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On December 08 2011 05:26 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 05:19 Teoita wrote:
First you bring my pvp to master's level, then my pvt :O I love you man, your guides are soooo good. The part about midgame scouting is especially awesome, i always fly an obs over and go "ok...he's...going bio i guess...cool".
On to double forge builds in general,i have a couple questions:
1) Lots of korean protoss players (especially Oz off the top of my head) go templar first off double forge anyway, often with a faster third. What do you think are the pros and cons of going templar vs colossus? I personally can't for the life of me figure out why the would prefer templar...
2) Months ago when double forge first started getting popular i remember seeing Tyler doing a 38-probe 6gate, but with double forge and 1-1 upgrades. How does this compare to a normal 6gate? Normally you try to hit right before medivacs come out, but i feel like if you wait until 1-1 you are a little too slow, so what is that timing trying to achive? 1. It's mostly a style thing. Another part of it is that templar don't require a robo, which many people don't get. Are you sure it's not single forge or later 2 forge into templar? Both of those make more sense.
I'm only a Platinum player, but from interviews and such it definitely seems to be a style thing. Korean Protosses seem to feel that Templar tech gives you more opportunity to show off your micro and win that way, whereas Colossus tech doesn't give you as much potential for micro. That's what I got from MC's and Oz's interviews in the past, anyway. I'll see if I can dig them up, but don't expect any wonders!
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Let me guess what the optimal T response is.
2 base marine tank banshee transition into mm + ebays.
The reason is that T needs to get starport level units to pressure immediately, but since it's so expensive, upgrades have to be delayed. This P build directly counters 3rax drop play and overruns with ups after defense. But tank banshee at 11m will force P to cancel ups and even out the timing.
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Italy12247 Posts
On December 08 2011 08:12 architecture wrote:
Let me guess what the optimal T response is.
2 base marine tank banshee transition into mm + ebays.
The reason is that T needs to get starport level units to pressure immediately, but since it's so expensive, upgrades have to be delayed. This P build directly counters 3rax drop play and overruns with ups after defense. But tank banshee at 11m will force P to cancel ups and even out the timing.
If you didn't open with some kind of banshee or hellion drop expand, you can't scout the double forges at 7-8 minutes and suddenly start teching up to factories and starports...besides, at 11 minutes 2/2 should be almost done 
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United States8477 Posts
On December 08 2011 07:55 JonnyLaw wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:32 tjd2191 wrote:
So.. uh. What exactly is terran supposed to do against this?
The seemingly intuitive response (early double engineering bays) doesn't actually seem to help that much. It just slows everything else down for terran allowing protoss to play greedier (just like you said). I'm excited about the build because it just feels like what protoss should be doing when they're looking for a longer game (taking advantage of chronoboost) but I just don't know what I do against it as a terran player. Help? D:
Maybe lots and lots of drops to pull the protoss apart in a manner that the upgrades don't make as large of a difference (small scale engagements) to delay until terran gets his own 3/3? Because just straight up pushes seems like a bad idea against this style. There are plenty of timings that terran can exploit against this type of build. But yes, you are correct that drops are the most effective. Take an early third and try to pick the protoss apart and force mistakes. Do not let your medivacs die. Otherwise ghost timings, or heavy viking bio pushes still work just like against every other build. The weakest point I found through playing this style is when the protoss has blink but is researching 2/2 and charge. That's a lot of money dumped into tech that has not yet come into play.
I don't agree that there are plenty of timings that terran can exploit but I suspect that you mean something different from what I'm interpreting. This build is completely safe and solid and no timings can kill it if Protoss reacts properly.
Ghost timings can be fended off and heavy viking bio pushes don't really work, because your opponent would have to predict you're going colossi and precounter you. Unlike straight colossi, this build uses colossi as a surprise and isn't particular vulnerable to "viking bio" pushes.
Since this is a safe, solid style, the best way to beat it is to outplay your opponent. Catch him offguard, spread him out thin with intelligent drops or go for the late game by keeping decently on par with upgrades and outplay him there.
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United States8477 Posts
On December 08 2011 08:12 architecture wrote:
Let me guess what the optimal T response is.
2 base marine tank banshee transition into mm + ebays.
The reason is that T needs to get starport level units to pressure immediately, but since it's so expensive, upgrades have to be delayed. This P build directly counters 3rax drop play and overruns with ups after defense. But tank banshee at 11m will force P to cancel ups and even out the timing.
2 base marine tank banshee can't be a response because you can't scout the build out in time to make that switch. To do a 2 base marine tank banshee push, you pretty much have to commit to marine tank banshee way before forges go up. And it's not even a blind counter, as the protoss can cancel forges if he spots marine tank banshee or he can choose to not do this strategy if he spots only marines.
This build doesn't directly counter 3 rax drop play aka standard play at all. It's just one viable build against it and usually the person who played better will win from these 2 builds.
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Regarding your point about the better player winning given those openings, I can agree that it's very map dependent. I would argue though that more concrete cards are in P's favor. Ups and production, and sufficient tech. T of course has potentially more punishing army and maybe 3rd.
Personally I think taking gas and getting an early factory before expo will become standard. It's remarkably versatile offensively and defensively, while almost every bio build has significant vulnerabilities ramping up through port after 3 rax.
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United States8477 Posts
On December 08 2011 06:52 Skyro wrote:
Nice guide. Some questions you may be able to help me out with:
1) When do you recommend doing the templar switch (outside of the double engi bay scenario you mentioned)? On your 4th base? After you're maxed and phase them in as you trade armies? Once it gets late game you pretty much need both Colossi + Templar to deal with the Terran deathball, but I see your point about the upgrade advantage.
2) I assume you grab the gasses at your 3rd right away?
3) It seems Creator also has a pretty standard time he grabs his fouth (I haven't watch all the games) as well (~17:00)?
4) What is the optimal stalker mix in your max army in your opinion?
It may be worth it to go into slightly more detail about the opening. For example it is very common to get the robo before the 2nd and 3rd gates if you scout no early aggression i.e. gasless FE.
Also another variation I've seen (I think it was Killer) is on huge maps they go DT first instead of colossi, presumably since DTs can keep aggression at bay by constantly forcing scans. What do you think about this variation?
1. Depends on the individual game. Ask yourself, how effective will pressuring with your archon based army be or will you have to play for the extreme late game?
2. Yes, always
3. Again, depends on the mix.
4. I usually end up with around 10-12. You want enough to be able to deter drops and vikings sniping your colossi. Of course zealots, immortals, archons, and colossi are better for the actual fight.
The guide would be much longer if I had to talk about the opening. Plus, a large variety of openings can transition into this style. I'm writing a 1 gate FE opening guide soon though.
You mean killer goes blink into dt into charge? That's really a totally different strategy.
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Great write-up! Don't have time to read all of it right now, but I thought I would also recommend looking at TSLKiller's style of double-robo. It's similar, but it might help to get some more examples. Who knows, just putting it out there. I'm pretty sure he used it in his Ro32 games from November. Pretty sure.
I really like the double-forge play, it sets up so nicely against a Terran late game, ESPECIALLY if you can keep them preoccupied enough with some harass to take away their focus and economy for upgrades. Can work so well if you can do that properly, in my experience.
Anyways, thanks for another good one NrG!
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Nice guide, I like the point about timing the forge's to finish just after obs can scout which I found very interesting.
I tend to play it a bit more greedy myself though, sometimes getting forge before robo if I feel especially confident they won't be playing banshee early, for example if they gasless FE'd. I think in general it's a good idea to stagger the forge upgrades. Getting 1 forge slightly before the second and starting armor a bit before weapons is safer and better imo, though it does require a little more attention macro wise. Instead of waiting for 300 minerals you can just spend 150 and then the second 150 later and you get the added benefit of being able to switch to just 1 forge a bit easier.
Also if you have a feeling they'll be doing a 2 base all-in variant i'd always go for fast colo, it's just safer imo and should beat almost any 2 base all-in.
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On December 08 2011 09:01 NrGmonk wrote:
You mean killer goes blink into dt into charge? That's really a totally different strategy.
Yeah well obviously if you go DTs after that point it plays a lot differently, but what I mean is that the opening up to that point is nearly identical with double forge, gateway timings, etc. except that he gets an earlier 3rd gas (I assume because of how gas intensive DTs are). IIRC I believe Oz did this to Nada on Daybreak and Killer did this to somebody (I forget, I think in the Ro32) on Calm Before the Storm in the GSL November Code S.
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Jesus christ someone give this guy a medal.
Nicely written guide. Easy to read, detailed, and above all, relevant all the way from the lowest to highest points of player skill.
Best protoss guide on TL currently.
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Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for the guide.
My PvT is pretty solid in the opening, but after I get my FE up, robo and gates, I typically just wing it with even successes and failures. Now I have some guidance on where to take the game after the opening and the understanding to go with it.
Thanks again,lots of information to improve my game play.
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The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no?
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out of interest could you post a guide detailing how you get to this point? for instance how you go about testing each possibility and refining your knowledge about the style/build to get to this final stage that you show us here?
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Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
User was warned for this post
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On December 08 2011 16:13 K3Nyy wrote:
The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no?
if terran does this then the protoss is suddenly able to become super greedy themselves and it would end up even in that sense
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On December 08 2011 17:16 unit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:13 K3Nyy wrote:
The main drawback I see in the double forge is the 3rd base. I see quite a few Protoss take their 3rd base around 13 mins which is really really late. If the Terran recognizes that Protoss is going double forge, can't they take their 3rd earlier? Then late game it would translate into a modest food lead for the Terran when he maxes which would nullify the upgrade advantage, no? if terran does this then the protoss is suddenly able to become super greedy themselves and it would end up even in that sense
Can they? Protoss is investing so much in forges/upgrades/twilight/blink and a lot of Stalkers. MMM are ridiculous cost efficient vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry and without the upgrades and Blink kicking in, I really don't think they'd be able to hold the expansion. Not to mention, there's actually no way to scout whether the Terran has a 3rd or not that early until Protoss gets a Robo, which is going to be quite a while away.
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On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Do you people just say "Thank you , thank you thank you for the awesome guide" etc. for the sake of increasing post count?
I see way too many "Oh great guide man well done!", " Someone give this guy a medal.".
Do you even read the guide or just to increase post count seriously?
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
Do you just complain about people to increase your post count?
Do you even read the guide or just (post and ask questions) to increase post count seriously?
On topic, the answer to your question is actually in the guide!
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Really on topic: Thanks for putting this guide together. I've been trying out the double forge style for quite a while but have often died to those ~10 minute timings or been significient behind in the midgame, I think this will help me to enter a more solid midgame.
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This build is great, although like others have said I have kinda been winging it after the FE and forges drop. This build is especially good on maps like Shakuras with a ramp at your nat as you can just FF the terran away and stop aggression. I have noticed that it is hard to take a third but its not really that big a deal. If I cannot take a third I just start colossus and continues upgrades. Your army is incredibly cost efficient and the terran cannot kill you with this composition. I then take a 3rd and 4th at the same time and control the middle while watching for drops. Your main and nat should not be mined out yet by this point and then you can instantly fully saturate your 3rd and 4th if this happens. From this point on I just aggressively expand and pick favorable engagements.
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Italy12247 Posts
On December 08 2011 17:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
On topic, how does this do vs mech?
From the guide:
Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech.
Edit: another question on the build: i always thought that when going double forge you should try to time the twilight council to finish right as 1/1 finishes, so you can start 2/2 right away. Is it that important to get it faster for faster blink/charge, like in this variation of the build?
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EPT
