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Intro
Hi, I am specialist. I have 3 Grandmasters accounts in North American server. I wanted to share this strategy for fellows terrans that are having hard time vs protoss.
This build is exclusively made/used by me, inspired by my former mentor, FourKWarden. The main reason I am posting this is so that possibly protosses will be aware of this and come up with some hard counters so that I stop my addiction to this build. This build has worked vs all NA protosses except only a handful.
This is a execution-oriented strategy, requiring high apm and decision making. The plus side of this build is that it is very flexible to w/e the protoss tries to do. It is pretty much all-in build because scvs are integral part of the battle, however it’s just not blind all in where you cross your fingers and hope for the best. The reactionary side of this build makes the death push to be very strong vs any kind of composition that protoss throws at you. The foundation of this build arises from the fact that 1 base terran overpowers 1 base protoss. With proper micro and decision making, this 1 base build shall triumph vs all protosses in NA. As you read through this build, I hope you will learn something.
Before you bash me for posting an all-in build, please be mindful that this build is flexible and gets you the win at high percentage rate even at the highest NA server level. I think just because it’s all-insh, you should not hate terran players because it’s a strategy that works best for terran (same argument can go to say that it is nearly impossible to beat protoss death ball), at least in my own opinion.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +10 depot
12 rax
13 scout
13 gas
15 orbital
15 1st marine
16 gas steal
17 2nd marine
18 2nd depot
20 factory
21 bunker
22 3rd depot
25 2nd gas
reactor on rax after 3rd marine
28 starport
32 4th depot
2nd starport after medivac from the 1st starport (around 40ish)
Load medivac with 3 hellions and 2 marines and drop harass
Take tech lab into first starport after medevac
Get raven as soon as the tech lab from 1st starport finishes
Keep making marines/hellions/banshees
Attack at appropriate time*
***while doing all this, keep constantly making marines/hellions/banshees****
The Pointers
1. Scout @ around 12-13 scv, so that you can steal one of the protoss’s gas. This benefits you in several ways. First, it does not cost much as you can stop fully making the structure and cancel it. Second, early scout leads you to notice proxy gate cheese rushes very quickly. Third, it prevents toss from going high tech route, which is really helpful. Fourth, it usually leads protsses to do one of the following: 4 gate all in or fast expo. Both of these options are perfect for terran for a set-up at earlier stage of the game for this specific strategy.
2. The drop should consist of 1 medivac with 3 hellions and 2 marines. This drop is very powerful and you need to do only marginal damage for 1 death push that you will execute later to perfectly work out. I would say killing around 5 probes will be sufficient damage for rush to work. With proper micro, this should be an easy task. The added bonus to this is that you can also outright finish protoss with this, if you kill enough probes.
A. How to properly micro the drop
+ Show Spoiler +i. You have 2 marines and 3 hellions. The 2 marines are the “distractors” and 3 hellions are the probe roasters. If you see protoss early exposing, try to drop 2 marines behind expo’s minerals and cleverly drop 3 hellions inside the protoss main. Many protoss will 1 A move entire army to marines and get frustrated with hellions inside the main. If they don’t expand, try to drop at the edge of protoss’s base and let 2 marines target fire the pylon, then move the hellions to the mineral line. This is to ensure that you get maximum amount of damage done. If they do not target marines first, you get at least a pylon down. If they do target marines first, the chance for probe roasting is dramatically increased. Lastly, make sure to shift-rally back the medivac to your main after dropping all three hellions, as it will prove very useful during the death ball push.
3. You get the raven first to save up enough mana for point defense drone. When the death push occurs, it is still around only early to mid stage of the game. Thus, the pdd will practically deny all the stalker/phoenix shots that can kill banshees.
4. Get the bunker at the ramp after first 3 marines. This build is very vulnerable to 4 gateway all-in. Thus, having a bunker at the ramp helps a lot. It is because as soon as protoss notices you have a bunker at the ramp with scout, they will most likely give up trying to all in.
5. Be proactive with your hellions. Hellions are really mobile so they can give you a lot of information quickly. The most important role for them is to spot when the expo goes down. When both you and protoss stay in 1 base for a long time, be suspicious and scout with hellions for any hidden ninja expansions. If you spot the expansion, which is most likely be out at protoss’s natural, your timing is NOW. Also, take watch towers with hellions, because you will have at least 4 and they can take out even a single stalker.
6. Timing: The attack timing occurs whenever protoss throws down the expansion. Let’s attack after protoss completely finishes their nexus and move some parts of army there. This is so at multiple reasons. First, you already dropped with hellions so protoss will be insecure with his main and put some army there, splitting his ball of army. Second, with scvs tanking/repairing, it is virtually impossible to lose vs toss just as he expands. Third, it is harder to fight up the ramp than to fight in a plain field. Exception to this is when protoss goes for early DT/HT build. As soon as you see protoss is going on that route, you can just push despite them not exposing and get rather an ez win b A moving up the ramp.
7. Push Composition
+ Show Spoiler +A. Sets of banshees from 2 ports – annihilating all protoss army on ground
B. SCVS – bring at least 12 to all – tanking the damage (set all on auto-repair if you bring less than 13, and set only some to repair if more than 13)
C. Hellions – roasting zealots and probes
D. Marines – countering basically everything (DERP)
E. 1 medivac from the drop – full of energy, extreme support
8. What you need to be careful of
+ Show Spoiler +A. Proxy gateways – you should be able to defend this easily with 1 rax only. I can make tips guide on this. Basically you want to make depot near one gas and make bunker there. With gas, make 2 concussive shelled marauders after making 2-3 marines in the bunker, then proceed with the build (make bunker @ ramp, reactor for rax, factory making hellions, etc)
B. Early phoenix – Don’t let this confuse you. As soon as you spot stargate tech, swap starport’s tech lab with factory. Make 3-4 tanks with siege mode. Stop making banshees and get Viking now with left over gas (gas priority goes to tanks). Bring everything you have after 3-4 tanks and you will win.
C. Collosus tech – If you spot colossus tech, you simply have to start making Vikings instead of banshees. The attack timing is the same (after expo).
D. Blink stalkers – you just have to be extra careful while moving to protoss’s base, but in straight engagement, your army will be guaranteed to overwhelm him.
E. Force fields – pdd hard counters it
F. HT tech – just go before he has the storm upgrade
G. DT tech – most easy win you can get because you will have denied early fast 2nd gas and ravens are up relatively fast. Push with all your army as soon as you detect them.
H. Void ray rush – with marines, medivac, and bunker, it should be relatively easy to hold off. Get Vikings from the starport instead of banshees.
I. Early warp prism inside your base rush – Get marines off your bunker ASAP. Cancel raven to get as fast viking as possible. You will need to pull some scvs. Do not over extend yourself. Stay calm and defend, trying to lose as few scvs as possible.
J. Insanely tight protoss building placement – if protoss sets building up in a way the hellions kill 0 probes (cough cough ogsVINES), sheer amount of toss units off 2 base can kill your 1 base push. If you absolutely decide that you can do no damage, just bring your stuff back.
K. Classic 4 gate all in – Just have to be prepared. Defend and it’s 100% win (with a bunker you probably will).
9. What maps to veto?
+ Show Spoiler +A. Antiga and abysmal caverns (big) and Tal-darim (no ramp)
10. How to properly engage in battle
+ Show Spoiler +A. Pull scvs to the front: select some to auto repair (mules are still going strong)
B. Raven’s the priority: make sure to put pdd near the expansion so that you will at least safely destroy expansion if toss decides to back up to the ramp of the main
C. Don’t forget to A move
D. If you unexpectedly notice a few phoenixes out of nowhere, target fire them right fast with the marines.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Conclusion
Shoot me a pm with any questions you might have with the build. I will also watch some replays if you want a critique on execution side of the build vs real opponents. Also, a reminder is that don't get addicted to this build like me! =)
Check out the execution of this build @ justin.tv/specialistsc !
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From a protoss standpoint i think that only seeing a bunker is fine with 4gating. 2 sentries make it easy to break a bunker if there are few units behind it. I have been 4gating recently against any terran that has a bunker and few units around the time a 4 gate would hit. IMO easiest way to deal with the 1-1-1 we have been seeing so often.
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On December 01 2011 15:38 Ellcrys wrote:
From a protoss standpoint i think that only seeing a bunker is fine with 4gating. 2 sentries make it easy to break a bunker if there are few units behind it. I have been 4gating recently against any terran that has a bunker and few units around the time a 4 gate would hit. IMO easiest way to deal with the 1-1-1 we have been seeing so often.
Safe way to prevent losing to 4 gate is simply to add 2nd bunker, I think that will be fine at Master level and below.
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nice guide; thanks for showing me your tactics now you cant use it on me =D
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usually you can sniff out a 4 gate from a early gate expo type build. this is a good build and there are several variations of it out there.
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Thanks for posting the build. I might start to use All ins against toss for first time. so bad winrate against P atm.
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You killed me on ladder w/this and I was furious  It hard counters the blind-counter to 1-1-1 (immortals, zealots, few stalkers) and so if protoss skimps on scouting at all they can kind of just lose...
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Totally interested in this. I'll be trying it out tonight.
Also, your first replay isn't linked properly.
http://drop.sc/67027
Cheers.
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Guide seems good, build seems like it's pretty strong, I've faced something similar before. Made me sad.
However, I do not care who you are, Special Tactics is reserved for Protoss. Take your blasphemous thread titles elsewhere.
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I do not like 1 base play =(
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You mentioned that the timing is whenever the protoss finishes their expansion. What if they go nexus first or 1 gate nexus? Do you still move out with what little you have?
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On December 01 2011 17:04 Zoku wrote:
You mentioned that the timing is whenever the protoss finishes their expansion. What if they go nexus first or 1 gate nexus? Do you still move out with what little you have?
I go 2 rax reactor marines + tank rush with 3-4 tanks instead
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Haha, you offered to give lessons then didn't XD
No hard feelings tt.
This build doesn't SEEM strong, but it sure must be in execution
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Wow what a crazy all in. Do you have any good builds that involved 2-3 bases?
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On December 01 2011 17:15 ReachTheSky wrote:
Wow what a crazy all in. Do you have any good builds that involved 2-3 bases?
no need
/sarcasm <3
i only say that because ive done this 3 times now, E-Z CHee-Z wins
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oh my fucking god, this build looks SO FUCKING SEXY
THANK YOU for sharing!
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Ya so far I've defeated a blink stalker after 3gate expo, 1 base colossus, and 2 base colossus. the colossus are tough though =\ cant 1a for any of the games
,top 8 masters for what its worth
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lol.......... well now we know inflime is a maphacker lulz
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On December 01 2011 17:10 LiLu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 17:04 Zoku wrote:
You mentioned that the timing is whenever the protoss finishes their expansion. What if they go nexus first or 1 gate nexus? Do you still move out with what little you have? I go 2 rax reactor marines + tank rush with 3-4 tanks instead
So no starport and banshee if he goes for 1gate fe or nexus first?
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On December 01 2011 18:29 Tailss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 17:10 LiLu wrote:On December 01 2011 17:04 Zoku wrote:
You mentioned that the timing is whenever the protoss finishes their expansion. What if they go nexus first or 1 gate nexus? Do you still move out with what little you have? I go 2 rax reactor marines + tank rush with 3-4 tanks instead So no starport and banshee if he goes for 1gate fe or nexus first?
yea for nexus first
it depends on the map and the distance of the rush, for 1 gate fe
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E. Force fields – pdd hard counters it
Uh...how so?
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On December 01 2011 18:44 ZenithM wrote:Uh...how so?
with force field you have to move extra close to shoot ground army & banshees and hinders zealots to do any dmg
it's trivial tho
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On December 01 2011 17:10 LiLu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 17:04 Zoku wrote:
You mentioned that the timing is whenever the protoss finishes their expansion. What if they go nexus first or 1 gate nexus? Do you still move out with what little you have? I go 2 rax reactor marines + tank rush with 3-4 tanks instead
Do you mean the kind of 2 rax tank push MVP does a lot? Or 2 barracks both with reactors and push with 3-4 tanks?
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On December 01 2011 18:56 Zoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 17:10 LiLu wrote:On December 01 2011 17:04 Zoku wrote:
You mentioned that the timing is whenever the protoss finishes their expansion. What if they go nexus first or 1 gate nexus? Do you still move out with what little you have? I go 2 rax reactor marines + tank rush with 3-4 tanks instead Do you mean the kind of 2 rax tank push MVP does a lot? Or 2 barracks both with reactors and push with 3-4 tanks?
i use latter one (MKP used to do it a lot)
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Also, a side note. Aren't you part of convergence gaming?
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On December 01 2011 18:59 Zoku wrote:
Also, a side note. Aren't you part of convergence gaming?
I found this recent rep, just for you.
http://drop.sc/67057
No i'm not affilated to CVG, whatsoever.
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Nice build. Can you provide replays against:
- 1 gate FE
- nexus first
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On December 01 2011 19:30 Snowbear wrote:
Nice build. Can you provide replays against:
- 1 gate FE
- nexus first
I usually do this, http://drop.sc/67057
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This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger.
This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots.
Here's a game I just played against this build:
http://drop.sc/67279
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Making a quick skim through this 1-1-1 all in guide I've managed to pull it off the first time around. Obviously from above ^^ the 2nd time didn't work too well 
http://drop.sc/67307
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On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279
From my recent discussion with SEA GM players i've learned that apparently mass blink stalker is actually the best way to deal with the 1-1-1, and even more so with a hellion variant. You can sit there and pick off marines and such and just blink away without taking damage, potentially forcing the pdd in the middle of the map. And even when they plant the pdd down, with 20 or more stalkers you can actually focus it down in 2 shots. Since this push doesn't have any tanks, the amount of damage you take from the marines and hellions will be so small (with good micro) that you can potentially ruin the whole push right in the middle of the map.
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On December 02 2011 17:15 Tazerenix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 From my recent discussion with SEA GM players i've learned that apparently mass blink stalker is actually the best way to deal with the 1-1-1, and even more so with a hellion variant. You can sit there and pick off marines and such and just blink away without taking damage, potentially forcing the pdd in the middle of the map. And even when they plant the pdd down, with 20 or more stalkers you can actually focus it down in 2 shots. Since this push doesn't have any tanks, the amount of damage you take from the marines and hellions will be so small (with good micro) that you can potentially ruin the whole push right in the middle of the map.
Could you produce a replay with this counter? I am skeptically a little bit.
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On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279
A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao.
Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck.
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On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck.
Hellions without pre-ignitor in small numbers don't really counter moderate numbers of zealots when both compositions are mixed. In larger numbers and with pre-ignitor, the zealots melt.
For a 10 minute timing attack with mostly marines and banshees, a few hellions don't deter a zealot composition.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 03 2011 01:48 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote:On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck. Hellions without pre-ignitor in small numbers don't really counter moderate numbers of zealots when both compositions are mixed. In larger numbers and with pre-ignitor, the zealots melt. For a 10 minute timing attack with mostly marines and banshees, a few hellions don't deter a zealot composition.
Disagree here. Ever since the Bfh nerf, zealots can do pretty well vs hellions in a mech composition. Even goody has said that mech isn't viable anymore.
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This is basically exactly iechoics old build but with +2marines in the drop and the addition of alternative plans. The gas steal is also new which might be key.
I actually got 4gated the other day for the first time in like a month, caught me completely off gaurd and exposed my lazy scouting of 1gas = expand.
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I feel like 15 nexus gets good enough econ that even with damage dealt (5-6 probe loss), they will have more than enough units to defend and potentially 5 gates worth of production up when you attack.
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On December 03 2011 03:45 nath wrote:
I feel like 15 nexus gets good enough econ that even with damage dealt (5-6 probe loss), they will have more than enough units to defend and potentially 5 gates worth of production up when you attack.
This is why he does a different build in response to a 15 nexus.
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On December 03 2011 02:05 statikg wrote:
This is basically exactly iechoics old build but with +2marines in the drop and the addition of alternative plans. The gas steal is also new which might be key.
I actually got 4gated the other day for the first time in like a month, caught me completely off gaurd and exposed my lazy scouting of 1gas = expand.
Gotta get that SCV out before the stalker, go hide it, and double back to check that expo. Like you know you should! We all lose to four gates, just requires a quick rewatch and more cautious play.
As I'm sure you already know lol. Just felt like typing it <3
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garbage build, trash plyr who all ins every game, any terran can make up an all in build, trying to make it into a strategy from what you scouted doesn't earn you any more merit whatsoever. God, how can you guys reading this not be pissed beyond words? this is absolute trash, really? on tl forums you post a freakin all in build? no terran who's worth a shit wants to learn an all in build. Go watch Jinro play a Protoss you noobie
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 02 2011 17:15 Tazerenix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 From my recent discussion with SEA GM players i've learned that apparently mass blink stalker is actually the best way to deal with the 1-1-1, and even more so with a hellion variant. You can sit there and pick off marines and such and just blink away without taking damage, potentially forcing the pdd in the middle of the map. And even when they plant the pdd down, with 20 or more stalkers you can actually focus it down in 2 shots. Since this push doesn't have any tanks, the amount of damage you take from the marines and hellions will be so small (with good micro) that you can potentially ruin the whole push right in the middle of the map.
I've definitely seen it done successfully, but I wouldn't say it's the "best" way to deal with 1-1-1. Just another option.
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On December 03 2011 01:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 01:48 kcdc wrote:On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote:On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck. Hellions without pre-ignitor in small numbers don't really counter moderate numbers of zealots when both compositions are mixed. In larger numbers and with pre-ignitor, the zealots melt. For a 10 minute timing attack with mostly marines and banshees, a few hellions don't deter a zealot composition. Disagree here. Ever since the Bfh nerf, zealots can do pretty well vs hellions in a mech composition. Even goody has said that mech isn't viable anymore.
Whoops. You might be right. I haven't fought large numbers of hellions since the BFH nerf. And that's probably because they don't work anymore.
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On December 03 2011 11:11 joeschmo wrote:
garbage build, trash plyr who all ins every game, any terran can make up an all in build, trying to make it into a strategy from what you scouted doesn't earn you any more merit whatsoever. God, how can you guys reading this not be pissed beyond words? this is absolute trash, really? on tl forums you post a freakin all in build? no terran who's worth a shit wants to learn an all in build. Go watch Jinro play a Protoss you noobie
User was temp banned for this post.
Specialist is not a trash player, he is a pretty solid GM terran. This is the strategy forums where people post their strategies, in this case he is posting an all-in build he has come up with. You really shouldn't flame someone for playing the game different from you. That being said when I have played Specialist on the ladder he wasn't an exclusively all-in player.
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SPECIALIST FIIIIGHTINGG! Wish you were still at Emory, buddy- we'd be kicking so much ass in the CSL right now. Def gonna use this when I play random!
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Okay just one more question. As I was doing this build I've seen some pretty different responses that haven't been mentioned in the thread yet. While doing this build, a protoss goes for like a 2-3 gate robo and then switches to pheonix off of one base. Should I keep turtling and wait for him to expand first and then attack? because i tried to attack regardless if he didn't even expand, would you say that's a mistake?
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On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck.
Yeah!
It is ridiculous how much crap terran players have to take.
Seriously , how hard can it be? Don´t keep nerfing mech when 99% of all terrans have huge problems playing "standard" TvP.
Revert the fucking tank nerf. Won´t change much in TvZ since tanks already overkills lings and banes hard , TvT will lean more towards mech and marine tank will be replaced by marine marauder tank.
Then you open up a solid way to play TvP and thus making the TvP matchup less boring to watch and less stupid to play generating a bigger interest for SC2 as an e-sport resulting in more games sold etc blablabla.
The siege tank should be a ballin' unit , just deal with it!
Blue flame hellions was designed to counter mass light units as zealots , deal with it!
Thors should not have energy for a gimmicky upgrade that was nerfed into oblivion , remove energy bar and the upgrade.
I drop a thor in your base , deal with it!
The SC2 scene lacks high profile terrans that can speak for the majority with great credibility. We need more players like avilo and Jinro that are outspoken by the mess that is TvP.
Blizzard giving in to the protoss mafia on SotG by givning protoss an harass unit in HotS is a reason why we need high profile terrans telling people what is what.
Like protoss ever needed more harass options when their basic supply provider , the pylon allows them to harass in all stages of the game. If that is not enough you can make a warp prism , phoenix or dark templars.
Why not a high templar drop at opponents far away expansions ? ...
Made me wanna vomit
Feels like logical reasoning and discussions in a civilized tone with well-grounded arguments is not the right way to affect game balance.
Whining seems like a better option so far
Keep up the good work avilo!
User was warned for this post
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On December 03 2011 18:25 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote:On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck. Yeah! It is ridiculous how much crap terran players have to take. Seriously , how hard can it be? Don´t keep nerfing mech when 99% of all terrans have huge problems playing "standard" TvP. Revert the fucking tank nerf. Won´t change much in TvZ since tanks already overkills lings and banes hard , TvT will lean more towards mech and marine tank will be replaced by marine marauder tank. Then you open up a solid way to play TvP and thus making the TvP matchup less boring to watch and less stupid to play generating a bigger interest for SC2 as an e-sport resulting in more games sold etc blablabla. The siege tank should be a ballin' unit , just deal with it! Blue flame hellions was designed to counter mass light units as zealots , deal with it! Thors should not have energy for a gimmicky upgrade that was nerfed into oblivion , remove energy bar and the upgrade. I drop a thor in your base , deal with it! The SC2 scene lacks high profile terrans that can speak for the majority with great credibility. We need more players like avilo and Jinro that are outspoken by the mess that is TvP. Blizzard giving in to the protoss mafia on SotG by givning protoss an harass unit in HotS is a reason why we need high profile terrans telling people what is what. Like protoss ever needed more harass options when their basic supply provider , the pylon allows them to harass in all stages of the game. If that is not enough you can make a warp prism , phoenix or dark templars. Why not a high templar drop at opponents far away expansions ? ... Made me wanna vomit Feels like logical reasoning and discussions in a civilized tone with well-grounded arguments is not the right way to affect game balance. Whining seems like a better option so far Keep up the good work avilo!
What did I just read...
1. Siege tanks were broken, if they did that much damage it would TOTALLY break TvT and TvZ, Mech would be entirely unstoppable in both matchups as Roaches and Marines would melt instantly to tanks. Blue flame hellions do counter zealots, i'm truly sorry that your 8 hellions don't kill 20 zealots, you actually need more than that. The Thor's strike cannon timing attacks were ridiculous, it meant that the thor directly countered the two units designed to counter it, the immortal and colossus.
2. Both phoenix and dark templar are shut down by a single turret and a planetary fortress, making them useless. High templar drops are something that needs to be explored but at the point in the game where they become viable vikings can pretty quickly be made to shutdown any warp prism harass. Also, did you just call pylons overpowered?
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On December 03 2011 11:48 Kamikiri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 11:11 joeschmo wrote:
garbage build, trash plyr who all ins every game, any terran can make up an all in build, trying to make it into a strategy from what you scouted doesn't earn you any more merit whatsoever. God, how can you guys reading this not be pissed beyond words? this is absolute trash, really? on tl forums you post a freakin all in build? no terran who's worth a shit wants to learn an all in build. Go watch Jinro play a Protoss you noobie
User was temp banned for this post. Specialist is not a trash player, he is a pretty solid GM terran. This is the strategy forums where people post their strategies, in this case he is posting an all-in build he has come up with. You really shouldn't flame someone for playing the game different from you. That being said when I have played Specialist on the ladder he wasn't an exclusively all-in player.
He actually is exclusively an all-in player. This guy is famous for just pulling all of his scvs if he gets behind by 5 supply and praying for a win with a random allin. Ive played him plenty of times, enough to know this 100% true
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Kudos to Specialist, That build looks really interesting and a big step above blind all-ins for sure.
Just curious, out of few times this build lost, what was the reason behind it??
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2. Both phoenix and dark templar are shut down by a single turret and a planetary fortress, making them useless. High templar drops are something that needs to be explored but at the point in the game where they become viable vikings can pretty quickly be made to shutdown any warp prism harass. Also, did you just call pylons overpowered?
Funny, you have an innate ability to warp those pesky buggers PAST a turret, into my base, where there isn't detection and continue your DT harass. You can keep them at naturals so I have to scan and then land. Keep them by the minerals. I maynard scvs, and call mules, you kill the mules. ezpz
And I'm with him. I wish my food unit flew, or changed into a detector, or could warp units in to it... I can raise and lower mine!!!! lol
Joking aside. Mech does need tweaks in TvP, that wouldn't change TvT or TvZ which is where the issue lies. TvT mech is almost perfect IMO as it's a circle motion of strats. Bio > mech > bio mech > bio. Perfect in my opinion. Mech in TvZ is very hard to execute but obviously isn't broken or too weak, as top terrans are still winning with it. I think changing tank damage is a joke, as it would completely make tank/anything the go to unit comp. You wouldn't micro to win, you'd position and sit to win. I already personally think mech is a gay play style, but that's because I'm in your face never 200/200 kinda player.
TvP is difficult. I'm personally using bio mech now, but cutting tanks out once archon or chargelot enter the stadium. It's working great. A 100 food ish push at 10:30 with 3-4 tanks, 2 medics, and a bio force with stim shields shells? Yes please. Went collsai? It's okay. My range 13 > range 9. I can safely third, and then go into a bio play with a small wind in my sails kind of feeling. Straight bio requires great control, but it's rewarding in my mind. What's rewarding about it? Bio micro vs protoss micro is night and day in my opinion, don't quote and tell me differently as it's what I think. Studder stepping, splitting, concave to concave drop backs, landing EMPs, dodging forcefields --- it's just awesome. It makes it worth while and fun. Now beating their army, and having 20 supply of fresh 3/0/3 chargelots coming at you is not at all fun...
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On December 03 2011 20:28 Tazerenix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 18:25 one-one-one wrote:On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote:On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck. Yeah! It is ridiculous how much crap terran players have to take. Seriously , how hard can it be? Don´t keep nerfing mech when 99% of all terrans have huge problems playing "standard" TvP. Revert the fucking tank nerf. Won´t change much in TvZ since tanks already overkills lings and banes hard , TvT will lean more towards mech and marine tank will be replaced by marine marauder tank. Then you open up a solid way to play TvP and thus making the TvP matchup less boring to watch and less stupid to play generating a bigger interest for SC2 as an e-sport resulting in more games sold etc blablabla. The siege tank should be a ballin' unit , just deal with it! Blue flame hellions was designed to counter mass light units as zealots , deal with it! Thors should not have energy for a gimmicky upgrade that was nerfed into oblivion , remove energy bar and the upgrade. I drop a thor in your base , deal with it! The SC2 scene lacks high profile terrans that can speak for the majority with great credibility. We need more players like avilo and Jinro that are outspoken by the mess that is TvP. Blizzard giving in to the protoss mafia on SotG by givning protoss an harass unit in HotS is a reason why we need high profile terrans telling people what is what. Like protoss ever needed more harass options when their basic supply provider , the pylon allows them to harass in all stages of the game. If that is not enough you can make a warp prism , phoenix or dark templars. Why not a high templar drop at opponents far away expansions ? ... Made me wanna vomit Feels like logical reasoning and discussions in a civilized tone with well-grounded arguments is not the right way to affect game balance. Whining seems like a better option so far Keep up the good work avilo! What did I just read... 1. Siege tanks were broken, if they did that much damage it would TOTALLY break TvT and TvZ, Mech would be entirely unstoppable in both matchups as Roaches and Marines would melt instantly to tanks. Blue flame hellions do counter zealots, i'm truly sorry that your 8 hellions don't kill 20 zealots, you actually need more than that. The Thor's strike cannon timing attacks were ridiculous, it meant that the thor directly countered the two units designed to counter it, the immortal and colossus. 2. Both phoenix and dark templar are shut down by a single turret and a planetary fortress, making them useless. High templar drops are something that needs to be explored but at the point in the game where they become viable vikings can pretty quickly be made to shutdown any warp prism harass. Also, did you just call pylons overpowered?
Sorry mods if my previous post drifted away a bit. It is quite common in TvP threads though, since creative strategies like this seem to expose underlying problems in the game.
I have myself done a build very similar to iEchoics 1-1-2 opening which I transformed into an all in version making it almost identical to the build in this post. I have also experience with TvP mech. In both strategies you use hellions and posters claiming ignorant stuff about hellions has to be addressed.
So I will answer to the guy above , but before I will stay on the main topic of this thread:
This build used to work extremely well giving me like an 80% win rate in TvP on diamond level. That was before the 1-1-1 builds became very popular. This build grew in popultarity to the extent that most protosses could identify it and respond to it making it less effective. Phoenix can work quite good vs this build by slowing down your advancement towards your opponents base by forcing the terran player to lay down a PDD mid map. If they expanded they only have to stall until they have enough units and they will win.
The OP is onto something good by noticing that this build can be masked as a traditional 1-1-1 by hiding the second starport and building a fake tech-lab on the factory or something. This opens up a new way to abuse the protoss since they dont know if they have to make zealots/immortals to counter tanks or something else to deal with banshees.
So this build may be revived cos of meta-gaming possibilities.
The phoenix response can be dealt it by doing crap like getting cloak and sniping observers , it then comes down to some silly micro to decide who will come out ahead.
Now to the guy who replied to my first post:
Tanks doing 50 dmg to all armour types would not be better vs roaches. Marines with combat shields would not die to one tank blast. Marines would however take more damage in clumps so when the tank counts go up you would probably have to mix in marauders as you already do today vs mech.
Tank splash would also do more damage to clumped lings , making it even more important for zerg players to spread out their stuff and think twice before engaging tanks.
It is correct that hellions in critical mass absolutely murder zealots even after patch. What has changed is that the number of required hellions has grown. Protoss could even before the patch abuse mech mechanics by just warping in the correct units. In a big engagement you typically loose many hellions and a few tanks and thors. After the patch the time window to punish a terran player for lack of hellions after a big battle has grown. Just mass warp-in zealots!
Another more obvious thing is that more hellions needed means less supply for tanks and thors.
On the thor issue we both seem to agree, so I don´t understand your response. My suggestion was to remove the strike cannon upgrade for the reasons you specified while also removing thor energy.
This , and the fact that you ask yourself: "What did I just read..." , is maybe an indication that you didn´t read properly before responding because nowhere in my post do I say that pylons are OP. I was merely pointing out the great harass abilities protoss players have.
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Specialist is a great player! Listen to his wisdom!
he actually doesn't stop laddering I think.
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On December 03 2011 20:31 unSpeake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 11:48 Kamikiri wrote:On December 03 2011 11:11 joeschmo wrote:
garbage build, trash plyr who all ins every game, any terran can make up an all in build, trying to make it into a strategy from what you scouted doesn't earn you any more merit whatsoever. God, how can you guys reading this not be pissed beyond words? this is absolute trash, really? on tl forums you post a freakin all in build? no terran who's worth a shit wants to learn an all in build. Go watch Jinro play a Protoss you noobie
User was temp banned for this post. Specialist is not a trash player, he is a pretty solid GM terran. This is the strategy forums where people post their strategies, in this case he is posting an all-in build he has come up with. You really shouldn't flame someone for playing the game different from you. That being said when I have played Specialist on the ladder he wasn't an exclusively all-in player. He actually is exclusively an all-in player. This guy is famous for just pulling all of his scvs if he gets behind by 5 supply and praying for a win with a random allin. Ive played him plenty of times, enough to know this 100% true
he's actually NOT exclusively an all-in player. He is famous for pulling scvs and that may be his playstyle, but he does have winning macro games (against competent pro/semipro players). There are plenty of his replays out there if you dont believe me.
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After several games this build feels very flimsy to me. Made some mistakes not getting my ravens soon enough, which is extremely pivotal, the difference in engagements without PDD copared to those with it is astounding. I'm going to play with it some more, but it feels like you rely entirely on PDD to win.
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On December 01 2011 15:31 SpecialistSc wrote:Intro8. What you need to be careful of+ Show Spoiler +
C. Collosus tech – If you spot colossus tech, you simply have to start making Vikings instead of banshees. The attack timing is the same (after expo).
Actually banshee's do more dps than vikings do and this was a build based on the Polt push (except no hellions).
Banshee's also give you an advantage over vikings because you can position them better and if your micro is good enough killing their observer will cripple a toss's army against banshee's giving you an edge over the colossus tech.
The problem with this build is that with hellion production:
a) you have fewer marines which are needed to target fire down any observers.
b) or your push comes later due to less ground units to soak up any damage from the stalkers, etc.
Polt push timing is about the 9 minute mark, where you push when you have 10-15 marines, 1 raven, 3-4 banshee's with cloak. It can be hard countered by any proxy VR and/or pheonix tech and also early blink stalkers.
A FFE is not quite a hard counter but with cannons out it is hard to easily punish your opponent for being greedy. I think if hellions are produced in this build then you need to use your first initial hellions to keep the toss in their base and prevent any aggressive pushes until you can get forces up. Smaller maps would benefit from the hellions than larger maps, and also giving you map control early game preventing any probes from putting forward pylons out.
The problem with hellions in TvP is that they are so weak now. Even against zealots their dps is insignificant and I would much rather have more marines out at the time of a push than hellions.
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On December 01 2011 15:31 SpecialistSc wrote:
C. Don’t forget to A move
This was the part that I enjoyed the most
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On December 03 2011 01:34 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 15:44 coL.rsvp wrote:This is a very nice 1-1-1 variant. At least for me, the way I defend 1-1-1 is to use as few stalkers as possible, and just go mass zealot with some immo/sentry support. However, the early hellion drop forces more stalkers from the protoss player which makes the all-in that much stronger. This build is countered in the same way a normal 1-1-1 is countered (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379), except the trick is to not over make stalkers and rely on zealot/immo/sentry in the face of hellions. Hellions don't really counter zealots. Here's a game I just played against this build: http://drop.sc/67279 A protoss player admitting that hellions suck against zealots. Praise the lord almighty, i'm glad a good level protoss finally fessed up about it on the forums, as many forum warriors will randomly come up in mech/hellion threads saying that hellions are good against zealots lmao. Sorry, just had to comment on that, as it's a misconception that hellions are good against zealots when they actually suck.
Go to the unit tester and try 15 hellions against 10 stalkers. Hellions are really good against tier 1 protoss.
Edit: They are however pretty food inefficient.
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this build is absolutely ridiculous to play against as a protoss. kudos.
(you're still a bm jerk though)
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I just saw forGG do something just like this build, with a couple of siege tanks after helion harass. Works really well ^^
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I execute fairly often in my stream so you guys should check it out
justin.tv/specialistsc or specialistsc in unfeatured tl.net
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Thanks for this guide.. This is the first time I'm using an all-in build, and so far I have only failed once (no expo at 9mins, he had multiple sentries and I forced the ramp -.-).. For once, I'm quite happy that immortals are a waste of ressources on their part when you got 4 banshees tearing them apart.
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thx for the guide i will try this, also i have a question,
if u wall off and bunker behind it, not only u are safe against proxy gates and fast 1zealot 1stalker push, u also dont need to worry about getting a second bunker versus a 4gate.
any reason for not walling?
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On December 12 2011 15:20 Lemonerer wrote:
thx for the guide i will try this, also i have a question,
if u wall off and bunker behind it, not only u are safe against proxy gates and fast 1zealot 1stalker push, u also dont need to worry about getting a second bunker versus a 4gate.
any reason for not walling?
um I wall in... just not at the beginning
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On December 12 2011 16:29 SpecialistSc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 15:20 Lemonerer wrote:
thx for the guide i will try this, also i have a question,
if u wall off and bunker behind it, not only u are safe against proxy gates and fast 1zealot 1stalker push, u also dont need to worry about getting a second bunker versus a 4gate.
any reason for not walling? um I wall in... just not at the beginning
yea ive seen some reps, but i mean if u wallin at the beggining it seems like it hard counters 4gate and proxy, 2 things u said u can lose to if u dont watch out
anywy going to try it thank you 
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On December 12 2011 17:31 Lemonerer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 16:29 SpecialistSc wrote:On December 12 2011 15:20 Lemonerer wrote:
thx for the guide i will try this, also i have a question,
if u wall off and bunker behind it, not only u are safe against proxy gates and fast 1zealot 1stalker push, u also dont need to worry about getting a second bunker versus a 4gate.
any reason for not walling? um I wall in... just not at the beginning yea ive seen some reps, but i mean if u wallin at the beggining it seems like it hard counters 4gate and proxy, 2 things u said u can lose to if u dont watch out anywy going to try it thank you
Try defending a 3 gate void with a wall. Then youll see why theres no wall at the start.
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On December 14 2011 11:31 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 17:31 Lemonerer wrote:On December 12 2011 16:29 SpecialistSc wrote:On December 12 2011 15:20 Lemonerer wrote:
thx for the guide i will try this, also i have a question,
if u wall off and bunker behind it, not only u are safe against proxy gates and fast 1zealot 1stalker push, u also dont need to worry about getting a second bunker versus a 4gate.
any reason for not walling? um I wall in... just not at the beginning yea ive seen some reps, but i mean if u wallin at the beggining it seems like it hard counters 4gate and proxy, 2 things u said u can lose to if u dont watch out anywy going to try it thank you Try defending a 3 gate void with a wall. Then youll see why theres no wall at the start.
word, and also, the probe harass at the beginning is annoying when you pre-emptively wall in at the beginning
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this is so annoying to play against. i've lost to it about 4 times and every single time i went in planning everything from the start knowing he would do this build. i tried one base collosus and he just waited longer and got vikings and tanks, tried phoenixes but theyre kind of pointless imo. then i tried 1 gate expanding into mass gateway units but the hellion harass ALWAYS damages me no matter what. you have to basically shut that down perfectly without losing anything to win i feel like. it sucks because everytime i knew the drop was coming but unless you just kill the medivac before he drops he will always get at least 4-5 probes or more
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I dont no why a wall with rax at the beginning is bad? i always wall in with rax, produce 3 marines, lift a little bit away and build a reactor. Just put a bunker in the wall and im fine and in the same situation as you.
And i think this build counters 3 gate void allin. Just cancel the medivac and produce viking/s. im fine with this.
what you are think?
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On January 07 2012 07:06 Bale wrote:
I dont no why a wall with rax at the beginning is bad? i always wall in with rax, produce 3 marines, lift a little bit away and build a reactor. Just put a bunker in the wall and im fine and in the same situation as you.
And i think this build counters 3 gate void allin. Just cancel the medivac and produce viking/s. im fine with this.
what you are think?
it's really a personal preference
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Wow, I can't emphasize how much I love this build
I'm mid Diamond on EU and been having huge problems with TvP lately (like 20% WR probably). With this build, for the last 2 days I only lost 1 game.(my fault, didn't lift depo in time). Finally, it's now Tosses who RQ after playing me
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good tatic worth to try it out
but lets say you cant kill 5 drones
does it mean you loose with that ?
what is if the toss builded more sentri/stalker no robo
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On January 15 2012 06:14 Endrew wrote:Wow, I can't emphasize how much I love this build I'm mid Diamond on EU and been having huge problems with TvP lately (like 20% WR probably). With this build, for the last 2 days I only lost 1 game.(my fault, didn't lift depo in time). Finally, it's now Tosses who RQ after playing me
ty hopefully more ppl will try this out!
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On January 15 2012 12:48 perser84 wrote:good tatic worth to try it out but lets say you cant kill 5 drones does it mean you loose with that ? what is if the toss builded more sentri/stalker no robo
no you can still come back with scv push
and for 2nd q, then it's easy win
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wow this build is sick. 13-1 against protoss since i'm using this build. The only time i lost was due to my bad reaction to a warpprism 4gate. But i managed to win against that in some other games too. Dont know what protoss can do tbh. This build is just melting through them.
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got into masters thx to your built
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I give up. I will use this build from now on. I've never all-ined before, survived without the 1-1-1 but this matchup has become a farce, nothing left to say.
Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.
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i had so much trouble against p since the last patch kinda 38-40%
Today i checked out ur build and been very succesfull with it so far 12:4 in my last tvps
also tryin ur ForGG Tvz build but only had 1 vz since i red ur threads there i had the common insta gg as the banshee cloaks xD
1st time my opponnent actually did go dt's never seen such failed dt's =)
I had a game whre i couldn see a real windo in atacking and he delayed hes expansion hardly so i expanded quit fast and kept on harrassing with hellions got additonal raven and use the one with energy for additional harras worked out quite well P could never establish 2 base eco and i got the game completly in my hands.
He made a push after my harrasments startetd with 3 immortals and a bunch of gateways units thx to bunker banshee and pdd not a problem at all
thx alot for u work !
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Really enjoying this build
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I'm starting to like this build, but I have one question:
When you do the drop before the large push, should you try and kill as many probes as possible, or try and keep your hellions alive?
I remember Day9 doing a daily on MMA (or was it MVP?)'s style, where you would harass with drops/hellions, but the objective was NOT to do damage, but to take NO damage. Similar reasoning here? Poke at probes, but load up and run before the stalkers kill any hellions?
Or suicide the hellions or for maximum damage?
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Counter to this build = fast colossi. GG!
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I'm wondering at what timing you move out and what u do against colossi (u gotta admit having marine helion viking isnt ideal?) I'll def check out the replays. Ty for posting!
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On January 30 2012 23:45 KingPwny wrote:
Counter to this build = fast colossi. GG!
not true, if they expanded they will have 1 colosus when you push out, and it won't be enough to stop
If they sit on 1 base, get some vikings and push later.
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On January 29 2012 05:15 Paincarnate wrote:
I'm starting to like this build, but I have one question:
When you do the drop before the large push, should you try and kill as many probes as possible, or try and keep your hellions alive?
I remember Day9 doing a daily on MMA (or was it MVP?)'s style, where you would harass with drops/hellions, but the objective was NOT to do damage, but to take NO damage. Similar reasoning here? Poke at probes, but load up and run before the stalkers kill any hellions?
Or suicide the hellions or for maximum damage?
hellions are not worth much in the battle
just get the maximum damage unto the probes
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On January 31 2012 01:44 KingPwny wrote:
I'm wondering at what timing you move out and what u do against colossi (u gotta admit having marine helion viking isnt ideal?) I'll def check out the replays. Ty for posting!
as i said above, colosus build won't just work.
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Alright, so I tried this in a tournament, and although I was quite confident going in, the Protoss completely spanked me with a 4-gate.
My main question is, after the gas steal, how would you know whether he is 4-gateing or early expanding? If he contains you at the bottom of your ramp with stalkers, do you just scan for the expo, and if you don't see it, throw down two more bunkers?
Not going to post the replay unless requested (because I played terribly), but suffice to say that the 4-gate hit me right as my medivac was going into his base, and I didn't pull SCV's fast enough to repair the bunker.
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Could you please explain, or post some replays, of what you do if you're doing this build but scout a nexus first or a 1 gate nexus?
Thanks.
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On February 01 2012 16:33 tianGO wrote:
Could you please explain, or post some replays, of what you do if you're doing this build but scout a nexus first or a 1 gate nexus?
Thanks.
Standard 1-1-1 into just go f***ing kill him usually works quite well.
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Too easy to defend with HT.
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nice guide, firstly have you had trouble with people if they have watchtowers majorly kiting your army with stalkers whilst it moves out, obviously made easier by the lack of dps of tanks from a normal 1-1-1 and do collossi ever come out early enough
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On February 01 2012 18:55 PeaCeR wrote:
Too easy to defend with HT.
Cloaked Banshee's kill him outright if he went for HT.
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I just used this twice on NA high plat... it's ridiculously strong. I literally A-moved (apart from the PDD) and didn't even properly tank with SCVs and I still shattered the toss army (1gaterobo). Thanks for the guide ^.^
I lost one because of an unscouted proxy stargate and didn't respond well, but yeah..
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I dont understand this could work exactly if you do the huk expo. You have 5 stalkers basically same time expo is done and can 3 more quite quickly if you chrono this lets you pressure the terrans front if you wish and allows you to scout. Gas steal does not hurt it and it would cursh any sort of marine hellion attack. You need tanks banshees or lots of bunkers with repair to slow this aggression and it hits at about the same time as 4 gate. have you faced it yet?
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This build works VERY well, I'm at diamond level, so this is a great build for all you other diamond terrans getting stomped in TvP. I went from being 1-9 vs protoss where the 1 win was a guy who didnt move his probes till 1:30 to winning my last 3 TvPs. This build works great against the 1 gate expo as far as I can tell which is the standard TvP opening.
Like 5 more wins TvP... this build is a miracle... Also to people who think collo will counter this build: your hellion drop will be able to spot the robo or bay most likely and if you do you can just hit a quick timing and your banshees will be able to deal with the collo nicely.
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The Huk 20 food expo is like the most common build now days, I have tried the double reactor barracks + tanks (move out when 3rd tank is about halfway done at about 7:10 with about 12 scvs) but I have been roflstomped every single time. Is there something I missed in Specialist's replay? I try to target immortals if they have them and set SCVs on auto repair which forms a zealot wall, but its not even close; it feels like there is some nuance I'm missing...
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On February 01 2012 16:24 Paincarnate wrote:
Alright, so I tried this in a tournament, and although I was quite confident going in, the Protoss completely spanked me with a 4-gate.
My main question is, after the gas steal, how would you know whether he is 4-gateing or early expanding? If he contains you at the bottom of your ramp with stalkers, do you just scan for the expo, and if you don't see it, throw down two more bunkers?
Not going to post the replay unless requested (because I played terribly), but suffice to say that the 4-gate hit me right as my medivac was going into his base, and I didn't pull SCV's fast enough to repair the bunker.
this is actually a really valid question.
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Well written guide. Thanks for sharing! Will defo use this when Im getting tired of the MU and just want some free points.. or in best of situations.
Peace
Dan
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Ah this build slaughtered me on ladder the other day - the reason? I thought the early hellions were just for poking around and he'd switch into tanks, and my obs got sniped with the raven.
Zealot/Immortal doesn't work too well against two port >_>
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Nicely written, thanks
Will try this a few times as my TvP is horrible <_<
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I did this build alot of times, and the hardcounter is robo + stargate (phoenix). It really dies hard
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Only thing I have trouble with this build is blink stalkers, he has a lot of stalkers so drop gets denied easily and once I move out he can kite my forces all the way back to his base significantly weakening the attack.
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On February 16 2012 16:45 Reggae-Troll wrote:
Only thing I have trouble with this build is blink stalkers, he has a lot of stalkers so drop gets denied easily and once I move out he can kite my forces all the way back to his base significantly weakening the attack.
I had trouble with this. Best case scenario, I think you are forced to base trade, because he'll be countering while you are attacking.
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The only time I have ever lost using this build was against a GM protoss who had like 3 stalkers left at the end of the game.
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CluEleSs, even if they scout the hellion drop and/or open phoenix?
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About pheonix:
I personally switch around slightly if I spot early phoenix. I tend to skip the second port and get an armory for thors instead. From there you just allin him with repairing scvs. I havnt met a single P surviving vs repaired thors when going early phoenix.
If you spot it later you follow what specialist tells you to do!
Cheers
Dan
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EPT
