EPT
[G]zerg vs zerg Muta play - Page 3
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zakmaa
Canada525 Posts
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On November 07 2011 23:07 Staboteur wrote: I wasn't around much from the broodwar era, but from the little I've watched I remember mutalisks being largely used intentionally clumped up into a tiny ball so they'd all fire at once while only taking shots from a few targets. Wouldn't this micro be absolutely excellent ZvZ in a muta vs muta scenario, where you clump your mutas up and snipe mutas off his cloud one-by-one? Obviously, it wouldn't be easy, but I'm wondering if anyone has given it a try yet I remember when beta first hit one of the first things zergs tried was stacking mutas. They still stack, as I'm sure we've all found out against thors, but the micro isn't as fast or efficient as it was in BW. The biggest advantages from stacking was attacking random targets in unison (hold position micro),attacking immediately after the cool-down period, and the stacking prevented the AI from auto-targeting one specific muta from the flock. You can still stack and take advantage of the cool-down to an extent, but it's more important to nail your macro during the harass. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 07 2011 23:13 FlukyS wrote: I still think muta loses to mass roach, mass ling and thats not to mention hydra roach timing pushes like I do on ladder. Its kinda funny you see muta rushes a lot after the initial push to end the game early its either that or roach infestor and really late game its broodlords but I dont think many of my ZvZ games have gone that long for a while. My build only seems to be losing on ladder to really well positioned mass roach infestor like if you fight roach hydra in a choke you are going to die with that army composition. I just try to force attacks in chokes thats working well for me. Watch the 2 replays in the 3 replays I have. It shows me crushing a roach/ling/baneling all in and a roach/hydra bust. These are vs mid to high master korean zergs as well. Its possible to hold it trust me | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 11 2011 12:55 NrGmonk wrote: Have you seen the recent gsl games of mass muta vs mass muta? Seems like the standard transition is infestors plus a few spores to not get overwhelmed while you transition. I actually haven't you should tell me which games as I have been wanting to see those forever as when I watch them from idra or something both players always stay muta so I imagine its bad to transition into infestors due to losing complete map control. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
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apalemorning
Canada509 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
It is very frustrating trying to properly transition into other styles and secure more than 3 bases, particularly because opening mutas off 2 base sets your upgrades behind. | ||
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
On November 11 2011 13:11 NrGmonk wrote: Check out the yugioh vs minseok series from code A. I believe they both went mutas all 3 games. yeah, yugioh went for around 9ish (?) mutas, built some spores, and then immediately went to infestor. when his infestation pit popped he had enough for i think 8 infestors, and he used his mutas to bait the larger muta force into his infestors and he chain fungalled the entire ball to death. after that he just made tons of lings and infestors and expanded and went hive. now i know catching every muta with fungals is like a perfect storm and you can't bank on always being able to do that, but I'm interested to hear the opinions of some of the better players ITT. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 11 2011 16:04 oOOoOphidian wrote: How do you defend expansions best with this style? Spines do not seem to be enough and when many players go for Hydra/Roach attacks I can only defend my main and natural (sometimes also a 3rd) with Infestor/Roach/Spines, but I can't safely defend any other bases. I typically just counter attack, often with either Mutas or Infestor drops, but I get starved out a lot when they just keep taking more bases and their standing army is just better (faster upgrades, many hydras, etc). It is very frustrating trying to properly transition into other styles and secure more than 3 bases, particularly because opening mutas off 2 base sets your upgrades behind. You should be expanding in bad locations for him to attack. Like if he attacks it he has to commit because you have muta's to kill stray units so he would have to bring most if not all his army to kill it. If he does this instead of going for the kill counter attack with all your units and go for the base trade. At worst you do a lot of economic damage and you then have to retreat (you should have a good amount of spines being made when you see him commit to this so if he goes for the base trade you should win). Don't just try to defend if he goes for your third you need to go counter his main, do a lot of damage and if he retreats you pretty much win because you should be able to do a ton of damage to his economy. Then you can expand again and you have spines + ling/bane + muta to defend if he goes for the all in kill. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On November 11 2011 16:39 blade55555 wrote: You should be expanding in bad locations for him to attack. Like if he attacks it he has to commit because you have muta's to kill stray units so he would have to bring most if not all his army to kill it. If he does this instead of going for the kill counter attack with all your units and go for the base trade. At worst you do a lot of economic damage and you then have to retreat (you should have a good amount of spines being made when you see him commit to this so if he goes for the base trade you should win). Don't just try to defend if he goes for your third you need to go counter his main, do a lot of damage and if he retreats you pretty much win because you should be able to do a ton of damage to his economy. Then you can expand again and you have spines + ling/bane + muta to defend if he goes for the all in kill. Yes, I know that if they heavily commit to an attack you can counter attack, as I said, but what I have trouble with is ling squads (say, 20-30~ lings) that are not a commitment at all, but can kill a far away base very easily. Mutas don't move fast enough to actually help, spines aren't enough, and even with infestors at each base the lings overwhelm that. Once a player gets Hydras and Infestors out they can pretty easily expand, so it really isn't much of an investment for them to throw away kill squads like that to decimate hidden bases. Maybe my problem is that I avoid making lings much at all, which could help defend some of these attacks quite well. I'm really not understanding how anyone is getting away with mass muta styles as well, as I find players can just do roach/hydra timings and kill you. I prefer 7-15 mutas just initially for map control and harass, then completely switching into roach/infestor, but I am wondering if maybe that's just an irrational fear. | ||
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GettinMyFill
Australia37 Posts
And it's very easy to defend mutas. Most of the time you can get a faster third than the guy going muta, because, well, he's going muta. I feel like any strategy where you need to build 10,000 spine crawlers in order for it to be viable is just simply a mistake. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 11 2011 17:16 GettinMyFill wrote: It should be noted that muta play in ZvZ will die every time to a three-base timing push with roaches and hydras, if the mutas were well defended. And it's very easy to defend mutas. Most of the time you can get a faster third than the guy going muta, because, well, he's going muta. I feel like any strategy where you need to build 10,000 spine crawlers in order for it to be viable is just simply a mistake. Actually this is false knowledge. If this were true nobody would go muta's not nestea, not idra, like nobody unless they were going for an all in. With flanking maneuvers (or tech switching) you can hold it just fine with muta/ling/bane/roach or transitioning into roach/infestor and you will have excess minerals so spines aren't bad either. This is just false though to say that it will die every time to a three base timing. On November 11 2011 17:07 oOOoOphidian wrote: Yes, I know that if they heavily commit to an attack you can counter attack, as I said, but what I have trouble with is ling squads (say, 20-30~ lings) that are not a commitment at all, but can kill a far away base very easily. Mutas don't move fast enough to actually help, spines aren't enough, and even with infestors at each base the lings overwhelm that. Once a player gets Hydras and Infestors out they can pretty easily expand, so it really isn't much of an investment for them to throw away kill squads like that to decimate hidden bases. Maybe my problem is that I avoid making lings much at all, which could help defend some of these attacks quite well. I'm really not understanding how anyone is getting away with mass muta styles as well, as I find players can just do roach/hydra timings and kill you. I prefer 7-15 mutas just initially for map control and harass, then completely switching into roach/infestor, but I am wondering if maybe that's just an irrational fear. You should have lings yourself, and unless he went muta himself you should have overlords to stop them. A thing I do is put a bit of my lings at my third and morph a few into banelings. This works quiet well if you can't stop the lings in time Surviving roach/hydra timings isn't that hard, and if they wait for infestors that is more then enough time for you to transition if that is what you choose to do. If you choose to go ling/bane/muta you need to be flanking from at minimum 2 different sides. This way 2 fungels isn't instant gg. Don't forget banelings now take 2 fungles and if they are coming from 4 different sides that requires 8 fungels and if he's doing a 2 base timing he won't have a lot of hydra's AND infestors so this is pretty easy to deal with. A 3 base timing you can do the same thing just make sure to split your muta's to and focus the hydra's while having the banelings go for the hydra's as well. It takes good control to do this style, roach/hydra/infestor is easier to control as it allows for more room for error where as muta play does not. | ||
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Pillage
United States804 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 11 2011 17:48 Pillage wrote: A question for you OP, which attack upgrade should be prioritized: Attack or Carapace? I have been told by many that carapace is better through their research, I am taking their word for it so would go for carapace | ||
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GettinMyFill
Australia37 Posts
On November 11 2011 17:39 blade55555 wrote: Actually this is false knowledge. If this were true nobody would go muta's not nestea, not idra, like nobody unless they were going for an all in. With flanking maneuvers (or tech switching) you can hold it just fine with muta/ling/bane/roach or transitioning into roach/infestor and you will have excess minerals so spines aren't bad either. This is just false though to say that it will die every time to a three base timing. If you defend the mutas properly without getting yourself into an economic disadvantage, maxing out at around 15-16 minutes on 2/2 roach/hydra should do just fine if you split and protect your hydras from banelings. Mass muta is difficult without infestors, but doable. Considering the infestor damage nerf, it makes the infestor transition from muta more of a gas sink than hydras and upgrades are. You can take a fourth and fifth at this time most of the time, while you tech to Hive. If you go muta, you need to be able to do a LOT of economic damage, disabling their third while you get your own. That being said, the best answer to muta is get a faster third, which makes it difficult. If mutas were invincible then you would see 100% of the games being muta vs muta. This is a build that can die, just like every other ZvZ build, because that is just the nature of the matchup. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 11 2011 17:52 GettinMyFill wrote: If you defend the mutas properly without getting yourself into an economic disadvantage, maxing out at around 15-16 minutes on 2/2 roach/hydra should do just fine if you split and protect your hydras from banelings. Mass muta is difficult without infestors, but doable. Considering the infestor damage nerf, it makes the infestor transition from muta more of a gas sink than hydras and upgrades are. You can take a fourth and fifth at this time most of the time, while you tech to Hive. If you go muta, you need to be able to do a LOT of economic damage, disabling their third while you get your own. That being said, the best answer to muta is get a faster third, which makes it difficult. If mutas were invincible then you would see 100% of the games being muta vs muta. This is a build that can die, just like every other ZvZ build, because that is just the nature of the matchup. Its not invincible but there really isn't any 100% win vs muta play was my point if you aren't already super far behind. If it were again nobody would do it because EVERY zerg would do a 3 base timing and ALWAYS win. But they don't because if you do everything properly, control muta's, dont' lose them stupidly, you will defend the push just fine. At lower levels yes this is true because they don't know how to transition properly or being super greedy or not macroing correctly or many other huge mistakes. | ||
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Pillage
United States804 Posts
On November 11 2011 17:50 blade55555 wrote: I have been told by many that carapace is better through their research, I am taking their word for it so would go for carapace This seems logical as it helps to counter the ridiculous effect the glaive bounce has when you get a big muta ball. This is also what I've heard in the past. Just wanted your insight. | ||
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