EPT[G]zerg vs zerg Muta play - Page 4
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Vandroy
Sweden155 Posts
| ||
|
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
A common thing you will run into on ladder is your opponent going for a roach/ling all in or some roach bust attempting to hit before your spire finishes. You should see this coming a mile away. With your lings you should be sacrificing them to see his unit count. If you see roaches on the field you should make a couple spines asap. If you send lings again and see a lot of roaches you need to make more spines. this is very crucial as you will die if he does a bust and you don't make enough spines with ling/bane support. I have a couple replays that will show you this. so I'm guessing from this to defend from roach busts have... Lots of spines, and when he runs into the spines (?) flank with lings and attack into him with banes or something (on both sides) so he doesn't run past them spines? :o | ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 11 2011 18:35 zhurai wrote: so I'm guessing from this to defend from roach busts have... Lots of spines, and when he runs into the spines (?) flank with lings and attack into him with banes or something (on both sides) so he doesn't run past them spines? :o Yes you should have at bare minimum 6 spines (again with seeing his drone count + seeing his roach count by scouting him with lings) you should be able to get it up in time. Having ling support you need as well. I have a replay of a player doing this to me and me holding it off  | ||
|
Synk
United States297 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 11 2011 18:52 Synk wrote: I'm curious how you deal with infesters, I find once their are 4 or more out going near the other zergs base is just insanely dangerous. When I used to go mass muta more often I lost a few games where all my muta got fungaled and that was GG on the spot. Fungal is 9 range and muta's move rather quickly so .. do you just stop harassing once you see infesters ? I can't see how this build is reliable at all once infesters are out. ( I do like making 7-8 for early map control but more than that seems like suicide against roach infester ) If he's going just roach infestor thats kind of silly. To do that you would need to get like at least 8 infestors which is hard to do off of 2 bases which the other zerg will be expanding. You should never EVER flock all your muta's into his base at once. That is asking to be fungeled. You should always send a single muta ahead of the others so you can see that then retreat if you see an infestation pit or to check where his infestors are so as you don't go flying over them. You do not need to do economic damage with muta's, you should also spread them whenever possible before engaging or anything so 1 fungel doesn't fuck you up. If you engage his army you need to spread your muta or again they wil get fungeled and killed. If they are spread it requires a lot more fungels then if they are bunched and you will have ling/baneling as well so he'll want to be fungling all of that not just muta (or his hydra's/infestors will die to the banelings). Again when going muta play it is a lot easier to screw up and then lose the game due to it. If you over do aggression with mutalisks and get fungeled honestly you are pretty much done for. Mistakes going heavy muta play are a lot worse then doing only 7 muta while the rest are whatever you are transitioning into. This takes a lot of practice to know the different scenario's and how to deal with it. | ||
|
Synk
United States297 Posts
| ||
|
evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I just expand and toss up 12321 spine crawlers if I see roaches and I tech quickly to mutalisks. Muta vs Muta is comfortable for me comming from BW. just don't suicide them. Make lots of spores (you WILL have excess minerals) and pump zerglings off 5 hatcheries while teching to hive. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The point of the mutas are 2 fold: 1. To be safe from roach based all-ins (roach/ling, speedroach, 2/0 roach, 1/1 roach, roach/hydra) 2. To get a small macro lead through killing overlord (enough to make muta pay for themselves) 3. To be safe from mutas yourself (the best counter to mutas is mutas, as it is). If the opponent goes mass hydra, you get speedbanes and more mutas and you just absolutely roll him. Hydras are expensive, by the time he has enough, you will have a huge flock of mutas that will just shred his roaches leftover. Also, mutas will beat hydras 1v1 when it's large enough, about 15+ mutas gets to the point where 15 mutas > 15 hydras (much like muta vs stalker). You will be in and out of his base all game long, so if he's going infestors, you just expand and get your own infestation pit. Roach/Infestor handles mutas much better than roach/hydra/infestor, but you will be just behind enough due to your late expansion (infestors gain zero ability to get a third until you have about 6 of them, which takes a long time, enough for muta player to be taking their fourth when you can take your third) and killed overlords. Getting supply blocked en masse really hurts when you need free supply to get those infestors or hydras out. Once about 15+ mutas arrive, spores suddenly can't defend real well anymore, and they just park them between your main and nat and just kill all the overlords and units being rallied. The only way I've really lost in lategame going mutas is when I was metagamed by some tricky guy. He made it look like he was going muta/ling (mass spines, fast 4 gas, no roach warren for a long time, and he hid his roaches very well under overlords) and I made like 20 mutas and out came 8 infestors very quickly. But it was by surprise, if I saw his infestation pit I wouldve just made my own and killed him. Once the opponent gets infestation pit, you have to get yours. it's okay to get it later, since they are slow units and you should have a macro lead. If he's still on roach based army, you get a better roach/infestor army. Roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor, so forcing him to make hydras will be good for you. Otherwise, the game 90% of the time ends at muta vs muta, but from there you can go into muta/infestor or ultra/ling. depending on how back and forth the game is. Infestors can be a saving grace if you are completely behind in muta vs muta and if you get a lucky fungal off, then storming him with infestor/muta/ling can win the game. But the opponent should be getting ultras, or ultras should be the next step if the game is even, to counter any infestor play and deal with mass ling/bane. I stopped making roach warren in zvz though. You really shouldn't be making one early game anyways. There are some maps where mutas aren't good though, particularly smaller maps where the natural and third are really wide open and spines make it impossible to hold. From there you can play mass roach on 2 base into infestors. I am curious about muta micro. I am not sure if focus fire is useful, or if you should be clumping up or not against enemy mutas. I suppose if they are running away it's good micro to learn to shoot and scoot. | ||
|
oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On November 12 2011 07:49 Belial88 wrote:I am curious about muta micro. I am not sure if focus fire is useful, or if you should be clumping up or not against enemy mutas. I suppose if they are running away it's good micro to learn to shoot and scoot. I am pretty sure focus firing is really bad when the numbers get high. I actually had a lead in mutas recently and ended up losing horribly because I was trying too hard to focus fire. It's very effective for low muta counts, though. | ||
|
Trakky
95 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
| ||
|
Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 19 2011 16:36 Venomsflame wrote: If you lose a few mutas unnecessarily and your opponent gets ahead in muta count in a muta vs muta game, is the game just over? Is it worth making even a few corruptors to try and get air control back? Sometimes you can switch to infestor and stay in the game but muta vs muta is tricky if their gas timings are better than yours or you lose a few and get behind. Guess my question is are corruptors the right response to this situation? To be honest I am not sure. I know corruptors are very good vs muta's and I haven't actually ever tested that out. I will give that a shot actually in my next zvz muta vs muta battle and add in some corruptors because now I am curious myself . Will post a reply with results :D | ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
| ||
|
Vandroy
Sweden155 Posts
On November 11 2011 18:33 Vandroy wrote: Hey blade nice guide yet again! In muta vs muta battle it's actually pretty neat to always engage with lings below your mutas. Not a lot of people seem to know or use this but if you do then your ling will take all the bounces from the mutas instead of other mutas. This gives you the chance to get back in a muta war if your opponent doesn't bring his lings too. To quote myself, if you do this it's better to upgrade attack for mutas since they won't be taking any glavie bounces anyway. | ||
|
ALPINA
3791 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 22 2011 07:24 Alpina wrote: I recently was playing a lot zvz with muta ling baneling and usually just fail if my opponent is not bad. He goes for strong roach hydra infestor attack and i die. I can't even really deny third cause he gets fast hydras. Can't harass main or natural cause every single zerg nowadays expects mutas and 3 spores are already at each base. Attacking with lings baneling against fungals again completelly depends on opponent. If he has 5+ infestors he can fungal from all sides and you are dead, flanks works when opponent is bad. I guess i will try to do something like 10 mutas into roach hydra, seems most reliable strategy, cause hive tech is usually too late if opponent is not sleeping. I disagree. If he has 5+ infestors you should have a lot of units, good flanking positions and spine crawlers + hive tech going up. You should be starting hive at about 13-14 minutes and with spine + ling/bane flanks + 18 or so muta you will hold just fine. You are probably flanking wrong due to not having as much experience with it. Many zergs don't flank and you won't be good at it for awhile. You can say it only works when the opponent is bad but that is incorrect and your way of just giving up or just not getting the hang of it. If you are already behind then no amount of flanking is going to help you, if you are macroing bad no flanks aren't going to help you most likely. If you are behind you shouldn't go muta's anyway. Now you can do 10 muta's into roach/hydra that is fine its completely valid and isn't as hard as ling/bane/muta because with ling/bane/muta you fuck up once you instantly lose its alot less forgiving. For muta you don't have to commit to them I do and I know others do to but again a lot less forgiving for mistakes which is why most people don't like it. | ||
|
Poopfeast
160 Posts
 Nice guide. When I wrote this guide 8 months ago, everyone said it wasn't viable at all even though I beat top players with it. No balanced patches to anti-air/mutas were made since, except for the insignificant(vs light muta) fungal nerf. Now everyone seems to be using the style that I described 8 months ago. | ||
|
Ninety-Three
United States68 Posts
On November 22 2011 08:05 Unfeared wrote: Nice guide. When I wrote this guide 8 months ago, everyone said it wasn't viable at all even though I beat top players with it. No balanced patches to anti-air/mutas were made since, except for the insignificant(vs light muta) fungal nerf. Now everyone seems to be using the style that I described 8 months ago. The only thing that's really changed is knowledge, I'd say. People "knew" that a muta transition made you die outright to anything, and once we saw a few very good players not die during the transition, we got a chance to see how it's done, but more importantly, that it's possible at all! Now that people aren't afraid to just try it out and keep working on it if they get a few silly losses at first, it's being shown time and time again that mutas are a good, viable part of the zvz metagame | ||
|
babo213
United States266 Posts
On November 22 2011 08:05 Unfeared wrote: Nice guide. When I wrote this guide 8 months ago, everyone said it wasn't viable at all even though I beat top players with it. No balanced patches to anti-air/mutas were made since, except for the insignificant(vs light muta) fungal nerf. Now everyone seems to be using the style that I described 8 months ago. 8 months ago didn't fungal make them stay still for 8 seconds still? | ||
| ||
