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Why hello there its been awhile since I have written another guide and I figured with muta's becoming more popular in zvz time to write a guide on it.
Other guides:
zerg vs zerg hatch first vs 14/14: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
Zerg vs Protoss guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
I have personally been finding muta's super effective lately and is actually making me enjoy zvz a bit. I have personally always hated the infestor play and before muta's were seen as being gimicky in zvz but now its becoming more "standard" you could say. Before I really start here is my other zvz guide if you want to see my early - mid game in more detail ( in terms of defending and what not)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
The build is a slight variation and is going to assume he is not all inning so keep that in mind. If he is all inning and you know it you do want to make adjustments like more spines, units, delay lair, delay muta, etc which I explain below!
--------Build--------
9 - overlord
9- drone scout (this is personal preference ,
I prefer to 9 drone scout in case they do some early pool builds)
15 - hatchery
14- spawning pool
17 - gas
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
as soon as spawning pool finishes throw down a roach warren
and make 6-8 lings + 1 queen if its long rush distant maps, otherwise do 8 lings and wait for roach warren to finish.. If you want you can make a queen as well
but delay the queen for a little bit to throw down that roach warren first.
21-22 – overlord
get speed when you feel you can spare 100/100
Get 2nd and third gas at about 6:40-7 minutes
start lair right as soon as you have the 100 gas for it
4'th gas at about 7:30-7:45 your choice, later if he is doing an all in
spire as soon as lair finishes
--------Hatch first vs Hatch first Build--------
9 - overlord
9- drone scout (this is personal preference ,
I prefer to 9 drone scout in case they do some early pool builds)
15 - hatchery
16-18- spawning pool
17 - gas
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
Make 4 lings use 1 to scout
21-22 baneling nest (incase they go all in ling)
get 2nd and third gas 6:40-7 minutes
start lair with the next 100 gas
get 4'th gas at about 7:30-7:45 your choice, later if he is doing an all in
That is my basic build order for the early game. Again if you want more in depth on my decisions just go to that thread I linked to.
Concept of Mutalisks in zvz
+ Show Spoiler +When going muta's the point of this is to secure a third and contain your opponent while giving you complete map control. You will kill stray overlords on the map, try to deny his third if he moves out, harass him while being very careful about infestors. The goal of muta play is to get more bases and be able to run him over with better macro due to your superior economy.
You want to try to avoid direct army to army confrontations until you are positive you will win the fight. You should be making spine crawlers so that if he engages you can use spine crawlers as a helpful defense to defend his attack.
You want to take your third in a spot that will be a problem for your opponent to kill off. An example would be on taldarim lets say you are cross positions you are top right, he is bottom left you would want to take your third on the main of top left or bottom right.
This way if he attacks it you can just counter and screw up his economy. He can't just send a few units to kill it due to muta's so he has to really commit to it. This is a win/win for you as you get a third, if he commits you counter and destroy his economy and force him into an all in. You want to take the "normal" third base locations as your next base.
Transition phase
+ Show Spoiler +Now this part is really up to you. you can transition into roach/hydra, roach/infestor or you can transition into hive tech ultra's or hive tech broodlords. You can make 10 muta, you can make 30 muta you can only make 7 if thats your fancy and want to transition. I personally love going mass muta with ling/baneling with flanking maneuvers.
An example of this would be he's coming with a roach/hydra/infestor army that has to kill you. You have ling/bane in the front by your spines, then ling baneling in other flanking situations so when you engage you hit the front, side, back if possible. It requires more fungels to stop and he can't just run backwords he is trapped in a since. He has to engage there and try to fungel all the banelings but from 4 sides thats a lot of fungels.
I know most zergs prefer the ultra route but I personally prefer the Broodlord route. My reasoning is pretty simple for this, you have air control, you already have a spire, you should have muta still so why not just go into broodlords? They mess with the AI of ground units (hydra), if he goes corruptor you already have a bunch of muta's so thats not really a viable option for him, so he has infestors/hydra. You will have muta/ling/bane/broodlord with infestors yourself if you choose to. I feel its superior at least in theory again I haven't had many cases in zerg vs zerg to do this yet so it is possible I am completely wrong.
Muta vs Muta
+ Show Spoiler +In muta vs muta battles do not engage his muta unless you are positive you have more then him. If you lose your muta and he has a lot left you are pretty much guaranteed to lose. If you trade muta then its fine but you want to avoid confrontations until you are positive you will win. You should continue getting muta armor upgrades if he keeps going muta. This is what I do, if he has more muta and you can't deny his third then you will have to transition into hydra or infestors.
In general you should continue mutalisk production, because you are already investing into them and if you transition you lose air control, your muta's are useless depending on how many you make can be 800 gas wasted if you transition and not go into muta vs muta.
Defending vs busts while waiting for your spire
+ Show Spoiler +A common thing you will run into on ladder is your opponent going for a roach/ling all in or some roach bust attempting to hit before your spire finishes. You should see this coming a mile away. With your lings you should be sacrificing them to see his unit count. If you see roaches on the field you should make a couple spines asap. If you send lings again and see a lot of roaches you need to make more spines. this is very crucial as you will die if he does a bust and you don't make enough spines with ling/bane support. I have a couple replays that will show you this.
As long as you are constantly scouting you should NOT die to any busts. As soon as your lair finishes you should make an overseer and see what he is doing ( its 50/50 so worth it). This will tell you if he is going muta himself, going hydra's or going infestors or if he's going for a roach/ling/bane bust.
Now I can't think of any other things to put at this second, if you have any questions feel free to ask if you have seen any of my other guides you should know I answer every question I see. If I missed something on this guide please point it out and I will edit the section in. If I forgot something I will update this guide.
Here are the replays only 3 right now but has me of muta vs muta, someone trying to roach/ling/bane bust me before muta, and a roach/hydra attempted bust when I have muta's out on the field. I will be uploading more replays as I get them right now only 3. Hope this helps you guys out and enjoy the muta play!
http://www.mediafire.com/?b6kcka20zl1eti2
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Good job on constantly putting work into new guides. The SC2 community needs more people like you.
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Mutas are awesome! Think one of the best matches to watch was Idra vs Sheth in MLG global invitational. Sheth tried to attack with roach hydra and mutas just kept sniping cos hydras are so damn slow. Mutas truly force your opponent to stay in their base before roach hydra infestor. By that time, you either have an awesome muta ling bling force, way superior economy so more roaches, or hive tech.
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thanks doooooooooooooood! <33333333333333333333333333333333333333333
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mutalisks arent effective in zvz anymore. If the other zerg knows you are teching, he can just take an early third with little to no damage that can be done to him and he just comes out economically ahead
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What do you think of a transition in to ling + bane with double upgrades starting immediately after the initial mutas? I find that this sets up nicely for ultras and is very helpful for runbys and hatchery snipes as he is often prepared with sufficient anti air but doesn't have enough to stop the lings from just focusing down a hatch when he is out of position. Burrowed banes is also very helpful when you have denied his third enough and he just accumulates a large roach hydra army for one large bust, it usually doesn't occur to them to get an overseer in this situation. If he incorporates banes himself with infestor though it shuts this down unless you are close enough to ultras.
Transitioning in to roaches seems like a more solid choice that I have yet to tinker with, but it just seems like due to the opponents earlier upgrades and hydras/infestors that his ground army would win every engagement that wasn't by the spines. I usually only make about 7-8 muta just to deny third and kill overlords so they are almost a non-factor in an army vs army battle, should I be making more? Usually my third kicks in and I win just by having that extra base, but this doesn't work so well if he smells the mutas due to the early gas and the spines and gets his third very quickly.
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I love mutas in ZvZ, and I have 2 points that you might want to add:
1. When you get mutas, you HAVE to be aggressive at all times. You cannot let him prepare for your mutas, because if he does, the other zerg can hit a super hard to deal with timing while you dont have a stronger econ and his tech counters most of yours (roach/hydra will destroy a roach/muta or ling/bane/muta if they prepared correctly). When I attack I usually have an order that I use, such as:
-Queens (or hydras if in small numbers, like 3 or 4)
-Spores
-Units on gas
-Units on minerals
2. Having a group of 6 lings patroling around the map helps deny any ling scouts that may be coming, which increases the chance that he won't prepare for your mutas. Denying scouting is extremely important.
My two cents 
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On November 06 2011 08:24 DBunny wrote:
What do you think of a transition in to ling + bane with double upgrades starting immediately after the initial mutas? I find that this sets up nicely for ultras and is very helpful for runbys and hatchery snipes as he is often prepared with sufficient anti air but doesn't have enough to stop the lings from just focusing down a hatch when he is out of position. Burrowed banes is also very helpful when you have denied his third enough and he just accumulates a large roach hydra army for one large bust, it usually doesn't occur to them to get an overseer in this situation. If he incorporates banes himself with infestor though it shuts this down unless you are close enough to ultras.
Transitioning in to roaches seems like a more solid choice that I have yet to tinker with, but it just seems like due to the opponents earlier upgrades and hydras/infestors that his ground army would win every engagement that wasn't by the spines. I usually only make about 7-8 muta just to deny third and kill overlords so they are almost a non-factor in an army vs army battle, should I be making more? Usually my third kicks in and I win just by having that extra base, but this doesn't work so well if he smells the mutas due to the early gas and the spines and gets his third very quickly.
Thats a fine transition as long as he isn't going muta himself. If he is going mutas as well you are going to have less then him due to spending money on upgrades while he should be putting all his gas into muta + muta upgrades.
You can do burrowed banelings, I know I have an overseer with me when I would go roach/hydra vs muta but I do know that most zergs don't do this for some reason so this is probably good to do, especially if they don't go muta themselves.
If you spread your banelings properly (which you should once you see infestors honestly), it takes 2 fungels to kill them so if he wastes a fungel on that you should have 2 control groups of ling/bane for flanking and spread out a bit so 1 fungel doesn't get most of them. You should do this with muta as well before engaging so that he doesn't get all your muta with 1 fungel.
Making more muta is up to you, there isn't a must but if he is going muta as well you should probably transition if you don't like muta vs muta battles but then you lose map control, I personally make more but you don't have to.
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This is a great little guide.
A suggestion, when it's hatch first vs hatch first you should get gas before pool, this will give you earlier speed and that may decide the game in some situations. I usually do 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool 17 overlord in ZvZ if both players went for hatch first.
Also you didn't cover the scenario if both players went for mutas, this is quite different from only one player opting for mutalisks. I covered it in my muta zvz guide I wrote way back ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198622 ), but I consider it kinda outdated, although it still might be a great build.
Something I also find very useful when going mutas is baneling landmines to kill of huge packs of hydras/infestors when they're moving towards your ramp. You can just clean up his army after that, because all the AA will be gone.
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Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc?
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On November 06 2011 09:36 galtdunn wrote:
Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc?
To be honest I don't really know what else to put there. in muta vs muta I just continue making muta and expanding so I can have the superior muta flock. Transitioning can be hard because you are giving up your investment into muta's which if you make even just 8 muta thats 800 gas wasted.
So I feel if you go muta, and he goes muta you have to continue as tech changing just gives up map control and lets him take more bases then you.
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The reason that most zergs transition to ultras is that all the units built that can kill mutas ( hydras, infestors and corruprtors)
are hard countered by ultras.
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A little trick to do when your opponent is taking his third with hydra/roach, is to make 15 or so speedbanelings, fly next his third so he see your mutas and hopefully he'll camp his third with only hydra. Then just a move with banelings and sweep the expansion with muta :D
Against infestors I usually split my ling/bling by group of 6bling/6lings and I try to engage directly his hydra or infestors while avoiding his roach. At worst you make him waste fungals, at best you kill groups of hydra/infestors ;D
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Just read all of your guides today. It's an AMAZING help. Thanks, man.
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Personally I really like the small 6-8 muta flock to kill overlords, then going into roach/infestor. It's so nice to have that full level of map control to easily get expansions, and lots of overlord kills + keeping your opponent in his base. I've had some success with banelings in direct fights against roach/hydra and it works really well when it happens but it's often hard with roaches in the front. I want to try out clumps of like 3 (i think that kills hydras) burrowed banelings but I haven't really had the chance to yet.
What's the best way to do ling/muta vs roach/infestor? Just get banelings and try to hit hydras with banelings then clean up roaches with mutas? I know mutas do ok vs hydras too so if a few explosions go off I'm usually good. Could you write some more about mutas without going roaches too (even though I personally like that more and do that most often).
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On November 06 2011 10:18 Scisyhp wrote:
Personally I really like the small 6-8 muta flock to kill overlords, then going into roach/infestor. It's so nice to have that full level of map control to easily get expansions, and lots of overlord kills + keeping your opponent in his base. I've had some success with banelings in direct fights against roach/hydra and it works really well when it happens but it's often hard with roaches in the front. I want to try out clumps of like 3 (i think that kills hydras) burrowed banelings but I haven't really had the chance to yet.
What's the best way to do ling/muta vs roach/infestor? Just get banelings and try to hit hydras with banelings then clean up roaches with mutas? I know mutas do ok vs hydras too so if a few explosions go off I'm usually good. Could you write some more about mutas without going roaches too (even though I personally like that more and do that most often).
You should have seperate control groups of ling bane so that you can flank. One from the front, back and sides if possible that way he can't just fungel on one side, he'd have to fungel in 4 different directions to get all of them (and now banes take 2 fungels to kill). So if you do a good flank you should be able to kill the hydra's and have the muta's clean the rest while lings also help of course.
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Nice guide blade, you consistently have some of the better posts in the strat section and I enjoy your stream enough to have it 'favorited' with the new TL stream feature, keep it up bro!
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I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that.
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On November 06 2011 09:38 blade55555 wrote:
You should continue getting muta attack upgrades if he keeps going muta.
This is not quite true and one of the reasons I win muta vs muta battles. Armor upgrade >> attack upgrade. Let's say you have 8 mutas with +1 armor and your opponent has 10 mutas with +1 attack, guess what, you'll win. Muta vs muta and muta vs thor (you stop at 1 armor vs thor though) is the only 2 situations where you want to get the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade.
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I agree that getting armor upgrade vs muta is way better than getting atk upgrade. This is why Huk gets +3 armor while only having the initial +1 atk for his stalkers as soon as he sees mutas, because this will make the bounces do very little damage.
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I really like the whole, "make 7 mutas and then do something else" strategy. Basically because you get your lair first, you see what they're doing totally, Get a bunch of mutas for free overlord kills, get to expand or even double expand, and then respond to scouting. I think +1 carapace on ground is important, It basically counters the standard anti-ling strats (banelings, +1 roach) and leaves you open to move to roaches yourself.
I'm a little lost as to what to do when you encounter someone else doing the same thing... Muta/ling vs Muta/ling is a multitasking nightmare.
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On November 06 2011 09:36 galtdunn wrote:
Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc?
stop making mutas after your inital batch pops up against non-muta play, but keep making mutas vs mutas. Also keep up with upgrades and make sure you stay even or can get ahead by taking a hidden base.
On November 06 2011 23:02 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 09:38 blade55555 wrote:
You should continue getting muta attack upgrades if he keeps going muta. This is not quite true and one of the reasons I win muta vs muta battles. Armor upgrade >> attack upgrade. Let's say you have 8 mutas with +1 armor and your opponent has 10 mutas with +1 attack, guess what, you'll win. Muta vs muta and muta vs thor (you stop at 1 armor vs thor though) is the only 2 situations where you want to get the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade.
+1 attack beats +1 armor, but +2 attack loses to +2 armor in fights if you target fire.
On November 07 2011 02:21 darkscream wrote:
I really like the whole, "make 7 mutas and then do something else" strategy. Basically because you get your lair first, you see what they're doing totally, Get a bunch of mutas for free overlord kills, get to expand or even double expand, and then respond to scouting. I think +1 carapace on ground is important, It basically counters the standard anti-ling strats (banelings, +1 roach) and leaves you open to move to roaches yourself.
I'm a little lost as to what to do when you encounter someone else doing the same thing... Muta/ling vs Muta/ling is a multitasking nightmare.
have better upgrades when you fight, make sure you make as many mtuas as you can because if you lose one battle, you most likely aren't going to win unless you have upgrade advantage or another base secured. Also need to scout and make sure he doesn't sneak any bases. If he gets one base up on you thats 220more gas a minute income and he will have more mutas. Also use extra minerals to take bases and use the lings to snipe his hatcheries down because gas income is most important here. It also helps to make a couple banelings in fights (2-3) not more then 4 because that will effect your muta numbers too much early on like on 2 base vs 2 base or when your thirds are both just starting up
On November 06 2011 22:34 Alpina wrote:
I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that.
Muta vs muta mid games you can't tech to ultralisks. Thats way too much gas to invest in without saccing your muta count and if you try to tech to ultralisks (ultra upgrade, melee/carapace upgrades, then the utlralisk itself) is way too much gas so you won't have enough muta numbers to fend off the other person's mutas. The only time you should really start teching is after your 4th base is up or when there is a stale mate where you can't kill him, but he can't kill you either because of the spores adding extra defense, but even then it would be really risky.
Hydralisks and infestors are really slow. If you scout a non-muta mid game, you just make an initial batch of mutas and then switch immediatly into roaches and infestors. I wouldn't even get upgrades for mutas because you don't want to be investing in them. The mutas give you map control while you can safely take a third and get your macro going.
Remember it takes 5 fungals now to kill mutalisks with infestors. If you split up your mutas into 2 groups, thats 5 fungals each (thats a lot off of 2 bases because you only have 4 gas (448). If you understand the matchup enough, you can also make the zerg waste infestor fungals on mutalisks or lone batches of lings or something so that when you fight with muta/ling against his infestor/hydra or roach army he will not have enough fungals to stop all your lings
Counter attacking is also a viable option. If he tries to build his third when he pushes, 10 lings is more then enough to force a cancel on that hatchery or if he stays on 2 bases, just put down crawlers and hold the attack and you will win because he won't be able to replenish that army on 2 bases (assuming you took a third)
Taking a third base is also tricky here. The first thing you need to know is if they are going to get mutas, or stick with infestors or if they are doing some sort of timing push.
Timing push = crawlers & no third
tech to muta or infestors = take third before your mutas are done so you can spore up by the time the mutas are out.
To keep the third base secure, you have to be worried about either roach/infestor/hydra timing pushes, ling runbys, or muta attacks. 3 spores is more then enough to bide time for your muta flock to get over there and drive the other mutas off. Against ling counter attacks, I tend to keep a couple banelings next to my third so i can move my speedlings quickly over there but still have banelings there so that the other zerg can't just amove and kill the hatchery. Against roach/infestor pushes you should be able to have roaches/infestors and a functional thrid base by the time he pushes, otherwise you are not droning early enough.
However, muta builds are not viable in zvz anymore because of the fact that if the zerg sees 2 gas taken at your nat at an early time, they can either assume fast mutas or fast infestors and that there will be no chance of attacking. With that in mind, they can just take a third and by the time the tech DOES come out to be effective, you won't be able to cancel that third because it will be up and have defenses ready and in that way, you will get outmacroed and won't be able to take a third base or it will be really hard to secure it and even a fourth because its 6 gas vs 4 gas.
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On November 07 2011 02:35 Br3ezy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 23:02 decaf wrote:On November 06 2011 09:38 blade55555 wrote:
You should continue getting muta attack upgrades if he keeps going muta. This is not quite true and one of the reasons I win muta vs muta battles. Armor upgrade >> attack upgrade. Let's say you have 8 mutas with +1 armor and your opponent has 10 mutas with +1 attack, guess what, you'll win. Muta vs muta and muta vs thor (you stop at 1 armor vs thor though) is the only 2 situations where you want to get the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade. +1 attack beats +1 armor, but +2 attack loses to +2 armor in fights if you target fire.
Wrong. Do some research before you make claims.
+ Show Spoiler +
Those were 12 mutas and 4 of the +1 armored mutas survived. Also did it with 15 mutas and 6 of the +1 armored mutas survived.
edit: No one target fires in muta vs muta.
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i only see half your pictures. tl doesnt resize the pictures so they come out weird. how did you micro them? Also i assume you had a friend to help you out in some way to control one group of mutas?
edit: LOL? no one target fires in muta vs muta? I guess no one target fires banelings with siege tanks either right? or target fires with marines vs mutas or marines vs banelings or hellions vs drones? Did you really just try to win an argument by saying no one target fires in muta vs muta?
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I saw that TL screwed up the pics so I'm only providing the links now.
Are you really comparing siege tank vs banelings with muta vs muta now?
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On November 06 2011 07:48 blade55555 wrote:Muta vs Muta You should continue getting muta attack upgrades if he keeps going muta. This is what I do,
My apologizes if this come across as me being a know it all. But if you want to specifically win a Muta vs Muta battle, you want the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade. I also just saw that people have been talking about this.
A friend and I tested this out a while ago. +1 armor is better that +1 attack for your mutalisk against other mutalisks, the reason for this is because of the bounce of the attack. on the +1 side of the attack. it adds 1 damage for the initial hit, .5 damage on the 1st bounce, and .25 on the 2nd bounce. adding 1.75 damage each hit. However. if you get +1 armor, it subtracts 1 damage from each bounce. subtracting a total of 3 damage with each attack.
I know this may not seem like it is a big deal but if you have equal amounts of mutalisks fighting each other. the one with +1 armor will always win with several mutalisks left over.
Other things that Catechin and I tested was the actual engagements. I vaguely remember a blizzard patch that may of fixed this. But you dont want to just fly your mutas spread out into the other mutalisks. Every once in a while you will have a stupid muta who will fly into the middle of the other flock and insta die. The best way to fight a muta vs muta battle is to stack your mutalisks and let them come at you because this makes sure all of your mutalisks will shoot at once, and you don't have a random mutalisk flying into their flock and insta dieing.
And strangely enough you do not want to focus fire in high numbers of mutalisk vs mutalisk battles. Just let them attack and the bounce will usually take care of itself.
And if you don't believe me. then please test out this stuff for yourself
P.S. like i said. there may of been a patch to fix the stupid muta. but i dont remember where or when it was.
EDIT: You only want the armor if HE is going mutalisk as well. Otherwise it should be obvious that attack would be better. But armor is what you want when you really want to control the air.
EDIT2: also blade. really nice guides these are actually the play styles i love to use. so thank you for all of your guides. i love them all ^_^
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On November 07 2011 03:00 decaf wrote:
I saw that TL screwed up the pics so I'm only providing the links now.
Are you really comparing siege tank vs banelings with muta vs muta now?
i dont know, are you really saying target firing mutas in muta vs muta battles is not important?
in all mirror matchups, its obviosly the most important part of micro in order to keep the most units alive. You aren't going to get an advantage with different units if you have the same unit so you need to make sure you have more of that unit. Its just like saying you don't micro zealots vs zealot battles, marine vs marine battles, stalker vs stalker battles, and the list goes on. In any X vs X unit battles, target firing is half of if you win or lose it
let me be more specific about muta vs muta focus firing. To get an advantage in big battles, or even smaller battles, of like lets just say 15 mutas vs 15 mutas. It takes X amount of muta shots to kill another mutalisk. Your obviously not going to use all your mutalisks to kill another mutalisk. I don't know how many shots specifically it takes to kill a mutalisk, but an example is like when you have to micro in a roach/ling all in vs marines. When you target fire with roaches, you arent going to make 5 of them attack 1 marine (without combat shield) because you waste one roach shot. You only need to use 4 to kill them. it maximizes your dps in battles so lets say it takes 10 shots to kill another mutalisk.
if you have 15 mutalisks vs 15 mutalisks and it takes 10 shots to kill 1 mutalisk, then only use 10 mutalisks to target fire on 1 muta while the other 5 can attack another one to maximize your dps
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Target fire is only important if you have _very_ few mutas, like a handful and only if one is weaked and you're sure how many muta shots it will need to take a damaged muta down. Once you have too many mutalisks to manually micro and you will overkill target fire becomes ridiculously bad. And even if you target fire I still do not believe that attack upgraded mutas come out on top in that situation. Go ahead and provide replays/videos/picutres/whatever to prove me wrong. I've always gone for the armor upgrade and it works out great against attack upgraded mutas (as I've proven with my pictures).
edit, response to your edit:
yes, that's what I'm talking about. you will overkill in most situations and that's why it's bad for that matter. Now it's still not proven that attack wins over armor if both perfectly micro and target fire like that (besides the fact that this is almost impossible in an ingame scenario). For everyone with not perfect micro (everyone who plays this game) the armor upgrade will be better.
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On November 07 2011 03:03 Br3ezy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 03:00 decaf wrote:
I saw that TL screwed up the pics so I'm only providing the links now.
Are you really comparing siege tank vs banelings with muta vs muta now? i dont know, are you really saying target firing mutas in muta vs muta battles is not important? in all mirror matchups, its obviosly the most important part of micro in order to keep the most units alive. You aren't going to get an advantage with different units if you have the same unit so you need to make sure you have more of that unit. Its just like saying you don't micro zealots vs zealot battles, marine vs marine battles, stalker vs stalker battles, and the list goes on. In any X vs X unit battles, target firing is half of if you win or lose it let me be more specific about muta vs muta focus firing. To get an advantage in big battles, or even smaller battles, of like lets just say 15 mutas vs 15 mutas. It takes X amount of muta shots to kill another mutalisk. Your obviously not going to use all your mutalisks to kill another mutalisk. I don't know how many shots specifically it takes to kill a mutalisk, but an example is like when you have to micro in a roach/ling all in vs marines. When you target fire with roaches, you arent going to make 5 of them attack 1 marine (without combat shield) because you waste one roach shot. You only need to use 4 to kill them. it maximizes your dps in battles so lets say it takes 10 shots to kill another mutalisk. if you have 15 mutalisks vs 15 mutalisks and it takes 10 shots to kill 1 mutalisk, then only use 10 mutalisks to target fire on 1 muta while the other 5 can attack another one to maximize your dps
On +1 armor vs. +1 attack i think it's quite obvious why +1 armor is better. If you get +1 attack and i +1 armor then our bonus damage is nulified, right? Now +1 attack give +0.33 for second bounce, and +0.11 to third bounce, while +1 armor completelly nulifis those two. So it's obvious that +1 armor is much better.
On micro side, i am not sure if it's even worth microing mutas when you got like 20 vs. 20 of them, they do damage very fast and you possible even screw something up, but maybe it's worth if you are very good at it dunno.
And on your advice to go roach hydra after mutas i am not sure if i can keep up with oponent go goes roach hydra infestor, especially because my upgrades gonna be slower, but i will try to go into roach hydra.
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On November 07 2011 03:10 decaf wrote:
Target fire is only important if you have _very_ few mutas, like a handful and only if one is weaked and you're sure how many muta shots it will need to take a damaged muta down. Once you have too many mutalisks to manually micro and you will overkill target fire becomes ridiculously bad. And even if you target fire I still do not believe that attack upgraded mutas come out on top in that situation. Go ahead and provide replays/videos/picutres/whatever to prove me wrong. I've always gone for the armor upgrade and it works out great against attack upgraded mutas (as I've proven with my pictures).
edit, response to your edit:
yes, that's what I'm talking about. you will overkill in most situations and that's why it's bad for that matter. Now it's still not proven that attack wins over armor if both perfectly micro and target fire like that (besides the fact that this is almost impossible in an ingame scenario). For everyone with not perfect micro (everyone who plays this game) the armor upgrade will be better.
to be honest, this is the last thing that happens in zvz. You are going to win or lose for a million reasons before this because this is like a "perfect scenario" situation, but nothing is ever perfect
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All right armor's better lol guess i'll edit that but so far that was the only complaint I read ^^.
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On November 07 2011 04:20 blade55555 wrote:
All right armor's better lol guess i'll edit that but so far that was the only complaint I read ^^.
Can you say something on this? ^^
On November 06 2011 22:34 Alpina wrote:
I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that.
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On November 07 2011 04:41 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:20 blade55555 wrote:
All right armor's better lol guess i'll edit that but so far that was the only complaint I read ^^. Can you say something on this? ^^ Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 22:34 Alpina wrote:
I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that.
Oh missed that. If he's only on 2 bases honestly I would just make a ton of muta/ling/bane, and again go for the full on flank. You should kill him with this (spread your muta's to so that fungels can't get your muta's and banelings). If he's doing this all off of 2 bases he can't have that many hydra's AND infestors so you should clean it up no problem, and you should have spine support as well
I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that.
I also disagree with this statement. If you do what I say with the flanking and full surround with banelings you will win the fight on or off creep. If you engage off creep thats better for you because of how bad hydra's are off creep.
Or you can do a muta/ling/roach build and that should beat it pretty handily to with spine support.
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One thing i want to add is going mutas is simply just an alternative (besides faster third) to maintain a macro lead. It's not a pre-game decision. You should never try to go mutas if you are behind, or you will die straight up if the opponent knows how to exploit it
One thing that's quite unexplored in spire vs spire is corruptors. I met 1 opponent who just went straight up corruptors when he scouted mine, took complete air control, then started adding mutas. After that it's just downhill all the way, switching back to hydras or infestors just seem awkward. Going infestors will let you lose complete map control until you get a critical mass, while he adds more bases. And if you go hydra tech, his constant ling+bling pressure keeps your hydra count down while he masses up more mutas >.>
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If I smell/scout muta play I turtle up a 3rd with spores and infestors and then just lean on my bank
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Really cool guide, I think i'll try and go this muta style in my future zvz's, at least for a while.
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On November 07 2011 06:25 RHUmbra wrote:
Really cool guide, I think i'll try and go this muta style in my future zvz's, at least for a while.
Just mix it in, doesn't have to be your standard build .
On November 07 2011 05:53 Quantum617 wrote:
If I smell/scout muta play I turtle up a 3rd with spores and infestors and then just lean on my bank
Turtle to much and enjoy ultra or broodlord ruining your day ^_^.
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I wasn't around much from the broodwar era, but from the little I've watched I remember mutalisks being largely used intentionally clumped up into a tiny ball so they'd all fire at once while only taking shots from a few targets. Wouldn't this micro be absolutely excellent ZvZ in a muta vs muta scenario, where you clump your mutas up and snipe mutas off his cloud one-by-one?
Obviously, it wouldn't be easy, but I'm wondering if anyone has given it a try yet
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I still think muta loses to mass roach, mass ling and thats not to mention hydra roach timing pushes like I do on ladder. Its kinda funny you see muta rushes a lot after the initial push to end the game early its either that or roach infestor and really late game its broodlords but I dont think many of my ZvZ games have gone that long for a while. My build only seems to be losing on ladder to really well positioned mass roach infestor like if you fight roach hydra in a choke you are going to die with that army composition. I just try to force attacks in chokes thats working well for me.
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Great guide, I was getting pretty tired of seeing people blow their Muta play on ladder. Hopefully this guide will fix some of it!
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I hate the zvz muta style with every fiber of my being. It's largely responsible for my 25% zvz winrate in the last month. I'm not ready to all-out change strategies since I have a lot of ideas on how to play against it that are still untested, but eventually I'll mix it in and use this guide as a starting point
On November 07 2011 23:07 Staboteur wrote:I wasn't around much from the broodwar era, but from the little I've watched I remember mutalisks being largely used intentionally clumped up into a tiny ball so they'd all fire at once while only taking shots from a few targets. Wouldn't this micro be absolutely excellent ZvZ in a muta vs muta scenario, where you clump your mutas up and snipe mutas off his cloud one-by-one? Obviously, it wouldn't be easy, but I'm wondering if anyone has given it a try yet
I remember when beta first hit one of the first things zergs tried was stacking mutas. They still stack, as I'm sure we've all found out against thors, but the micro isn't as fast or efficient as it was in BW. The biggest advantages from stacking was attacking random targets in unison (hold position micro),attacking immediately after the cool-down period, and the stacking prevented the AI from auto-targeting one specific muta from the flock. You can still stack and take advantage of the cool-down to an extent, but it's more important to nail your macro during the harass.
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On November 07 2011 23:13 FlukyS wrote:
I still think muta loses to mass roach, mass ling and thats not to mention hydra roach timing pushes like I do on ladder. Its kinda funny you see muta rushes a lot after the initial push to end the game early its either that or roach infestor and really late game its broodlords but I dont think many of my ZvZ games have gone that long for a while. My build only seems to be losing on ladder to really well positioned mass roach infestor like if you fight roach hydra in a choke you are going to die with that army composition. I just try to force attacks in chokes thats working well for me.
Watch the 2 replays in the 3 replays I have. It shows me crushing a roach/ling/baneling all in and a roach/hydra bust. These are vs mid to high master korean zergs as well. Its possible to hold it trust me
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United States8476 Posts
Have you seen the recent gsl games of mass muta vs mass muta? Seems like the standard transition is infestors plus a few spores to not get overwhelmed while you transition.
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On November 11 2011 12:55 NrGmonk wrote:
Have you seen the recent gsl games of mass muta vs mass muta? Seems like the standard transition is infestors plus a few spores to not get overwhelmed while you transition.
I actually haven't you should tell me which games as I have been wanting to see those forever as when I watch them from idra or something both players always stay muta so I imagine its bad to transition into infestors due to losing complete map control.
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United States8476 Posts
Check out the yugioh vs minseok series from code A. I believe they both went mutas all 3 games.
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Ah k thanks will do so far I just feel staying muta's is stronger but going to watch those and potentially edit on how I see thanks!
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It really seems like if both players go mass mutas, the one who lands a good fungal growth wins. Pure upgrades doesn't seem as valuable as making 3 infestors with burrow and hiding them some place you are likely to do a Muta v Muta battle, and springing the trap.
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lol when two zergs go mutas it seems like such a cluster fuck. its hard to get a third with mutas flying around the map, same for the opponent. plus speedlings denying. it feels really fast paced and like original broodwar ZvZ. i like it.
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How do you defend expansions best with this style? Spines do not seem to be enough and when many players go for Hydra/Roach attacks I can only defend my main and natural (sometimes also a 3rd) with Infestor/Roach/Spines, but I can't safely defend any other bases. I typically just counter attack, often with either Mutas or Infestor drops, but I get starved out a lot when they just keep taking more bases and their standing army is just better (faster upgrades, many hydras, etc).
It is very frustrating trying to properly transition into other styles and secure more than 3 bases, particularly because opening mutas off 2 base sets your upgrades behind.
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On November 11 2011 13:11 NrGmonk wrote:
Check out the yugioh vs minseok series from code A. I believe they both went mutas all 3 games.
yeah, yugioh went for around 9ish (?) mutas, built some spores, and then immediately went to infestor. when his infestation pit popped he had enough for i think 8 infestors, and he used his mutas to bait the larger muta force into his infestors and he chain fungalled the entire ball to death. after that he just made tons of lings and infestors and expanded and went hive.
now i know catching every muta with fungals is like a perfect storm and you can't bank on always being able to do that, but I'm interested to hear the opinions of some of the better players ITT.
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On November 11 2011 16:04 oOOoOphidian wrote:
How do you defend expansions best with this style? Spines do not seem to be enough and when many players go for Hydra/Roach attacks I can only defend my main and natural (sometimes also a 3rd) with Infestor/Roach/Spines, but I can't safely defend any other bases. I typically just counter attack, often with either Mutas or Infestor drops, but I get starved out a lot when they just keep taking more bases and their standing army is just better (faster upgrades, many hydras, etc).
It is very frustrating trying to properly transition into other styles and secure more than 3 bases, particularly because opening mutas off 2 base sets your upgrades behind.
You should be expanding in bad locations for him to attack. Like if he attacks it he has to commit because you have muta's to kill stray units so he would have to bring most if not all his army to kill it. If he does this instead of going for the kill counter attack with all your units and go for the base trade. At worst you do a lot of economic damage and you then have to retreat (you should have a good amount of spines being made when you see him commit to this so if he goes for the base trade you should win).
Don't just try to defend if he goes for your third you need to go counter his main, do a lot of damage and if he retreats you pretty much win because you should be able to do a ton of damage to his economy. Then you can expand again and you have spines + ling/bane + muta to defend if he goes for the all in kill.
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On November 11 2011 16:39 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 16:04 oOOoOphidian wrote:
How do you defend expansions best with this style? Spines do not seem to be enough and when many players go for Hydra/Roach attacks I can only defend my main and natural (sometimes also a 3rd) with Infestor/Roach/Spines, but I can't safely defend any other bases. I typically just counter attack, often with either Mutas or Infestor drops, but I get starved out a lot when they just keep taking more bases and their standing army is just better (faster upgrades, many hydras, etc).
It is very frustrating trying to properly transition into other styles and secure more than 3 bases, particularly because opening mutas off 2 base sets your upgrades behind. You should be expanding in bad locations for him to attack. Like if he attacks it he has to commit because you have muta's to kill stray units so he would have to bring most if not all his army to kill it. If he does this instead of going for the kill counter attack with all your units and go for the base trade. At worst you do a lot of economic damage and you then have to retreat (you should have a good amount of spines being made when you see him commit to this so if he goes for the base trade you should win). Don't just try to defend if he goes for your third you need to go counter his main, do a lot of damage and if he retreats you pretty much win because you should be able to do a ton of damage to his economy. Then you can expand again and you have spines + ling/bane + muta to defend if he goes for the all in kill.
Yes, I know that if they heavily commit to an attack you can counter attack, as I said, but what I have trouble with is ling squads (say, 20-30~ lings) that are not a commitment at all, but can kill a far away base very easily. Mutas don't move fast enough to actually help, spines aren't enough, and even with infestors at each base the lings overwhelm that. Once a player gets Hydras and Infestors out they can pretty easily expand, so it really isn't much of an investment for them to throw away kill squads like that to decimate hidden bases. Maybe my problem is that I avoid making lings much at all, which could help defend some of these attacks quite well.
I'm really not understanding how anyone is getting away with mass muta styles as well, as I find players can just do roach/hydra timings and kill you. I prefer 7-15 mutas just initially for map control and harass, then completely switching into roach/infestor, but I am wondering if maybe that's just an irrational fear.
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It should be noted that muta play in ZvZ will die every time to a three-base timing push with roaches and hydras, if the mutas were well defended.
And it's very easy to defend mutas. Most of the time you can get a faster third than the guy going muta, because, well, he's going muta. I feel like any strategy where you need to build 10,000 spine crawlers in order for it to be viable is just simply a mistake.
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On November 11 2011 17:16 GettinMyFill wrote:
It should be noted that muta play in ZvZ will die every time to a three-base timing push with roaches and hydras, if the mutas were well defended.
And it's very easy to defend mutas. Most of the time you can get a faster third than the guy going muta, because, well, he's going muta. I feel like any strategy where you need to build 10,000 spine crawlers in order for it to be viable is just simply a mistake.
Actually this is false knowledge. If this were true nobody would go muta's not nestea, not idra, like nobody unless they were going for an all in.
With flanking maneuvers (or tech switching) you can hold it just fine with muta/ling/bane/roach or transitioning into roach/infestor and you will have excess minerals so spines aren't bad either.
This is just false though to say that it will die every time to a three base timing.
On November 11 2011 17:07 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 16:39 blade55555 wrote:On November 11 2011 16:04 oOOoOphidian wrote:
How do you defend expansions best with this style? Spines do not seem to be enough and when many players go for Hydra/Roach attacks I can only defend my main and natural (sometimes also a 3rd) with Infestor/Roach/Spines, but I can't safely defend any other bases. I typically just counter attack, often with either Mutas or Infestor drops, but I get starved out a lot when they just keep taking more bases and their standing army is just better (faster upgrades, many hydras, etc).
It is very frustrating trying to properly transition into other styles and secure more than 3 bases, particularly because opening mutas off 2 base sets your upgrades behind. You should be expanding in bad locations for him to attack. Like if he attacks it he has to commit because you have muta's to kill stray units so he would have to bring most if not all his army to kill it. If he does this instead of going for the kill counter attack with all your units and go for the base trade. At worst you do a lot of economic damage and you then have to retreat (you should have a good amount of spines being made when you see him commit to this so if he goes for the base trade you should win). Don't just try to defend if he goes for your third you need to go counter his main, do a lot of damage and if he retreats you pretty much win because you should be able to do a ton of damage to his economy. Then you can expand again and you have spines + ling/bane + muta to defend if he goes for the all in kill. Yes, I know that if they heavily commit to an attack you can counter attack, as I said, but what I have trouble with is ling squads (say, 20-30~ lings) that are not a commitment at all, but can kill a far away base very easily. Mutas don't move fast enough to actually help, spines aren't enough, and even with infestors at each base the lings overwhelm that. Once a player gets Hydras and Infestors out they can pretty easily expand, so it really isn't much of an investment for them to throw away kill squads like that to decimate hidden bases. Maybe my problem is that I avoid making lings much at all, which could help defend some of these attacks quite well. I'm really not understanding how anyone is getting away with mass muta styles as well, as I find players can just do roach/hydra timings and kill you. I prefer 7-15 mutas just initially for map control and harass, then completely switching into roach/infestor, but I am wondering if maybe that's just an irrational fear.
You should have lings yourself, and unless he went muta himself you should have overlords to stop them. A thing I do is put a bit of my lings at my third and morph a few into banelings. This works quiet well if you can't stop the lings in time
Surviving roach/hydra timings isn't that hard, and if they wait for infestors that is more then enough time for you to transition if that is what you choose to do. If you choose to go ling/bane/muta you need to be flanking from at minimum 2 different sides. This way 2 fungels isn't instant gg. Don't forget banelings now take 2 fungles and if they are coming from 4 different sides that requires 8 fungels and if he's doing a 2 base timing he won't have a lot of hydra's AND infestors so this is pretty easy to deal with.
A 3 base timing you can do the same thing just make sure to split your muta's to and focus the hydra's while having the banelings go for the hydra's as well. It takes good control to do this style, roach/hydra/infestor is easier to control as it allows for more room for error where as muta play does not.
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A question for you OP, which attack upgrade should be prioritized: Attack or Carapace?
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On November 11 2011 17:48 Pillage wrote:
A question for you OP, which attack upgrade should be prioritized: Attack or Carapace?
I have been told by many that carapace is better through their research, I am taking their word for it so would go for carapace
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On November 11 2011 17:39 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 17:16 GettinMyFill wrote:
It should be noted that muta play in ZvZ will die every time to a three-base timing push with roaches and hydras, if the mutas were well defended.
And it's very easy to defend mutas. Most of the time you can get a faster third than the guy going muta, because, well, he's going muta. I feel like any strategy where you need to build 10,000 spine crawlers in order for it to be viable is just simply a mistake. Actually this is false knowledge. If this were true nobody would go muta's not nestea, not idra, like nobody unless they were going for an all in. With flanking maneuvers (or tech switching) you can hold it just fine with muta/ling/bane/roach or transitioning into roach/infestor and you will have excess minerals so spines aren't bad either. This is just false though to say that it will die every time to a three base timing.
If you defend the mutas properly without getting yourself into an economic disadvantage, maxing out at around 15-16 minutes on 2/2 roach/hydra should do just fine if you split and protect your hydras from banelings. Mass muta is difficult without infestors, but doable. Considering the infestor damage nerf, it makes the infestor transition from muta more of a gas sink than hydras and upgrades are.
You can take a fourth and fifth at this time most of the time, while you tech to Hive. If you go muta, you need to be able to do a LOT of economic damage, disabling their third while you get your own. That being said, the best answer to muta is get a faster third, which makes it difficult.
If mutas were invincible then you would see 100% of the games being muta vs muta. This is a build that can die, just like every other ZvZ build, because that is just the nature of the matchup.
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On November 11 2011 17:52 GettinMyFill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 17:39 blade55555 wrote:On November 11 2011 17:16 GettinMyFill wrote:
It should be noted that muta play in ZvZ will die every time to a three-base timing push with roaches and hydras, if the mutas were well defended.
And it's very easy to defend mutas. Most of the time you can get a faster third than the guy going muta, because, well, he's going muta. I feel like any strategy where you need to build 10,000 spine crawlers in order for it to be viable is just simply a mistake. Actually this is false knowledge. If this were true nobody would go muta's not nestea, not idra, like nobody unless they were going for an all in. With flanking maneuvers (or tech switching) you can hold it just fine with muta/ling/bane/roach or transitioning into roach/infestor and you will have excess minerals so spines aren't bad either. This is just false though to say that it will die every time to a three base timing. If you defend the mutas properly without getting yourself into an economic disadvantage, maxing out at around 15-16 minutes on 2/2 roach/hydra should do just fine if you split and protect your hydras from banelings. Mass muta is difficult without infestors, but doable. Considering the infestor damage nerf, it makes the infestor transition from muta more of a gas sink than hydras and upgrades are. You can take a fourth and fifth at this time most of the time, while you tech to Hive. If you go muta, you need to be able to do a LOT of economic damage, disabling their third while you get your own. That being said, the best answer to muta is get a faster third, which makes it difficult. If mutas were invincible then you would see 100% of the games being muta vs muta. This is a build that can die, just like every other ZvZ build, because that is just the nature of the matchup.
Its not invincible but there really isn't any 100% win vs muta play was my point if you aren't already super far behind. If it were again nobody would do it because EVERY zerg would do a 3 base timing and ALWAYS win. But they don't because if you do everything properly, control muta's, dont' lose them stupidly, you will defend the push just fine.
At lower levels yes this is true because they don't know how to transition properly or being super greedy or not macroing correctly or many other huge mistakes.
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On November 11 2011 17:50 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 17:48 Pillage wrote:
A question for you OP, which attack upgrade should be prioritized: Attack or Carapace? I have been told by many that carapace is better through their research, I am taking their word for it so would go for carapace
This seems logical as it helps to counter the ridiculous effect the glaive bounce has when you get a big muta ball. This is also what I've heard in the past. Just wanted your insight.
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Hey blade nice guide yet again! In muta vs muta battle it's actually pretty neat to always engage with lings below your mutas. Not a lot of people seem to know or use this but if you do then your ling will take all the bounces from the mutas instead of other mutas. This gives you the chance to get back in a muta war if your opponent doesn't bring his lings too.
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A common thing you will run into on ladder is your opponent going for a roach/ling all in or some roach bust attempting to hit before your spire finishes. You should see this coming a mile away. With your lings you should be sacrificing them to see his unit count. If you see roaches on the field you should make a couple spines asap. If you send lings again and see a lot of roaches you need to make more spines. this is very crucial as you will die if he does a bust and you don't make enough spines with ling/bane support. I have a couple replays that will show you this.
so I'm guessing from this to defend from roach busts have... Lots of spines, and when he runs into the spines (?) flank with lings and attack into him with banes or something (on both sides) so he doesn't run past them spines? :o
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On November 11 2011 18:35 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +A common thing you will run into on ladder is your opponent going for a roach/ling all in or some roach bust attempting to hit before your spire finishes. You should see this coming a mile away. With your lings you should be sacrificing them to see his unit count. If you see roaches on the field you should make a couple spines asap. If you send lings again and see a lot of roaches you need to make more spines. this is very crucial as you will die if he does a bust and you don't make enough spines with ling/bane support. I have a couple replays that will show you this. so I'm guessing from this to defend from roach busts have... Lots of spines, and when he runs into the spines (?) flank with lings and attack into him with banes or something (on both sides) so he doesn't run past them spines? :o
Yes you should have at bare minimum 6 spines (again with seeing his drone count + seeing his roach count by scouting him with lings) you should be able to get it up in time. Having ling support you need as well. I have a replay of a player doing this to me and me holding it off
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I'm curious how you deal with infesters, I find once their are 4 or more out going near the other zergs base is just insanely dangerous. When I used to go mass muta more often I lost a few games where all my muta got fungaled and that was GG on the spot. Fungal is 9 range and muta's move rather quickly so .. do you just stop harassing once you see infesters ? I can't see how this build is reliable at all once infesters are out. ( I do like making 7-8 for early map control but more than that seems like suicide against roach infester )
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On November 11 2011 18:52 Synk wrote:
I'm curious how you deal with infesters, I find once their are 4 or more out going near the other zergs base is just insanely dangerous. When I used to go mass muta more often I lost a few games where all my muta got fungaled and that was GG on the spot. Fungal is 9 range and muta's move rather quickly so .. do you just stop harassing once you see infesters ? I can't see how this build is reliable at all once infesters are out. ( I do like making 7-8 for early map control but more than that seems like suicide against roach infester )
If he's going just roach infestor thats kind of silly. To do that you would need to get like at least 8 infestors which is hard to do off of 2 bases which the other zerg will be expanding.
You should never EVER flock all your muta's into his base at once. That is asking to be fungeled. You should always send a single muta ahead of the others so you can see that then retreat if you see an infestation pit or to check where his infestors are so as you don't go flying over them. You do not need to do economic damage with muta's, you should also spread them whenever possible before engaging or anything so 1 fungel doesn't fuck you up.
If you engage his army you need to spread your muta or again they wil get fungeled and killed. If they are spread it requires a lot more fungels then if they are bunched and you will have ling/baneling as well so he'll want to be fungling all of that not just muta (or his hydra's/infestors will die to the banelings).
Again when going muta play it is a lot easier to screw up and then lose the game due to it. If you over do aggression with mutalisks and get fungeled honestly you are pretty much done for. Mistakes going heavy muta play are a lot worse then doing only 7 muta while the rest are whatever you are transitioning into.
This takes a lot of practice to know the different scenario's and how to deal with it.
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Thanks for the reply, and yea it reminds me of ZvT mutalisk RvR on crack. Usually what I see is roach infester with like 10-12 hydras .. just enough to finish mutas off that get left behind after a fungal if I was spread out. I usually try to spread them out but it just felt like playing with fire to me, given how fast everything is happening at that stage of a ZvZ. But if you have the control to feel safe going mass muta more power to you =), I'm definitely more of a 7-8 muta guy for now haha ... had a few horrible losses to 1 bad fungal recently. Thanks for the guide.
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I do the same but I don't even make roaches.
I just expand and toss up 12321 spine crawlers if I see roaches and I tech quickly to mutalisks.
Muta vs Muta is comfortable for me comming from BW. just don't suicide them. Make lots of spores (you WILL have excess minerals) and pump zerglings off 5 hatcheries while teching to hive.
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There's a lot more to this, but good guide. TLDR Mutas > Everything else.
The point of the mutas are 2 fold:
1. To be safe from roach based all-ins (roach/ling, speedroach, 2/0 roach, 1/1 roach, roach/hydra)
2. To get a small macro lead through killing overlord (enough to make muta pay for themselves)
3. To be safe from mutas yourself (the best counter to mutas is mutas, as it is).
If the opponent goes mass hydra, you get speedbanes and more mutas and you just absolutely roll him. Hydras are expensive, by the time he has enough, you will have a huge flock of mutas that will just shred his roaches leftover. Also, mutas will beat hydras 1v1 when it's large enough, about 15+ mutas gets to the point where 15 mutas > 15 hydras (much like muta vs stalker).
You will be in and out of his base all game long, so if he's going infestors, you just expand and get your own infestation pit. Roach/Infestor handles mutas much better than roach/hydra/infestor, but you will be just behind enough due to your late expansion (infestors gain zero ability to get a third until you have about 6 of them, which takes a long time, enough for muta player to be taking their fourth when you can take your third) and killed overlords. Getting supply blocked en masse really hurts when you need free supply to get those infestors or hydras out. Once about 15+ mutas arrive, spores suddenly can't defend real well anymore, and they just park them between your main and nat and just kill all the overlords and units being rallied.
The only way I've really lost in lategame going mutas is when I was metagamed by some tricky guy. He made it look like he was going muta/ling (mass spines, fast 4 gas, no roach warren for a long time, and he hid his roaches very well under overlords) and I made like 20 mutas and out came 8 infestors very quickly. But it was by surprise, if I saw his infestation pit I wouldve just made my own and killed him.
Once the opponent gets infestation pit, you have to get yours. it's okay to get it later, since they are slow units and you should have a macro lead. If he's still on roach based army, you get a better roach/infestor army. Roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor, so forcing him to make hydras will be good for you. Otherwise, the game 90% of the time ends at muta vs muta, but from there you can go into muta/infestor or ultra/ling. depending on how back and forth the game is. Infestors can be a saving grace if you are completely behind in muta vs muta and if you get a lucky fungal off, then storming him with infestor/muta/ling can win the game. But the opponent should be getting ultras, or ultras should be the next step if the game is even, to counter any infestor play and deal with mass ling/bane.
I stopped making roach warren in zvz though. You really shouldn't be making one early game anyways.
There are some maps where mutas aren't good though, particularly smaller maps where the natural and third are really wide open and spines make it impossible to hold. From there you can play mass roach on 2 base into infestors.
I am curious about muta micro. I am not sure if focus fire is useful, or if you should be clumping up or not against enemy mutas. I suppose if they are running away it's good micro to learn to shoot and scoot.
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On November 12 2011 07:49 Belial88 wrote:I am curious about muta micro. I am not sure if focus fire is useful, or if you should be clumping up or not against enemy mutas. I suppose if they are running away it's good micro to learn to shoot and scoot.
I am pretty sure focus firing is really bad when the numbers get high. I actually had a lead in mutas recently and ended up losing horribly because I was trying too hard to focus fire. It's very effective for low muta counts, though.
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Can you post more replays of you going mass mutas please? (by mass mutas I mean you keep getting mutas after the first batch). I always think switching back to roach/infestor after the first batch is way better than keep making mutas, but I want you to prove me wrong
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Yeah i'll post some on monday got a busy weekend so can't do it this weekend sorry!
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If you lose a few mutas unnecessarily and your opponent gets ahead in muta count in a muta vs muta game, is the game just over? Is it worth making even a few corruptors to try and get air control back? Sometimes you can switch to infestor and stay in the game but muta vs muta is tricky if their gas timings are better than yours or you lose a few and get behind. Guess my question is are corruptors the right response to this situation? You say to transition into infestor or hydra but usually that puts you pretty far behind if they have a third while denying yours that it's not even worth it.
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On November 19 2011 16:36 Venomsflame wrote:
If you lose a few mutas unnecessarily and your opponent gets ahead in muta count in a muta vs muta game, is the game just over? Is it worth making even a few corruptors to try and get air control back? Sometimes you can switch to infestor and stay in the game but muta vs muta is tricky if their gas timings are better than yours or you lose a few and get behind. Guess my question is are corruptors the right response to this situation?
To be honest I am not sure. I know corruptors are very good vs muta's and I haven't actually ever tested that out. I will give that a shot actually in my next zvz muta vs muta battle and add in some corruptors because now I am curious myself . Will post a reply with results :D
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Since I'm a decently good zerg player as well I would answer the question as yes, the game is over. You can't really retreat with your mutas and if you have less mutas or worse upgrades the game is just over. If you spend minerals on static defenses to have a place where you're safe while you're waiting for those corruptors you will have far less zerglings, which is a huge deal also. In muta vs muta it's all about getting the most mutas out and getting an armor advantage asap. If you in some way manage to get corruptors you're really giving up map control because corruptors don't attack ground and are slow.
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On November 11 2011 18:33 Vandroy wrote:
Hey blade nice guide yet again! In muta vs muta battle it's actually pretty neat to always engage with lings below your mutas. Not a lot of people seem to know or use this but if you do then your ling will take all the bounces from the mutas instead of other mutas. This gives you the chance to get back in a muta war if your opponent doesn't bring his lings too.
To quote myself, if you do this it's better to upgrade attack for mutas since they won't be taking any glavie bounces anyway.
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I recently was playing a lot zvz with muta ling baneling and usually just fail if my opponent is not bad. He goes for strong roach hydra infestor attack and i die. I can't even really deny third cause he gets fast hydras. Can't harass main or natural cause every single zerg nowadays expects mutas and 3 spores are already at each base. Attacking with lings baneling against fungals again completelly depends on opponent. If he has 5+ infestors he can fungal from all sides and you are dead, flanks works when opponent is bad. I guess i will try to do something like 10 mutas into roach hydra, seems most reliable strategy, cause hive tech is usually too late if opponent is not sleeping.
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On November 22 2011 07:24 Alpina wrote:
I recently was playing a lot zvz with muta ling baneling and usually just fail if my opponent is not bad. He goes for strong roach hydra infestor attack and i die. I can't even really deny third cause he gets fast hydras. Can't harass main or natural cause every single zerg nowadays expects mutas and 3 spores are already at each base. Attacking with lings baneling against fungals again completelly depends on opponent. If he has 5+ infestors he can fungal from all sides and you are dead, flanks works when opponent is bad. I guess i will try to do something like 10 mutas into roach hydra, seems most reliable strategy, cause hive tech is usually too late if opponent is not sleeping.
I disagree. If he has 5+ infestors you should have a lot of units, good flanking positions and spine crawlers + hive tech going up. You should be starting hive at about 13-14 minutes and with spine + ling/bane flanks + 18 or so muta you will hold just fine. You are probably flanking wrong due to not having as much experience with it.
Many zergs don't flank and you won't be good at it for awhile. You can say it only works when the opponent is bad but that is incorrect and your way of just giving up or just not getting the hang of it. If you are already behind then no amount of flanking is going to help you, if you are macroing bad no flanks aren't going to help you most likely.
If you are behind you shouldn't go muta's anyway. Now you can do 10 muta's into roach/hydra that is fine its completely valid and isn't as hard as ling/bane/muta because with ling/bane/muta you fuck up once you instantly lose its alot less forgiving.
For muta you don't have to commit to them I do and I know others do to but again a lot less forgiving for mistakes which is why most people don't like it.
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 Nice guide. When I wrote this guide 8 months ago, everyone said it wasn't viable at all even though I beat top players with it. No balanced patches to anti-air/mutas were made since, except for the insignificant(vs light muta) fungal nerf.
Now everyone seems to be using the style that I described 8 months ago.
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On November 22 2011 08:05 Unfeared wrote: Nice guide. When I wrote this guide 8 months ago, everyone said it wasn't viable at all even though I beat top players with it. No balanced patches to anti-air/mutas were made since, except for the insignificant(vs light muta) fungal nerf. Now everyone seems to be using the style that I described 8 months ago.
The only thing that's really changed is knowledge, I'd say. People "knew" that a muta transition made you die outright to anything, and once we saw a few very good players not die during the transition, we got a chance to see how it's done, but more importantly, that it's possible at all! Now that people aren't afraid to just try it out and keep working on it if they get a few silly losses at first, it's being shown time and time again that mutas are a good, viable part of the zvz metagame
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On November 22 2011 08:05 Unfeared wrote: Nice guide. When I wrote this guide 8 months ago, everyone said it wasn't viable at all even though I beat top players with it. No balanced patches to anti-air/mutas were made since, except for the insignificant(vs light muta) fungal nerf. Now everyone seems to be using the style that I described 8 months ago.
8 months ago didn't fungal make them stay still for 8 seconds still?
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On November 29 2011 07:15 babo213 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:05 Unfeared wrote: Nice guide. When I wrote this guide 8 months ago, everyone said it wasn't viable at all even though I beat top players with it. No balanced patches to anti-air/mutas were made since, except for the insignificant(vs light muta) fungal nerf. Now everyone seems to be using the style that I described 8 months ago. 8 months ago didn't fungal make them stay still for 8 seconds still?
8 months ago the maps didn't favor macro games at all. 8 months ago every zvz was a roach/ling allin.
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On December 05 2011 06:26 Unfeared wrote:
Kinda stupid how valuable posters get insta upvotes for their guides and when an unknown poster posts a guide, everyone's sceptic about it.
How do you think they got the blue background, exactly? Its not like its their birthright lol.. They earned it by posting things that are correct
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On December 05 2011 07:18 Unfeared wrote:
So? Facts don't change meaning when they come out of someone else's mouth.
Why are you trying to bring down another thread into disrepute?
Blue posters are an indicator of quality of advice.
Would you rather get your lessons from a professor or a drunk down the road who doesn't even own a suit? Even if they both are supposedly 'good' the professor naturally has a minimum standard which they can provide.
As for the actual style - this guide is slightly outdated in that it doesn't acknowledge the baneling transition to deal with a hydra tech reaction to mutalisks. A lot of pros have dabbled with it because of the synergy in tech it has from the ling/baneling phase of the build.
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I'm getting a lot of 'retard' and 'noob'. Even when we both go muta.
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Depending on how much Hydras you forced, i feel you should add Roach/SpeedBanes as a transition. Hydras die like flies to them, and én masse roaches get some decent damage too, let your own roaches clean up after that and its ez.
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On December 05 2011 07:50 Erasme wrote:
I'm getting a lot of 'retard' and 'noob'. Even when we both go muta.
If your biggest metagame concern is BM then I think you've got it pretty good.
Anyway, I'm still a big fan of the infestor transition, but some maps definitely seem to favor going baneling instead and massing mutas.
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On December 06 2011 00:59 Unfeared wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 07:33 elliminist wrote:On December 05 2011 07:18 Unfeared wrote:
So? Facts don't change meaning when they come out of someone else's mouth. Why are you trying to bring down another thread into disrepute? Blue posters are an indicator of quality of advice. Would you rather get your lessons from a professor or a drunk down the road who doesn't even own a suit? Even if they both are supposedly 'good' the professor naturally has a minimum standard which they can provide. As for the actual style - this guide is slightly outdated in that it doesn't acknowledge the baneling transition to deal with a hydra tech reaction to mutalisks. A lot of pros have dabbled with it because of the synergy in tech it has from the ling/baneling phase of the build. No? Why are you using a professor or a drunk as a comparisson? My guide covers all of what's posted in blade's guide + more. But like I said, people accept it immediately because of his status. He should've used the search function before creating a slight variant of a guide.
Your guide is 1 base mutalisk lol, My build is 2 base mutalisk. You also even state in your guide that its risky to do it more then once in a tournament where as if you wanted this is not meant to be a surprise tactic or a one time use.
Rofl just saying your guide covers all what mine posted (which it doesn't). Both our builds are completely different and I have no idea how you can say what you said saying I shouldn't have wrote one because you wrote a 1 base muta build which imo is bad -_-.
For anyone curious http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227368 that is his guide which he doesn't even expand until 34 which is completely different then my muta build lol, this whole guide you wrote is way different then mine and every other zerg who goes muta now of days.
Should probably read my guide before saying its exactly like yours but with less content.
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If you release a well thought out 2 base mutalisk centric guide I'll read that one too. Until then you have your un updated guide from 7 months ago and blade has a very different one that doesn't sacrifice economy for "assured" damage.
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On November 06 2011 09:38 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 09:36 galtdunn wrote:
Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc? To be honest I don't really know what else to put there. in muta vs muta I just continue making muta and expanding so I can have the superior muta flock. Transitioning can be hard because you are giving up your investment into muta's which if you make even just 8 muta thats 800 gas wasted. So I feel if you go muta, and he goes muta you have to continue as tech changing just gives up map control and lets him take more bases then you.
since you will have overmins corrupters are a good way to take over the air control, that they are slower is really unimportant, since the opponent doesn't know where they are. And one corrupter is worth 2 mutas ~ in the air fight. (of course you can't get a giant corrupter ball but adding them in for corruption and tanking is better then muta only)
I don't go muta in generall though prefering mass hydras. So i am not to experienced in adding corrupters in a muta vs muta fight.
Generally against mass muta i go for a nydus and hydra queen baneling for a timing attack, they will see the nydus but its really hard to stop it from going up somewhere near them, depends how open the map is though. Or just to get another expansion up really far away from your bases (if they are scouting really well for the nydus).
The banes are 3 per group to get rid giant baneling balls attacking, since small baneling groups aren't a danger for the hydras. Queen throw down tons of tumors so you have the movement bonus. Basetrade won't work if your drones can be with your army asap, especially since spores are the strongest anti air unit ingame.
Well on small maps you don't even need the nydus creep spread is enough hehe.
Small amount of mutas just plays in my hands, as every 200 energy queen can save a 2 supply unit up to 4 times. That being said, it seems i am one of few people spreading creep in zvz, just because omg your opponent gets an advantage on creep, while many forget that only you get the vision for your tumors. And then there are also the overlords that can spread creep and retreat.
Anyway mutas are a nice way to apply pressure until infestors and hydras are out, so there is enough time to get ahead in bases and then transition. Also since it forces hydras, banelings are actually a nice follow up (Baneling mines are so awesome in zvz !).
So thanks for the guide, but maybe research on adding corrupters vs mutas if you find someone on ladder going mutas against you. Adds more effort to your army control for you, but imo its a nice thing to keep the air control. (and if you go broodlords anyway hehe.)
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On December 07 2011 21:32 Unfeared wrote:
Or read my posts, the metagame of ZvZ 8 months ago was different and it wasn't safe to FE like you did. Other than that, I explain the exact same things as you do. The only difference is the FE timing.
Um no they are not the same. And again its still way different. Not posting a zvz muta guide because you posted a 1 base muta guide is stupid. Its like maybe I should never have written a zerg vs terran guide because someone else focused on roach/ling/baneling but I do muta/ling/baneling but wait they mentioned muta/ling/baneling a little bit.
Sorry thats just stupid to say I shouldn't have wrote this guide because you wrote a 1 base guide that is "the same" when its actually very different lol...
You don't even explain the same things I do at all have you read my guide? I don't think so. I explain Muta vs Muta, some transitions you can do and to hold a possible all in. Just can't fathom how you can type that seriously and think it makes you are right.
On December 08 2011 00:11 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 09:38 blade55555 wrote:On November 06 2011 09:36 galtdunn wrote:
Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc? To be honest I don't really know what else to put there. in muta vs muta I just continue making muta and expanding so I can have the superior muta flock. Transitioning can be hard because you are giving up your investment into muta's which if you make even just 8 muta thats 800 gas wasted. So I feel if you go muta, and he goes muta you have to continue as tech changing just gives up map control and lets him take more bases then you. since you will have overmins corrupters are a good way to take over the air control, that they are slower is really unimportant, since the opponent doesn't know where they are. And one corrupter is worth 2 mutas ~ in the air fight. (of course you can't get a giant corrupter ball but adding them in for corruption and tanking is better then muta only) I don't go muta in generall though prefering mass hydras. So i am not to experienced in adding corrupters in a muta vs muta fight. Generally against mass muta i go for a nydus and hydra queen baneling for a timing attack, they will see the nydus but its really hard to stop it from going up somewhere near them, depends how open the map is though. Or just to get another expansion up really far away from your bases (if they are scouting really well for the nydus). The banes are 3 per group to get rid giant baneling balls attacking, since small baneling groups aren't a danger for the hydras. Queen throw down tons of tumors so you have the movement bonus. Basetrade won't work if your drones can be with your army asap, especially since spores are the strongest anti air unit ingame. Well on small maps you don't even need the nydus creep spread is enough hehe. Small amount of mutas just plays in my hands, as every 200 energy queen can save a 2 supply unit up to 4 times. That being said, it seems i am one of few people spreading creep in zvz, just because omg your opponent gets an advantage on creep, while many forget that only you get the vision for your tumors. And then there are also the overlords that can spread creep and retreat. Anyway mutas are a nice way to apply pressure until infestors and hydras are out, so there is enough time to get ahead in bases and then transition. Also since it forces hydras, banelings are actually a nice follow up (Baneling mines are so awesome in zvz !). So thanks for the guide, but maybe research on adding corrupters vs mutas if you find someone on ladder going mutas against you. Adds more effort to your army control for you, but imo its a nice thing to keep the air control. (and if you go broodlords anyway hehe.)
Yeah I plan on experimenting with that in a few weeks and will post the results here but it'll be a little while
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sPsblade huh.....im jelly you teamates WITH THE MOTHAFUCKIN DEBO! (:
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On December 08 2011 03:41 Gtoad wrote:
sPsblade huh.....im jelly you teamates WITH THE MOTHAFUCKIN DEBO! (:
I'm actually not on sPs, haven't been with them since February (I am 99.9% sure the team died)  . I have also never talked to debo either.
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You should probably begin getting hive and gspire as soon as you are taking your third and harrassing with mutas, as most zergs will turtle up hard and fast with several spores, queens, hydras, negating your muta harrass's ability to do further damage, albeit contained on 2 base. Furthermore, they may turtle and then go into super-corrupter production mode, massing a flock asap, and likely doing burrow antics (ala roach/infestor) to counter you. So, you need a crap ton of spines, decent detection, and make use of those few minutes of fear of moving out to take a third/forth and tech to broodlords.
Personally, I still feel mutas are a tad gimicky, due to their inability to do too much to a large number of roaches, and every muta is 4 more roaches he could have to wreck your base in a counter. Personally, I go speedling into roach into roach burrow-move with +2/+2, and maybe hydras for support and olord speed (to make a quick creep highway to get there faster), with infestors, and in most cases, I win a base race while taking a third and sporeing it up, making use of olord creep pee to build spores simultaneously during the attack which can become a base race. Also, having a decent number of infestors escort my roaches seems to be strong, still in the current state of the meta game, to pick off mutas such that they pose little threat to my incoming tanky army of roaches that just don't die fast enough for a typical muta-ing player's tastes, and of course, if I can, I just walk past the spines at the front to engage gas miners/spire/roach warren/workers/queens/hatches, generally in that order of importance, and I try to snipe the lair if I can, such that I negate the ability to make future overseers, allowing me to burrow in your base.
Idk, interesting, but I still think it has flaws, yet indeed, this can allow for a decent amount of safe expanding, for a short while at least. Most importantly, expanding and spines ready for absorbing a counter should be top of the priority list upon moving out with mutas...
Good luck, not my style, at least not just yet, but it would be nice to see the meta game shift from a roach centric universe...
~DuncanIdaho
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EPT
