where he gets the robo bay after the robotics finishes, and then starts the 2 forges while the robo bay is about halfway done. I like this slightly more because the colossi come a lot quicker (thus making it safer vs the medivac stim timing) while still getting the double upgrades. I've noticed the same thing, seem to be Creators reaction to something he scouts. Also seeing him dominating T's at TSL is just so awesome you can take every game and learn from it. I was thinking it was a reaction to scouting information as well, but it seems like in almost all of his recent games he is opening with a robotics bay sometime just before 8 minutes, around 8 minute forges, and then citadel and 3 gates at around 9:30. So essentially he is replacing the citadel with the robotics bay, and instead making the citadel when it is needed to start 2-2, and delaying the gates slightly to offset the cost of the colosus. If I had to guess I would say he was having issues with players who power up on 5 rax and do the extremely strong 11:30 timing push that hits before you have a colosus with the 2 immortal variation.
11:30 timing? What is this?
Most common timing push I get hit by Terrans normally is the 10 minute +1 medivac timing with stim. One MKP and a number of other terrans have been doing lately to punish a Protoss for teching too greedily or to try and get the game on equal footing before the lategame stages.
I don't think I've ever heard of an 11:30 timing o.O
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is there a way to punish a fast 3rd cc AND double engi bay with this build? (by the time your obs scouts it obviously)
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United States8476 Posts
On September 13 2012 15:23 QzYSc2 wrote:
is there a way to punish a fast 3rd cc AND double engi bay with this build? (by the time your obs scouts it obviously)
Nope, but there's really no way to punish that with any passive macro build.
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On September 13 2012 15:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 15:23 QzYSc2 wrote:
is there a way to punish a fast 3rd cc AND double engi bay with this build? (by the time your obs scouts it obviously) Nope, but there's really no way to punish that with any passive macro build.
What is the best way to proceed if Terran does this (apart from taking third)? Get fast templar and colossi at the same time? Is it viable to get 4 base?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 13 2012 15:26 lordsurya08 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 15:25 NrGmonk wrote:On September 13 2012 15:23 QzYSc2 wrote:
is there a way to punish a fast 3rd cc AND double engi bay with this build? (by the time your obs scouts it obviously) Nope, but there's really no way to punish that with any passive macro build. What is the best way to proceed if Terran does this (apart from taking third)? Get fast templar and colossi at the same time? Is it viable to get 4 base?
Key is to scout it asap and don't let you observers get sniped. If you don't scout it forever, I highly recommend getting fast templar asap, as without them, there's a deadly maxed 2-2 timing can hit that's auto win. I would link you to the Bomber vs Creator game showing this, but I can't find the vod.
If you do scout it fast: Skip gates 4-6. Throw down a third, cut down all units. Taking a fast fourth isn't really viable as at 11 minutes, Terran will have the same number of attacking units he would have had with 2 CCs at 10 minutes. At about 13 minutes, he'll have the same number of units, and then afterwards, his unit count will skyrocket drastically. This happens to be exactly the time you're probably suggesting to take your 4th. If you scout it early, fast templar are optional, but imo there's really no right or wrong answer in this situation.
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Hey anyone have a replay of creator doing this new variation of the build
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United States8476 Posts
On September 15 2012 15:01 -MoOsE- wrote:
Hey anyone have a replay of creator doing this new variation of the build
If you're talking about the 4 gate variation I talked about, check the replay pack about 1 or 2 pages back. He does it once on Ohana again MKP.
On September 03 2012 16:38 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 14:21 xOtit wrote:
I've been seeing a very similar build to this that many korean tosses are doing (especially creator) where he gets the robo bay after the robotics finishes, and then starts the 2 forges while the robo bay is about halfway done. I like this slightly more because the colossi come a lot quicker (thus making it safer vs the medivac stim timing) while still getting the double upgrades. I've noticed the same thing, seem to be Creators reaction to something he scouts. Also seeing him dominating T's at TSL is just so awesome you can take every game and learn from it.
If you're talking about this variation, I actually do have some TSL reps of this build, but I'm not allowed to share them. Just check out the vods of his TSL games.
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This build still works good on high levels? 'cause its from 2011 and maybe there is a new version of this build?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 15 2012 16:46 Daniel12 wrote:
This build still works good on high levels? 'cause its from 2011 and maybe there is a new version of this build?
Yes, to a certain extent. Of course, in reaction to the new double reactor builds, there have been new versions made.
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Monk, I'm looking for the variation of the robo bay before the 2 forges.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 16 2012 08:18 -MoOsE- wrote:
Monk, I'm looking for the variation of the robo bay before the 2 forges.
I actually consider that an entirely different build. It's too far removed from this build to be considered the same imo. Again, I do have replays of Creator doing it, but I can't give them out. However, robo bay into double forge is very very common, so you shouldn't have problems finding replays.
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On September 16 2012 08:51 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:18 -MoOsE- wrote:
Monk, I'm looking for the variation of the robo bay before the 2 forges. I actually consider that an entirely different build. It's too far removed from this build to be considered the same imo. Again, I do have replays of Creator doing it, but I can't give them out. However, robo bay into double forge is very very common, so you shouldn't have problems finding replays.
To supplement this, look at Genius' TSL4 qualifier replays. He does this in almost all of his PVTs.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 16 2012 21:21 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:51 monk. wrote:On September 16 2012 08:18 -MoOsE- wrote:
Monk, I'm looking for the variation of the robo bay before the 2 forges. I actually consider that an entirely different build. It's too far removed from this build to be considered the same imo. Again, I do have replays of Creator doing it, but I can't give them out. However, robo bay into double forge is very very common, so you shouldn't have problems finding replays. To supplement this, look at Genius' TSL4 qualifier replays. He does this in almost all of his PVTs.
Yea, I recall Genius does this a ton. Mana used to as well, but has since switched his style up a lot.
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Hi TL,
i lost to a Terran who did the Medivac Push with 5 Rax instead of 3 Rax. He had +1 and cut scvs at 50. He stimmed at 12:30. I had 65 Workers and 4 Stalkers in my Main. And i couldn't hold the stimmed Bio Army with Forcefields
What can i do the next time, when i see more then 3 Rax? Only 1 Forge? 3 additional Gates before Twilight? Faster Koloss?
Sry, for the bad english 
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United States8476 Posts
On October 01 2012 01:00 attaQue90 wrote:Hi TL, i lost to a Terran who did the Medivac Push with 5 Rax instead of 3 Rax. He had +1 and cut scvs at 50. He stimmed at 12:30. I had 65 Workers and 4 Stalkers in my Main. And i couldn't hold the stimmed Bio Army with Forcefields What can i do the next time, when i see more then 3 Rax? Only 1 Forge? 3 additional Gates before Twilight? Faster Koloss? Sry, for the bad english
Yes, you need to have a colossi by that time. Read the additional notes in the past few pages as well as the very start of the guide.
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On October 01 2012 02:03 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 01:00 attaQue90 wrote:Hi TL, i lost to a Terran who did the Medivac Push with 5 Rax instead of 3 Rax. He had +1 and cut scvs at 50. He stimmed at 12:30. I had 65 Workers and 4 Stalkers in my Main. And i couldn't hold the stimmed Bio Army with Forcefields What can i do the next time, when i see more then 3 Rax? Only 1 Forge? 3 additional Gates before Twilight? Faster Koloss? Sry, for the bad english Yes, you need to have a colossi by that time. Read the additional notes in the past few pages as well as the very start of the guide.
Just my personal experience, if terran is 2 basing stop probes and pump units. Its easy to die to 2 base terran.
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Do you have an actual replay that I can look at?
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How would you respond to the 5 rax 2 base all-in with vikings + scvs pulled commonly on entombed with this build?
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On October 10 2012 02:09 name_lock wrote:
How would you respond to the 5 rax 2 base all-in with vikings + scvs pulled commonly on entombed with this build?
Monk's OP already covers this. You place 1-2 cannons to help defend. I imagine you also need to use FFs to buy time or cut part of the terran army. Probably should have at least 1 colo by then too.
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Could anyone please post a recent replay of this build with the modifications for the medivac timing push? I'm trying to learn it, and VODs don't help that much.
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how many warp in cycles are you supposed to use while getting all your tech? i usually build a zealot and a stalker out of my first gateway, and then go up to 3 sentries, then tech really hard (assuming standard 10 minute medivac timing) and only then start warpiing units in. I tend to end up with too few units by the time the terran gets to my base though.
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Any idea why Creator seems to have stopped using this build? In recent tournaments, his go-to macro build at the moment seems to be being greedy with gas followed by an early robo bay and only getting forges about a minute or so after that.
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On December 12 2012 02:28 eugalp wrote:
Any idea why Creator seems to have stopped using this build? In recent tournaments, his go-to macro build at the moment seems to be being greedy with gas followed by an early robo bay and only getting forges about a minute or so after that.
I think it has to do with more top terrans getting used to his style and hitting timings with vikings where they pull all scvs and hit before storm tech is ready. Therefore he mixes in some variety-- like building one colossus without range for a little bit of safety but then bee-lining to storm and charge (so terran over-commits to vikings and is caught off guard with your quicker tech switch).
That being said, the creator style is still great and you should be able to use it on ladder successfully up through GM since it depends more on your mechanics/control/macro/scouting than the metagame or "build" itself.
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Italy12246 Posts
In general, heavy (3ish with range) colossus openings are used less and less because as Erik.TheRed said they leave you quite open to 2port viking timings, with or without scv's (even tho with scv's it's even more deadly), so people are favouring opening Templar instead of figuring out how to hold those timings with Colossi.
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I personally gave up on the heavy upgrades into colossus style because it was so hard to stay alive, much less defend drops efficiently and move out on the map to take expansions and *gasp* put pressure on Terran. Granted, I didn't work hard at perfecting my execution of the style, but it felt like too much tech spending to me. I'd imagine that the pros have similarly dialed back their upgrade spending in order to get a little more army and have a better shot at defending a reasonably timed third base.
And Teoita's right--people are also dialing back on their colossus production to get templar earlier. It still seems to be more common to go colossi into templar rather than templar into colossi, but we don't see players open with 5 colossi anymore. Now they usually get 1 or 2 colossi and then switch over to storm.
I'm not exactly sure why they bother with the 1 or 2 colossi. Support bay and thermal lance is lot of spending for tech you're not going to use much early on. I'd imagine it has to do with feeling safe with colossus openings and finding it difficult to go straight into templar.
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Italy12246 Posts
To be precise they either go 3 colossi with range (and die to 2port viking xD) or one without, i've never seen 1-2 with range in a competitive game forever.
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creator is starting to go robo bay before ups alot now and also I see him go for really fast 3rds in response to 1 rax fe on maps that have long long rush distances like cross entombed or metropolis.
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Does this build still work in HoTS?
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On May 15 2013 04:23 PvP wrote:
Does this build still work in HoTS?
Yes and no - the idea (double forge colo) still works but the most popular execution of it now is to get robo bay for colo faster (around 8:00 or earlier depending on early game), and then start the double forge immediately afterwards. Also, early game will obviously involve an early MSC and potentially less sentries, personally I use 2-3 instead of the 4 in this guide. The immortals are now also optional.
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On May 15 2013 05:11 rsvp wrote:Yes and no - the idea (double forge colo) still works but the most popular execution of it now is to get robo bay for colo faster (around 8:00 or earlier depending on early game), and then start the double forge immediately afterwards. Also, early game will obviously involve an early MSC and potentially less sentries, personally I use 2-3 instead of the 4 in this guide. The immortals are now also optional.
Hi RSVP!
Any replays where I could reference to what you describe to learn how the basic build order for this double-forge play with the HOTS variants you describe? Or a guide?
Sorry I am a returning SC2 player so not familiar with whats on the forum now
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On May 17 2013 13:35 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 05:11 rsvp wrote:On May 15 2013 04:23 PvP wrote:
Does this build still work in HoTS? Yes and no - the idea (double forge colo) still works but the most popular execution of it now is to get robo bay for colo faster (around 8:00 or earlier depending on early game), and then start the double forge immediately afterwards. Also, early game will obviously involve an early MSC and potentially less sentries, personally I use 2-3 instead of the 4 in this guide. The immortals are now also optional. Hi RSVP! Any replays where I could reference to what you describe to learn how the basic build order for this double-forge play with the HOTS variants you describe? Or a guide? Sorry I am a returning SC2 player so not familiar with whats on the forum now
Apparently I was wrong and most people still go double forge and then colo. You'd still get the colo much earlier than the original version of this guide, in time to defend against the first wave of medivacs. Check out of some Rain's games from proleague and GSL, he uses it a lot. Some of them might be on youtube if you don't have a season pass, try looking for rain vs last, innovation, or reality.
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On May 17 2013 13:50 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2013 13:35 bankai wrote:On May 15 2013 05:11 rsvp wrote:On May 15 2013 04:23 PvP wrote:
Does this build still work in HoTS? Yes and no - the idea (double forge colo) still works but the most popular execution of it now is to get robo bay for colo faster (around 8:00 or earlier depending on early game), and then start the double forge immediately afterwards. Also, early game will obviously involve an early MSC and potentially less sentries, personally I use 2-3 instead of the 4 in this guide. The immortals are now also optional. Hi RSVP! Any replays where I could reference to what you describe to learn how the basic build order for this double-forge play with the HOTS variants you describe? Or a guide? Sorry I am a returning SC2 player so not familiar with whats on the forum now Apparently I was wrong and most people still go double forge and then colo. You'd still get the colo much earlier than the original version of this guide, in time to defend against the first wave of medivacs. Check out of some Rain's games from proleague and GSL, he uses it a lot. Some of them might be on youtube if you don't have a season pass, try looking for rain vs last, innovation, or reality.
Ok thanks a lot for your guidance!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/monkscreaterprimepvtsty.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/f/844/monkscreaterprimepvtsty.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://professionalgaminglife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/CreatorPrime.png)
