EPT[G] Revolutionizing Warp-In Pylon Control-Groups - Page 3
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ildiroen
Denmark9 Posts
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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Xenorawks
158 Posts
On November 15 2011 16:20 elliminist wrote: Probe hotkeyed to 3. Army to 1,2. Shift add pylon once you've confirmed it to be built. You once again disregarded that my experiences have lead me to be forced to often have to re-hotkey units/buildings after they've been built simply because Zerg macro isn't afforded that leniency of 'its too inconvenient to check again a second later', especially with injects. Quote2 + Show Spoiler + I'm no fan of mouse scrolling either, but if you do set your mouse scroll speed to a very high %, you can actually scroll pretty damn quickly(even faster than minimap clicking). You are still disregarding my assumptions. There's absolutely no value in this technique for a player like you since you'd rather play sub-optimally and rely on your speed to make up for it. Quote3 + Show Spoiler + You say it's better to warp stuff from the inside of your base and move to the edges and defend a drop because warping it at the edge in sight of your enemy is very vulnerable. Then what's the difference if I use spacebar to go to my nexus and warp stuff around it OR tap my camera to a fixed location OR double tap forges/robo if placed near the drop location OR simply mouse scroll/minimap click to any pylon location close to it and do that? It doesn't make sense to bother to go to the closest pylon in that case since all you want is to warp the units somewhere in your base as long as it is close to the drop but not close enough for your opponent to snipe them. How do you defend the top AND bottom of your base in maps with larger main bases such as Taldarim Altar or Testbug? These maps have main base areas about twice the size of the camera view. I feel like this centering only seems okay when players don't have enough minimap awareness and the drop is right in their face already. The pylon method is better on the premise that you actually have the map awareness to notice movement. As for your suggestions regarding forges/robos etc, you're conceding to the idea this method is a legitimate and fast way to double tap back to your base appropriately. The fact is that robos and forges are not consistently built in the same place every game even by Protosses with defined builds. To rely on this inconsistency is a poor decision to make. If you have good map control you should be at least able to visually confirm what composition is coming in. I'll use PvT as a prime example. (average pattern: 1 medi 1 spot, 2 medi 2 spots, 2 medi 1 spot). I feel it's very important when you have actual map awareness of checking how large a harass threat is before just blinding making stuff or making it too late. You need to reposition with minimap controls in the first place and this facilitates the effectiveness of the technique. I would understand how useless this is if Protosses could defend every drop by blindly making 6 zealots, but this isn't the case. The Pylon method will cover a larger area than just tabbing back to your main nexus. This much is clear by how you mentioned the use of forges/robos to center the camera. Quote4 + Show Spoiler + Your main's not protoss, maybe you don't play it at such a high pace. You are suggesting this method assuming that a protoss always has all his pylons in place before attacking but you have not taken into consideration: 1. You don't have pylons if you're just moving out early. Simply throwing proxy pylons everywhere early game is one thing, getting them destroyed is another. 2. Counterattacks, you don't always expect to have a happy pylon for warpins. You have to bring a probe along all the time. And more often than not, you have to attack before your pylon is in place. 3. 2-3 prompt attacks. I select 2 probes one to build at X location one to build at Y location and select my warpprism to land at Z location and then I move out my army to engage/my opponent army intercepts me. So in this case, how am I going to hotkey my X and Y pylon? I would already have my warpprism on a control group so it is unnecessary to even bring up Z location. Not to mention, I have to be controlling my army at the same time, I ain't gonna move my screen magically to X and Y location to warp stuff in there, but I certainly would use F keys for that. I feel that was an offensive jab at my credentials. Why should it matter? For the record I'm mid-masters Zerg and skill-wise roughly High Diamond Protoss. I suggested this method assuming that you can ADD on more pylons as you continue your advance. How is it hard to shift click 1 pylon onto 3 others as you push forward? It's not like they have to all be in place. If you lose all your proxies, and you're still going for the kill, heck you might go as far as to reinforce from your natural. You wouldn't have anything clearly mapped for that (to your natural nexus? that might be a walk away from your actual ramp - see Antiga Shipyard) Sometimes the closer pylon is even at the side of the main in that map. Your method doesn't compound for lost pylons, mine does. Tactically, I would like to ask why you would be in a position to attack into a base without the reinforcing Warp-Ins? PvP - Won't be decided without warp-in support. Without a warp in the defender's advantage is not nullified. PvT - If you've got a big enough army to even poke w/o warp-ins you probably have enough pure army advantage to just look away from the battle and set up hotkeys/warp ins in the midst of things. I mean, if Terrans can kite chargelots while macroing at bases, I'm sure Protoss can go offscreen to macro too. PvZ - Won't break a zerg without additional warp-ins. Defenders advantage exists for Zerg, and reinforcements are needed. If you can push in from the start then you have no pressure to focus on the actual combat. If you've gotten that far ahead enough that you can push into your enemy's base before an extra warp-in, you should easily have the opportunity to look away from the army for a few seconds. Otherwise it's just a push based on gimmicky control to win and you're sacrificing the concept of solid play consistent play. I'm not saying that this is an invalid way to play, heck I like being a hero in some random games 1. Yes you don't but you won't need to go back to the Pylon in the first place until you need to warp in, which is usually walk time + 25 seconds. You have ample time to check back on the building probe to add the pylon. TBH I would consider it a control blunder if a probe was hotkeyed with a main army and set to 1a. That's just asking to risk throwing away the attackers advantage into a stronger defender's advantage. It's just as fast to add a building to a control group as it is to set a camera position. 2. If you can even push up their ramp before a pylon goes down, then you can afford to look back to the probe (once again I strongly believe it's a blunder to group the probe with the 1a army) and control group the pylon as it comes up. 3. You're forced to rely on Mini-map to handle that. I already stated a flaw in the control set-up is that you can't position well with more than 1 warp prism 1 pylon without relying on Mini-map relocation. However you should still be able to manage 2 spots + use minimap for the third. You said it seems counter intuitive to use an extra hotkey to utilise this technique. You just showed me an example of where you use a minimum of 1 more hotkey to achieve the same results. (you need to indivdually map each pylon placement + Warp prism on control group. On one control group I map my Warp Prism, one of the two pylons, and rely on my minimap for the third); I also do it faster. just for the record, remapping aggressive positions on the map with the F keys, and recalling which one adhere to which takes more memory and slows down the actual speed of the tactical play. Firstly I apologize if you feel offended, it was not my intention to jab at your credentials. I'm not here to flame your guide or whatsoever, I just feel that it is slightly flawed when you attack your opponent on the fly. I still think you're missing my point or should I say, I failed to get my point across. You say you find it alright to take a while to look back at the proxy pylon you build and hotkey it. But my point is plain and simple: I don't want to scroll back/double tap back to my building probe just to hotkey that new pylon while in the heat of a battle. What if I shift queued that single building probe to build a few pylons? Do I have to scroll around and hotkey them only after they are being built? Would it be faster if I selected the probe, select a location, queue up a pylon building order, set camera and never have to look back again or check when does the pylon start building? I can devote that time completely to a micro battle/macro in base. Map awareness has nothing to do with warping units in base. You see medivacs flying towards your base, you go to the nearest pylon and warp in units. I see medivacs flying towards my base, I go to my nexus or nexus then scroll a little and then do the warp in. Fact is, both of us would be warping units at the same time to deal with the drop, it has nothing to do with whether I warp it at the pylon or somewhere slightly further. If I react to the drop the instant I see it on my minimap, there is no way I won't be able to warp in units in time to deal with it just like how you won't have trouble using the pylon style too. There is not much difference, I admit you probably can warp in half a second faster because you don't have to scroll, but if I spot the drop coming, half a second or not, my units would be ready anyway. You took the forge/robo double tap thing a tad bit too seriously. What I mean is, aside from spacebar back to nexus, you can doubletap other buildings if it so happens to be around the drop location too. Spacebar to nexus and then scroll just a tiny little is in no way not fast enough to deal with a drop just like you say: as long if you have awareness and spot it coming before it's in your base. You say I dedicate a special control group to my dropship/warpprism. That is in the case of a 2/3 prompt attack. If I issue order to build pylon Y at the zerg's 4th, pylon X at the middle of the map where my army is engaging the zerg army, and Warpprism at Zerg's main. How am I going to tap to my pylon Y if I just queued it to be built some time ago and I don't have time to go hotkey it since I'm engaging at X? How do I tap to my warpprism in the heat of the battle as the "closest pylon" since I'm fighting at X? Therefore in this case, I can easily camera to Y to warp units to wreck havoc, double tap control grouped warpprism to warp at the zerg's main, and double tap back my army which is in the middle of the battle. I save the time having to scroll to pylon Y to hotkey it while fighting at X and I won't have trouble with my warpprism either. Lastly, I want to summarize everything and end this here: Your method is usable especially scrolling between bases to deal with drops. But it is only a little faster compared to other methods. The benefit of it above, I don't think it outweighs the ability to camera a soon-to-be-built forward pylon and also control a 3 prompt attack as efficiently when it is hard to differentiate whether "I want to warp in stuff in his main and I want to move my army to fuck his base on the other side, but if I double tap my control group, will I get my warpprism(which is in the zerg's main) or will I end up jumping to my forward pylon" if so happen your army is in between both of them. You say mouse scrolling is a sub-optimal way to play. I say the trouble to scroll back to where your pylon is built to hotkey it in the midst of a battle is sub-optimal too since it involves scrolling. What if you had to queue your building probe to build a few proxies around or simply build a pylon and move somewhere else, then you can't double tap it back to the pylon you desire and have to rely on scrolling back just to hotkey it too. By the way Tactically, I would like to ask why you would be in a position to attack into a base without the reinforcing Warp-Ins? This does not make sense. If I had lesser blink stalkers but my opponent had more normal stalkers, I would have went in and start the micro battle first before my forward pylon is done. When it is, I'll camera back to it and reinforce. But I don't want to wait for it to be built before going in, and neither do I want scroll back to hotkey it while busy blinking back just because I ordered my building probe to do something else. There are so many situations where you have to attack before you can have reinforcements, you don't want to miss a chance to permanently-focefield your opponent out of his base if you see the chance to do it right(even if your reinforcements are going to be late)? I will say this the last time: scrolling back to hotkey a pylon in the middle of the battle(you can't always assume your building probe is only there to throw a pylon) is just as inefficient as you call mouse scrolling "sub-optimal" way to play. Having the need to assume whether your mineral-line-droppin-warpprism or your forward pylon is closer to your army is quite unreliable. I don't wish to argue with you further, you obviously put a lot of effort into making this guide and you clearly see me as someone trying to molotov your work and discredit you. I don't know if you are still able to see the point I'm trying to make but one day I hope you do. Relax and take a look at Hero's stream. Look at how he controls 2 probes to build at 2 different locations plus the warpprism coming from another side and his army from another. Then you see how much APM he needs to control four places at once. I assure you, he does not have spare time to re-scroll back to his pylons just to hotkey them once they started building. And you certainly can't double control group 2 different building probes. | ||
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AA.spoon
Belgium331 Posts
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elliminist
Japan121 Posts
On November 15 2011 17:07 Xenorawks wrote: I don't wish to argue with you further, you obviously put a lot of effort into making this guide and you clearly see me as someone trying to molotov your work and discredit you. I don't know if you are still able to see the point I'm trying to make but one day I hope you do. Relax and take a look at Hero's stream. Look at how he controls 2 probes to build at 2 different locations plus the warpprism coming from another side and his army from another. Then you see how much APM he needs to control four places at once. I assure you, he does not have spare time to re-scroll back to his pylons just to hotkey them once they started building. And you certainly can't double control group 2 different building probes. Apology accepted. I was fine with the other general comments except for that one jab at my 'skill level'. Hero's multitasking of his combat situations (hell I watch him often enough) is just in short unbelievable. However I personally feel his techniques are the results of enormous amounts of practice and memorization of the tactic to utilise (working out which areas to Camera Capture, the feel of when all the pieces of his combo come together, and the memory to remember which spots he hotkeyed as which pylons). I don't feel like it's possible to do something like his tactics on the fly if you haven't practiced it quite extensively. If a player can execute that move on a semi-consistent basis I would personally think that alone makes them a GM Protoss in NA. EDIT: you won't ever center on the warp prism if your pylons are in the control group. What you need to do to use the warp prism is select control group, individual click prism, and then right mouse portrait to center it. I think you should actually test this in-game before theorycrafting about how the mechanics of MBS and control groups work out here. You'll be surprised by the results | ||
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nhaita
Lithuania12 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 15 2011 12:44 elliminist wrote: Not to be offensive but don't Protoss already play on a thin line in the first place with Forcefields and unit micro? I believe it's a reasonable assumption when moving into pro level that it's inexcusable to mess up hotkey set-ups. Minimap clicking is a minimum requirement to being able to use this technique properly in the first place; However, on maps with way larger bases (eg ICCUP Testbug) you need to end up mouse scrolling (pushing mouse against sides of screen) and this ends up meaning that your method is not 'efficient'. To a certain degree many players compensate for their flaws in interface control with pure hand speed. You see this the case with even the best macro players (e.g. Ret) To counter your argument, then it's also totally possible to rely on pure mouse speed and minimap precision to rectify mistakes like jumping to the wrong pylon. But to reiterate, this guide was written from the assumption that players want to utilise the most user interface efficient form of control. One extreme example of a player relying purely on speed is Masq (Est 400 apm?). He constantly uses mouse scroll to get to all the location he needs to go. I don't think this is in any regards a 'better' or more 'efficient' form of play, despite him being able to solve all the problems and winning by mouse speed and spam. Unfortunately not. Computer can't support FRAPS + SC2 at same time. Though, even if I could I'm not sure I'd be an appropriate Protoss user to demonstrate it - My Protoss mechanics are a league below my Zerg and Terran. The best I have is the replay I used to take screenshots of the technique. Note how minimally I used the mouse scrolling ingame, rather I relied predominantly on control groups and minimap to move across the screen in various places without trying to 'tune' my camera around. REPLAY - Against AI I believe you don't agree with my basic assumptions about the technique. That being said yes I do also rely on mouse speed and mini-map precision to compensate for my incomplete interface control of the game. However this doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. Minimap awareness and usage should be very important too. I probably can't stress this enough Good Protosses right now already have base pylons spread in a way that the whole area is carpeted with energy to warp in anywhere, anytime. However streamlining this, and ALSO with Warp Prisms in a shared dedicated hotkey, is the objective of considering this technique useful at all. Not hotkeying army is possible, but I don't see why it should be considered 'optimal' play. From what I see of your control groups, you constantly remap warp prisms only when you use them. What if you had them ready for your unit composition from the start. Even if you don't get a single warp prism, the control group is still being dedicated to something useful from the start. I actually have a dedicated hotkey for warpprisms or specialist units if I end up having to handle gateway units, colossi, HT and phoenixes at the same time. It's the key to the left of "1", over "Tab", which I remapped to "7" or "8" (I don't remember) so I effectively use this when I have a warpprism, I rarely use 1, 2 or 3 for it. And I rarely have more than one anyway (which I think is the case for most players). I think I will try out your method actually, it could be neat and I'm in a phase where incorporating new mechanics into my play is not as hard as it used to so it doesn't cost me much. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
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Tomazi
United Kingdom158 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 16 2011 01:25 Tomazi wrote: I tried this out, and if you happen to have two pylons adjacent (i.e anti-artosis), it will always jump to those. Yeah that's how control group double tapping works usually. But I think the OP means you must only bind the proxy pylons you intend to use to warp in. And if you happen to have 2 proxy pylons next to each other, then you're screwed :D Conclusion: clicking on the minimap, a very useful talent toi have. | ||
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Tomazi
United Kingdom158 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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zanderfever.TV
United States362 Posts
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Seiferz
United States640 Posts
On November 15 2011 17:01 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Isn't this what every toss uses F keys for? I do at least I have a hard time using F keys, so this makes my life a little easier. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:54 elliminist wrote: These are my current findings of the MBS game mechanic 1. If multiple buildings in a control group are double tapped to center on them, it will go to the closest one possible. I came to this understanding from using Zerg and just double tapping the 'larva usage' control group (as opposed to the individual base control groups e.g. 5-8). This is the primary mechanic by which this technique works at all. 2. If you have a unit and a building in the same control group and you double tap, it prioritizes the building to center on, instead of the unit. This appears to work as long as you control group the building before the unit. Quite a few Australian players use an inject method utilizing a Queen + Hatchery together in a hotkey; most notable in the international scene is Moonglade and tgun. It is actually faster than the backspace inject method at its fastest, because you simply double tap, click V for inject, and then just click on the hatchery. The best thing about this technique is that the hatchery is centered perfectly for your inject, there's absolutely no need to reposition your screen to make it happen! 3. Pylons don't have rallies. Self-explanatory really. 4. Right mouse clicking on the unit portrait centers it to that unit. When I read this, I believed your assumption about #1 was incorrect, so I tested. Sure enough, it is wrong. It doesn't go to the closest. It goes to the biggest concentration of like buildings. Specifically, I hotkeyed one pylon on one end of the map and two more pylons on the exact opposite side of the map to the same control group. I centered the camera over the solo pylon, and then I double-tapped the control group. The camera popped to the two pylons on the opposite end of the map. They are clearly not the 'closest'. The behavior was exhibited repeatedly without exception. #2. It doesn't matter whether you add the building or the unit to the control group first. The game apparently looks at the different unit / building types in a given control group, and will center on the type of unit / building with the most in that 'subgroup'. Within a subgroup, it determines the greatest number in close proximity and centers on them. Within that 'closest proximity', it may very well center on the oldest member of the control group. It's important to note that buildings are not always focused on. If you have 2 buildings and 3 units in that control group, it's going to the units, not the buildings, assuming they are like-units. For example, I put 2 pylons and 3 probes in a control group, and the camera went to the probes in every case. #4. It's left mouse clicking, not right. Also, it's important to note that there is a hotkey for that feature, which I use frequently for a number of things. It's 'Center on Selection' and it's default is Ctrl + F. Among other great uses, I use it to queue up 'drops on the move' in the following way. Activate my dropship, put the camera on where I want to drop. I actually have a camera location set for this, but it's not crucial. Then, use the minimap to queue up the path up to where I want the drop to occur, then my last right click (move command) and where I want the drop to begin. I hold shift + my drop hotkey, then 'Center on Selection' to immediately zip back to my dropship, where I simply click on it (in the middle of the screen), and the drop is now queued. Without usage of the 'Center on Selection', I would have to either try to click the minimap and find the dropship, or double tap the dropship, which would be ok if it's by itself in a control group, but then I'd need to do the shift + drop command at that point, which is less efficient, IMO. I'll edit in with more testing of other 'assumptions'. | ||
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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dnld12
United States324 Posts
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
Isnt that basic knowledge? Should work with every other building aswell... | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On November 16 2011 04:36 MasterReY wrote: Basically you say you hotkey pylons and the camera jumps to the closest hotkeyed pylon with a double tap. Isnt that basic knowledge? Should work with every other building aswell... I hope it's not basic knowledge, because it's not how it works. | ||
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czaku
Poland429 Posts
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