EPT[G] SPeCiaLiST's TvP Special Tactics - Page 3
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nath
United States1788 Posts
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Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
On December 03 2011 03:45 nath wrote: I feel like 15 nexus gets good enough econ that even with damage dealt (5-6 probe loss), they will have more than enough units to defend and potentially 5 gates worth of production up when you attack. This is why he does a different build in response to a 15 nexus. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 03 2011 02:05 statikg wrote: This is basically exactly iechoics old build but with +2marines in the drop and the addition of alternative plans. The gas steal is also new which might be key. I actually got 4gated the other day for the first time in like a month, caught me completely off gaurd and exposed my lazy scouting of 1gas = expand. Gotta get that SCV out before the stalker, go hide it, and double back to check that expo. Like you know you should! We all lose to four gates, just requires a quick rewatch and more cautious play. As I'm sure you already know lol. Just felt like typing it <3 | ||
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joeschmo
United States167 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On December 02 2011 17:15 Tazerenix wrote: From my recent discussion with SEA GM players i've learned that apparently mass blink stalker is actually the best way to deal with the 1-1-1, and even more so with a hellion variant. You can sit there and pick off marines and such and just blink away without taking damage, potentially forcing the pdd in the middle of the map. And even when they plant the pdd down, with 20 or more stalkers you can actually focus it down in 2 shots. Since this push doesn't have any tanks, the amount of damage you take from the marines and hellions will be so small (with good micro) that you can potentially ruin the whole push right in the middle of the map. I've definitely seen it done successfully, but I wouldn't say it's the "best" way to deal with 1-1-1. Just another option. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 03 2011 01:59 NrGmonk wrote: Disagree here. Ever since the Bfh nerf, zealots can do pretty well vs hellions in a mech composition. Even goody has said that mech isn't viable anymore. Whoops. You might be right. I haven't fought large numbers of hellions since the BFH nerf. And that's probably because they don't work anymore. | ||
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Kamikiri
United States1319 Posts
On December 03 2011 11:11 joeschmo wrote: garbage build, trash plyr who all ins every game, any terran can make up an all in build, trying to make it into a strategy from what you scouted doesn't earn you any more merit whatsoever. God, how can you guys reading this not be pissed beyond words? this is absolute trash, really? on tl forums you post a freakin all in build? no terran who's worth a shit wants to learn an all in build. Go watch Jinro play a Protoss you noobie User was temp banned for this post. Specialist is not a trash player, he is a pretty solid GM terran. This is the strategy forums where people post their strategies, in this case he is posting an all-in build he has come up with. You really shouldn't flame someone for playing the game different from you. That being said when I have played Specialist on the ladder he wasn't an exclusively all-in player. | ||
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clever_us
United States329 Posts
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Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote: A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck. Yeah! It is ridiculous how much crap terran players have to take. Seriously , how hard can it be? Don´t keep nerfing mech when 99% of all terrans have huge problems playing "standard" TvP. Revert the fucking tank nerf. Won´t change much in TvZ since tanks already overkills lings and banes hard , TvT will lean more towards mech and marine tank will be replaced by marine marauder tank. Then you open up a solid way to play TvP and thus making the TvP matchup less boring to watch and less stupid to play generating a bigger interest for SC2 as an e-sport resulting in more games sold etc blablabla. The siege tank should be a ballin' unit , just deal with it! Blue flame hellions was designed to counter mass light units as zealots , deal with it! Thors should not have energy for a gimmicky upgrade that was nerfed into oblivion , remove energy bar and the upgrade. I drop a thor in your base , deal with it! The SC2 scene lacks high profile terrans that can speak for the majority with great credibility. We need more players like avilo and Jinro that are outspoken by the mess that is TvP. Blizzard giving in to the protoss mafia on SotG by givning protoss an harass unit in HotS is a reason why we need high profile terrans telling people what is what. Like protoss ever needed more harass options when their basic supply provider , the pylon allows them to harass in all stages of the game. If that is not enough you can make a warp prism , phoenix or dark templars. Why not a high templar drop at opponents far away expansions ? ... Made me wanna vomit  Feels like logical reasoning and discussions in a civilized tone with well-grounded arguments is not the right way to affect game balance. Whining seems like a better option so far Keep up the good work avilo! User was warned for this post | ||
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
On December 03 2011 18:25 one-one-one wrote: Yeah! It is ridiculous how much crap terran players have to take. Seriously , how hard can it be? Don´t keep nerfing mech when 99% of all terrans have huge problems playing "standard" TvP. Revert the fucking tank nerf. Won´t change much in TvZ since tanks already overkills lings and banes hard , TvT will lean more towards mech and marine tank will be replaced by marine marauder tank. Then you open up a solid way to play TvP and thus making the TvP matchup less boring to watch and less stupid to play generating a bigger interest for SC2 as an e-sport resulting in more games sold etc blablabla. The siege tank should be a ballin' unit , just deal with it! Blue flame hellions was designed to counter mass light units as zealots , deal with it! Thors should not have energy for a gimmicky upgrade that was nerfed into oblivion , remove energy bar and the upgrade. I drop a thor in your base , deal with it! The SC2 scene lacks high profile terrans that can speak for the majority with great credibility. We need more players like avilo and Jinro that are outspoken by the mess that is TvP. Blizzard giving in to the protoss mafia on SotG by givning protoss an harass unit in HotS is a reason why we need high profile terrans telling people what is what. Like protoss ever needed more harass options when their basic supply provider , the pylon allows them to harass in all stages of the game. If that is not enough you can make a warp prism , phoenix or dark templars. Why not a high templar drop at opponents far away expansions ? ... Made me wanna vomit Feels like logical reasoning and discussions in a civilized tone with well-grounded arguments is not the right way to affect game balance. Whining seems like a better option so far Keep up the good work avilo! What did I just read... 1. Siege tanks were broken, if they did that much damage it would TOTALLY break TvT and TvZ, Mech would be entirely unstoppable in both matchups as Roaches and Marines would melt instantly to tanks. Blue flame hellions do counter zealots, i'm truly sorry that your 8 hellions don't kill 20 zealots, you actually need more than that. The Thor's strike cannon timing attacks were ridiculous, it meant that the thor directly countered the two units designed to counter it, the immortal and colossus. 2. Both phoenix and dark templar are shut down by a single turret and a planetary fortress, making them useless. High templar drops are something that needs to be explored but at the point in the game where they become viable vikings can pretty quickly be made to shutdown any warp prism harass. Also, did you just call pylons overpowered? | ||
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Speake
United States494 Posts
On December 03 2011 11:48 Kamikiri wrote: Specialist is not a trash player, he is a pretty solid GM terran. This is the strategy forums where people post their strategies, in this case he is posting an all-in build he has come up with. You really shouldn't flame someone for playing the game different from you. That being said when I have played Specialist on the ladder he wasn't an exclusively all-in player. He actually is exclusively an all-in player. This guy is famous for just pulling all of his scvs if he gets behind by 5 supply and praying for a win with a random allin. Ive played him plenty of times, enough to know this 100% true | ||
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CrusaderT2
4 Posts
Just curious, out of few times this build lost, what was the reason behind it?? | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
2. Both phoenix and dark templar are shut down by a single turret and a planetary fortress, making them useless. High templar drops are something that needs to be explored but at the point in the game where they become viable vikings can pretty quickly be made to shutdown any warp prism harass. Also, did you just call pylons overpowered? Funny, you have an innate ability to warp those pesky buggers PAST a turret, into my base, where there isn't detection and continue your DT harass. You can keep them at naturals so I have to scan and then land. Keep them by the minerals. I maynard scvs, and call mules, you kill the mules. ezpz And I'm with him. I wish my food unit flew, or changed into a detector, or could warp units in to it... I can raise and lower mine!!!! lol Joking aside. Mech does need tweaks in TvP, that wouldn't change TvT or TvZ which is where the issue lies. TvT mech is almost perfect IMO as it's a circle motion of strats. Bio > mech > bio mech > bio. Perfect in my opinion. Mech in TvZ is very hard to execute but obviously isn't broken or too weak, as top terrans are still winning with it. I think changing tank damage is a joke, as it would completely make tank/anything the go to unit comp. You wouldn't micro to win, you'd position and sit to win. I already personally think mech is a gay play style, but that's because I'm in your face never 200/200 kinda player. TvP is difficult. I'm personally using bio mech now, but cutting tanks out once archon or chargelot enter the stadium. It's working great. A 100 food ish push at 10:30 with 3-4 tanks, 2 medics, and a bio force with stim shields shells? Yes please. Went collsai? It's okay. My range 13 > range 9. I can safely third, and then go into a bio play with a small wind in my sails kind of feeling. Straight bio requires great control, but it's rewarding in my mind. What's rewarding about it? Bio micro vs protoss micro is night and day in my opinion, don't quote and tell me differently as it's what I think. Studder stepping, splitting, concave to concave drop backs, landing EMPs, dodging forcefields --- it's just awesome. It makes it worth while and fun. Now beating their army, and having 20 supply of fresh 3/0/3 chargelots coming at you is not at all fun... | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:28 Tazerenix wrote: What did I just read... 1. Siege tanks were broken, if they did that much damage it would TOTALLY break TvT and TvZ, Mech would be entirely unstoppable in both matchups as Roaches and Marines would melt instantly to tanks. Blue flame hellions do counter zealots, i'm truly sorry that your 8 hellions don't kill 20 zealots, you actually need more than that. The Thor's strike cannon timing attacks were ridiculous, it meant that the thor directly countered the two units designed to counter it, the immortal and colossus. 2. Both phoenix and dark templar are shut down by a single turret and a planetary fortress, making them useless. High templar drops are something that needs to be explored but at the point in the game where they become viable vikings can pretty quickly be made to shutdown any warp prism harass. Also, did you just call pylons overpowered? Sorry mods if my previous post drifted away a bit. It is quite common in TvP threads though, since creative strategies like this seem to expose underlying problems in the game. I have myself done a build very similar to iEchoics 1-1-2 opening which I transformed into an all in version making it almost identical to the build in this post. I have also experience with TvP mech. In both strategies you use hellions and posters claiming ignorant stuff about hellions has to be addressed. So I will answer to the guy above , but before I will stay on the main topic of this thread: This build used to work extremely well giving me like an 80% win rate in TvP on diamond level. That was before the 1-1-1 builds became very popular. This build grew in popultarity to the extent that most protosses could identify it and respond to it making it less effective. Phoenix can work quite good vs this build by slowing down your advancement towards your opponents base by forcing the terran player to lay down a PDD mid map. If they expanded they only have to stall until they have enough units and they will win. The OP is onto something good by noticing that this build can be masked as a traditional 1-1-1 by hiding the second starport and building a fake tech-lab on the factory or something. This opens up a new way to abuse the protoss since they dont know if they have to make zealots/immortals to counter tanks or something else to deal with banshees. So this build may be revived cos of meta-gaming possibilities. The phoenix response can be dealt it by doing crap like getting cloak and sniping observers , it then comes down to some silly micro to decide who will come out ahead. Now to the guy who replied to my first post: Tanks doing 50 dmg to all armour types would not be better vs roaches. Marines with combat shields would not die to one tank blast. Marines would however take more damage in clumps so when the tank counts go up you would probably have to mix in marauders as you already do today vs mech. Tank splash would also do more damage to clumped lings , making it even more important for zerg players to spread out their stuff and think twice before engaging tanks. It is correct that hellions in critical mass absolutely murder zealots even after patch. What has changed is that the number of required hellions has grown. Protoss could even before the patch abuse mech mechanics by just warping in the correct units. In a big engagement you typically loose many hellions and a few tanks and thors. After the patch the time window to punish a terran player for lack of hellions after a big battle has grown. Just mass warp-in zealots! Another more obvious thing is that more hellions needed means less supply for tanks and thors. On the thor issue we both seem to agree, so I don´t understand your response. My suggestion was to remove the strike cannon upgrade for the reasons you specified while also removing thor energy. This , and the fact that you ask yourself: "What did I just read..." , is maybe an indication that you didn´t read properly before responding because nowhere in my post do I say that pylons are OP. I was merely pointing out the great harass abilities protoss players have. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
he actually doesn't stop laddering I think. | ||
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pingy[wen]
United States157 Posts
On December 03 2011 20:31 unSpeake wrote: He actually is exclusively an all-in player. This guy is famous for just pulling all of his scvs if he gets behind by 5 supply and praying for a win with a random allin. Ive played him plenty of times, enough to know this 100% true he's actually NOT exclusively an all-in player. He is famous for pulling scvs and that may be his playstyle, but he does have winning macro games (against competent pro/semipro players). There are plenty of his replays out there if you dont believe me. | ||
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Kruxxen
United States149 Posts
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pingy[wen]
United States157 Posts
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sephroth
United States7 Posts
On December 01 2011 15:31 SpecialistSc wrote: Intro 8. What you need to be careful of + Show Spoiler + C. Collosus tech – If you spot colossus tech, you simply have to start making Vikings instead of banshees. The attack timing is the same (after expo). Actually banshee's do more dps than vikings do and this was a build based on the Polt push (except no hellions). Banshee's also give you an advantage over vikings because you can position them better and if your micro is good enough killing their observer will cripple a toss's army against banshee's giving you an edge over the colossus tech. The problem with this build is that with hellion production: a) you have fewer marines which are needed to target fire down any observers. b) or your push comes later due to less ground units to soak up any damage from the stalkers, etc. Polt push timing is about the 9 minute mark, where you push when you have 10-15 marines, 1 raven, 3-4 banshee's with cloak. It can be hard countered by any proxy VR and/or pheonix tech and also early blink stalkers. A FFE is not quite a hard counter but with cannons out it is hard to easily punish your opponent for being greedy. I think if hellions are produced in this build then you need to use your first initial hellions to keep the toss in their base and prevent any aggressive pushes until you can get forces up. Smaller maps would benefit from the hellions than larger maps, and also giving you map control early game preventing any probes from putting forward pylons out. The problem with hellions in TvP is that they are so weak now. Even against zealots their dps is insignificant and I would much rather have more marines out at the time of a push than hellions. | ||
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