|
On October 10 2011 10:16 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus? I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me.
Let's retry
Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp.
As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp
As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus.
I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
|
An FFE plan can easily become a nexus first, just saying. When I FFE on 2 player maps, I 9 scout (as everyone should, for every PvZ strat), and if there is a late pool build I will nexus first and be ahead economically, if only by a little.
Just thought I should throw this in as a counter to those thinking the FFE isn't as economic as possible.
|
On October 10 2011 10:19 xlava wrote:
An FFE plan can easily become a nexus first, just saying. When I FFE on 2 player maps, I 9 scout (as everyone should, for every PvZ strat), and if there is a late pool build I will nexus first and be ahead economically, if only by a little.
Yes. The entire point of FFE is you can adjust timings of each building and be very safe in the immediate and relatively immediate future.
|
On October 10 2011 10:16 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus? I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
Allow me to put in my two sense...
First of all, 1 gate expand, and forge fast expand is 100% preference. Just as any other variation of build or decision we make in the game, as a gamer you are balancing risk and reward. Not everyone says "I am going to 1g expand on every map no matter what" and not everyone says "I am going to ffe on every map no matter what". This is a preference you choose based off of the map you are playing on, the information you gather from scouting, and any previous experiences you may have had.
If you know zerg can put a specific amount of pressure on you and force a worker pull, is the lost mining time worth the nexus building a half a min sooner? And this goes for everyone, just because someone does not do the same build you do, doesn't make it wrong. Builds should be reactions to what your opponent is doing, not written in stone. Same goes with unit composition, personally 2/3 of the time I go 1g expand I build zealot stalker, not zealot sentry sentry.
Also, in broodwar the concept or metagame was that if zerg went for an early pool, they would be behind economically. The more larvae they put into zerglings the less they have for drones, and thus the snowball effect would hurt them in the mid game. In starcraft 2 however, there is one offset, the queen. The sooner the zerg finish a pool, the quicker they can produce a queen, and with larvae injects, the queen acts like a macro hatch. Have you ever been 6 pooled and after finally finishing off the zerglings, you press forward for a counter attack and realize your opponent is on 2 fully saturated bases?
|
On October 10 2011 10:17 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:16 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus? I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot. There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me. Let's retry Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage. Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus. I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base.
Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings.
If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing.
|
no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well.
|
The thing is, if FFE is bad, sentry expand is worse. Zerg can play identically against sentry expand that they can play against FFE, the only difference is your expo comes up two minutes later. With FFE you get cannons first, then sentries. With sentry expand you just get sentries, then cannons. You can't skip cannons with a sentry expand or you just lose to a ling counter if you ever leave your base.
|
On October 10 2011 10:54 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:17 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:16 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus? I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot. There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me. Let's retry Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage. Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus. I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe. Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing.
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
|
On October 10 2011 11:04 Xequecal wrote:
The thing is, if FFE is bad, sentry expand is worse. Zerg can play identically against sentry expand that they can play against FFE, the only difference is your expo comes up two minutes later. With FFE you get cannons first, then sentries. With sentry expand you just get sentries, then cannons. You can't skip cannons with a sentry expand or you just lose to a ling counter if you ever leave your base.
Actually 3gate sentry expo is about as safe as you can possibly be. You will be very safe moving out with 3+ WGs of reinforcements, unlike FFE/1g expo. Or if you think sentries are immobile vs slings, let me know how well you can "move out" with your cannons.
|
On October 10 2011 11:03 SoKHo wrote:
no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well.
A competent zerg player can just kill your fast third. The difference between a zerg expansion and a toss expansion is the fact that the zerg can use his expo for offence. When he sees you take a fast third he won't be behind because he got a fast third , he can utilize the larvae from that third to just fucking kill you. When you get a third you don't get any units from it, you will have an incredibly small gateway force and a competent zerg will kill you.
|
From the comments it just seems the majority of the people who posted so far are completely theorycrafting and never really gave a 2-gate opening out of FFE a hard look.
If the zerg goes for a fast 3rd you will do damage if you micro correctly and no, roaches will not be out in time. The build order is very tight but you can hit their 3rd around 7 mins with initial 3-5 zealots w/ +1 weapons finishing (I prefer +1 as you get an earlier gas, and it leads to stronger faster +2 and +3 follow-up timings). You drone non-stop behind the push and even if they save their hatch you likely are ahead on workers.
Some tips for people trying this:
-Try to keep your initial probe scout alive, and scout ~5-6 min mark for a fast 3rd. If there's no fast 3rd try to sneak in his main. This is right around the time his roaches will pop from a 2-base roachling all-in and should give you enough of a heads up to make 2-3 more cannons at your front.
-If you scout the 3rd truck your zealots over. I usually make my core ASAP after my first gate pops, then grab my 2nd gas and throw down my robo and add 4 gates as I move out (you can also expand at this point on certain maps, but throwing down 4 gates is a lot safer). The robo is a very strong transition IMO because early on your threat is mostly roaches so it gives you earlier access to immortals. But most importantly, warp prism harass becomes 20x more effective when they are 3 bases.
-If there's no 3rd and you scout probe couldn't get into his main, try just sending your initial zealots out before +1 finishes, clear watchtowers and spot the main attack path. You have to be very wary of a roachling all-in and you want as much of a heads up as possible to make those additional cannons. And no, roaches won't shut down your zealot play simply because at this point in the game they will have roach speed and your zealots can simply run away to the safety of cannons. If you see a ton of lings at this point in the game chances are very high he is attempting a baneling bust. Get a 2nd gas up and make cannons and sentries ASAP.
-If he's on 2-base and you only see a handful of lings as defense then that means they are going either mutas or infestors. Generally I just follow noumena's guide and still attempt to harass since you should hit them before the first wave of mutas or infestors pop with a bunch of +1/+1 zealots. This buys you time to prepare for whichever tech he chooses. Actually though teching to HT at this point can be done blind since it counters both mutas and infestors.
The opener is in no way "gimmicky" or relies on your opponent not scouting your 2 gates, chrono on forge, etc, and is a great way to punish and keep a zerg honest out of a FFE. If done correctly you will either do a ton of damage or be ahead on workers if they grabbed a fast 3rd.
|
I've seen a few top tier players do this. And sometimes it just falls apart when the Zerg sees incoming and produces enough army to surround/chase down those zealots. A big counter attack would come and all of a sudden the protoss seems to be rely only on FF and cannons to barely survive, if not straight up lose the game.
|
On October 10 2011 11:04 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:54 DanceSC wrote:On October 10 2011 10:17 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:16 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus? I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot. There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me. Let's retry Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage. Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus. I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe. Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing. See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Oh cute, the copy and paste button,
Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base.
Lets see if you catch on too.
|
On October 10 2011 11:36 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 11:04 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:54 DanceSC wrote:On October 10 2011 10:17 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:16 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:
[quote]
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus? I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot. There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me. Let's retry Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage. Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus. I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe. Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing. See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage. Oh cute, the copy and paste button, Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Lets see if you catch on too.
The entire point is you can't "fake a 1g expo" with a ling sitting there watching. Then it's not faking it. The Zerg will see that you never expo and instead decided to gift 75 minerals.
|
If you see a gas opening by Zerg, as P, 1 gate expand isn't the safest. Consider getting forge before expanding.
Also, and this is map dependent, make nexus, then get forge going, or 2 more gateways after throwing nexus down. You will be fine, you will not lose the nexus. You will force a cancel, but Protoss will be ahead in workers and with the 2 extra gateways made, you will have an army to protect the nexus.
I think 3 gate expand is better, but if you go 1 gate expand or 2 gate expand, you will not be behind if have to cancel, even if you have to cancel a few times.
Buildings under the ramp is not safe.
no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well.
This is really map dependent, but that'd be very hard to hold without Colossi or units. I think it was the games where Genius went FFE-1gatecyber-Colossi, but of course he did it because it worked before for him so...
I don't think the 'counter' is a fast third for Toss. Toss goes FFE, Zerg takes fast third, and the game is off from there.
|
On October 10 2011 11:57 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 11:36 DanceSC wrote:On October 10 2011 11:04 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:54 DanceSC wrote:On October 10 2011 10:17 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:16 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:
[quote]
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus? I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot. There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me. Let's retry Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage. Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus. I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe. Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing. See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage. Oh cute, the copy and paste button, Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Lets see if you catch on too. The entire point is you can't "fake a 1g expo" with a ling sitting there watching. Then it's not faking it. The Zerg will see that you never expo and instead decided to gift 75 minerals.
No one said anything about 'faking an expansion' either I scout your build and decide it is safe to 1g expo or I don't, whether you scout it or not does not matter. It is not like a 'dark shrine' where I feel as if I must be sneaky about it. If I know it is safe to do so I will. Stating that one build is clearly better then another is ignorant, you are proving nothing by assuming protoss will not react/adapt to what you are doing.
|
I love this style! I've been doing different variants of it and I think it really lets you take an early third with no problem, here's a replay of me against a 1600 master zerg if anyones interested. obviously i'm no kiwikaki but I see how this style could have tons of viability, I accidentally cancelled my mothership I think twice in this game it felt like I had way to many probes, but nonetheless, maybe this can be made into a solid opening.
http://replayfu.com/r/Kr0KDg
it's a big risk to open this build on shattered temple, but i hate not opening ffe
|
On October 10 2011 11:11 Easytouch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 11:03 SoKHo wrote:
no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well. A competent zerg player can just kill your fast third. The difference between a zerg expansion and a toss expansion is the fact that the zerg can use his expo for offence. When he sees you take a fast third he won't be behind because he got a fast third , he can utilize the larvae from that third to just fucking kill you. When you get a third you don't get any units from it, you will have an incredibly small gateway force and a competent zerg will kill you.
uggh, I don't mean a fast third at 8:00. I mean a fast third as in 10:00. They can't just straight up kill you. Get fast collosus with sentry and defend.
|
Like all my posts, I'm not a pro, but here's my ideas 
This isn't an entirely new opening. Kiwi is just twisting it another creative way. there are a few guides like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259635 that use this kind of opening in a variety of ways. I've seen a fast single zealot to get an early scout to 4-5 zealots with a +1 attack and now kiwis 6 zealot no attack upgrade. This opening is full of awesome because it is letting you put pressure on the zerg yes, but it also lets you see wtf he's doing since ffe doesn't give you much map control past your ramp usually. If you run those in and they run into roaches on creep and can't escape, then you just found out that zealot/archon isn't the greatest choice. If they run into mass ling and infestors or don't find a 3rd from zerg, probably shouldn't take a fast 3rd yourself because that stupid infested terran bust might be coming.
Kiwi transitioning out of this opening with double stargate is alright, but only depending on what he scouts from zerg. Day9 just did a daily even on why you do such things. If you open fast zealots whats zerg going to have? probably some form of anti-ground unit based army. So now if i fly in with a bunch of phoenix (or voidray) I have air and you have anti-ground and I can exploit you in some way. Also if you go stargate and he goes and all ins you, you have void rays instead of ground stuff to fight the stuff that can't shoot up! :D
|
I play Z in masters, and I have come against this early 2 gate zealot after forge attack probably 10 times. Because I am good about scouting their front, it's easy for me to see chrono on the gates and make a bunch of lings in time to hold this off without losing any drones/queens/hatches. I've never actually had a game where this killed a hatch. Yes, it forced lings instead of drones but I don't think it's worth it for the protoss. People are wrong in saying roaches are the counter because nobody would ever get roaches that fast while going for the fast 3rd. I think most people don't start the roach warren until their lair has begun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
