EPTI'm a little lost as to what to do when you encounter someone else doing the same thing... Muta/ling vs Muta/ling is a multitasking nightmare.
[G]zerg vs zerg Muta play - Page 2
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
I'm a little lost as to what to do when you encounter someone else doing the same thing... Muta/ling vs Muta/ling is a multitasking nightmare. | ||
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
On November 06 2011 09:36 galtdunn wrote: Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc? stop making mutas after your inital batch pops up against non-muta play, but keep making mutas vs mutas. Also keep up with upgrades and make sure you stay even or can get ahead by taking a hidden base. On November 06 2011 23:02 decaf wrote: This is not quite true and one of the reasons I win muta vs muta battles. Armor upgrade >> attack upgrade. Let's say you have 8 mutas with +1 armor and your opponent has 10 mutas with +1 attack, guess what, you'll win. Muta vs muta and muta vs thor (you stop at 1 armor vs thor though) is the only 2 situations where you want to get the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade. +1 attack beats +1 armor, but +2 attack loses to +2 armor in fights if you target fire. On November 07 2011 02:21 darkscream wrote: I really like the whole, "make 7 mutas and then do something else" strategy. Basically because you get your lair first, you see what they're doing totally, Get a bunch of mutas for free overlord kills, get to expand or even double expand, and then respond to scouting. I think +1 carapace on ground is important, It basically counters the standard anti-ling strats (banelings, +1 roach) and leaves you open to move to roaches yourself. I'm a little lost as to what to do when you encounter someone else doing the same thing... Muta/ling vs Muta/ling is a multitasking nightmare. have better upgrades when you fight, make sure you make as many mtuas as you can because if you lose one battle, you most likely aren't going to win unless you have upgrade advantage or another base secured. Also need to scout and make sure he doesn't sneak any bases. If he gets one base up on you thats 220more gas a minute income and he will have more mutas. Also use extra minerals to take bases and use the lings to snipe his hatcheries down because gas income is most important here. It also helps to make a couple banelings in fights (2-3) not more then 4 because that will effect your muta numbers too much early on like on 2 base vs 2 base or when your thirds are both just starting up On November 06 2011 22:34 Alpina wrote: I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that. Muta vs muta mid games you can't tech to ultralisks. Thats way too much gas to invest in without saccing your muta count and if you try to tech to ultralisks (ultra upgrade, melee/carapace upgrades, then the utlralisk itself) is way too much gas so you won't have enough muta numbers to fend off the other person's mutas. The only time you should really start teching is after your 4th base is up or when there is a stale mate where you can't kill him, but he can't kill you either because of the spores adding extra defense, but even then it would be really risky. Hydralisks and infestors are really slow. If you scout a non-muta mid game, you just make an initial batch of mutas and then switch immediatly into roaches and infestors. I wouldn't even get upgrades for mutas because you don't want to be investing in them. The mutas give you map control while you can safely take a third and get your macro going. Remember it takes 5 fungals now to kill mutalisks with infestors. If you split up your mutas into 2 groups, thats 5 fungals each (thats a lot off of 2 bases because you only have 4 gas (448). If you understand the matchup enough, you can also make the zerg waste infestor fungals on mutalisks or lone batches of lings or something so that when you fight with muta/ling against his infestor/hydra or roach army he will not have enough fungals to stop all your lings Counter attacking is also a viable option. If he tries to build his third when he pushes, 10 lings is more then enough to force a cancel on that hatchery or if he stays on 2 bases, just put down crawlers and hold the attack and you will win because he won't be able to replenish that army on 2 bases (assuming you took a third) Taking a third base is also tricky here. The first thing you need to know is if they are going to get mutas, or stick with infestors or if they are doing some sort of timing push. Timing push = crawlers & no third tech to muta or infestors = take third before your mutas are done so you can spore up by the time the mutas are out. To keep the third base secure, you have to be worried about either roach/infestor/hydra timing pushes, ling runbys, or muta attacks. 3 spores is more then enough to bide time for your muta flock to get over there and drive the other mutas off. Against ling counter attacks, I tend to keep a couple banelings next to my third so i can move my speedlings quickly over there but still have banelings there so that the other zerg can't just amove and kill the hatchery. Against roach/infestor pushes you should be able to have roaches/infestors and a functional thrid base by the time he pushes, otherwise you are not droning early enough. However, muta builds are not viable in zvz anymore because of the fact that if the zerg sees 2 gas taken at your nat at an early time, they can either assume fast mutas or fast infestors and that there will be no chance of attacking. With that in mind, they can just take a third and by the time the tech DOES come out to be effective, you won't be able to cancel that third because it will be up and have defenses ready and in that way, you will get outmacroed and won't be able to take a third base or it will be really hard to secure it and even a fourth because its 6 gas vs 4 gas. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On November 07 2011 02:35 Br3ezy wrote: +1 attack beats +1 armor, but +2 attack loses to +2 armor in fights if you target fire. Wrong. Do some research before you make claims. + Show Spoiler + Those were 12 mutas and 4 of the +1 armored mutas survived. Also did it with 15 mutas and 6 of the +1 armored mutas survived. edit: No one target fires in muta vs muta. | ||
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
edit: LOL? no one target fires in muta vs muta? I guess no one target fires banelings with siege tanks either right? or target fires with marines vs mutas or marines vs banelings or hellions vs drones? Did you really just try to win an argument by saying no one target fires in muta vs muta? | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
Are you really comparing siege tank vs banelings with muta vs muta now? | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On November 06 2011 07:48 blade55555 wrote: Muta vs Muta You should continue getting muta attack upgrades if he keeps going muta. This is what I do, My apologizes if this come across as me being a know it all. But if you want to specifically win a Muta vs Muta battle, you want the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade. I also just saw that people have been talking about this. A friend and I tested this out a while ago. +1 armor is better that +1 attack for your mutalisk against other mutalisks, the reason for this is because of the bounce of the attack. on the +1 side of the attack. it adds 1 damage for the initial hit, .5 damage on the 1st bounce, and .25 on the 2nd bounce. adding 1.75 damage each hit. However. if you get +1 armor, it subtracts 1 damage from each bounce. subtracting a total of 3 damage with each attack. I know this may not seem like it is a big deal but if you have equal amounts of mutalisks fighting each other. the one with +1 armor will always win with several mutalisks left over. Other things that Catechin and I tested was the actual engagements. I vaguely remember a blizzard patch that may of fixed this. But you dont want to just fly your mutas spread out into the other mutalisks. Every once in a while you will have a stupid muta who will fly into the middle of the other flock and insta die. The best way to fight a muta vs muta battle is to stack your mutalisks and let them come at you because this makes sure all of your mutalisks will shoot at once, and you don't have a random mutalisk flying into their flock and insta dieing. And strangely enough you do not want to focus fire in high numbers of mutalisk vs mutalisk battles. Just let them attack and the bounce will usually take care of itself. And if you don't believe me. then please test out this stuff for yourself  P.S. like i said. there may of been a patch to fix the stupid muta. but i dont remember where or when it was. EDIT: You only want the armor if HE is going mutalisk as well. Otherwise it should be obvious that attack would be better. But armor is what you want when you really want to control the air. EDIT2: also blade. really nice guides these are actually the play styles i love to use. so thank you for all of your guides. i love them all ^_^ | ||
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:00 decaf wrote: I saw that TL screwed up the pics so I'm only providing the links now. Are you really comparing siege tank vs banelings with muta vs muta now? i dont know, are you really saying target firing mutas in muta vs muta battles is not important? in all mirror matchups, its obviosly the most important part of micro in order to keep the most units alive. You aren't going to get an advantage with different units if you have the same unit so you need to make sure you have more of that unit. Its just like saying you don't micro zealots vs zealot battles, marine vs marine battles, stalker vs stalker battles, and the list goes on. In any X vs X unit battles, target firing is half of if you win or lose it let me be more specific about muta vs muta focus firing. To get an advantage in big battles, or even smaller battles, of like lets just say 15 mutas vs 15 mutas. It takes X amount of muta shots to kill another mutalisk. Your obviously not going to use all your mutalisks to kill another mutalisk. I don't know how many shots specifically it takes to kill a mutalisk, but an example is like when you have to micro in a roach/ling all in vs marines. When you target fire with roaches, you arent going to make 5 of them attack 1 marine (without combat shield) because you waste one roach shot. You only need to use 4 to kill them. it maximizes your dps in battles so lets say it takes 10 shots to kill another mutalisk. if you have 15 mutalisks vs 15 mutalisks and it takes 10 shots to kill 1 mutalisk, then only use 10 mutalisks to target fire on 1 muta while the other 5 can attack another one to maximize your dps | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
edit, response to your edit: yes, that's what I'm talking about. you will overkill in most situations and that's why it's bad for that matter. Now it's still not proven that attack wins over armor if both perfectly micro and target fire like that (besides the fact that this is almost impossible in an ingame scenario). For everyone with not perfect micro (everyone who plays this game) the armor upgrade will be better. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:03 Br3ezy wrote: i dont know, are you really saying target firing mutas in muta vs muta battles is not important? in all mirror matchups, its obviosly the most important part of micro in order to keep the most units alive. You aren't going to get an advantage with different units if you have the same unit so you need to make sure you have more of that unit. Its just like saying you don't micro zealots vs zealot battles, marine vs marine battles, stalker vs stalker battles, and the list goes on. In any X vs X unit battles, target firing is half of if you win or lose it let me be more specific about muta vs muta focus firing. To get an advantage in big battles, or even smaller battles, of like lets just say 15 mutas vs 15 mutas. It takes X amount of muta shots to kill another mutalisk. Your obviously not going to use all your mutalisks to kill another mutalisk. I don't know how many shots specifically it takes to kill a mutalisk, but an example is like when you have to micro in a roach/ling all in vs marines. When you target fire with roaches, you arent going to make 5 of them attack 1 marine (without combat shield) because you waste one roach shot. You only need to use 4 to kill them. it maximizes your dps in battles so lets say it takes 10 shots to kill another mutalisk. if you have 15 mutalisks vs 15 mutalisks and it takes 10 shots to kill 1 mutalisk, then only use 10 mutalisks to target fire on 1 muta while the other 5 can attack another one to maximize your dps On +1 armor vs. +1 attack i think it's quite obvious why +1 armor is better. If you get +1 attack and i +1 armor then our bonus damage is nulified, right? Now +1 attack give +0.33 for second bounce, and +0.11 to third bounce, while +1 armor completelly nulifis those two. So it's obvious that +1 armor is much better. On micro side, i am not sure if it's even worth microing mutas when you got like 20 vs. 20 of them, they do damage very fast and you possible even screw something up, but maybe it's worth if you are very good at it dunno. And on your advice to go roach hydra after mutas i am not sure if i can keep up with oponent go goes roach hydra infestor, especially because my upgrades gonna be slower, but i will try to go into roach hydra. | ||
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:10 decaf wrote: Target fire is only important if you have _very_ few mutas, like a handful and only if one is weaked and you're sure how many muta shots it will need to take a damaged muta down. Once you have too many mutalisks to manually micro and you will overkill target fire becomes ridiculously bad. And even if you target fire I still do not believe that attack upgraded mutas come out on top in that situation. Go ahead and provide replays/videos/picutres/whatever to prove me wrong. I've always gone for the armor upgrade and it works out great against attack upgraded mutas (as I've proven with my pictures). edit, response to your edit: yes, that's what I'm talking about. you will overkill in most situations and that's why it's bad for that matter. Now it's still not proven that attack wins over armor if both perfectly micro and target fire like that (besides the fact that this is almost impossible in an ingame scenario). For everyone with not perfect micro (everyone who plays this game) the armor upgrade will be better. to be honest, this is the last thing that happens in zvz. You are going to win or lose for a million reasons before this because this is like a "perfect scenario" situation, but nothing is ever perfect | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 07 2011 04:20 blade55555 wrote: All right armor's better lol guess i'll edit that but so far that was the only complaint I read ^^. Can you say something on this? ^^ On November 06 2011 22:34 Alpina wrote: I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 07 2011 04:41 Alpina wrote: Can you say something on this? ^^ Oh missed that. If he's only on 2 bases honestly I would just make a ton of muta/ling/bane, and again go for the full on flank. You should kill him with this (spread your muta's to so that fungels can't get your muta's and banelings). If he's doing this all off of 2 bases he can't have that many hydra's AND infestors so you should clean it up no problem, and you should have spine support as well I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that. I also disagree with this statement. If you do what I say with the flanking and full surround with banelings you will win the fight on or off creep. If you engage off creep thats better for you because of how bad hydra's are off creep. Or you can do a muta/ling/roach build and that should beat it pretty handily to with spine support. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
One thing that's quite unexplored in spire vs spire is corruptors. I met 1 opponent who just went straight up corruptors when he scouted mine, took complete air control, then started adding mutas. After that it's just downhill all the way, switching back to hydras or infestors just seem awkward. Going infestors will let you lose complete map control until you get a critical mass, while he adds more bases. And if you go hydra tech, his constant ling+bling pressure keeps your hydra count down while he masses up more mutas >.> | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Quantum617
United States37 Posts
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RHUmbra
United States34 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 07 2011 06:25 RHUmbra wrote: Really cool guide, I think i'll try and go this muta style in my future zvz's, at least for a while. Just mix it in, doesn't have to be your standard build .On November 07 2011 05:53 Quantum617 wrote: If I smell/scout muta play I turtle up a 3rd with spores and infestors and then just lean on my bank Turtle to much and enjoy ultra or broodlord ruining your day ^_^. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
Obviously, it wouldn't be easy, but I'm wondering if anyone has given it a try yet | ||
FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
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