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The Problem With the FFE, the Transition.
So as I was watching IPL in the Kiwi Vs. Stephano series I noticed that Kiwi did this really cool thing. In my eyes, he solved the big dilemma of the FFE, which is the zerg responds by taking a fast third because he feels safe. By the time any 2 base play comes out to pressure such an early third it gets crushed by the 3 base economy of the zerg (because it comes out too late). If a protoss player tries to get a fast third that can also usually be crushed by the zerg. Though sometimes a player can just go for a fast third and get away with it. However, such a play is a calculated risk and it is very hard to get away with against a good player.
But what kiwi did is he would chrono boost out 6 zealots from 2 gateways, and then get a core and all 4 gases at once. Then with these very quick 6 zealots he would walk over to the third base of the zerg and very easily deny it. He did this 2/3 games and the only reason why he didnt do it the 3rd game is because Stephano was prepared and intercepted all of the zealots and got a surround.
Anyways, I think this opening has alot of potential and is just fucking amazing! The 6 zealots that you get out by the 7 min mark is early enough that it puts alot of pressure on the zerg and most zergs will not expect such fast pressure coming off of a FFE. However, I really dislike all of Kiwi's transitions out of this play. In 2/3 games he went double stargate (which I absolutely hate, as I only like stargate builds because they gain map control over the zerg, 2 stargates is just too much of an overcommitment for me) into a fairly early third. The second game however, he went for a very fast third as his 6 zealots were going to the third base of Stephano's.
Anyways, what do you think would be a good safe transition out of this amazing opening? I'm wary that many zergs will respond to their third getting denied by just all inning your front.
Because of this I really only see two ways out of this opening
Turtle on 2 bases:
+ Show Spoiler + You could maybe go for a 6 gate after you have denied third? However, I'm wary that zerg will just instantly rebuild his third and your 6 gate will just die. However, I am not sure if such a 6 gate would come out later or earlier in relation to when the zerg gets up his third and thus it might succeed.
However, maybe you could research +1 while the attack is happening, then because the 6 gate is so much later you will have a much better economy. The reason you would have such a stronger economy is because since the push would come out so much later in game time, you would have alot more probes because you never cut probes.
Maybe you could spend 4-5 chronos on WG to get it out ASAP and then lay as 4-5 gateways down and do a +1 delayed 6-7 gate? The only reason I see this working is because you are able to chrono out the WG research done faster and get 6 gates out because of the fact that your economy can more easily support those 5 extra gateways.
Maybe you could go for a single stargate build? However any SG units will be so delayed so I don't know :/
Get a quick third like game 2:
+ Show Spoiler +This would put you waaay ahead of the zerg, but what if they just decide to 2 base bum rush you when they realize the situation? Maybe this would work if you could save your 6 zealots that you used to kill the hatch so you still have a good zealot force, and then cannoned the fuck out of your nat and third?
Anyways, I just wanted to bring this build to the attention of TL and I really hope that you guys could give me your thoughts on this play and what do you think is a viable followup.
Here is a vod of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/297001692
1st Game: 16:30
2nd Game: 33:00
3rd Game: 1:15:30
Replays of Kiwi vs Stephano: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/
G1: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/IPL 3 Shakuras Plateau.SC2Replay
G2: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/IPL 3 Shattered Temple.SC2Replay
G3: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/IPL 3 Metalopolis.SC2Replay
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Early roaches shut down those zealots way too easily. Once that happens, the game is literally over. This strategy relies upon zerg to not scout and assume he can drone for 5 minutes.
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In general, it should be fairly easy to scout once this joins the "metagame" if you will.
After scouting, at the very least it will force roaches out quicker, slowing down the eco significantly. It shouldn't be too hard to keep that third once you see chrono'd gates.
Also, chrono'd gate means less chrono'd probes, or warp gate. If the zerg gets 5 or so roach out in time I think it'd but the protoss back a fair way. Toss here are trading tech and midgame army.
All in all, I like it, but I don't know if it'd ever become standard.
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In my opinion Stephano made a mistake by not scouting it, I think I read a thread not a while ago, about a '2 gate' after FFE. You can always scout it if there are 2 gates at the front, so its just bad from Stephano that he didn't react at all and thought he was safe.
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Well I think in general this is a good response to a quick zerg third. If the zerg tries to bust you with you roaches, then you would just approach the game as you normally would.
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i think FFE is just bad. any good zerg when seeing early forge can power out 20 drones a minute (2 queens, 2hatch) take a third and be 70drones vs 45probes. but of course every toss is doing it because no ones found anything better
i think ive found the future of earlygame ZvP and i plan to message saracen soon and play the bo3 with him to test the build and provide replays. but of course its dumb to say that because why havnt the top pro koreans started doing what im doing? so i dunno my winrate vs PvZ ever since i really started to get the matchup is like 100% and ill be facing grandmasters soon so i guess ill find out then how much it cna work
the future of earlygame ZvP is you need a build that most likely doesnt get a early forge, and cuts zero economy, and while cutting zero economy you put as much pressure as you can on the zerg to stop his droning.
i call the above paragraph the GOLDEN RULE of earlygame ZvP. any build you do must follow the GOLDEN RULE or its simply put bad and a good zerg should tear you apart
im sure many tosses think they following the golden rule. but most BO's that are gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing will normally cut probes at around 19 probes, not a good idea since your killing getting your final economy asap. also most gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing have the toss cutting his chronoboosts on his nexus after 15probes, also bad. by maxing out chronoboosts on your nexus and not cutting probes you can hit saturation much faster and have more economy. then, while maxing out your economy you put as much pressure as you can. im not saying gateway-expands are bad, im saying most of the time a protoss isnt following the golden rule and he is cutting some economy.
the above sounds easy and it is once you find a optimized build that follows the golden rule properly.
and ive found two builds follow the golden rule pretty well. im sure there are more builds that also follow the golden rule but i havnt explored everything yet and im sure 2 builds is a good start
and also toss pretty much only has two options when it comes to earlygame PvZ. either you go forge-expand or gateway-expand.
and i think forge first is just bad because of queens in sc2 letting a good zerg power out so much drones once he sees the forge
the golden rule basically simply means that you cut zero economy, and put as much pressure as you can while cutting no economy.
and most forge-expand builds actually do follow the golden rule. they usually never cut probes, the problem is i simply feel there are no "good" forge-expand builds because even if you try to follow the golden rule the forge-first is just too bad because of queen mechanics
i still havnt seen any good forge-expands that are "good". ive seen many forge expands follow the golden rule, but they still dont end up being "good".
i am open to the possibility that there are "good" forge expand builds out there, i just havent seen it yet. so pretty much im putting most of my research into gateway expand builds.
and so far ive found two gateway-expand builds that follow the golden rule and i feel are pretty good at having a equal early game with the zerg
heres the last game i played against zerg. i used a build thats pretty much a "zealot pressure expand" but it cuts no economy and your pretty much safe from any all-in from the zerg if you scout at 9pylon
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=236306
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I have been doing this before this series. Usually when I spot early roaches I make an absurd amount of cannons and that usually solves the problem.
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Can this be timed with +1 or is that usually too late?
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This isn't really new, several threads have been posted advocating similar builds. I've also seen Minigun do similar builds several time on his stream.
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forge FE into 2 gate pressure with a quick +1 has been written in numerous threads here, it's not that new. but gaining popularity as a quick void ray has essentially been solved.
several weeks ago idra even called it the "french canadian" protoss style, "forge FE into a silly zealot timing into something gay" 
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On October 10 2011 08:09 warblob004 wrote:
Can this be timed with +1 or is that usually too late?
you can have 3-5 +1 zealots by about 8 minutes.
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On October 10 2011 08:09 warblob004 wrote:
Can this be timed with +1 or is that usually too late?
You can get just enough gas for +1 and time it for when the zealots move out. It's pretty powerful against a quick third.
Pair with warp prisms for ultimate satisfaction.
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On October 10 2011 07:44 Easytouch wrote: The Problem With the FFE, the Transition.So as I was watching IPL in the Kiwi Vs. Stephano series I noticed that Kiwi did this really cool thing. In my eyes, he solved the big dilemma of the FFE, which is the zerg responds by taking a fast third because he feels safe. By the time any 2 base play comes out to pressure such an early third it gets crushed by the 3 base economy of the zerg (because it comes out too late). If a protoss player tries to get a fast third that can also usually be crushed by the zerg. Though sometimes a player can just go for a fast third and get away with it. However, such a play is a calculated risk and it is very hard to get away with against a good player. But what kiwi did is he would chrono boost out 6 zealots from 2 gateways, and then get a core and all 4 gases at once. Then with these very quick 6 zealots he would walk over to the third base of the zerg and very easily deny it. He did this 2/3 games and the only reason why he didnt do it the 3rd game is because Stephano was prepared and intercepted all of the zealots and got a surround. Anyways, I think this opening has alot of potential and is just fucking amazing! The 6 zealots that you get out by the 7 min mark is early enough that it puts alot of pressure on the zerg and most zergs will not expect such fast pressure coming off of a FFE. However, I really dislike all of Kiwi's transitions out of this play. In 2/3 games he went double stargate (which I absolutely hate, as I only like stargate builds because they gain map control over the zerg, 2 stargates is just too much of an overcommitment for me) into a fairly early third. The second game however, he went for a very fast third as his 6 zealots were going to the third base of Stephano's. Anyways, what do you think would be a good safe transition out of this amazing opening? I'm wary that many zergs will respond to their third getting denied by just all inning your front. Because of this I really only see two ways out of this opening Turtle on 2 bases: + Show Spoiler + You could maybe go for a 6 gate after you have denied third? However, I'm wary that zerg will just instantly rebuild his third and your 6 gate will just die. However, I am not sure if such a 6 gate would come out later or earlier in relation to when the zerg gets up his third and thus it might succeed.
However, maybe you could research +1 while the attack is happening, then because the 6 gate is so much later you will have a much better economy. The reason you would have such a stronger economy is because since the push would come out so much later in game time, you would have alot more probes because you never cut probes.
Maybe you could spend 4-5 chronos on WG to get it out ASAP and then lay as 4-5 gateways down and do a +1 delayed 6-7 gate? The only reason I see this working is because you are able to chrono out the WG research done faster and get 6 gates out because of the fact that your economy can more easily support those 5 extra gateways.
Maybe you could go for a single stargate build? However any SG units will be so delayed so I don't know :/ This would put you waaay ahead of the zerg, but what if they just decide to 2 base bum rush you when they realize the situation? Maybe this would work if you could save your 6 zealots that you used to kill the hatch so you still have a good zealot force, and then cannoned the fuck out of your nat and third? Anyways, I just wanted to bring this build to the attention of TL and I really hope that you guys could give me your thoughts on this play and what do you think is a viable followup. Here is a vod of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/2970016921st Game: 16:30 2nd Game: 33:00 3rd Game: 1:15:30 Replays of Kiwi vs Stephano: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/G1: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/IPL 3 Shakuras Plateau.SC2ReplayG2: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/IPL 3 Shattered Temple.SC2ReplayG3: http://lab.millenium.org/replays/IPL3/IPL 3 Metalopolis.SC2Replay
Easytouch
Let's try some basic math, shall we?
Forge. 150 minerals
2 Cannons. 300 minerals
1 nexus. 400 minerals
Total, 850 minerals
2 Hatcheries. 600 minerals
1 Queens. 150 minerals
2 Drones. 100 minerals
Total, 850 minerals
Therefore, the only part missing is 1 queen, or a zealot and a a probe worth of an army
Since at this juncture in the game, you don't have warp gate tech to neutralize logistical disadvantage, in theory they have more than enough time to deflect/defend any "punishing" you have in mind.
The main strength of FFE is really the option for a fast +1 or +2 while safely getting a 2nd base faster than you normally can afford to do so.
There is no real "weakness" that you can punish the Zerg for per se.
I should of course clarify that a fast +1 is normally good for zealots which doesn't present much of a threat with the availability of roaches. +2 is usually reserved for stalkers, hence the resurgence of heavy blink stalker play a few months back esp from China.
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On October 10 2011 08:11 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 08:09 warblob004 wrote:
Can this be timed with +1 or is that usually too late? You can get just enough gas for +1 and time it for when the zealots move out. It's pretty powerful against a quick third. Pair with warp prisms for ultimate satisfaction.
You mean Noumena's PvZ Opener?
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On October 10 2011 08:17 VashTS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 08:11 Crysack wrote:On October 10 2011 08:09 warblob004 wrote:
Can this be timed with +1 or is that usually too late? You can get just enough gas for +1 and time it for when the zealots move out. It's pretty powerful against a quick third. Pair with warp prisms for ultimate satisfaction. You mean Noumena's PvZ Opener?
Pretty much, yeah. I personally prefer this variation because it makes your zealots ludicrously cost-effective against zerglings with the correct micro.
I also like the idea of getting the robo for two reasons:
a) You get warp prisms for further harass at the third/main
b) The availability of immortals makes it safer against roach pushes (although you should be fine with cannons anyway).
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I may not have the attention span to read the guide now but holy shit thank you for the replays.
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On October 10 2011 08:16 Emperor_Earth wrote:
Easytouch
Let's try some basic math, shall we?
Forge. 150 minerals
2 Cannons. 300 minerals
1 nexus. 400 minerals
Total, 850 minerals
2 Hatcheries. 600 minerals
1 Queens. 150 minerals
2 Drones. 100 minerals
Total, 850 minerals
Therefore, the only part missing is 1 queen, or a zealot and a a probe worth of an army
Since at this juncture in the game, you don't have warp gate tech to neutralize logistical disadvantage, in theory they have more than enough time to deflect/defend any "punishing" you have in mind.
The main strength of FFE is really the option for a fast +1 or +2 while safely getting a 2nd base faster than you normally can afford to do so.
There is no real "weakness" that you can punish the Zerg for per se.
I should of course clarify that a fast +1 is normally good for zealots which doesn't present much of a threat with the availability of roaches. +2 is usually reserved for stalkers, hence the resurgence of heavy blink stalker play a few months back esp from China.
Sure, this works in theory, but the fact of the matter is most zergs will just drone their dicks off when they see a FFE. The only way to effectively stop the punishment is too make enough combat units of their own. Even if they did so and nullified your zealot push you would still have forced alot of non-drones out of larva. The 6 zealots are effective as proved by Kiwikaki. However I do understand that if this became "standard" then it could be very easily countered.
On October 10 2011 07:52 Micket wrote:
Early roaches shut down those zealots way too easily. Once that happens, the game is literally over. This strategy relies upon zerg to not scout and assume he can drone for 5 minutes.
On October 10 2011 07:56 BrahCJ wrote:
In general, it should be fairly easy to scout once this joins the "metagame" if you will.
After scouting, at the very least it will force roaches out quicker, slowing down the eco significantly. It shouldn't be too hard to keep that third once you see chrono'd gates.
Also, chrono'd gate means less chrono'd probes, or warp gate. If the zerg gets 5 or so roach out in time I think it'd but the protoss back a fair way. Toss here are trading tech and midgame army.
All in all, I like it, but I don't know if it'd ever become standard.
I disagree that roaches would stop the push. The goal of the zealots is not to fight with units, it is to kill the hatchery. Yes roaches counter zealots in the fact that in a straight up battle the roaches would kill the zealots, but I don't think roaches would stop this push. This is because of the fact that roaches have a much much lower ratio of DPS/Resources ratio. For the zerg to counter this push they must either kill the zealots before they get to the hatch (as seen in game 3) or they have to kill the zealots AT the hatch. Roaches definitely would cost alot more to kill the zealots at the hatch because it would cost 3x more to do the same dps to the zealots.
Roaches would nullify the threat of the zealots if they intercepted zealots in the middle of the map, but lings could just do the same thing.
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What kiwikaki did is essentially a 2 gate. He just went FFE first, so it was basically delayed by a good 1-2 minutes in exchange for +1 and more zealots.
It's not really a good build, for the same reason 2 gate is a bad build. It can definitely catch Zerg off guard, but any amount of scouting (seeing 2 gates, having an overlord in front of the base, seeing late gas or chronos on 2 gates) will deny it with roaches or speedlings + spines. While zealots are great against roaches when it's medium numbers vs medium numbers, not when Zerg is being defensive on creep.
Most Zerg go super fast third and get the roach warren around 6:30-6:45. The timing of this FFE 2 gate means that Zerg can actually get enough roaches to hold. With a 6:45 roach warren, you will have a larva inject of roaches popping out the second the zealots arrive in your base. This is assuming you didn't scout at all.
edit: It is, however, a decent transition into a super heavy tech all-in, like double stargate, archons, or double robo. The pressure from this build forces a huge cut in drones, and will result in Protoss with a worker lead. While usually Zerg will just kill you with the 4-8 roaches left over, they don't have many drones to reinforce and usually will prefer to make workers instead, allowing for Protoss to take an uncontested third, or take out a Zerg with heavy tech before they have lair.
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OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
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EPT
