Yes of course if you scout gas pool they will have ling speed, but that means no fast 3rd and you can just do a normal FFE if you want, but you can still do a zealot opening too you just have to be aware of 2-base timings. Poke with your initial 3 zealots and it will give you indication of what they are doing. I'm not going to go into all the different paths from here but protoss is not exactly in a bad situation having only invested in +1 weapons and 3 zealots. My main point is that a zealot opener keeps a zerg honest who goes for the fast 3rd which many people on these forums believe "counters" a FFE.
You must not have read what I said correctly. I said many, many top level Zergs open 14/14 in every ZvP, and when they scout FFE, they go for a fast third, and many times will still get ling speed even if they find out before they begin research.
Nestea, Losira, and Check all open 14/14 in ZvP, and all of them get a super fast third in response to FFE. Some people would argue that speed is useless against FFE and if you want to go fast third, but by no means is it impossible or even uncommon that Zerg opens ling speed and then gets a fast third in response to a FFE.
Actually I think MOST zergs open zergling speed and then take a fast third against FFE. So you're understanding is just.... wrong, there.
Fast third doesn't exactly 'counter' FFE, it's just a really good response and if you scout and react properly, you will always come out ahead. That doesn't mean Protoss can't react properly or do a macro oriented build that at least keeps them even.
Again I wasn't advocating the use of heavy zealot aggression in every scenario, although I still like doing a zealot poke out of FFE even vs 2 base just to see what the zerg is up to. It's sort of like overlord scouting, you sac some minerals to take a gander at their army comp and what not and react from there.
You made 2 gateways. If you want to make 2 gateways at the delay of your cybercore, and not take any gas and delay tech for the sake of 2 gateway pressure, be my guest. But there's a reason defensive 4 gate against Zerg is bad, even if you could, I suppose, go into a macro game off it.
I don't know where you're going with this. Obviously a hidden third is risky. I can also often figure out you have a fast 3rd by gauging your unit composition and tech with some initial zealots. Ling speed means no fast 3rd. Late third is what protoss wants as the point was to stop the early 3rd + mass droning.
Dude, Ling speed does not mean no fast third. I have no clue why in the world you think this, but let me just tell you that you are outright wrong in your assumption. I think you said yourself you don't actually play Zerg or know that much about them from a player's point of view, but you can watch any Losira or Nestea game and just realize that they always go 14/14 (actually I think Nestea goes 14/13, but basically same thing), and then still go fast third. Check, and many other Zergs-who-arent-nestea-and-losira open 14/14 with ling speed and take a fast third when they see FFE.
Hell, I went 14/14 in ZvP and then would go fast third if I scouted FFE for a very long time. The only reason I changed my build was because... well, no good reason, and no reason that's relevant to this discussion really. It's a great way to open ZvP, and it being too expensive or delaying my third was never a reason I stopped doing it.
What I meant is that Protoss can't easily know if Zerg took a fast third before throwing down the 2nd gateway before cybercore. Sure, sometimes you can, sometimes you can metagame, but what if Zerg decides to just 2 base it? You threw down your 2 gateways, you probably threw down your cybercore already even and then it's 30 supply and Zerg DOESNT get a third. Oops, you did the wrong build, maybe you should've picked heads!
. At 5:45 I will have 1-3 zealots out. You have no idea how many zealots I'm going to mass, what timing I will hit or if I'm even going to attack you at all. Your only indication would be the 2 gates and a chrono'ed forge. If you're on 3 base you will have had to cut a ton of econ to get that early of a warren, and if you're on 2 base I'm already super wary of a roachling all-in and will be sending out my initial zealots out earlier. Even if I do hit at 7 mins and then your roaches pop I can simply retreat back to my base and warp in cannons and get 1 tech unit out in time (i.e. immortal). Slow roaches and zealots are the same speed.
Actually, I will. When I see 2 gateways, I set an overlord out front. In fact, I always set an overlord near the natural against FFE, and I will see exactly how many zealots and chronos you are using, and there is nothing you can do to deny Zerg from seeing that, unless you hide the 2nd gateway in your base (which isn't the worst idea, but you need a wall-in somehow).
No, Zerg doesn't cut any econ getting a 6:30 warren that will get roaches in time. you can run back with your zealots if you want, but I'll make 20 more roaches and do a shitton of damage and drone up behind it.
Again, the point isn't to kill the zerg or the third (it's just a bonus if you can do it). It's just to keep them from droning like crazy.
I'll happily quit droning if you are making zealots off of 2 gates and had a late cybercore.
The problem with FFE 2 gate is that the pressure comes too late to do any real damage, and it's extremely easy to scout. I don't have to change anything in my build, I get my 6:30 roach warren like every Zerg does, I get my 6:40 evo chamber, and I get my 2 gas, just like every Zerg does when going fast third. I know exactly whaty ou are doing with a ling poke and an overlord around your natural, and when you move out I make a spine or two, do some fancy footwork, and was delayed for 20 seconds while you were delayed by much more, by making roaches to your zealots. I then can do some serious damage to you with just 10 roaches, because you have no sentries or many stalkers, and super late tech.
Of course, I could also just scout, play competently, get a 5:30 roach warren, and just go kill you or be ready for you.
I disagree I feel it is very stable. Again the goal isn't to kill the zerg or the third. It is not like DTs or SG or anything like that because those are heavy time and resource sinks. An extra gateway and some zealots are not huge resource sinks and does not delay tech at all depending on how you want to do it. The difference is mostly in unit composition as you will be more mineral heavy than gas heavy. 3-gate sentry expand actually is horrible pressure, because sentries are not good offensive units (they need supporting DPS units). 3-gate sentry expand is a safe opener, not an offensive opener. Zerg can very very safely get their third a lot earlier than protoss can get theirs from a 3-gate sentry expand.
Okay. Your protoss. I'll take your word for it.
Personally, i don't think it's a great build, but yes, zealots are expendable and there are ways to continue the game as Protoss in a way that isn't hurt by making zealots or delaying tech.
And 3 gate sentry expand, fyi, is an offensive opener, in that Zerg cannot get a third with it. Zerg cannot safely take a third at all against 3 gate sentry expand except on maps like Terminus (easily defendable, tucked away 3rd) or Tal Darim (very big). Zerg can't really take a third until knowing what Protoss opened (ie if he goes SG or robo, he can get third, if protoss goes aggressive warp gate, you can't get a third).
I wish I could cite you an example, but there have been 2 recent games on XNC (both of them) where Zerg tries to take a fast third against 3 gate sentry expand, loses it, despite not droning. Just take my word for it I guess, like I'm taking yours.
You must not have read what I said correctly. I said many, many top level Zergs open 14/14 in every ZvP, and when they scout FFE, they go for a fast third, and many times will still get ling speed even if they find out before they begin research.
Nestea, Losira, and Check all open 14/14 in ZvP, and all of them get a super fast third in response to FFE. Some people would argue that speed is useless against FFE and if you want to go fast third, but by no means is it impossible or even uncommon that Zerg opens ling speed and then gets a fast third in response to a FFE.
Actually I think MOST zergs open zergling speed and then take a fast third against FFE. So you're understanding is just.... wrong, there.
I never said anything about how common what opener is or what, I don't know where you got that from, but getting gas, mining 100 gas, then spending 100/100 on ling speed significantly delays your third. Also seeing gas/pool opening and gas being mined you can abandon this opener if you want since you know any 3rd would be delayed, although +1 zealots still destroy lings, speed or not.
Fast third doesn't exactly 'counter' FFE, it's just a really good response and if you scout and react properly, you will always come out ahead. That doesn't mean Protoss can't react properly or do a macro oriented build that at least keeps them even.
I never said it did counter it. I said it is popular opinion on these forums that it does.
You made 2 gateways. If you want to make 2 gateways at the delay of your cybercore, and not take any gas and delay tech for the sake of 2 gateway pressure, be my guest. But there's a reason defensive 4 gate against Zerg is bad, even if you could, I suppose, go into a macro game off it.
There is no delay in the core, it is thrown down immediately after your first gate. You can fit in the extra gateway because you are 1 gas longer. There is no delay in tech either as 1 gas still gives you enough gas to tech because you are not making early sentries.
Dude, Ling speed does not mean no fast third. I have no clue why in the world you think this, but let me just tell you that you are outright wrong in your assumption. I think you said yourself you don't actually play Zerg or know that much about them from a player's point of view, but you can watch any Losira or Nestea game and just realize that they always go 14/14 (actually I think Nestea goes 14/13, but basically same thing), and then still go fast third. Check, and many other Zergs-who-arent-nestea-and-losira open 14/14 with ling speed and take a fast third when they see FFE.
Hell, I went 14/14 in ZvP and then would go fast third if I scouted FFE for a very long time. The only reason I changed my build was because... well, no good reason, and no reason that's relevant to this discussion really. It's a great way to open ZvP, and it being too expensive or delaying my third was never a reason I stopped doing it.
I suppose we just have different definitions of a fast 3rd. My idea of a fast 3rd is no gas super greedy fast 3rd. I don't know about zerg from a zerg perspective yes but obviously I know the timings of common builds.
What I meant is that Protoss can't easily know if Zerg took a fast third before throwing down the 2nd gateway before cybercore. Sure, sometimes you can, sometimes you can metagame, but what if Zerg decides to just 2 base it? You threw down your 2 gateways, you probably threw down your cybercore already even and then it's 30 supply and Zerg DOESNT get a third. Oops, you did the wrong build, maybe you should've picked heads!
Again there is no delay in your core. You might just be looking at specifically kiwi's version, which I've said is more risky but with more potential to do damage (and it has less to do with the delay in the core and more to do with the very late gasses). But you don't have to delay your core at all if you don't want to. The main thing you really give up is the chronos and you use a lot of chrono on either your initial zealots and/or your +1 weapons. However I have no idea why you think the investment of a 2nd gateway, +1 weapons and some zealots is some huge, tech delaying investment. It's not. Ok say you 2 base. I send my zealots out and we traded some zealots for lings. I got a read on your army comp. Now I'm going into the midgame with +1 weapons and an "extra" gateway (extra infrastructure = good). How am I behind?
Actually, I will. When I see 2 gateways, I set an overlord out front. In fact, I always set an overlord near the natural against FFE, and I will see exactly how many zealots and chronos you are using, and there is nothing you can do to deny Zerg from seeing that, unless you hide the 2nd gateway in your base (which isn't the worst idea, but you need a wall-in somehow).
No, Zerg doesn't cut any econ getting a 6:30 warren that will get roaches in time. you can run back with your zealots if you want, but I'll make 20 more roaches and do a shitton of damage and drone up behind it.
Like I said 6:30 warren is too late. You will end up having to deal with the zealots with lings. Roaches will pop in your base which I will see and that gives me time to get cannons up and chrono out an immortal. And yeah you're not popping 20 roaches simultaneously the second your warren pops.
I'll happily quit droning if you are making zealots off of 2 gates and had a late cybercore.
Core is not late... why do you believe this lol
The problem with FFE 2 gate is that the pressure comes too late to do any real damage, and it's extremely easy to scout. I don't have to change anything in my build, I get my 6:30 roach warren like every Zerg does, I get my 6:40 evo chamber, and I get my 2 gas, just like every Zerg does when going fast third. I know exactly whaty ou are doing with a ling poke and an overlord around your natural, and when you move out I make a spine or two, do some fancy footwork, and was delayed for 20 seconds while you were delayed by much more, by making roaches to your zealots. I then can do some serious damage to you with just 10 roaches, because you have no sentries or many stalkers, and super late tech.
Again like I said the point isn't to do damage. I don't know how many times I have to say that. At standard warren timings it will come out too late. And no the counter roach push will not do any significant damage. However you are completely correct that it is easily scoutable, but like I said it doesn't matter if you scout it or not.
Of course, I could also just scout, play competently, get a 5:30 roach warren, and just go kill you or be ready for you.
Contrary to what you may believe but the zealot push is actually what gives me the scouting I need to minimize the damage from roach pushes. You can be "ready for me" with a 5:30 warren by sac'ing econ and all it took was for me to make a few zealots. Cool I'm in a good position.
Okay. Your protoss. I'll take your word for it.
Personally, i don't think it's a great build, but yes, zealots are expendable and there are ways to continue the game as Protoss in a way that isn't hurt by making zealots or delaying tech.
Now you are starting to get it.
And 3 gate sentry expand, fyi, is an offensive opener, in that Zerg cannot get a third with it. Zerg cannot safely take a third at all against 3 gate sentry expand except on maps like Terminus (easily defendable, tucked away 3rd) or Tal Darim (very big). Zerg can't really take a third until knowing what Protoss opened (ie if he goes SG or robo, he can get third, if protoss goes aggressive warp gate, you can't get a third).
I wish I could cite you an example, but there have been 2 recent games on XNC (both of them) where Zerg tries to take a fast third against 3 gate sentry expand, loses it, despite not droning. Just take my word for it I guess, like I'm taking yours.
Actually if you do find some I'd love to see them. What exactly are they pushing with? Most of the time a zerg can grab a third vs a sentry expand the protoss player has like 1 z, 6+ sentries and few stalkers. Hardly an offensive powerhouse. Of course it's hard to speculate here because so much depends on timing, drone cuts, what map, what positioning, the actual engagement, etc. But generally speaking it's hard to be very offensive with a sentry expand. And it's funny how you knock early zealot aggression and its "bad" risk/reward scenario when pushing with a plethora of sentries is incredibly more risky! Losing all those sentries, even if you do take out the third, HURTS as a protoss player, big time.
I never said anything about how common what opener is or what, I don't know where you got that from, but getting gas, mining 100 gas, then spending 100/100 on ling speed significantly delays your third. Also seeing gas/pool opening and gas being mined you can abandon this opener if you want since you know any 3rd would be delayed, although +1 zealots still destroy lings, speed or not.
I'm not going to agree or disagree about ling speed delaying a third, but I will tell you that many, many Zergs get ling speed, then a fast third. You said that scouting gas first or gas opening by Zerg indicated ling speed, indicating no fast third. I'm telling you that that's completely wrong, and you have a really, really wrong assumption there.
That would be like me saying "okay Protoss got a zealot first so you know he's not going stargate because his cybercore is going to be delayed". Like, not at all!
Ling speed does not delay the third at all man. You are just completely wrong about your assumption there. What Ling speed does is lower the drone count by a little, or it could mean they are going to stay on hatch tech and defend with hatch tech instead of trying to get lair. Or, really, it means shit-all, they just open 14/14, and saw FFE so got a fast third.
You can talk about the implications of ling speed openers all you want, but the truth of the matter is that it's just an opening, and Zerg get a fast third as a response, not as a build. It doesn't delay the third, if anything it means less drones and a later lair. Or less queens.
There is no delay in the core, it is thrown down immediately after your first gate. You can fit in the extra gateway because you are 1 gas longer. There is no delay in tech either as 1 gas still gives you enough gas to tech because you are not making early sentries.
Huh? That is TOTALLY NOT what the OP is talking about, or what Kiwikaki does!!
We are talking about FFE 2 gate, as in: Pylon Forge/Nexus Forge/Nexus Pylon 2 gateways No cybercore quite yet, chronoboost +1 and zealots and/or probes.
Going gateway , cyber, gateway is COMPLETELY different.
I'm sorry man, I really enjoy our conversation, but there are just huge communication problems going on hindering this and I have to clear it up:
1. Your misconception that ling speed affects fast third. It doesn't. It means a little less money for Zerg much, much later on. It usually translates to a later lair, but scouting gas or speed by Zerg has no impact on what they decide to do with a third or when. Please, understand this, because you seem to think that scouting ling speed affects how Zerg gets a fast third, and it doesn't.
2. The thread is discussion about what Kiwikaki has been doing for a very long time and showcased against Stephano - FFE into 2 gateways, and gets a few zealots before even making a cybercore, and applying pressure with +1.
. However I have no idea why you think the investment of a 2nd gateway, +1 weapons and some zealots is some huge, tech delaying investment. It's not
Here's what you said, so apply that to what I'm saying about ling speed and a third. Make sense?
Like I said 6:30 warren is too late. You will end up having to deal with the zealots with lings. Roaches will pop in your base which I will see and that gives me time to get cannons up and chrono out an immortal. And yeah you're not popping 20 roaches simultaneously the second your warren pops.
Yes, I've said repeatedly that a 6:30 warren means zealots will be in your base on the standard large sized map, but that the roaches will pop well in time before your zealots do more than force me to pull drones or kills a spine. That's also to say I could just scout you, and get a 5:30 warren. And yes, actually, I'm popping 10 (20 is an exaggeration) roaches all simultaneously the second the warren pops because I will make an extra overlord and the second my injects pop on 4 hatches, they all become roaches. On creep. To kite your zealots forever.
Actually if you do find some I'd love to see them. What exactly are they pushing with? Most of the time a zerg can grab a third vs a sentry expand the protoss player has like 1 z, 6+ sentries and few stalkers. Hardly an offensive powerhouse. Of course it's hard to speculate here because so much depends on timing, drone cuts, what map, what positioning, the actual engagement, etc. But generally speaking it's hard to be very offensive with a sentry expand. And it's funny how you knock early zealot aggression and its "bad" risk/reward scenario when pushing with a plethora of sentries is incredibly more risky! Losing all those sentries, even if you do take out the third, HURTS as a protoss player, big time.
Sigh... I'll look them up. I should remember because everytime I say 3 gate sentry expand is offensive and denies the third, and therefore is a really good build, I have Protoss who don't believe it.
I'm not going to agree or disagree about ling speed delaying a third, but I will tell you that many, many Zergs get ling speed, then a fast third. You said that scouting gas first or gas opening by Zerg indicated ling speed, indicating no fast third. I'm telling you that that's completely wrong, and you have a really, really wrong assumption there.
That would be like me saying "okay Protoss got a zealot first so you know he's not going stargate because his cybercore is going to be delayed". Like, not at all!
Ling speed does not delay the third at all man. You are just completely wrong about your assumption there. What Ling speed does is lower the drone count by a little, or it could mean they are going to stay on hatch tech and defend with hatch tech instead of trying to get lair. Or, really, it means shit-all, they just open 14/14, and saw FFE so got a fast third.
You can talk about the implications of ling speed openers all you want, but the truth of the matter is that it's just an opening, and Zerg get a fast third as a response, not as a build. It doesn't delay the third, if anything it means less drones and a later lair. Or less queens.
Well it does delay the third compared to a gasless third, that's just fact, but what you are saying is it doesn't delay it significantly. Ok that is just a matter of opinion. I explained what I consider a fast third (the gasless version) but again that's just a matter of opinion/perception.
Huh? That is TOTALLY NOT what the OP is talking about, or what Kiwikaki does!!
We are talking about FFE 2 gate, as in: Pylon Forge/Nexus Forge/Nexus Pylon 2 gateways No cybercore quite yet, chronoboost +1 and zealots and/or probes.
Going gateway , cyber, gateway is COMPLETELY different.
Yeah I tried to clarify exactly what I'm talking about. Like I said I agree kiwi's version is a very risky but higher potential payoff. I agree kiwi's version isn't stable, etc. But what I was trying to point out is that there is a lot of variation you can do with early zealot pressure, and that there is a stable way to do it if you so choose. That is a bit of a tangent from the OP though yes but I think it is very relevant because people should not dismiss the idea of 2-gate zealot pressure out of a FFE completely just based on kiwi's variation. Also kiwi doesn't get +1, which I also do not like.
Master Protoss, and Diamond zerg here For me FFE is better than 3 gate exo, They are much more economical. the nexus go up like 3 minutes earlier, And 1 big PLUS is you get a forge and can upgrade slowly but steady, normally when I do 4-5 gate or 5-6 gate timing attack with 3 gate expo, I have no upgrade, but with a forge fast expand when I move out with the fastest 6 gate I can have at least +1 attack, or a slower one with +2 attack or +1 attack +1 armor, that is HUGE really, It can make tons of different, the only drawback of FFE is they might be vulnerable to roach, ling all in or It is quite hard to take a third, vs a good zerg you can only take a third when a zerg get a forth, some may say that 6 pool can punish it, but I still think that unless big map and you scout the wrong base you will be fine, and zerg cant do 6 pool everytime, when 6 pool they cant scout what protoss do, and if protoss aware of that they can prevent it easily and come out ahead.
Muta switch can be quite strong if you go for 4-5 gate robo tc expand and they will shut you down in 2 2 bases for a long time, you cant move out unless you want a base trade which is in favor of zerg who got flying muta and can produce tons of spines, so stargate after forge fast expand can be good, but It make your ground quite weak if you do no damage with it But the metagame is flowing right now, Protoss is finding a way to refine this build. When there is only 1 opening in a match up, good player can refine the build more the more they play so I SUPPORT FFE in PvZ almost every map.
Remember several months ago, protoss only FFE in Taldarim Alter and Shakura Plateur and 1-2-3 gate expand other map, which can be good, but protoss do not know what to do after FFE except for some 2 base colossus timing, 6-7 gate push or stargate openning, which is why 1-2-3 expand can be good because it is a little bit more safe. And that is one of the reason protoss fail miserably in the last 2 months.
But GSTL just proved that protoss is adapting now, everyone do double forge in PvT and FFE in PvZ, zerg and terran has a hard time playing against it. It is a good sign of a refined build to me (a build that has no hole), and as an artosis article in broodwar said about korean training about they only practice 1 build in 1 matchup and master it, and know exactly the timing of every counter to it.
There have to be a reason why protoss in korea do FFE in every match vs zerg, they look promises now, every protoss in IPL3 do it now. And even though zerg can take early third, It is still difficult to hold some kind of timing by protoss off 2 bases, Protoss may fake a 7 gate all in with just 4-5 gate and build a army then take a third.
EDIT: and I do not know why this guy, Belial88 try to argue so much about kiwi build. Yes It is vulnerable to early roach, but with early roach, the zerg cant get a third base and then it will be 2bases vs 2bases situation, protoss will not move out the zealots and chrono out voidray, therefore zerg will adapt and still make a third they will try to save it from 6-8 zealots, Kiwi version is a faster one than Elfi one, without +1 attack, but zerg has to produce at least 20-25 lings to kill it off and they can kill the 3rd base which is pop up about this time pretty fast, 20-25 lings require tons of larva and they will not be able to produce drones, even IF protoss lose all the zealot to zergling without killing a third, zerg drones = equal protoss drones still or maybe a liite bit higher, remember protoss still produce probes nonstop in that harass off 2 nexus.
If zerg do not take a third but a roach warren instead, then ok, It is fair and square losing some zealot for a investment in roach is a lot too.
Anyway the build maybe a hole where zerg can take advantage of, however It can be a good build in the pocket of protoss FFE. Try to mix this build into some normal FFE in a BoX, they can caught zerg offguard a lot of time, and. double stargate can prevent later MUTA switch, which is metagame in korean ZvP now.
EDIT 2: TvZ is so good right now because the match up is so stable, which normally zerg do DRG build 2 bases lair then add banelings net + spire and a macro hatch, even NESTEA do that vs MMA and he revenge MMA already in Code S after the lost in Arena of Legend. Terran normally do reactor hellion into macro game with hellion deny creep and map control, but terran have so much build that they can go either bio mech or full mech in this match up.(If anyone see IM HAPPY play mech in TvZ in GSTL after 1.4 hellion nerf) This is a reason why Terran and zerg are so good right now in this match up, they know what to expect, they know every timing, they do not have to "Brainstorm" in a some clutch situation, which can be spent on APM and multitask. For example A terran scout no third, If no one have lost anything yet, he will expect a lair come at about 8 minute and mutas about 9.30- 10 mins, he will throw down the ebay at about 9 and turrets immediately after that so it come at the same time muta in middle of the map. Which is a default thing to do now for terran. (I do not know the exact timing, just an example here) So a good and stable match up is the way to go for me.
Anyway, SC2 is a great game, I wish It can get better, and skill of player in 4-5 years can be a WOW to sc broodwar player. I am a master protoss, recently playing an diamond Zerg account, I am planning to hit master with zerg then make a terran acc, to a point where I can play random on master. If anyone agree with me, thump up pls. No Flame pls
what kiwi did is extremely good imo. Most zerg wiill not get any gas until around 40 food, then 2 gas (or more). some will get the gas only for the speed. but if zerg got earlier gas, then he can't drone as much as he would like to
the zealots will hit at the time when zerg don't have gas for roaches and it will be really devastating to lose the quick third for zerg.
Here's what you said, so apply that to what I'm saying about ling speed and a third. Make sense?
The difference is that a hatch produces both income and production (which can be used for more drones for even more income). In my opinion that's why even what you may consider an insignificant delay it has more of a pronounced effect. But again matter of opinion.
Yes, I've said repeatedly that a 6:30 warren means zealots will be in your base on the standard large sized map, but that the roaches will pop well in time before your zealots do more than force me to pull drones or kills a spine. That's also to say I could just scout you, and get a 5:30 warren. And yes, actually, I'm popping 10 (20 is an exaggeration) roaches all simultaneously the second the warren pops because I will make an extra overlord and the second my injects pop on 4 hatches, they all become roaches. On creep. To kite your zealots forever.
See this is where the variation of the opening comes into play. IMO vs kiwi's version with no +1 weapons (which is scoutable by checking forge production), you should just defend with lings which you can trade economically with zealots w/ no upgrades. This allows you to simply wait for him to come, scout how many zealots he has, and then make the appropriate amount of lings and you can do it and not have to worry about roach warren timing at all.
What I'm currently doing (experimenting a lot, so I don't even know what's really optimal yet), I can be in your base ~7mins with 5 zealots and +1 weapons done. You would need roughly 30 lings to stop this force depending on where you engage me obviously, which is probably what I would do in this situation as zerg (again not a zerg player, but it seems like the best solution to me).
In this scenarion a 6:30 warren is too late because I would just kill your hatchery before your roaches pop if you don't have enough lings. A 5:30 warren would have roaches pop right as I hit your base. Then depending on the number of roaches I can engage or retreat. Why do you think I will let you kite my zealots on creep when I can just run away if it's not a beneficial engagement for me? If I retreat I basically forced an early warren and early roaches which is good from my perspective. This is all tangent if you are strictly talking about kiwi's version of course, but I find the discussion relevant.
Sigh... I'll look them up. I should remember because everytime I say 3 gate sentry expand is offensive and denies the third, and therefore is a really good build, I have Protoss who don't believe it.
Yeah that's probably because players who actually play Protoss know how hard and risky it is. Of course I'm not saying it's impossible, but the risk/reward ratio is way, way too high. Many times, depending on the map, when the protoss is able to kill the 3rd due to lots of FF usage, they get surrounded and their entire army gets wiped. In my eyes killing the 3rd but losing all your sentries is not a good trade and there isn't even a guarantee you will kill the 3rd in the first place.
Much more often you will just see the protoss player attempt to take a relatively fast 3rd in response, which is IMO much safer and just as effective if not moreso.
On October 10 2011 22:59 mazqo wrote: No. Baneling bust with 2 bases is autowin against this. Also 1 spine defending expansions you cant do anything with your zealots. And few roaches also counters these zealots hard.
you actually did not understand what the timing of that push is about. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-356-p1-controlling-game-flow-5618434 watch this episode of day9 about the build of Elfi did to idra, which is different but kind of similar to Kiwi build and also read my post above.
Game 1 on Metalopolis. It's not actually the best example - the map was extremely big (far spawns), and Minigun lolligagged a bit, but it's still an example showing that Zerg can't really hold a third. On big maps, I would say it's possible to take a third against 3 gate sentry expand, but you can definitely see at least the difficulty in this game.
actually this isnt the best example, his push wasnt the 3 gate sentry zealot push.
HERE we go. Finally. Before anyone tries to be a smartass, no I didn't find a million examples and just leave them out, it just took a while to find an actual game where P goes 3 gate expand and Zerg takes a fast third.
Plain and simple game. Zerg cannot hold a third against 3 gate sentry expand. Maybe on the largest of maps or farthest of positions you can or on maps with a tucked away third like Terminus, but in general, Zerg cannot hold a fast third against 3 gate sentry pressure. Yong went 3 gate sentry into forge/nexus, he didn't make a million gates, he pushed with what he made from 3 gates and did a ton of damage.
You can talk all day about the control or decision making, but it's quite clear in this game that Zerg cannot hold the third, whether Protoss kills a bunch of stuff and makes the third too taxing to have held, or actually kills the third, you just can't do it.
Well it does delay the third compared to a gasless third, that's just fact, but what you are saying is it doesn't delay it significantly. Ok that is just a matter of opinion. I explained what I consider a fast third (the gasless version) but again that's just a matter of opinion/perception.
Zerg won't delay getting the third if they got ling speed. They will delay other things, like drones and lair. They will still get a very, very fast third when they see FFE. It's not a matter of opinion. A 30 supply 3rd is super fast, and just because you got ling speed doesn't stop a Zerg from doing it. Now they may have 3 less drones, or may end up with a later lair, but it doesn't mean they will get that third later.
EDIT: and I do not know why this guy, Belial88 try to argue so much about kiwi build. Yes It is vulnerable to early roach, but with early roach, the zerg cant get a third base and then it will be 2bases vs 2bases situation, protoss will not move out the zealots and chrono out voidray, therefore zerg will adapt and still make a third they will try to save it from 6-8 zealots, Kiwi version is a faster one than Elfi one, without +1 attack, but zerg has to produce at least 20-25 lings to kill it off and they can kill the 3rd base which is pop up about this time pretty fast, 20-25 lings require tons of larva and they will not be able to produce drones, even IF protoss lose all the zealot to zergling without killing a third, zerg drones = equal protoss drones still or maybe a liite bit higher, remember protoss still produce probes nonstop in that harass off 2 nexus.
This 'belial guy' is not talking about early roach. I know you are Diamond Zerg, but quite frankly diamond level zerg don't know how to pull off a fast third and how to defend it properly against 2 base FFE all-ins.
A fast third Zerg isn't getting a fast roach warren. They get a roach warren at 6:30 as standard practice. Nestea, Losira, Check, they always get an evo chamber and a roach warren all of them between 6:30 to 6:50, with extremely little variation. As in consistently within 10 seconds of when they got them in any other game. My point is that the 2 gate FFE is vulnerable to NORMAL PLAY from Zerg, which is why I say it's a bad build.
Now if FFE 2 gate could not be held unless Zerg got a fast roach warren, that would mean it's a decent build. But that's the problem. FFE 2 gate is bad in the same way as, say, reactor hellion expand into rine/tank push into cloaked banshees is bad - Zerg is going to have lair and detection. FFE 2 gate is bad because every Zerg who went fast third will have a roach warren in time to laugh it off, and then go fucking kill you.
So please, avoid being snide. I'm not talking about early roach, I'm talking about normal roach. And also, losing 100% of your army in 14 zealots to kill a third is not at all worth it. And what you say about losing all zealots to zerglings while doing zero damage, not worth it at all.
Yes, units = no drones for Zerg, but Zerg has larva inject. If Protoss loses their entire army just to stop Zerg from droning up for 1 minute, it is not worth it at all.
the zealots will hit at the time when zerg don't have gas for roaches and it will be really devastating to lose the quick third for zerg.
Actually, they won't. And it's not as devastating to lose a quick third when you lose all your army. What's devastating for Zerg is losing drones, or an expansion without doing damage back. I'll let you kill my main if it means your 200/200 army dissapears and I get to keep all my drones. And Zerg will have enough gas.
The timing of this means that your zealots will be in my base the same time roach warrens pop. I will definitely have to pull drones, but that is why it's a big map and that is why I made 2 spines in anticipation. Then 10 roaches pop on creep, you die, and all you did was bring my hatch to the yellow.
What I'm currently doing (experimenting a lot, so I don't even know what's really optimal yet), I can be in your base ~7mins with 5 zealots and +1 weapons done. You would need roughly 30 lings to stop this force depending on where you engage me obviously, which is probably what I would do in this situation as zerg (again not a zerg player, but it seems like the best solution to me).
I will have scouted your double forge and gotten a 5:30 roach warren, and delayed you even more with a spine crawler. Or, I will make 2 spines to buy time, and with my 6:30 roach warren I will hold, barely, with a hatch in the yellow.
I think the best way to settle this is if we actually play. PM me and we can post how the timings and results worked out. Maybe the zealots do come too early, or maybe not.
EPT
