So as I was watching IPL in the Kiwi Vs. Stephano series I noticed that Kiwi did this really cool thing. In my eyes, he solved the big dilemma of the FFE, which is the zerg responds by taking a fast third because he feels safe. By the time any 2 base play comes out to pressure such an early third it gets crushed by the 3 base economy of the zerg (because it comes out too late). If a protoss player tries to get a fast third that can also usually be crushed by the zerg. Though sometimes a player can just go for a fast third and get away with it. However, such a play is a calculated risk and it is very hard to get away with against a good player.
But what kiwi did is he would chrono boost out 6 zealots from 2 gateways, and then get a core and all 4 gases at once. Then with these very quick 6 zealots he would walk over to the third base of the zerg and very easily deny it. He did this 2/3 games and the only reason why he didnt do it the 3rd game is because Stephano was prepared and intercepted all of the zealots and got a surround. Anyways, I think this opening has alot of potential and is just fucking amazing! The 6 zealots that you get out by the 7 min mark is early enough that it puts alot of pressure on the zerg and most zergs will not expect such fast pressure coming off of a FFE. However, I really dislike all of Kiwi's transitions out of this play. In 2/3 games he went double stargate (which I absolutely hate, as I only like stargate builds because they gain map control over the zerg, 2 stargates is just too much of an overcommitment for me) into a fairly early third. The second game however, he went for a very fast third as his 6 zealots were going to the third base of Stephano's.
Anyways, what do you think would be a good safe transition out of this amazing opening? I'm wary that many zergs will respond to their third getting denied by just all inning your front. Because of this I really only see two ways out of this opening Turtle on 2 bases: + Show Spoiler +
You could maybe go for a 6 gate after you have denied third? However, I'm wary that zerg will just instantly rebuild his third and your 6 gate will just die. However, I am not sure if such a 6 gate would come out later or earlier in relation to when the zerg gets up his third and thus it might succeed. However, maybe you could research +1 while the attack is happening, then because the 6 gate is so much later you will have a much better economy. The reason you would have such a stronger economy is because since the push would come out so much later in game time, you would have alot more probes because you never cut probes. Maybe you could spend 4-5 chronos on WG to get it out ASAP and then lay as 4-5 gateways down and do a +1 delayed 6-7 gate? The only reason I see this working is because you are able to chrono out the WG research done faster and get 6 gates out because of the fact that your economy can more easily support those 5 extra gateways.
Maybe you could go for a single stargate build? However any SG units will be so delayed so I don't know :/
This would put you waaay ahead of the zerg, but what if they just decide to 2 base bum rush you when they realize the situation? Maybe this would work if you could save your 6 zealots that you used to kill the hatch so you still have a good zealot force, and then cannoned the fuck out of your nat and third?
Anyways, I just wanted to bring this build to the attention of TL and I really hope that you guys could give me your thoughts on this play and what do you think is a viable followup.
Early roaches shut down those zealots way too easily. Once that happens, the game is literally over. This strategy relies upon zerg to not scout and assume he can drone for 5 minutes.
In general, it should be fairly easy to scout once this joins the "metagame" if you will. After scouting, at the very least it will force roaches out quicker, slowing down the eco significantly. It shouldn't be too hard to keep that third once you see chrono'd gates.
Also, chrono'd gate means less chrono'd probes, or warp gate. If the zerg gets 5 or so roach out in time I think it'd but the protoss back a fair way. Toss here are trading tech and midgame army.
All in all, I like it, but I don't know if it'd ever become standard.
In my opinion Stephano made a mistake by not scouting it, I think I read a thread not a while ago, about a '2 gate' after FFE. You can always scout it if there are 2 gates at the front, so its just bad from Stephano that he didn't react at all and thought he was safe.
Well I think in general this is a good response to a quick zerg third. If the zerg tries to bust you with you roaches, then you would just approach the game as you normally would.
i think FFE is just bad. any good zerg when seeing early forge can power out 20 drones a minute (2 queens, 2hatch) take a third and be 70drones vs 45probes. but of course every toss is doing it because no ones found anything better
i think ive found the future of earlygame ZvP and i plan to message saracen soon and play the bo3 with him to test the build and provide replays. but of course its dumb to say that because why havnt the top pro koreans started doing what im doing? so i dunno my winrate vs PvZ ever since i really started to get the matchup is like 100% and ill be facing grandmasters soon so i guess ill find out then how much it cna work
the future of earlygame ZvP is you need a build that most likely doesnt get a early forge, and cuts zero economy, and while cutting zero economy you put as much pressure as you can on the zerg to stop his droning.
i call the above paragraph the GOLDEN RULE of earlygame ZvP. any build you do must follow the GOLDEN RULE or its simply put bad and a good zerg should tear you apart
im sure many tosses think they following the golden rule. but most BO's that are gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing will normally cut probes at around 19 probes, not a good idea since your killing getting your final economy asap. also most gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing have the toss cutting his chronoboosts on his nexus after 15probes, also bad. by maxing out chronoboosts on your nexus and not cutting probes you can hit saturation much faster and have more economy. then, while maxing out your economy you put as much pressure as you can. im not saying gateway-expands are bad, im saying most of the time a protoss isnt following the golden rule and he is cutting some economy.
the above sounds easy and it is once you find a optimized build that follows the golden rule properly.
and ive found two builds follow the golden rule pretty well. im sure there are more builds that also follow the golden rule but i havnt explored everything yet and im sure 2 builds is a good start
and also toss pretty much only has two options when it comes to earlygame PvZ. either you go forge-expand or gateway-expand.
and i think forge first is just bad because of queens in sc2 letting a good zerg power out so much drones once he sees the forge
the golden rule basically simply means that you cut zero economy, and put as much pressure as you can while cutting no economy.
and most forge-expand builds actually do follow the golden rule. they usually never cut probes, the problem is i simply feel there are no "good" forge-expand builds because even if you try to follow the golden rule the forge-first is just too bad because of queen mechanics
i still havnt seen any good forge-expands that are "good". ive seen many forge expands follow the golden rule, but they still dont end up being "good".
i am open to the possibility that there are "good" forge expand builds out there, i just havent seen it yet. so pretty much im putting most of my research into gateway expand builds.
and so far ive found two gateway-expand builds that follow the golden rule and i feel are pretty good at having a equal early game with the zerg
heres the last game i played against zerg. i used a build thats pretty much a "zealot pressure expand" but it cuts no economy and your pretty much safe from any all-in from the zerg if you scout at 9pylon
This isn't really new, several threads have been posted advocating similar builds. I've also seen Minigun do similar builds several time on his stream.
forge FE into 2 gate pressure with a quick +1 has been written in numerous threads here, it's not that new. but gaining popularity as a quick void ray has essentially been solved.
several weeks ago idra even called it the "french canadian" protoss style, "forge FE into a silly zealot timing into something gay"
On October 10 2011 07:44 Easytouch wrote: The Problem With the FFE, the Transition.
So as I was watching IPL in the Kiwi Vs. Stephano series I noticed that Kiwi did this really cool thing. In my eyes, he solved the big dilemma of the FFE, which is the zerg responds by taking a fast third because he feels safe. By the time any 2 base play comes out to pressure such an early third it gets crushed by the 3 base economy of the zerg (because it comes out too late). If a protoss player tries to get a fast third that can also usually be crushed by the zerg. Though sometimes a player can just go for a fast third and get away with it. However, such a play is a calculated risk and it is very hard to get away with against a good player.
But what kiwi did is he would chrono boost out 6 zealots from 2 gateways, and then get a core and all 4 gases at once. Then with these very quick 6 zealots he would walk over to the third base of the zerg and very easily deny it. He did this 2/3 games and the only reason why he didnt do it the 3rd game is because Stephano was prepared and intercepted all of the zealots and got a surround. Anyways, I think this opening has alot of potential and is just fucking amazing! The 6 zealots that you get out by the 7 min mark is early enough that it puts alot of pressure on the zerg and most zergs will not expect such fast pressure coming off of a FFE. However, I really dislike all of Kiwi's transitions out of this play. In 2/3 games he went double stargate (which I absolutely hate, as I only like stargate builds because they gain map control over the zerg, 2 stargates is just too much of an overcommitment for me) into a fairly early third. The second game however, he went for a very fast third as his 6 zealots were going to the third base of Stephano's.
Anyways, what do you think would be a good safe transition out of this amazing opening? I'm wary that many zergs will respond to their third getting denied by just all inning your front. Because of this I really only see two ways out of this opening Turtle on 2 bases: + Show Spoiler +
You could maybe go for a 6 gate after you have denied third? However, I'm wary that zerg will just instantly rebuild his third and your 6 gate will just die. However, I am not sure if such a 6 gate would come out later or earlier in relation to when the zerg gets up his third and thus it might succeed. However, maybe you could research +1 while the attack is happening, then because the 6 gate is so much later you will have a much better economy. The reason you would have such a stronger economy is because since the push would come out so much later in game time, you would have alot more probes because you never cut probes. Maybe you could spend 4-5 chronos on WG to get it out ASAP and then lay as 4-5 gateways down and do a +1 delayed 6-7 gate? The only reason I see this working is because you are able to chrono out the WG research done faster and get 6 gates out because of the fact that your economy can more easily support those 5 extra gateways.
Maybe you could go for a single stargate build? However any SG units will be so delayed so I don't know :/
This would put you waaay ahead of the zerg, but what if they just decide to 2 base bum rush you when they realize the situation? Maybe this would work if you could save your 6 zealots that you used to kill the hatch so you still have a good zealot force, and then cannoned the fuck out of your nat and third?
Anyways, I just wanted to bring this build to the attention of TL and I really hope that you guys could give me your thoughts on this play and what do you think is a viable followup.
Therefore, the only part missing is 1 queen, or a zealot and a a probe worth of an army Since at this juncture in the game, you don't have warp gate tech to neutralize logistical disadvantage, in theory they have more than enough time to deflect/defend any "punishing" you have in mind.
The main strength of FFE is really the option for a fast +1 or +2 while safely getting a 2nd base faster than you normally can afford to do so.
There is no real "weakness" that you can punish the Zerg for per se.
I should of course clarify that a fast +1 is normally good for zealots which doesn't present much of a threat with the availability of roaches. +2 is usually reserved for stalkers, hence the resurgence of heavy blink stalker play a few months back esp from China.
Pretty much, yeah. I personally prefer this variation because it makes your zealots ludicrously cost-effective against zerglings with the correct micro.
I also like the idea of getting the robo for two reasons:
a) You get warp prisms for further harass at the third/main b) The availability of immortals makes it safer against roach pushes (although you should be fine with cannons anyway).
Therefore, the only part missing is 1 queen, or a zealot and a a probe worth of an army Since at this juncture in the game, you don't have warp gate tech to neutralize logistical disadvantage, in theory they have more than enough time to deflect/defend any "punishing" you have in mind.
The main strength of FFE is really the option for a fast +1 or +2 while safely getting a 2nd base faster than you normally can afford to do so.
There is no real "weakness" that you can punish the Zerg for per se.
I should of course clarify that a fast +1 is normally good for zealots which doesn't present much of a threat with the availability of roaches. +2 is usually reserved for stalkers, hence the resurgence of heavy blink stalker play a few months back esp from China.
Sure, this works in theory, but the fact of the matter is most zergs will just drone their dicks off when they see a FFE. The only way to effectively stop the punishment is too make enough combat units of their own. Even if they did so and nullified your zealot push you would still have forced alot of non-drones out of larva. The 6 zealots are effective as proved by Kiwikaki. However I do understand that if this became "standard" then it could be very easily countered.
On October 10 2011 07:52 Micket wrote: Early roaches shut down those zealots way too easily. Once that happens, the game is literally over. This strategy relies upon zerg to not scout and assume he can drone for 5 minutes.
On October 10 2011 07:56 BrahCJ wrote: In general, it should be fairly easy to scout once this joins the "metagame" if you will. After scouting, at the very least it will force roaches out quicker, slowing down the eco significantly. It shouldn't be too hard to keep that third once you see chrono'd gates.
Also, chrono'd gate means less chrono'd probes, or warp gate. If the zerg gets 5 or so roach out in time I think it'd but the protoss back a fair way. Toss here are trading tech and midgame army.
All in all, I like it, but I don't know if it'd ever become standard.
I disagree that roaches would stop the push. The goal of the zealots is not to fight with units, it is to kill the hatchery. Yes roaches counter zealots in the fact that in a straight up battle the roaches would kill the zealots, but I don't think roaches would stop this push. This is because of the fact that roaches have a much much lower ratio of DPS/Resources ratio. For the zerg to counter this push they must either kill the zealots before they get to the hatch (as seen in game 3) or they have to kill the zealots AT the hatch. Roaches definitely would cost alot more to kill the zealots at the hatch because it would cost 3x more to do the same dps to the zealots.
Roaches would nullify the threat of the zealots if they intercepted zealots in the middle of the map, but lings could just do the same thing.
What kiwikaki did is essentially a 2 gate. He just went FFE first, so it was basically delayed by a good 1-2 minutes in exchange for +1 and more zealots.
It's not really a good build, for the same reason 2 gate is a bad build. It can definitely catch Zerg off guard, but any amount of scouting (seeing 2 gates, having an overlord in front of the base, seeing late gas or chronos on 2 gates) will deny it with roaches or speedlings + spines. While zealots are great against roaches when it's medium numbers vs medium numbers, not when Zerg is being defensive on creep.
Most Zerg go super fast third and get the roach warren around 6:30-6:45. The timing of this FFE 2 gate means that Zerg can actually get enough roaches to hold. With a 6:45 roach warren, you will have a larva inject of roaches popping out the second the zealots arrive in your base. This is assuming you didn't scout at all.
edit: It is, however, a decent transition into a super heavy tech all-in, like double stargate, archons, or double robo. The pressure from this build forces a huge cut in drones, and will result in Protoss with a worker lead. While usually Zerg will just kill you with the 4-8 roaches left over, they don't have many drones to reinforce and usually will prefer to make workers instead, allowing for Protoss to take an uncontested third, or take out a Zerg with heavy tech before they have lair.
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
Edit: And 3gate expo eco is very different from FFE where you can adapt your nexus, cannon, and forge timings depending on what you scout.
The benefit of FFE is that it's not only a great FE but it's incredibly safe. 1 gate expo is much much more unsafe because what would you have when the zerg just figures out he can fucking kill you, makes 30 lings like the poster above said and you have 2 zealots?
Therefore, the only part missing is 1 queen, or a zealot and a a probe worth of an army Since at this juncture in the game, you don't have warp gate tech to neutralize logistical disadvantage, in theory they have more than enough time to deflect/defend any "punishing" you have in mind.
The main strength of FFE is really the option for a fast +1 or +2 while safely getting a 2nd base faster than you normally can afford to do so.
There is no real "weakness" that you can punish the Zerg for per se.
I should of course clarify that a fast +1 is normally good for zealots which doesn't present much of a threat with the availability of roaches. +2 is usually reserved for stalkers, hence the resurgence of heavy blink stalker play a few months back esp from China.
Sure, this works in theory, but the fact of the matter is most zergs will just drone their dicks off when they see a FFE. The only way to effectively stop the punishment is too make enough combat units of their own. Even if they did so and nullified your zealot push you would still have forced alot of non-drones out of larva. The 6 zealots are effective as proved by Kiwikaki. However I do understand that if this became "standard" then it could be very easily countered.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't trolling with your low post count.
1) Getting a third base in a direct and immediate reaction to FFE is in no way the same as getting a fast third and then overdroning. The former is a superset of the latter. Either you are addressing exclusively the latter and need to form your argument better or you are addressing the former and then theory becomes more important than specific scenarios that are subsets and not indicative of the entire set.
2) The speed (or more easily understood, the lack of speed) of zealots mean that they are not the ideal units for "punishing" overdroning. The overall cost of Stalkers and the high gas cost of Sentries mean that they are not ideal Zerg units. This is the reason for what was the emerging and shifting metagame to Phoenixes and Voidrays a few months back. But as Zergs have learned to adapt the metagame is shifting back to Colossi based 2/1 timing attacks. Hence the primary concern of Protosses is the lack of a unit for map control. Your concerns with overdroning are not unique. Your approach has already been considered and very quickly and obviously rejected. (And a side note if you're newer and go down the line, BW references of +1 zlot timing attacks aren't very good because they didn't have the roach, the ultimate antizealot unit. And unit counters were much softer in BW, meaning micro was often > unit counters. Think Marine vs Bling style engagements rather than Colossi vs Marine. It's part of what made the game great but that's another argument.)
Since your zealots have no speed, you are playing a game of hope. I hope the Zerg doesn't have any larvae ready in time for this pressure. I hope the Zerg doesn't have enough map control. I hope the Zerg overdroned. Sure a "hope" style of thinking can and will win you games. But if you really want to have a true discussion where you approach the highest level of play, it is preferable to close in on actually stable strategies.
This is a good build in the sense that it puts pressure on the zerg before the 9-10 minute mark when traditional 2 base protoss attacks happen. It will punish greedy zergs who see a forge and just assume that they can drone nonstop for the first 8 minutes. Even for zergs who are a bit better prepared, it changes the early game PvZ dynamic and can still put the protoss in a better economic position due to the zerg having to spend early larva on units and not just drones. However, like all builds (and there are others as well that can put this kind of pressure on the zerg off a FFE before 8 minutes), it's scoutable and counterable, and I wouldn't call it "the future of FFE."
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
i like the strat but obviously any semi early roaches shut this down. it's just frustrating as a protoss because at the prolevel the zerg can more easily take a 4th base than a protoss can take a third when the protoss is going to try and play a macro game off a forge fast expand. I also have seen many zergs jump way ahead when protoss try to expand off 1 base play. It just seems like protoss feel like they can't keep up with a macroing zerg in the mid game with because there aren't many effective "light pressure builds" that will slow the zerg down. Almost every game i see the protoss falls about 20 supply behind the zerg as they hit 80-120 supply (obviously some of this is that roaches are 2 supply). It might be more of a map thing where giving protoss maps where with an easily defendable third might help but I think Korean protoss are going to continue to struggle in the near future because they haven't found a way to play a safe macro game without falling way behind in the mid game because of how quickly the zerg can build up their economy with larva injects. At the end of the day i don't see stargate builds, dts builds, gateway timings being the answer and I think robo tech tech takes far too long to develop not to mention that it can be easily countered if the zerg sees early collusus or imortals coming.
I would love to see more macro games in P v Z as a protoss player but in the current metagame protoss don't feel like that gives them the best chance of winning so my guess is that two base gateway timings will be the standard for the foreseeable future. My hope is that protoss can find a better way to transition out this gateway timing or be more effective at killing the zerg's third base with the timing (although i think the latter is unlikely with the fact that zerg players are going to continue to get better at finding protoss proxy pylons as the game evolves and if the protoss have to warp in from further away it makes it much easier for zergs to stop the push). I hope i'm wrong but i feel like protoss are trapped at the moment into doing timing attacks because it's a better option than trying to macro with a zerg.
On October 10 2011 09:23 Anihc wrote: This is a good build in the sense that it puts pressure on the zerg before the 9-10 minute mark when traditional 2 base protoss attacks happen. It will punish greedy zergs who see a forge and just assume that they can drone nonstop for the first 8 minutes. Even for zergs who are a bit better prepared, it changes the early game PvZ dynamic and can still put the protoss in a better economic position due to the zerg having to spend early larva on units and not just drones. However, like all builds (and there are others as well that can put this kind of pressure on the zerg off a FFE before 8 minutes), it's scoutable and counterable, and I wouldn't call it "the future of FFE."
true, I mispoke when saying its the future of FFE. If this become common in the metagame many zergs would just recognize the second gateway and respond appropriately.
I personally like the 2gate pressure with Zealots, but I think it comes too late from Forge FE. Lately I've been going 2gate pressure (gateways at the natural, 13/14 or 13/15, can't recall), into Nexus, or if they go one base Roach I cut Zealots and drop a forge then Nexus). I've had some pretty damn good results with it lately, dying a few times to extremely hyper aggressive Zergs but I also die to Roach/Ling timing attacks when going forge FE so it's hardly different. Just need to scout more.
On October 10 2011 09:34 OgsStump wrote: i like the strat but obviously any semi early roaches shut this down. it's just frustrating as a protoss because at the prolevel the zerg can more easily take a 4th base than a protoss can take a third when the protoss is going to try and play a macro game off a forge fast expand. I also have seen many zergs jump way ahead when protoss try to expand off 1 base play. It just seems like protoss feel like they can't keep up with a macroing zerg in the mid game with because there aren't many effective "light pressure builds" that will slow the zerg down. Almost every game i see the protoss falls about 20 supply behind the zerg as they hit 80-120 supply (obviously some of this is that roaches are 2 supply). It might be more of a map thing where giving protoss maps where with an easily defendable third might help but I think Korean protoss are going to continue to struggle in the near future because they haven't found a way to play a safe macro game without falling way behind in the mid game because of how quickly the zerg can build up their economy with larva injects. At the end of the day i don't see stargate builds, dts builds, gateway timings being the answer and I think robo tech tech takes far too long to develop not to mention that it can be easily countered if the zerg sees early collusus or imortals coming.
I would love to see more macro games in P v Z as a protoss player but in the current metagame protoss don't feel like that gives them the best chance of winning so my guess is that two base gateway timings will be the standard for the foreseeable future. My hope is that protoss can find a better way to transition out this gateway timing or be more effective at killing the zerg's third base with the timing (although i think the latter is unlikely with the fact that zerg players are going to continue to get better at finding protoss proxy pylons as the game evolves and if the protoss have to warp in from further away it makes it much easier for zergs to stop the push). I hope i'm wrong but i feel like protoss are trapped at the moment into doing timing attacks because it's a better option than trying to macro with a zerg.
I actually really agree with pretty much everything you're saying.
There's a ticking timebomb that you need to win or gain a significant advantage by. You either rely on fairly easily scoutable and deflectable pressures of [+2]blink stalkers, pheonix/vr, +1 zealots, 5 zealot opener, or you play for an 1 or 2base allin before broodlord/infestor 4-5+ bases.
If I played game designer for a second, I think a simple combo change, DTs being available from Templar archives and removing shrine, would go a long way towards fixing this. The issue with these buildings isn't the cost but the timing. If you go DTs, you simply won't have storms for an effective defense. If you go HT, you don't have DTs at that time for harass. It's the time value of the cost that really hinders PvZ imo. Imagine if you could deny overseers with pheonixes and have DTs denying every chance for a zerg fourth while having storms at home and being completely safe to max slower than a zerg but safely get a third..
Iirc, without corsair + reaver/DT, PvZ is the same nightmare in BW that it is today. While zealots were worse vs lings then, there were no roaches to hard counter either.
Random note, is Colossi: Prism/Colossiable like Reaver/Shuttle in PvZ? I think I've only seen Prism/Immo but not Prism/Colossi + pheonix.
Luckily I'm a T main and I can rely on my Marine Tank Medivac midgame to gain a strong advantage.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
since the zerg always responds to early zealots with roaches, how about double robo immortals instead of double stargate void rays? Then you can easily transition to colossus if hydras come out, which is something double stargate cannot do
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
On October 10 2011 10:01 YoyoDevo wrote: since the zerg always responds to early zealots with roaches, how about double robo immortals instead of double stargate void rays? Then you can easily transition to colossus if hydras come out, which is something double stargate cannot do
Slings. Lots of them. Playing to outtech switch vs Zergs is like trying to race Usain Bolt in a sprint. They have better tools for that game.
*** FFE has slow AA so they have plenty, I mean plenty of time, to just see what you're doing and dronewave until the last possible second and then have just enough to defend and overwhelm.
This was another small reason why SGate was so popular a followup to FFE.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
Edit: And 3gate expo eco is very different from FFE where you can adapt your nexus, cannon, and forge timings depending on what you scout.
I know it sounds like I'm saying the FFE isn't viable, it is, I just hate when people assert that using 3 gate expo or 1 gate tech expo is some kind of cheese... like a normal 1 gate tech opener can't win in a macro game... like a Protoss simply can't keep up in econ with such an opening. The problem with the "forge fe timings" are that in a LARGE portion of the games you play you won't scout the Zerg first, and so won't know when early pool will out right kill you, so if you don't scout the Zerg by 13 supply you simply HAVE to 13 forge... while also taking the econ hit of NOT spending your chronoboosts so early... the early chronoboosts are the biggest snowballs to begin with...
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
Edit: And 3gate expo eco is very different from FFE where you can adapt your nexus, cannon, and forge timings depending on what you scout.
I know it sounds like I'm saying the FFE isn't viable, it is, I just hate when people assert that using 3 gate expo or 1 gate tech expo is some kind of cheese... like a normal 1 gate tech opener can't win in a macro game... like a Protoss simply can't keep up in econ with such an opening. The problem with the "forge fe timings" are that in a LARGE portion of the games you play you won't scout the Zerg first, and so won't know when early pool will out right kill you, so if you don't scout the Zerg by 13 supply you simply HAVE to 13 forge... while also taking the econ hit of NOT spending your chronoboosts so early... the early chronoboosts are the biggest snowballs to begin with...
I consider 1g expo PvZ cheese.
3gexpo and FFE PvZ aren't ofc.
This is from someone who almost exclusively 1g expos PvT.
On October 10 2011 10:01 YoyoDevo wrote: since the zerg always responds to early zealots with roaches, how about double robo immortals instead of double stargate void rays? Then you can easily transition to colossus if hydras come out, which is something double stargate cannot do
Slings. Lots of them. Playing to outtech switch vs Zergs is like trying to race Usain Bolt in a sprint. They have better tools for that game.
*** FFE has slow AA so they have plenty, I mean plenty of time, to just see what you're doing and dronewave until the last possible second and then have just enough to defend and overwhelm.
This was another small reason why SGate was so popular a followup to FFE.
okay so then you get colossi. With void rays you can get slings too but in that case, the slings are better vs void rays.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me.
Let's retry
Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus.
I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
An FFE plan can easily become a nexus first, just saying. When I FFE on 2 player maps, I 9 scout (as everyone should, for every PvZ strat), and if there is a late pool build I will nexus first and be ahead economically, if only by a little.
Just thought I should throw this in as a counter to those thinking the FFE isn't as economic as possible.
On October 10 2011 10:19 xlava wrote: An FFE plan can easily become a nexus first, just saying. When I FFE on 2 player maps, I 9 scout (as everyone should, for every PvZ strat), and if there is a late pool build I will nexus first and be ahead economically, if only by a little.
Yes. The entire point of FFE is you can adjust timings of each building and be very safe in the immediate and relatively immediate future.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
Allow me to put in my two sense... First of all, 1 gate expand, and forge fast expand is 100% preference. Just as any other variation of build or decision we make in the game, as a gamer you are balancing risk and reward. Not everyone says "I am going to 1g expand on every map no matter what" and not everyone says "I am going to ffe on every map no matter what". This is a preference you choose based off of the map you are playing on, the information you gather from scouting, and any previous experiences you may have had.
If you know zerg can put a specific amount of pressure on you and force a worker pull, is the lost mining time worth the nexus building a half a min sooner? And this goes for everyone, just because someone does not do the same build you do, doesn't make it wrong. Builds should be reactions to what your opponent is doing, not written in stone. Same goes with unit composition, personally 2/3 of the time I go 1g expand I build zealot stalker, not zealot sentry sentry.
Also, in broodwar the concept or metagame was that if zerg went for an early pool, they would be behind economically. The more larvae they put into zerglings the less they have for drones, and thus the snowball effect would hurt them in the mid game. In starcraft 2 however, there is one offset, the queen. The sooner the zerg finish a pool, the quicker they can produce a queen, and with larvae injects, the queen acts like a macro hatch. Have you ever been 6 pooled and after finally finishing off the zerglings, you press forward for a counter attack and realize your opponent is on 2 fully saturated bases?
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me.
Let's retry
Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus.
I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing.
no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well.
The thing is, if FFE is bad, sentry expand is worse. Zerg can play identically against sentry expand that they can play against FFE, the only difference is your expo comes up two minutes later. With FFE you get cannons first, then sentries. With sentry expand you just get sentries, then cannons. You can't skip cannons with a sentry expand or you just lose to a ling counter if you ever leave your base.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me.
Let's retry
Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus.
I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing.
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
On October 10 2011 11:04 Xequecal wrote: The thing is, if FFE is bad, sentry expand is worse. Zerg can play identically against sentry expand that they can play against FFE, the only difference is your expo comes up two minutes later. With FFE you get cannons first, then sentries. With sentry expand you just get sentries, then cannons. You can't skip cannons with a sentry expand or you just lose to a ling counter if you ever leave your base.
Actually 3gate sentry expo is about as safe as you can possibly be. You will be very safe moving out with 3+ WGs of reinforcements, unlike FFE/1g expo. Or if you think sentries are immobile vs slings, let me know how well you can "move out" with your cannons.
On October 10 2011 11:03 SoKHo wrote: no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well.
A competent zerg player can just kill your fast third. The difference between a zerg expansion and a toss expansion is the fact that the zerg can use his expo for offence. When he sees you take a fast third he won't be behind because he got a fast third , he can utilize the larvae from that third to just fucking kill you. When you get a third you don't get any units from it, you will have an incredibly small gateway force and a competent zerg will kill you.
From the comments it just seems the majority of the people who posted so far are completely theorycrafting and never really gave a 2-gate opening out of FFE a hard look.
If the zerg goes for a fast 3rd you will do damage if you micro correctly and no, roaches will not be out in time. The build order is very tight but you can hit their 3rd around 7 mins with initial 3-5 zealots w/ +1 weapons finishing (I prefer +1 as you get an earlier gas, and it leads to stronger faster +2 and +3 follow-up timings). You drone non-stop behind the push and even if they save their hatch you likely are ahead on workers.
Some tips for people trying this: -Try to keep your initial probe scout alive, and scout ~5-6 min mark for a fast 3rd. If there's no fast 3rd try to sneak in his main. This is right around the time his roaches will pop from a 2-base roachling all-in and should give you enough of a heads up to make 2-3 more cannons at your front.
-If you scout the 3rd truck your zealots over. I usually make my core ASAP after my first gate pops, then grab my 2nd gas and throw down my robo and add 4 gates as I move out (you can also expand at this point on certain maps, but throwing down 4 gates is a lot safer). The robo is a very strong transition IMO because early on your threat is mostly roaches so it gives you earlier access to immortals. But most importantly, warp prism harass becomes 20x more effective when they are 3 bases.
-If there's no 3rd and you scout probe couldn't get into his main, try just sending your initial zealots out before +1 finishes, clear watchtowers and spot the main attack path. You have to be very wary of a roachling all-in and you want as much of a heads up as possible to make those additional cannons. And no, roaches won't shut down your zealot play simply because at this point in the game they will have roach speed and your zealots can simply run away to the safety of cannons. If you see a ton of lings at this point in the game chances are very high he is attempting a baneling bust. Get a 2nd gas up and make cannons and sentries ASAP.
-If he's on 2-base and you only see a handful of lings as defense then that means they are going either mutas or infestors. Generally I just follow noumena's guide and still attempt to harass since you should hit them before the first wave of mutas or infestors pop with a bunch of +1/+1 zealots. This buys you time to prepare for whichever tech he chooses. Actually though teching to HT at this point can be done blind since it counters both mutas and infestors.
The opener is in no way "gimmicky" or relies on your opponent not scouting your 2 gates, chrono on forge, etc, and is a great way to punish and keep a zerg honest out of a FFE. If done correctly you will either do a ton of damage or be ahead on workers if they grabbed a fast 3rd.
I've seen a few top tier players do this. And sometimes it just falls apart when the Zerg sees incoming and produces enough army to surround/chase down those zealots. A big counter attack would come and all of a sudden the protoss seems to be rely only on FF and cannons to barely survive, if not straight up lose the game.
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote: OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me.
Let's retry
Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus.
I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing.
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Oh cute, the copy and paste button, Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Lets see if you catch on too.
On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote: [quote]
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me.
Let's retry
Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus.
I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing.
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Oh cute, the copy and paste button, Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Lets see if you catch on too.
The entire point is you can't "fake a 1g expo" with a ling sitting there watching. Then it's not faking it. The Zerg will see that you never expo and instead decided to gift 75 minerals.
If you see a gas opening by Zerg, as P, 1 gate expand isn't the safest. Consider getting forge before expanding.
Also, and this is map dependent, make nexus, then get forge going, or 2 more gateways after throwing nexus down. You will be fine, you will not lose the nexus. You will force a cancel, but Protoss will be ahead in workers and with the 2 extra gateways made, you will have an army to protect the nexus.
I think 3 gate expand is better, but if you go 1 gate expand or 2 gate expand, you will not be behind if have to cancel, even if you have to cancel a few times.
Buildings under the ramp is not safe.
no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well.
This is really map dependent, but that'd be very hard to hold without Colossi or units. I think it was the games where Genius went FFE-1gatecyber-Colossi, but of course he did it because it worked before for him so...
I don't think the 'counter' is a fast third for Toss. Toss goes FFE, Zerg takes fast third, and the game is off from there.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
There is either reading comp fail by you or comm fail by me.
Let's retry
Suppose PvZ 1 gate expo, wallin above ramp. As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Suppose PvZ 1g expo, buildings under ramp As Zerg, I would: + Show Spoiler +
See 1g expo, see gas timings, delay my hatch but 14/14 as normal, make 4 slings, run into your base and be annoying but not really engage. Keep pumping lings and overlords, only getting my nat expo when I have 300 mins extra. The whole time, I will completely ignore your nat nexus.
I simply don't see 1gate expos as being very viable in PvZ with the current 2FF wide nat entrance/ramp naturals. If they made 4hex nat entrances then i'd 1gateexpo and feel safe.
Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Just like a forge fast expand can go with a forge first or a nexus first depending on the gas and pool timings. If you think my 1g expand is not safe then it is up to you to exploit that, but know that I made that decision based off of what I think you are capable of doing.
See 1g expo with core, drone drill to see # and timings of gas(es). flit around a bit and fly home. Get my 14/14/21 going, make only 2 lings to confirm nexus, then time the rest to be there when nexus finishes (depends on spawns). You will not get a cancel, you will simply lose your 400 minerals from not having enough units and playing so greedily a minor adjustment from the standard build is enough to crush you. I will: kill nexus, kill your 4 units, kill a few probes, and camp the bottom of your ramp. I will make 1.5 drone waves and reinforce my lings to feel comfortable with a 4-6 unit pushout to clearout of your nat. I will then get upgrades, get a few tech buildings, keep reinforcing my army, and send in an overlord from a side. As soon as you move out in enough force to clear out my force camping your nat, I will take my third if I feel like you are trying to expo or mass more units if I think it's an allin. I have: peon advantage, base advantage, tech advantage, and production advantage.
Oh cute, the copy and paste button, Understand that everyone adapts and reacts based off of what they scout (as you have clearly demonstrated). A 1g expo for example could very easily transition into a 3g expo if the protoss does not feel safe with the information they gather from your base. Lets see if you catch on too.
The entire point is you can't "fake a 1g expo" with a ling sitting there watching. Then it's not faking it. The Zerg will see that you never expo and instead decided to gift 75 minerals.
No one said anything about 'faking an expansion' either I scout your build and decide it is safe to 1g expo or I don't, whether you scout it or not does not matter. It is not like a 'dark shrine' where I feel as if I must be sneaky about it. If I know it is safe to do so I will. Stating that one build is clearly better then another is ignorant, you are proving nothing by assuming protoss will not react/adapt to what you are doing.
I love this style! I've been doing different variants of it and I think it really lets you take an early third with no problem, here's a replay of me against a 1600 master zerg if anyones interested. obviously i'm no kiwikaki but I see how this style could have tons of viability, I accidentally cancelled my mothership I think twice in this game it felt like I had way to many probes, but nonetheless, maybe this can be made into a solid opening.
On October 10 2011 11:03 SoKHo wrote: no, the only reason this works is if they are caught off guard, it's really gimmicky. The counter to a fast third base is a fast third for toss as well.
A competent zerg player can just kill your fast third. The difference between a zerg expansion and a toss expansion is the fact that the zerg can use his expo for offence. When he sees you take a fast third he won't be behind because he got a fast third , he can utilize the larvae from that third to just fucking kill you. When you get a third you don't get any units from it, you will have an incredibly small gateway force and a competent zerg will kill you.
uggh, I don't mean a fast third at 8:00. I mean a fast third as in 10:00. They can't just straight up kill you. Get fast collosus with sentry and defend.
Like all my posts, I'm not a pro, but here's my ideas
This isn't an entirely new opening. Kiwi is just twisting it another creative way. there are a few guides like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259635 that use this kind of opening in a variety of ways. I've seen a fast single zealot to get an early scout to 4-5 zealots with a +1 attack and now kiwis 6 zealot no attack upgrade. This opening is full of awesome because it is letting you put pressure on the zerg yes, but it also lets you see wtf he's doing since ffe doesn't give you much map control past your ramp usually. If you run those in and they run into roaches on creep and can't escape, then you just found out that zealot/archon isn't the greatest choice. If they run into mass ling and infestors or don't find a 3rd from zerg, probably shouldn't take a fast 3rd yourself because that stupid infested terran bust might be coming.
Kiwi transitioning out of this opening with double stargate is alright, but only depending on what he scouts from zerg. Day9 just did a daily even on why you do such things. If you open fast zealots whats zerg going to have? probably some form of anti-ground unit based army. So now if i fly in with a bunch of phoenix (or voidray) I have air and you have anti-ground and I can exploit you in some way. Also if you go stargate and he goes and all ins you, you have void rays instead of ground stuff to fight the stuff that can't shoot up! :D
I play Z in masters, and I have come against this early 2 gate zealot after forge attack probably 10 times. Because I am good about scouting their front, it's easy for me to see chrono on the gates and make a bunch of lings in time to hold this off without losing any drones/queens/hatches. I've never actually had a game where this killed a hatch. Yes, it forced lings instead of drones but I don't think it's worth it for the protoss. People are wrong in saying roaches are the counter because nobody would ever get roaches that fast while going for the fast 3rd. I think most people don't start the roach warren until their lair has begun.
This isn't exactly new, I've done this in FFE PvZ for quite some time. It doesn't work all of the time, but it's definately more than 50% of the times. 8 zealots with +1 can deny a third, kill a ton of drones and lings, and regardless at least force the zerg to make a ton of lings instead of drones. It's hard for this timing not to be cost efficient. The only think this really fails to is roaches with a bit of kiting, but then again, you've at least forced him to make some really fast roaches instead of drones.
Regardless, this is probably worth the investment 80% of the time or so. Strongly recommend it.
On October 10 2011 08:07 roymarthyup wrote: i think FFE is just bad. any good zerg when seeing early forge can power out 20 drones a minute (2 queens, 2hatch) take a third and be 70drones vs 45probes. but of course every toss is doing it because no ones found anything better
i think ive found the future of earlygame ZvP and i plan to message saracen soon and play the bo3 with him to test the build and provide replays. but of course its dumb to say that because why havnt the top pro koreans started doing what im doing? so i dunno my winrate vs PvZ ever since i really started to get the matchup is like 100% and ill be facing grandmasters soon so i guess ill find out then how much it cna work
the future of earlygame ZvP is you need a build that most likely doesnt get a early forge, and cuts zero economy, and while cutting zero economy you put as much pressure as you can on the zerg to stop his droning.
i call the above paragraph the GOLDEN RULE of earlygame ZvP. any build you do must follow the GOLDEN RULE or its simply put bad and a good zerg should tear you apart
im sure many tosses think they following the golden rule. but most BO's that are gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing will normally cut probes at around 19 probes, not a good idea since your killing getting your final economy asap. also most gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing have the toss cutting his chronoboosts on his nexus after 15probes, also bad. by maxing out chronoboosts on your nexus and not cutting probes you can hit saturation much faster and have more economy. then, while maxing out your economy you put as much pressure as you can. im not saying gateway-expands are bad, im saying most of the time a protoss isnt following the golden rule and he is cutting some economy.
the above sounds easy and it is once you find a optimized build that follows the golden rule properly.
and ive found two builds follow the golden rule pretty well. im sure there are more builds that also follow the golden rule but i havnt explored everything yet and im sure 2 builds is a good start
and also toss pretty much only has two options when it comes to earlygame PvZ. either you go forge-expand or gateway-expand.
and i think forge first is just bad because of queens in sc2 letting a good zerg power out so much drones once he sees the forge
the golden rule basically simply means that you cut zero economy, and put as much pressure as you can while cutting no economy.
and most forge-expand builds actually do follow the golden rule. they usually never cut probes, the problem is i simply feel there are no "good" forge-expand builds because even if you try to follow the golden rule the forge-first is just too bad because of queen mechanics
i still havnt seen any good forge-expands that are "good". ive seen many forge expands follow the golden rule, but they still dont end up being "good".
i am open to the possibility that there are "good" forge expand builds out there, i just havent seen it yet. so pretty much im putting most of my research into gateway expand builds.
and so far ive found two gateway-expand builds that follow the golden rule and i feel are pretty good at having a equal early game with the zerg
heres the last game i played against zerg. i used a build thats pretty much a "zealot pressure expand" but it cuts no economy and your pretty much safe from any all-in from the zerg if you scout at 9pylon
Just have watched your replay.. Did you ever hear of warpgate reasearch ? Your reactions were sloppy that game. Really pain to watch tbh. Aside of the awesomness when mommaship comes in. There wasnt anything too good.. Your expo could be earlier down if you didnt make too many zealots - and you didnt have to make those preemptively to be able to defend if you didnt forget to make WPG. Idea is good however you have a long way to get the proper timings down
It only have worked this far as Kiwikaki is basicly only one doing this at pro level, soon as pros adapt for it they have like 5 roaches just shutting down those zealots easily
On October 10 2011 18:13 Roynalf wrote: It only have worked this far as Kiwikaki is basicly only one doing this at pro level, soon as pros adapt for it they have like 5 roaches just shutting down those zealots easily
No. This is a common and known build at the pro level. Elfi did it to IdrA at IEM China when they played in the group stage. (as just one other example)
It's easily dealt with if its scouted.
It's almost impossible to win if its dealt with.
It's a decent opener, and it's quite good if you can hide it, but it's really quite hard to hide it.
On October 10 2011 08:07 roymarthyup wrote: i think FFE is just bad. any good zerg when seeing early forge can power out 20 drones a minute (2 queens, 2hatch) take a third and be 70drones vs 45probes. but of course every toss is doing it because no ones found anything better
i think ive found the future of earlygame ZvP and i plan to message saracen soon and play the bo3 with him to test the build and provide replays. but of course its dumb to say that because why havnt the top pro koreans started doing what im doing? so i dunno my winrate vs PvZ ever since i really started to get the matchup is like 100% and ill be facing grandmasters soon so i guess ill find out then how much it cna work
the future of earlygame ZvP is you need a build that most likely doesnt get a early forge, and cuts zero economy, and while cutting zero economy you put as much pressure as you can on the zerg to stop his droning.
i call the above paragraph the GOLDEN RULE of earlygame ZvP. any build you do must follow the GOLDEN RULE or its simply put bad and a good zerg should tear you apart
im sure many tosses think they following the golden rule. but most BO's that are gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing will normally cut probes at around 19 probes, not a good idea since your killing getting your final economy asap. also most gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing have the toss cutting his chronoboosts on his nexus after 15probes, also bad. by maxing out chronoboosts on your nexus and not cutting probes you can hit saturation much faster and have more economy. then, while maxing out your economy you put as much pressure as you can. im not saying gateway-expands are bad, im saying most of the time a protoss isnt following the golden rule and he is cutting some economy.
the above sounds easy and it is once you find a optimized build that follows the golden rule properly.
and ive found two builds follow the golden rule pretty well. im sure there are more builds that also follow the golden rule but i havnt explored everything yet and im sure 2 builds is a good start
and also toss pretty much only has two options when it comes to earlygame PvZ. either you go forge-expand or gateway-expand.
and i think forge first is just bad because of queens in sc2 letting a good zerg power out so much drones once he sees the forge
the golden rule basically simply means that you cut zero economy, and put as much pressure as you can while cutting no economy.
and most forge-expand builds actually do follow the golden rule. they usually never cut probes, the problem is i simply feel there are no "good" forge-expand builds because even if you try to follow the golden rule the forge-first is just too bad because of queen mechanics
i still havnt seen any good forge-expands that are "good". ive seen many forge expands follow the golden rule, but they still dont end up being "good".
i am open to the possibility that there are "good" forge expand builds out there, i just havent seen it yet. so pretty much im putting most of my research into gateway expand builds.
and so far ive found two gateway-expand builds that follow the golden rule and i feel are pretty good at having a equal early game with the zerg
heres the last game i played against zerg. i used a build thats pretty much a "zealot pressure expand" but it cuts no economy and your pretty much safe from any all-in from the zerg if you scout at 9pylon
Just have watched your replay.. Did you ever hear of warpgate reasearch ? Your reactions were sloppy that game. Really pain to watch tbh. Aside of the awesomness when mommaship comes in. There wasnt anything too good.. Your expo could be earlier down if you didnt make too many zealots - and you didnt have to make those preemptively to be able to defend if you didnt forget to make WPG. Idea is good however you have a long way to get the proper timings down
the main thing you should focus on in that replay when it comes to the build is the early game, before 8minutes
im confident i can have more workers, and higher supply than any zerg by the 8 minute mark as long as im using a build that follows the golden rule. The "zealot pressure expand" build i used in that replay is one of the two good builds i have found against zerg that follows the golden rule.
(the golden rule just means you cannot cut any economy, and have to put as much pressure as you can to stop the zergs droning. most gateway-expands i see cut chronoboosts on the nexus and cut probes around 20 which is cutting economy)
the "zealot pressure expand" gets 2 fast gates, with a normal gas, and it puts on very early 2gate pressure while getting a fast voidray to pressure the zerg and force extra queens, and if the zerg attempts any kind of early cheese or baneling bust the 9pylon scout sees that and its very easy to deal with any early cheese
if i played badly past the 8 minute mark its more because my mechanics are not up to par yet. as far as the build is concerned, focus on the first 8 minutes of the game where im sure my mechanics are capable of playing perfectly for the first 8 minutes
as far as the "zealot pressure expand" build is concerned ive been working on it for weeks and i feel getting that stargate before the expansion is required because you want the fast voidrays to kill some drones. as you see in the replay i got the nexus right about after the stargate was started because i scouted my enemy made some spines meaning he couldnt be offensive.
(im not saying this zealot pressure expand is the only build that follows the golden rule. so far ive been trying out 2 builds that i feel are good at it but im sure theres more out there and experimenting with other things could work)
so with that said i feel you should only try to criticize the first 8 minutes of my game/builds. so with that in mind looking at your post i will try to dissect everything you have said that applies to the first 8 minutes of the game.
""Your expo could be earlier down if you didnt make too many zealots"" i make my expansion right after the stargate, after putting zealot pressure on the zerg to damage his economy. my expo might be considered "late" because its later than when most tosses expo, but i also put so much pressure on the zerg i stop his ability to powerdrone as much as he would like. i believe this trade off is beneficial for the protoss. I have a slightly later expansion, but i have stopped the zerg from droning in the very early game
"" - and you didnt have to make those preemptively to be able to defend if you didnt forget to make WPG. ""
i did need to make the zealots early if i wanted to stop the zerg from droning early. once my zealots reached the zergs base i saw i forced him to make some spine crawler, which is good. without the early zealots that couldnt happen.
regardless, i expanded right after the stargate. and this may seem like a late expansion, but because i hurt the zergs economy in the early game it is actually good for the protoss. Now when my fast voidray arrives it forces the zerg to cut even more economy to fight my voidrays (by making more queens instead of drones)
Zerg counter to this strategy: start to prepare units to be between your third and natural @ 7:00
omg! all of a sudden the seemingly random pressure is useless. Thats how zerg works, you either know the timing of the timing attack and you crush it, or you get tricked and punished. So many zealots is a risk, if you get the hatchery it was worth it, if you trade units its not worth it (if a zerg kills 6 zealots in the middle of the field before warpgate tech is out, ITS DRONING TIME).
On October 10 2011 09:23 Anihc wrote: This is a good build in the sense that it puts pressure on the zerg before the 9-10 minute mark when traditional 2 base protoss attacks happen. It will punish greedy zergs who see a forge and just assume that they can drone nonstop for the first 8 minutes. Even for zergs who are a bit better prepared, it changes the early game PvZ dynamic and can still put the protoss in a better economic position due to the zerg having to spend early larva on units and not just drones. However, like all builds (and there are others as well that can put this kind of pressure on the zerg off a FFE before 8 minutes), it's scoutable and counterable, and I wouldn't call it "the future of FFE."
Agreed, this is just a metagame build designed to exploit the fact that P don't attack before 9 min. Further, Kiwi has been doing this for at least a month, probably longer.
All these FFE builds are the Protoss attempting to fix their problems by being as greedy as possible, and I don't think it will work. Being so economy focused in PvZ is like Terran being economy focused in TvP. If the Terran fast expands without any ability to pressure I feel as happy as pie, can chrono probes all day and get my tech & upgrades easily. It's always much scarier when Terran has plenty of options to hit me with, and that's how Protoss has to play vs Zerg.
On October 10 2011 19:01 dayshadow wrote: CombatEX did this build on his live stream once against slush (he won btw), but he did a nice follow up after the 2 gateways;
2 Gateways 2 Stargates (which were scouted) 2 Robos (emidiatly after the 2 Stargates into Colossi)
Pretty nice build imo
so, in other words, it was the 2/2/2/2 build? 2 bases, 2 gates, 2 stars, 2 robos?
I haven't watched the game just read the thread but if you went for early third after the push with zealots could you still be able to defend mutalisk harass for example or maybe two-three base push/all-in? I mean if zealots do so much damage maybe zergs decide to counterattack and just allin.
I think it's extremely map dependent, specifically dependent on how you wall off. If you simcity a side of your nexus with a forge and gate only, then you can hide the second gate and hope he doesn't notice the +1 weapons being chronoed faster than usual; if you need 3 buildings to wall off (say, tal'darim altar ffe), then zerg will scout it 100% of the time.
First of all, I think that the FFE is the best possible way to approach the PvZ. Secondly since Zergs adapted and went for a fast third it is impossible to take your own third without preassuring pretty early. That leaves us with only Zealots, maybe +1 Zealots but getting a fair amount of Stalkers would simply take too much time, Zs third would have already been worth the investment.
Why most of you are wrong:
Yes, if scouted the Zerg can react by getting a couple of roaches and can kill your Zealots if you walk them into the Zs base blindly. So, send a probe to test the waters. <- It really is as simple as it sounds, check with the probe you should have out to place random pylons.
ALSO(and this is the big one):
YOU HAVE FORCED ROACHES!!!! If you execution is good, he will only have roaches if he knows what he's up against. So it will do incredible damage if unscouted, that's nice but nothing you should ever rely on. So what if Z scouts and knows exactly what's coming up? He gets Roaches, he crushes your push. So what? He spent 1 Drone on an early roach warrant, he spent about the same amount of minerals to defend as you did to preassure him. He also spent 5-6 additional larvae to get the roaches. All in all you propably get to kill a few roaches/lings and most of the time still get one or two drone kills if you Micro correctly. Maybe you can even snipe a Queen, hurting his production a ton!
Zerg scouted it and did not get a fast third? Great, goal achieved.
So what you invest is a little delayed tech, what you gain is _GUARANTEED_ damage to the Z economy, also you are calling the shots, meaning that Zerg will feel a little less comfortable.
In my opinion AND experience it is worth the Zealots! You simply lose against a good Zerg that goes ultra fast 3 Base vs your FFe if you wait untill you got warpgate researched.
With the Zealots you don't lose. So why in the hell would that be worse!?
_____
For those who think you have to die to a Roach counter attack. I really believe that Protoss are getting to few cannons, against Zerg and Terran. If you have a highground cannon, one or two on lowground and a handfull of Sentries+Stalkers you can easily defend the push with correct building placement.
On October 10 2011 07:52 Micket wrote: Early roaches shut down those zealots way too easily. Once that happens, the game is literally over. This strategy relies upon zerg to not scout and assume he can drone for 5 minutes.
On October 10 2011 08:42 Easytouch wrote: Sure, this works in theory, but the fact of the matter is most zergs will just drone their dicks off when they see a FFE.
How do you do that? I'm having problems with my ZvP, should I play with my penis?
On October 10 2011 08:42 Easytouch wrote: Sure, this works in theory, but the fact of the matter is most zergs will just drone their dicks off when they see a FFE.
How do you do that? I'm having problems with my ZvP, should I play with my penis?
You have to really be attracted to the D key on your keyboard. but yeah.
This relies on the zerg not noticing you have two gateways you are constantly Chronoboosting before a core.
If scouted, the zealot push will get crushed and 10-12 roaches (+whatever reinforcements the z decides to throw in) will break your 1-2 cannons and walled front and you will lose the nexus if not the whole game.
You can't get roaches while taking a third expo and defend in time, unless you cut way too much in economy. This is either forcing the zerg to defend with lings and spines with 3 bases or defend with roaches and stay on 2 bases the latter is really the goal imo. Well, there is other options such as tech too. Getting any early roaches delays tech more than a speedlings and you have to make so many overlords too. Any counter all-in by zerg could easily be avoided for the protoss with good cannons placement and forcefields, so if you succeed with such an attack it is because of the incompetence of your opponent rather than a result of his build order.
However, Kiwikakis transition into 2 stargate Voidrays is really silly, I mean it doesn't make sense the zerg has been able to tech after the initial zealot attack, and lair is almost done or the zerg is getting any lair tech units which all smash void rays (hydras,mutas, and infestor). It cut into his resources and tech/gateways everything and he doesn't get any gain from them except for like some overlords like 2. I mean not a good trade off. I rather see Phoenix or Twillight council. The Void rays only makes sense if the zerg goes for some extremly delayed all-in. You can be much more liberal with phoenixes and poke more aggressively besides they are good against both hydras and mutas. Twillight council for either blink and to be able to get +2 attack really fast, while adding on gateways and then push out taking a third quickly seems good aswell. Robo forces you to 2-basing since both immortal and colossus is not that cheap and only works well in big army compositions. Which gives zergs too much time to drone and tech with litteraly no pressure on him. Well, of course warp prism could be used but it works better with high gateway count, so personally would sneak a warp prism in the council route.
Edit/update: Notice that this build works really well on any maps with small entrance to the natural so shakuras plateau, antigua and such maps less on maps like xel naga. It is not a gimmicky build as many persuade themselves that it is, you guys really overhype the roach all in counter which if not succeed will lose you the game, the protoss can just keep building cannons and chrono out sentries delay tech and defend. Then all zerg has left is no army and few drones.
This build also requires the Protoss to significantly cut and delay gas to have enough minerals to pull off in the timing window aimed for.
Any 1 gas opening by zerg (read: every single zerg opening v. protoss) will crush this when it is scouted.
Protoss is essentially limiting itself to two bases with a meager, easily countered army while being behind in tech.
A roach counter (using the third as a macro hatch) will face a maximum of two forcefields as warp gate also gets delayed even more than a normal FFE. If the gateways are socuted, and if the zealots do not do damage, the protoss will lose. It's an incredibly gimmicky play.
No. Baneling bust with 2 bases is autowin against this. Also 1 spine defending expansions you cant do anything with your zealots. And few roaches also counters these zealots hard.
I’m only plat.. but at my level if I FFE and follow it up with a 7 gate I always seem to overrun the zerg regardless if they took a quick 3rd or scouted it and produced roaches to defend..
Is it simply because I’m plat this is working or is it legitimately strong?. I usually cannon up my expo significantly and get some sentry’s to block banelings if they come.. so far no issues with this strat? Maybe get quick muta and distract me long enough to get adequate defenses but no one’s tried it?
I’m only plat.. but at my level if I FFE and follow it up with a 7 gate I always seem to overrun the zerg regardless if they took a quick 3rd or scouted it and produced roaches to defend..
Is it simply because I’m plat this is working or is it legitimately strong?. I usually cannon up my expo significantly and get some sentry’s to block banelings if they come.. so far no issues with this strat? Maybe get quick muta and distract me long enough to get adequate defenses but no one’s tried it?
It's because you're in Plat. At the lower levels of play, a 7 gate will just about always beat a Zerg taking a fast third, and it's very hard to defend against at any level of play. At normal play though, Zerg can easily hold 7 gate with taking a super fast third, and now it's kind of the new 4-gate, in that it's been figured out, and if Zerg knows it's coming then they'll always win, and that it's super easy to scout for.
You have to hold with speedlings, roaches, spines, and queens. The most tech you can possibly have against 7 gate is +1, but you shouldn't have anything else. You *might* have roach speed on the way if you teched fast.
But it is a super strong all-in cheese, yes. The build is the same as 4 gate, and lower level Zergs generally can't defend against it as well.
i like kiwis opening it denys the 3rd and roaches may stop this quiet easily, but that means no 3rd and the roaches don't do much against the wallin. All in all the zealots are really worth it. The roach/ling push takes some control out of you though to stop it. But normally you won't lose more then then forge. On some maps you even have your 3rd before the zerg. But it always works to pressure a zerg early, you just shouldn't think they won't counter you, as they can switch from chronoboosting 2 nexus to 4 gate in under a second hehe.
On October 10 2011 19:01 dayshadow wrote: CombatEX did this build on his live stream once against slush (he won btw), but he did a nice follow up after the 2 gateways;
2 Gateways 2 Stargates (which were scouted) 2 Robos (emidiatly after the 2 Stargates into Colossi)
Pretty nice build imo
so, in other words, it was the 2/2/2/2 build? 2 bases, 2 gates, 2 stars, 2 robos?
No, the combatex build is really different from the kiwi build. He open 2 gates Zealot (no gas) expand instead of forge expand into 2 gates. After that he went stargate to exploit the fact that Z need early roaches to stop the zealot. Finally depend on how much stargate tech dealt dmg, he transition into DT/colosuss with Void ray sniping overseer. Its a cheese/reactionary build and has notthing to do with kiwi build.
To all those people saying roaches/crawlers shut this down, what time are you going to throw it down? You can hit as early as ~7 mins, so what, you throw your warren down @ 5:30? How much eco do you have to do to do that after taking your 3rd as well?
And at 7 mins your third probably just spawned you won't have time to get crawlers up (also remember you need crawlers at both your nat and 3rd since you don't know where he's going to attack).
People need to realize you can hit as early as 7 mins, but you can also wait for more zealots, or not can even not attack at all. If all protoss had to do was chrono out +1 weapons and make 1-3 zealots, which is all you would see @ 5:30, to make zerg cut drones and make a roach warren and roaches, any protoss would take that in a heartbeat. And like I said, even if zerg does make roaches that early (I do this opening all the time and I've never seen a warren that early when they went fast 3rd), you can simply just run away. Slow roaches are slow.
On October 10 2011 23:49 FeyFey wrote: i like kiwis opening it denys the 3rd and roaches may stop this quiet easily, but that means no 3rd and the roaches don't do much against the wallin. All in all the zealots are really worth it. The roach/ling push takes some control out of you though to stop it. But normally you won't lose more then then forge. On some maps you even have your 3rd before the zerg. But it always works to pressure a zerg early, you just shouldn't think they won't counter you, as they can switch from chronoboosting 2 nexus to 4 gate in under a second hehe.
Actually, Zerg going super fast third hatch will throw down an evo chamber and roach warren around 6:30-6:50. If you watch Losira or Nestea, they always throw both down within those times, without fail, unless they a clutch scout off (like no gas at natural, then don't need evo). That said, the roaches will pop in time to stop the zealots.
The zealots won't deny the third at all, and even if Zerg doesn't scout and make an earlier roach warren, spines, or speedlings for incoming zealot pressure, they will still be able to make 4-5 roaches to defend just fine with creep.
As for having a 3rd before Zerg, I don't know how that would be possible if Zerg is going super fast third in response to FFE. I don't really think what you say makes sense :O
To all those people saying roaches/crawlers shut this down, what time are you going to throw it down? You can hit as early as ~7 mins, so what, you throw your warren down @ 5:30? How much eco do you have to do to do that after taking your 3rd as well?
And at 7 mins your third probably just spawned you won't have time to get crawlers up (also remember you need crawlers at both your nat and 3rd since you don't know where he's going to attack).
If you are making zealots off 2 gate like this, you will be extremely delayed. The same time most Protoss is throwing down, say, 5 more gateway for a 6 gate +1 all-in, is the same time you only have 2 gateways running. Throwing down a normal 6:30 roach warren means the zealots will be in your base when roaches pop, but they definitely won't have time to kill anything. You will have to micro and shift around drones and queens and use lings, but you will be fine. You won't lose your hatch.
And then you could also just scout, see that there are 2 gateways at the front, it's very obvious, and get the roach warren at 6:00, or make spines + speedlings.
The problem with this assumption is the idea that "the zerg will never expect 6 zealots". If this build did indeed become the "future of FFE", then all zergs would come to expect 6 zealots, thereby rendering the build useless.
So no, this won't become the future of FFE, but it was a nice little trick that Kiwi pulled on Stephano in a BoX series.
Kiwi has done this build literally every PvZ for the last month..
NASL, IPL qualifiers, MLG global invitational.
He beat a couple Korean zergs, slush, and took games off sheth with it.
They knew it was coming everytime, there is games when he loses all the zealots to roaches doing barely any damage and still wins. For people saying ''if they make roaches you autolose'', you're simply wrong. The whole point of it is to force units.
I’m only plat.. but at my level if I FFE and follow it up with a 7 gate I always seem to overrun the zerg regardless if they took a quick 3rd or scouted it and produced roaches to defend..
Is it simply because I’m plat this is working or is it legitimately strong?. I usually cannon up my expo significantly and get some sentry’s to block banelings if they come.. so far no issues with this strat? Maybe get quick muta and distract me long enough to get adequate defenses but no one’s tried it?
It's because you're in Plat. At the lower levels of play, a 7 gate will just about always beat a Zerg taking a fast third, and it's very hard to defend against at any level of play. At normal play though, Zerg can easily hold 7 gate with taking a super fast third, and now it's kind of the new 4-gate, in that it's been figured out, and if Zerg knows it's coming then they'll always win, and that it's super easy to scout for.
You have to hold with speedlings, roaches, spines, and queens. The most tech you can possibly have against 7 gate is +1, but you shouldn't have anything else. You *might* have roach speed on the way if you teched fast.
But it is a super strong all-in cheese, yes. The build is the same as 4 gate, and lower level Zergs generally can't defend against it as well.
Thanks. I actually have a harder time winning with 4gate than this as it seems everyone knows how to stop a 4 gate these days.. and I only started doing it because when I would FFE I'd get the all-in roach pushes that would just crush me.. so I started doing it more defensively.. but it worked so well I started being aggressive with it and I haven't lost with it… yet... even when scouted! Guess i'll ride this wave until someone stops me lol
On a side note.. I didn’t realize this was considered “all in cheese”.. seeing as how I usually have a pretty decent income rolling in by the time I attack.. I could see a legit transition into higher tech or even expo… Is it because if it IS stopped I would be potentially behind in tech? I mean even if it’s stopped haven’t I forced units vs. tech for my opponent anyways? I always thought it was more of a timing attack than cheese.
To all those people saying roaches/crawlers shut this down, what time are you going to throw it down? You can hit as early as ~7 mins, so what, you throw your warren down @ 5:30? How much eco do you have to do to do that after taking your 3rd as well?
And at 7 mins your third probably just spawned you won't have time to get crawlers up (also remember you need crawlers at both your nat and 3rd since you don't know where he's going to attack).
If you are making zealots off 2 gate like this, you will be extremely delayed. The same time most Protoss is throwing down, say, 5 more gateway for a 6 gate +1 all-in, is the same time you only have 2 gateways running. Throwing down a normal 6:30 roach warren means the zealots will be in your base when roaches pop, but they definitely won't have time to kill anything. You will have to micro and shift around drones and queens and use lings, but you will be fine. You won't lose your hatch.
And then you could also just scout, see that there are 2 gateways at the front, it's very obvious, and get the roach warren at 6:00, or make spines + speedlings.
6 min roach warren is too late, 6:30 is waaaay too late, I hit your 3rd @ 7 mins. You won't have crawlers, you won't have speedlings (just slowlings). You also have to factor in that all your hatcheries are spread apart. You can't instantly spawn all roaches at your 3rd hatchery. Your 3rd hatch will likely go down in this scenario. You can't micro a hatch away from zealots. You can save your 3rd don't get me wrong, but most of the time this is done by just making a ton of lings, but then I will be ahead in worker count.
2-gate opener does not necessarily mean delayed tech, it depends on how you want to do the zealot pressure. There is a lot of varying ways to do it and honestly I have no idea what works best. Kiwi does it by delaying all gas and just pumping mass zealots which will obviously delay your tech, but I actually get gate, core, and warpgate tech plus enough gas to get 1 tech building (usually robo) all at relatively normal FFE timings (you can get gas before your first gate for a quicker +1 weapons which will delay your tech very slightly - see how much variance you can do?).
Or as a reference, I can actually be inside your base with a warp prism and 7 gates behind before 10 mins with +1/+1 finished, which is what I usually do if I don't see roaches. That is hardly "extremely delayed."
On October 11 2011 00:36 JLew wrote: Kiwi has done this build literally every PvZ for the last month..
NASL, IPL qualifiers, MLG global invitational.
He beat a couple Korean zergs, slush, and took games off sheth with it.
They knew it was coming everytime, there is games when he loses all the zealots to roaches doing barely any damage and still wins. For people saying ''if they make roaches you autolose'', you're simply wrong. The whole point of it is to force units.
Exactly. People don't realize zealots are cheap and expendable. You can easily pressure with zealots without cutting probes or delaying tech. It's simply a opening you can do out of a FFE that will keep a zerg player honest. I personally like getting +1 weapons just because getting an early start on upgrades is a pretty good advantage going into the mid and late game.
People have posted FFE builds that incorporate getting both gas off the main as the expand is building, which answers the question of having the power to move on to other strategies such as robo tech and mass gate units, either of which will (if done quickly enough) counter roaches and force Zerg into other strategies. Even if Zerg drone hard in this situation, it will consequently take then longer to saturate a new base and produce an army than the Protoss.
Thanks. I actually have a harder time winning with 4gate than this as it seems everyone knows how to stop a 4 gate these days.. and I only started doing it because when I would FFE I'd get the all-in roach pushes that would just crush me.. so I started doing it more defensively.. but it worked so well I started being aggressive with it and I haven't lost with it… yet... even when scouted! Guess i'll ride this wave until someone stops me lol
Again, this must be because of your league lol. A roach/ling all-in will come way before you even throw down those extra 6 gateways or have more than 3-4 units. Being more 'defensive' with a 7 gate isn't going to save you from roach/ling all-ins, much like BC's aren't a good way to defend against baneling busts.
To handle roach/ling all-ins, you need to build an extra cannon or two, have good building placement, and a good awareness and response for forcefields or having to pull probes to fill in holes. If you watch the Prime clan video, there's a great example where Hongun holds Fruitdealer's baneling bust by building about a million buildings to fill holes (Fruitdealer has commented saying he think P is OP, and in the first 3 seasons of the GSL he always either 6 pooled or baneling busted P every time).
You'll probably get to Masters easily with 7 gate if you actually do it right. You should be pushing out of your base at 8:30 exactly, as in you should be doing your first warp-in of 7 units, have a proxy pylon already set out there somewhere, and be bringing along a probe. By 8:50 you should be engaging and on creep.
On a side note.. I didn’t realize this was considered “all in cheese”.. seeing as how I usually have a pretty decent income rolling in by the time I attack.. I could see a legit transition into higher tech or even expo… Is it because if it IS stopped I would be potentially behind in tech? I mean even if it’s stopped haven’t I forced units vs. tech for my opponent anyways? I always thought it was more of a timing attack than cheese.
It's all-in cheese in the same way 4 gate is all in cheese. If you fail to do decent damage there is no way you are going to come back against a competent opponent. It's still very possible you kill enough drones or the opponent screws up their macro that you can stay in the game or expand, just like with a 4 gate.
In my experience, the hardest thing for me to deal with when fighting against a 7 gater who failed is someone who throws down 2 robos and just gets 3-4 colossi really fast to secure a third and then makes a deathball, or just throws down a stargate and robo and tries to do it on 2 base. It's really hard for Zerg to stop deathballs even when they know it's coming, and even with the right units or preparation Zerg can still lose to it very easily. Then again, there's been a lot of patches in the last few months, and this build was really popular pre-infestor buff, so that may be part of the reason. But that's something that you could definitely pull off in Platinum.
But yea, it's considered all-in because you're behind in tech and you're doing it just to do it, as opposed to reacting what you scout. Zerg just gets burrow roaches and you die. And Zerg should be teching up and droning slightly against it, they don't need 100% unit production to hold it. With 7 gates you can't really produce tech also, so Zerg will get burrow and kill you.
A timing attack would be a 5 gate robo build on FFE, which is more sustainable, and when +1 finishes you put on pressure. 7 gate +1 is a timing attack, but it's a cheesy all-in timing attack, make sense? 5 gate robo, you won't autolose once Zerg gets burrow, and you can defend, and you won't autolose to certain builds, with 7 gate Zerg can defend if he knows what you are doing and will just roll you over afterwards because it has such huge holes in it (lack of detection, lack of aoe).
Really. It's pretty much the exact same as 4 gate in every way. Why can't you just throw down a nexus after your 4 gate has been staved off? Because Zerg will have ecked out drones and finished his lair during the push and then just kill you with burrow or mass units. Same thing.
It's very hard for Zerg to hold at every level, so keep doing it if it works. Much like 4 gate, when done perfectly, it can kill even the best pros even if they know it's coming. It's not a good build, imo, but it's a build that most lower level people don't know how to scout for, and a lot of higher level people don't know how to handle.
They knew it was coming everytime, there is games when he loses all the zealots to roaches doing barely any damage and still wins. For people saying ''if they make roaches you autolose'', you're simply wrong. The whole point of it is to force units.
Actually, Stephano didn't know it was coming. He didn't have a ling out front.
And a lot of people had never seen it before.
As for forcing units, yes, that is a good part of this build, because Protoss can just make lots of probes and tech while Zerg is 'stagnant'. But then Protoss loses their entire army. I've had people do this to me, and I then went and outright killed them with about 6-8 roaches I had left over. In the game with Kiwi vs Stephano, Kiwi didn't kill any drones, and lost what, 10 zealots, to kill a single hatchery that was rebuilt immediately? Not worth it at all.
6 min roach warren is too late, 6:30 is waaaay too late, I hit your 3rd @ 7 mins. You won't have crawlers, you won't have speedlings (just slowlings). You also have to factor in that all your hatcheries are spread apart. You can't instantly spawn all roaches at your 3rd hatchery. Your 3rd hatch will likely go down in this scenario. You can't micro a hatch away from zealots. You can save your 3rd don't get me wrong, but most of the time this is done by just making a ton of lings, but then I will be ahead in worker count.
I stated that yes, the zealots will be in the base when roach warren finishes. You will force me to transfer drones, to micro like crazy, and deny mining at a base temporarily. If I actually scout you, I'll make the roach warren much earlier, and I WILL have slowlings and spines. As for hatches spread apart, you have to factor in that you may not know where my third was taken, that I even took a third.
And as the Kiwi vs Stephano game showed, I will happily let you kill my third hatchery if you let me kill all of your zealots.
You will definitely hurt my hatch. You will get it into the yellow. You will deny mining. But with a 6:30 roach warren, you will be the one that loses out, provided I micro (ie kite zealots, pull away drones).
I do think that the true value in this opening is that it denies workers and tech from Zerg when at the same time Protoss can be making workers and tech, so I think it works well on maps where Protoss can take an easily defendable third or when Protoss follows up with deathball play. I think it's combat-ex who does his '2-2-2' gate/sg/robo like this lol.
Thanks. I actually have a harder time winning with 4gate than this as it seems everyone knows how to stop a 4 gate these days.. and I only started doing it because when I would FFE I'd get the all-in roach pushes that would just crush me.. so I started doing it more defensively.. but it worked so well I started being aggressive with it and I haven't lost with it… yet... even when scouted! Guess i'll ride this wave until someone stops me lol
Again, this must be because of your league lol. A roach/ling all-in will come way before you even throw down those extra 6 gateways or have more than 3-4 units. Being more 'defensive' with a 7 gate isn't going to save you from roach/ling all-ins, much like BC's aren't a good way to defend against baneling busts.
To handle roach/ling all-ins, you need to build an extra cannon or two, have good building placement, and a good awareness and response for forcefields or having to pull probes to fill in holes. If you watch the Prime clan video, there's a great example where Hongun holds Fruitdealer's baneling bust by building about a million buildings to fill holes (Fruitdealer has commented saying he think P is OP, and in the first 3 seasons of the GSL he always either 6 pooled or baneling busted P every time).
You'll probably get to Masters easily with 7 gate if you actually do it right. You should be pushing out of your base at 8:30 exactly, as in you should be doing your first warp-in of 7 units, have a proxy pylon already set out there somewhere, and be bringing along a probe. By 8:50 you should be engaging and on creep.
On a side note.. I didn’t realize this was considered “all in cheese”.. seeing as how I usually have a pretty decent income rolling in by the time I attack.. I could see a legit transition into higher tech or even expo… Is it because if it IS stopped I would be potentially behind in tech? I mean even if it’s stopped haven’t I forced units vs. tech for my opponent anyways? I always thought it was more of a timing attack than cheese.
It's all-in cheese in the same way 4 gate is all in cheese. If you fail to do decent damage there is no way you are going to come back against a competent opponent. It's still very possible you kill enough drones or the opponent screws up their macro that you can stay in the game or expand, just like with a 4 gate.
In my experience, the hardest thing for me to deal with when fighting against a 7 gater who failed is someone who throws down 2 robos and just gets 3-4 colossi really fast to secure a third and then makes a deathball, or just throws down a stargate and robo and tries to do it on 2 base. It's really hard for Zerg to stop deathballs even when they know it's coming, and even with the right units or preparation Zerg can still lose to it very easily. Then again, there's been a lot of patches in the last few months, and this build was really popular pre-infestor buff, so that may be part of the reason. But that's something that you could definitely pull off in Platinum.
But yea, it's considered all-in because you're behind in tech and you're doing it just to do it, as opposed to reacting what you scout. Zerg just gets burrow roaches and you die. And Zerg should be teching up and droning slightly against it, they don't need 100% unit production to hold it. With 7 gates you can't really produce tech also, so Zerg will get burrow and kill you.
A timing attack would be a 5 gate robo build on FFE, which is more sustainable, and when +1 finishes you put on pressure. 7 gate +1 is a timing attack, but it's a cheesy all-in timing attack, make sense? 5 gate robo, you won't autolose once Zerg gets burrow, and you can defend, and you won't autolose to certain builds, with 7 gate Zerg can defend if he knows what you are doing and will just roll you over afterwards because it has such huge holes in it (lack of detection, lack of aoe).
Really. It's pretty much the exact same as 4 gate in every way. Why can't you just throw down a nexus after your 4 gate has been staved off? Because Zerg will have ecked out drones and finished his lair during the push and then just kill you with burrow or mass units. Same thing.
It's very hard for Zerg to hold at every level, so keep doing it if it works. Much like 4 gate, when done perfectly, it can kill even the best pros even if they know it's coming. It's not a good build, imo, but it's a build that most lower level people don't know how to scout for, and a lot of higher level people don't know how to handle.
Yea makes sense. thanks for the explanation. I think I may actually try the 5 gate robo instead then. I'd rather have a solid build vs. a cheesy one to be honest.. considering I play random though I don't get this matchup too too often.. so that's probably why my timing is off on a lot of the normal builds.
6 min roach warren is too late, 6:30 is waaaay too late, I hit your 3rd @ 7 mins. You won't have crawlers, you won't have speedlings (just slowlings). You also have to factor in that all your hatcheries are spread apart. You can't instantly spawn all roaches at your 3rd hatchery. Your 3rd hatch will likely go down in this scenario. You can't micro a hatch away from zealots. You can save your 3rd don't get me wrong, but most of the time this is done by just making a ton of lings, but then I will be ahead in worker count.
I stated that yes, the zealots will be in the base when roach warren finishes. You will force me to transfer drones, to micro like crazy, and deny mining at a base temporarily. If I actually scout you, I'll make the roach warren much earlier, and I WILL have slowlings and spines. As for hatches spread apart, you have to factor in that you may not know where my third was taken, that I even took a third.
And as the Kiwi vs Stephano game showed, I will happily let you kill my third hatchery if you let me kill all of your zealots.
You will definitely hurt my hatch. You will get it into the yellow. You will deny mining. But with a 6:30 roach warren, you will be the one that loses out, provided I micro (ie kite zealots, pull away drones).
I do think that the true value in this opening is that it denies workers and tech from Zerg when at the same time Protoss can be making workers and tech, so I think it works well on maps where Protoss can take an easily defendable third or when Protoss follows up with deathball play. I think it's combat-ex who does his '2-2-2' gate/sg/robo like this lol.
If your warren just finishes when my zealots arrive and you don't have enough lings to defend I simply just focus fire your hatch (just move your zealots next to hatch and hit hold position and they will hit any lings that engage them or hit the hatch if there aren't). I'm not going to simply send my entire army of zealots to chase your drones and queen in circles. You cannot micro your hatchery away from my zealots, and if you make a warren at 6:00 or later your hatch will go down if you didn't make a lot of lings (it takes about 23 seconds for 5 +1 zealots to focus fire a hatch down).
And contrary to what you may think a 3rd is actually fairly easy to scout. 99% of the time it's in obvious spots because zerg wants to connect creep, but also when you get a fast 3rd you won't have ling speed so scouting a 3rd with your initial probe scout is very probable. Even if you lose it, sending out your first zealot to scout possible 3rd locations is possible.
The fact of the matter is even if scouted, the risk/reward ratio for protoss in this situation is very good. Zealots are completely expendable, and if 3-5 zealots forces you to make at least 2+ spine crawlers (at nat and 3rd, and you would have to toss the crawler up at your 3rd immediately when hatch pops to be up in time), a roach warren earlier than 6 mins, roaches and lings... the zealots already paid for themselves before the engagement even happened. How many drones did you lose/cut from that? But on the protoss side he doesn't cut probes, and depending on the variant does not delay tech. It's win-win for protoss regardless if you save the hatch and stop the push. The push is not meant to be game-ending at all, it's just to keep the zerg honest.
I'm not a zerg player but I actually don't think trying to defend with roaches after getting a fast 3rd is optimal. It seems to be that it would be cheaper to just make a ton of lings and try to hope you can catch the zealots out in the open or just simply go for a later 3rd.
If your warren just finishes when my zealots arrive and you don't have enough lings to defend I simply just focus fire your hatch (just move your zealots next to hatch and hit hold position and they will hit any lings that engage them or hit the hatch if there aren't). I'm not going to simply send my entire army of zealots to chase your drones and queen in circles. You cannot micro your hatchery away from my zealots, and if you make a warren at 6:00 or later your hatch will go down if you didn't make a lot of lings (it takes about 23 seconds for 5 +1 zealots to focus fire a hatch down).
That's why you make lings and spines, and actually see 2 gateways making zealots, chronoboost on 2 gates, chronoboost on forge, lack of gas on the natural, could see lack of gas on main as a big tell, or on big maps just see zealots walking across the map.
What I was talking about was assuming you didn't even scout, you could still hold. But all this doesn't really matter because if Zerg scouts, he throws down a 5:30 roach warren, or makes 2 spines, and holds easily. We can talk about how great 4 gate is or how great proxy cannon rushing is if we're going to discuss "what if zerg played incompetently and didn't scout anything".
And contrary to what you may think a 3rd is actually fairly easy to scout. 99% of the time it's in obvious spots because zerg wants to connect creep, but also when you get a fast 3rd you won't have ling speed so scouting a 3rd with your initial probe scout is very probable. Even if you lose it, sending out your first zealot to scout possible 3rd locations is possible.
Lots of Zerg get zergling speed, so that right there would deny this zealot pressure. I personally think it's ideal not to open gas in ZvP in case they FFE, but if I see 2 gateways I'll get ling speed much faster and just use lings to defend. Check, Losira, and Nestea are also 3 top zergs that always open 14/14 in ZvP and get ling speed even if it's most likely the opponent will FFE and they scout the FFE before they research the ling speed.
You are right, it's generally easy to scout the fast third. But Zerg can deny the scouting, they can take a faraway third, and what happens if Zerg doesn't get a fast third but instead just goes 2 base lair? Also, many Zergs, like Stephano did or many Zergs have done recently in the GSL on TalDarim, opt for a much, much later third, around 40-50 supply, because maybe they were working down rocks or just decided, for whatever reason, to get that third much later.
But you're right. It's generally easy to scout for the third. I'm just saying that there are scenarios where its not like that (faraway third, hidden third, what if they get ling speed, or what if they take a late third or no third at all).
I'm not a zerg player but I actually don't think trying to defend with roaches after getting a fast 3rd is optimal. It seems to be that it would be cheaper to just make a ton of lings and try to hope you can catch the zealots out in the open or just simply go for a later 3rd.
As a Zerg, I'll tell you that you want that third very fast. I used to think a fast third was stupid, because of how drone saturation works (you need 16+16+16 workers to make it return more income than having 24+24, and thats with perfect maynarding, time for maynarding to return dividends after having a bunch of drones being transferred and not mining) but it gives a huge defensive advantage to have that creep and queen production up.
But, would it be cheaper to make a ton of lings and catch the zealouts out in the open? I don't know if I'd argue that, but it wouldn't be bad. Again, Zerg could just scout, and then easily make lots of lings and get speed in time and catch the zealots in the open.
The fact of the matter is even if scouted, the risk/reward ratio for protoss in this situation is very good. Zealots are completely expendable, and if 3-5 zealots forces you to make at least 2+ spine crawlers (at nat and 3rd, and you would have to toss the crawler up at your 3rd immediately when hatch pops to be up in time), a roach warren earlier than 6 mins, roaches and lings... the zealots already paid for themselves before the engagement even happened. How many drones did you lose/cut from that? But on the protoss side he doesn't cut probes, and depending on the variant does not delay tech. It's win-win for protoss regardless if you save the hatch and stop the push. The push is not meant to be game-ending at all, it's just to keep the zerg honest.
Protoss making 3-5 zealots instead of tech and sentries really hurts and delay them. I know you mentioned you still get your warp prism 7 gate push before 10 minutes, but a push at 9:30 is much easier to hold than a push at 8:30. Like, a million times easier to hold.
If Zerg sees the mass zealots, he can easily make 10 roaches with a 5:45 roach warren, and do a ton of damage with the counterpush.
I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree. I think the real merit of this build is denying droning/teching while getting probes and tech as Protoss. But Zerg can easily scout for it and prepare for the stargate/dts/robo, you won't have any sentries, you will temporarily not have ANYTHING at home after I just made a bunch of army leftover from holding the zealots. But you won't kill the Zerg, and you won't kill the third.
You will put on pressure, and pressure is good, sure. But even if they don't scout, Zerg can be fine. The kiwi vs stephano game showed that Stephano took a huge lead, even despite losing a third, because he didn't lose any drones and just remade the hatch while Kiwi lost his entire army, 1k in army is worth trading for 300 minerals in an expansion that we haven't been able to drone up yet anyways and delaying the Protoss tech.
I'm not saying it's a trash build or anything. It's great catching Zerg off guard, and it transitions very well on certain maps for a faster third or for tech against a Zerg who doesn't make a lair or evo chamber in response. But the risk/reward is not great at all. On a big map, say cross position tal-darim, Zerg gets a 6:00 roach warren, makes 2 spines, micros and runs away drones until 10 roaches pop, on creep, and in the meantime continues droning up and gets his lair and doesn't overreact.
3 gate sentry pressure is good pressure. FFE 2 gate, is not reliable, stable pressure, and will often result in Protoss behind. It won't lose the game for Protoss, but it's hard to see how Protoss would come out actually ahead. It transitions great, but Zerg won't ever die from it, shouldn't lose their third without the Protoss taking more losses than them, and leaves Protoss really vulnerable and without sentries.
That's why you make lings and spines, and actually see 2 gateways making zealots, chronoboost on 2 gates, chronoboost on forge, lack of gas on the natural, could see lack of gas on main as a big tell, or on big maps just see zealots walking across the map.
What I was talking about was assuming you didn't even scout, you could still hold. But all this doesn't really matter because if Zerg scouts, he throws down a 5:30 roach warren, or makes 2 spines, and holds easily. We can talk about how great 4 gate is or how great proxy cannon rushing is if we're going to discuss "what if zerg played incompetently and didn't scout anything".
I'm saying regardless if scouted or not, it keeps the zerg honest. It hits at a point in time where zerg would be mass droning and it prevents that, regardless of the outcome of the engagement.
Lots of Zerg get zergling speed, so that right there would deny this zealot pressure. I personally think it's ideal not to open gas in ZvP in case they FFE, but if I see 2 gateways I'll get ling speed much faster and just use lings to defend. Check, Losira, and Nestea are also 3 top zergs that always open 14/14 in ZvP and get ling speed even if it's most likely the opponent will FFE and they scout the FFE before they research the ling speed.
Yes of course if you scout gas pool they will have ling speed, but that means no fast 3rd and you can just do a normal FFE if you want, but you can still do a zealot opening too you just have to be aware of 2-base timings. Poke with your initial 3 zealots and it will give you indication of what they are doing. I'm not going to go into all the different paths from here but protoss is not exactly in a bad situation having only invested in +1 weapons and 3 zealots. My main point is that a zealot opener keeps a zerg honest who goes for the fast 3rd which many people on these forums believe "counters" a FFE.
You are right, it's generally easy to scout the fast third. But Zerg can deny the scouting, they can take a faraway third, and what happens if Zerg doesn't get a fast third but instead just goes 2 base lair? Also, many Zergs, like Stephano did or many Zergs have done recently in the GSL on TalDarim, opt for a much, much later third, around 40-50 supply, because maybe they were working down rocks or just decided, for whatever reason, to get that third much later.
Again I wasn't advocating the use of heavy zealot aggression in every scenario, although I still like doing a zealot poke out of FFE even vs 2 base just to see what the zerg is up to. It's sort of like overlord scouting, you sac some minerals to take a gander at their army comp and what not and react from there.
But you're right. It's generally easy to scout for the third. I'm just saying that there are scenarios where its not like that (faraway third, hidden third, what if they get ling speed, or what if they take a late third or no third at all).
I don't know where you're going with this. Obviously a hidden third is risky. I can also often figure out you have a fast 3rd by gauging your unit composition and tech with some initial zealots. Ling speed means no fast 3rd. Late third is what protoss wants as the point was to stop the early 3rd + mass droning.
As a Zerg, I'll tell you that you want that third very fast. I used to think a fast third was stupid, because of how drone saturation works (you need 16+16+16 workers to make it return more income than having 24+24, and thats with perfect maynarding, time for maynarding to return dividends after having a bunch of drones being transferred and not mining) but it gives a huge defensive advantage to have that creep and queen production up.
But, would it be cheaper to make a ton of lings and catch the zealouts out in the open? I don't know if I'd argue that, but it wouldn't be bad. Again, Zerg could just scout, and then easily make lots of lings and get speed in time and catch the zealots in the open.
Yes like I said, the zealot aggression is not meant to be game ending, or has to do damage or else you're behind. You are simply forcing earlier engagements.
Protoss making 3-5 zealots instead of tech and sentries really hurts and delay them. I know you mentioned you still get your warp prism 7 gate push before 10 minutes, but a push at 9:30 is much easier to hold than a push at 8:30. Like, a million times easier to hold.
If Zerg sees the mass zealots, he can easily make 10 roaches with a 5:45 roach warren, and do a ton of damage with the counterpush.
You see this is where you are theorycrafting and lack understanding of the timings. At 5:45 I will have 1-3 zealots out. You have no idea how many zealots I'm going to mass, what timing I will hit or if I'm even going to attack you at all. Your only indication would be the 2 gates and a chrono'ed forge. If you're on 3 base you will have had to cut a ton of econ to get that early of a warren, and if you're on 2 base I'm already super wary of a roachling all-in and will be sending out my initial zealots out earlier. Even if I do hit at 7 mins and then your roaches pop I can simply retreat back to my base and warp in cannons and get 1 tech unit out in time (i.e. immortal). Slow roaches and zealots are the same speed.
I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree. I think the real merit of this build is denying droning/teching while getting probes and tech as Protoss. But Zerg can easily scout for it and prepare for the stargate/dts/robo, you won't have any sentries, you will temporarily not have ANYTHING at home after I just made a bunch of army leftover from holding the zealots. But you won't kill the Zerg, and you won't kill the third.
Again, the point isn't to kill the zerg or the third (it's just a bonus if you can do it). It's just to keep them from droning like crazy.
You will put on pressure, and pressure is good, sure. But even if they don't scout, Zerg can be fine. The kiwi vs stephano game showed that Stephano took a huge lead, even despite losing a third, because he didn't lose any drones and just remade the hatch while Kiwi lost his entire army, 1k in army is worth trading for 300 minerals in an expansion that we haven't been able to drone up yet anyways and delaying the Protoss tech.
I'm not saying it's a trash build or anything. It's great catching Zerg off guard, and it transitions very well on certain maps for a faster third or for tech against a Zerg who doesn't make a lair or evo chamber in response. But the risk/reward is not great at all. On a big map, say cross position tal-darim, Zerg gets a 6:00 roach warren, makes 2 spines, micros and runs away drones until 10 roaches pop, on creep, and in the meantime continues droning up and gets his lair and doesn't overreact.
Obviously kiwi's variation has a much higher risk but greater reward. He masses more zealots, delays gas and delays tech longer, but that is just one variation. Look at the day9 daily about elfi's variation on idra. That is much less committed, much more tech oriented. I think that is what you are missing, you can be as committed to it as you want to be, but zerg has to respect the threat. This is why I don't think roaches are a proper way to defend a fast 3rd because you "react" with it fast enough because you don't know how many zealots there will be, when he will attack you or if they even are going to attack you, but you CAN react with lings in time so even if you are forced into a somewhat bad engagement (+1 zealots vs lings) you are not forced to make more than you have to.
3 gate sentry pressure is good pressure. FFE 2 gate, is not reliable, stable pressure, and will often result in Protoss behind. It won't lose the game for Protoss, but it's hard to see how Protoss would come out actually ahead. It transitions great, but Zerg won't ever die from it, shouldn't lose their third without the Protoss taking more losses than them, and leaves Protoss really vulnerable and without sentries.
I disagree I feel it is very stable. Again the goal isn't to kill the zerg or the third. It is not like DTs or SG or anything like that because those are heavy time and resource sinks. An extra gateway and some zealots are not huge resource sinks and does not delay tech at all depending on how you want to do it. The difference is mostly in unit composition as you will be more mineral heavy than gas heavy. 3-gate sentry expand actually is horrible pressure, because sentries are not good offensive units (they need supporting DPS units). 3-gate sentry expand is a safe opener, not an offensive opener. Zerg can very very safely get their third a lot earlier than protoss can get theirs from a 3-gate sentry expand.
And I don't know what you mean by protoss is vulnerable without sentries. Mass sentries is one way to play PvZ not the only way.
I've seen these games on IPL and actually whether or not your zealots die they only serve 2 purposes : killing anyfast 3rd + forcing roaches out of the zerg.
forcing roaches = slower tech because gaz is being used used = relie on queen/spore to defend a 2 stargate transition.
his 2 stargate is followed by 4 gateways if i remember good.
this means zerg will need hydras = uses gaz in order to get his tech = not many ground units.
kiwi warps in ground units, pushes, and wins out of nowhere even tho it felt like he was behind all game long(zerg responding accordingly and almsot perfectly).
Yes of course if you scout gas pool they will have ling speed, but that means no fast 3rd and you can just do a normal FFE if you want, but you can still do a zealot opening too you just have to be aware of 2-base timings. Poke with your initial 3 zealots and it will give you indication of what they are doing. I'm not going to go into all the different paths from here but protoss is not exactly in a bad situation having only invested in +1 weapons and 3 zealots. My main point is that a zealot opener keeps a zerg honest who goes for the fast 3rd which many people on these forums believe "counters" a FFE.
You must not have read what I said correctly. I said many, many top level Zergs open 14/14 in every ZvP, and when they scout FFE, they go for a fast third, and many times will still get ling speed even if they find out before they begin research.
Nestea, Losira, and Check all open 14/14 in ZvP, and all of them get a super fast third in response to FFE. Some people would argue that speed is useless against FFE and if you want to go fast third, but by no means is it impossible or even uncommon that Zerg opens ling speed and then gets a fast third in response to a FFE.
Actually I think MOST zergs open zergling speed and then take a fast third against FFE. So you're understanding is just.... wrong, there.
Fast third doesn't exactly 'counter' FFE, it's just a really good response and if you scout and react properly, you will always come out ahead. That doesn't mean Protoss can't react properly or do a macro oriented build that at least keeps them even.
Again I wasn't advocating the use of heavy zealot aggression in every scenario, although I still like doing a zealot poke out of FFE even vs 2 base just to see what the zerg is up to. It's sort of like overlord scouting, you sac some minerals to take a gander at their army comp and what not and react from there.
You made 2 gateways. If you want to make 2 gateways at the delay of your cybercore, and not take any gas and delay tech for the sake of 2 gateway pressure, be my guest. But there's a reason defensive 4 gate against Zerg is bad, even if you could, I suppose, go into a macro game off it.
I don't know where you're going with this. Obviously a hidden third is risky. I can also often figure out you have a fast 3rd by gauging your unit composition and tech with some initial zealots. Ling speed means no fast 3rd. Late third is what protoss wants as the point was to stop the early 3rd + mass droning.
Dude, Ling speed does not mean no fast third. I have no clue why in the world you think this, but let me just tell you that you are outright wrong in your assumption. I think you said yourself you don't actually play Zerg or know that much about them from a player's point of view, but you can watch any Losira or Nestea game and just realize that they always go 14/14 (actually I think Nestea goes 14/13, but basically same thing), and then still go fast third. Check, and many other Zergs-who-arent-nestea-and-losira open 14/14 with ling speed and take a fast third when they see FFE.
Hell, I went 14/14 in ZvP and then would go fast third if I scouted FFE for a very long time. The only reason I changed my build was because... well, no good reason, and no reason that's relevant to this discussion really. It's a great way to open ZvP, and it being too expensive or delaying my third was never a reason I stopped doing it.
What I meant is that Protoss can't easily know if Zerg took a fast third before throwing down the 2nd gateway before cybercore. Sure, sometimes you can, sometimes you can metagame, but what if Zerg decides to just 2 base it? You threw down your 2 gateways, you probably threw down your cybercore already even and then it's 30 supply and Zerg DOESNT get a third. Oops, you did the wrong build, maybe you should've picked heads!
. At 5:45 I will have 1-3 zealots out. You have no idea how many zealots I'm going to mass, what timing I will hit or if I'm even going to attack you at all. Your only indication would be the 2 gates and a chrono'ed forge. If you're on 3 base you will have had to cut a ton of econ to get that early of a warren, and if you're on 2 base I'm already super wary of a roachling all-in and will be sending out my initial zealots out earlier. Even if I do hit at 7 mins and then your roaches pop I can simply retreat back to my base and warp in cannons and get 1 tech unit out in time (i.e. immortal). Slow roaches and zealots are the same speed.
Actually, I will. When I see 2 gateways, I set an overlord out front. In fact, I always set an overlord near the natural against FFE, and I will see exactly how many zealots and chronos you are using, and there is nothing you can do to deny Zerg from seeing that, unless you hide the 2nd gateway in your base (which isn't the worst idea, but you need a wall-in somehow).
No, Zerg doesn't cut any econ getting a 6:30 warren that will get roaches in time. you can run back with your zealots if you want, but I'll make 20 more roaches and do a shitton of damage and drone up behind it.
Again, the point isn't to kill the zerg or the third (it's just a bonus if you can do it). It's just to keep them from droning like crazy.
I'll happily quit droning if you are making zealots off of 2 gates and had a late cybercore.
The problem with FFE 2 gate is that the pressure comes too late to do any real damage, and it's extremely easy to scout. I don't have to change anything in my build, I get my 6:30 roach warren like every Zerg does, I get my 6:40 evo chamber, and I get my 2 gas, just like every Zerg does when going fast third. I know exactly whaty ou are doing with a ling poke and an overlord around your natural, and when you move out I make a spine or two, do some fancy footwork, and was delayed for 20 seconds while you were delayed by much more, by making roaches to your zealots. I then can do some serious damage to you with just 10 roaches, because you have no sentries or many stalkers, and super late tech.
Of course, I could also just scout, play competently, get a 5:30 roach warren, and just go kill you or be ready for you.
I disagree I feel it is very stable. Again the goal isn't to kill the zerg or the third. It is not like DTs or SG or anything like that because those are heavy time and resource sinks. An extra gateway and some zealots are not huge resource sinks and does not delay tech at all depending on how you want to do it. The difference is mostly in unit composition as you will be more mineral heavy than gas heavy. 3-gate sentry expand actually is horrible pressure, because sentries are not good offensive units (they need supporting DPS units). 3-gate sentry expand is a safe opener, not an offensive opener. Zerg can very very safely get their third a lot earlier than protoss can get theirs from a 3-gate sentry expand.
Okay. Your protoss. I'll take your word for it.
Personally, i don't think it's a great build, but yes, zealots are expendable and there are ways to continue the game as Protoss in a way that isn't hurt by making zealots or delaying tech.
And 3 gate sentry expand, fyi, is an offensive opener, in that Zerg cannot get a third with it. Zerg cannot safely take a third at all against 3 gate sentry expand except on maps like Terminus (easily defendable, tucked away 3rd) or Tal Darim (very big). Zerg can't really take a third until knowing what Protoss opened (ie if he goes SG or robo, he can get third, if protoss goes aggressive warp gate, you can't get a third).
I wish I could cite you an example, but there have been 2 recent games on XNC (both of them) where Zerg tries to take a fast third against 3 gate sentry expand, loses it, despite not droning. Just take my word for it I guess, like I'm taking yours.
You must not have read what I said correctly. I said many, many top level Zergs open 14/14 in every ZvP, and when they scout FFE, they go for a fast third, and many times will still get ling speed even if they find out before they begin research.
Nestea, Losira, and Check all open 14/14 in ZvP, and all of them get a super fast third in response to FFE. Some people would argue that speed is useless against FFE and if you want to go fast third, but by no means is it impossible or even uncommon that Zerg opens ling speed and then gets a fast third in response to a FFE.
Actually I think MOST zergs open zergling speed and then take a fast third against FFE. So you're understanding is just.... wrong, there.
I never said anything about how common what opener is or what, I don't know where you got that from, but getting gas, mining 100 gas, then spending 100/100 on ling speed significantly delays your third. Also seeing gas/pool opening and gas being mined you can abandon this opener if you want since you know any 3rd would be delayed, although +1 zealots still destroy lings, speed or not.
Fast third doesn't exactly 'counter' FFE, it's just a really good response and if you scout and react properly, you will always come out ahead. That doesn't mean Protoss can't react properly or do a macro oriented build that at least keeps them even.
I never said it did counter it. I said it is popular opinion on these forums that it does.
You made 2 gateways. If you want to make 2 gateways at the delay of your cybercore, and not take any gas and delay tech for the sake of 2 gateway pressure, be my guest. But there's a reason defensive 4 gate against Zerg is bad, even if you could, I suppose, go into a macro game off it.
There is no delay in the core, it is thrown down immediately after your first gate. You can fit in the extra gateway because you are 1 gas longer. There is no delay in tech either as 1 gas still gives you enough gas to tech because you are not making early sentries.
Dude, Ling speed does not mean no fast third. I have no clue why in the world you think this, but let me just tell you that you are outright wrong in your assumption. I think you said yourself you don't actually play Zerg or know that much about them from a player's point of view, but you can watch any Losira or Nestea game and just realize that they always go 14/14 (actually I think Nestea goes 14/13, but basically same thing), and then still go fast third. Check, and many other Zergs-who-arent-nestea-and-losira open 14/14 with ling speed and take a fast third when they see FFE.
Hell, I went 14/14 in ZvP and then would go fast third if I scouted FFE for a very long time. The only reason I changed my build was because... well, no good reason, and no reason that's relevant to this discussion really. It's a great way to open ZvP, and it being too expensive or delaying my third was never a reason I stopped doing it.
I suppose we just have different definitions of a fast 3rd. My idea of a fast 3rd is no gas super greedy fast 3rd. I don't know about zerg from a zerg perspective yes but obviously I know the timings of common builds.
What I meant is that Protoss can't easily know if Zerg took a fast third before throwing down the 2nd gateway before cybercore. Sure, sometimes you can, sometimes you can metagame, but what if Zerg decides to just 2 base it? You threw down your 2 gateways, you probably threw down your cybercore already even and then it's 30 supply and Zerg DOESNT get a third. Oops, you did the wrong build, maybe you should've picked heads!
Again there is no delay in your core. You might just be looking at specifically kiwi's version, which I've said is more risky but with more potential to do damage (and it has less to do with the delay in the core and more to do with the very late gasses). But you don't have to delay your core at all if you don't want to. The main thing you really give up is the chronos and you use a lot of chrono on either your initial zealots and/or your +1 weapons. However I have no idea why you think the investment of a 2nd gateway, +1 weapons and some zealots is some huge, tech delaying investment. It's not. Ok say you 2 base. I send my zealots out and we traded some zealots for lings. I got a read on your army comp. Now I'm going into the midgame with +1 weapons and an "extra" gateway (extra infrastructure = good). How am I behind?
Actually, I will. When I see 2 gateways, I set an overlord out front. In fact, I always set an overlord near the natural against FFE, and I will see exactly how many zealots and chronos you are using, and there is nothing you can do to deny Zerg from seeing that, unless you hide the 2nd gateway in your base (which isn't the worst idea, but you need a wall-in somehow).
No, Zerg doesn't cut any econ getting a 6:30 warren that will get roaches in time. you can run back with your zealots if you want, but I'll make 20 more roaches and do a shitton of damage and drone up behind it.
Like I said 6:30 warren is too late. You will end up having to deal with the zealots with lings. Roaches will pop in your base which I will see and that gives me time to get cannons up and chrono out an immortal. And yeah you're not popping 20 roaches simultaneously the second your warren pops.
I'll happily quit droning if you are making zealots off of 2 gates and had a late cybercore.
Core is not late... why do you believe this lol
The problem with FFE 2 gate is that the pressure comes too late to do any real damage, and it's extremely easy to scout. I don't have to change anything in my build, I get my 6:30 roach warren like every Zerg does, I get my 6:40 evo chamber, and I get my 2 gas, just like every Zerg does when going fast third. I know exactly whaty ou are doing with a ling poke and an overlord around your natural, and when you move out I make a spine or two, do some fancy footwork, and was delayed for 20 seconds while you were delayed by much more, by making roaches to your zealots. I then can do some serious damage to you with just 10 roaches, because you have no sentries or many stalkers, and super late tech.
Again like I said the point isn't to do damage. I don't know how many times I have to say that. At standard warren timings it will come out too late. And no the counter roach push will not do any significant damage. However you are completely correct that it is easily scoutable, but like I said it doesn't matter if you scout it or not.
Of course, I could also just scout, play competently, get a 5:30 roach warren, and just go kill you or be ready for you.
Contrary to what you may believe but the zealot push is actually what gives me the scouting I need to minimize the damage from roach pushes. You can be "ready for me" with a 5:30 warren by sac'ing econ and all it took was for me to make a few zealots. Cool I'm in a good position.
Okay. Your protoss. I'll take your word for it.
Personally, i don't think it's a great build, but yes, zealots are expendable and there are ways to continue the game as Protoss in a way that isn't hurt by making zealots or delaying tech.
Now you are starting to get it.
And 3 gate sentry expand, fyi, is an offensive opener, in that Zerg cannot get a third with it. Zerg cannot safely take a third at all against 3 gate sentry expand except on maps like Terminus (easily defendable, tucked away 3rd) or Tal Darim (very big). Zerg can't really take a third until knowing what Protoss opened (ie if he goes SG or robo, he can get third, if protoss goes aggressive warp gate, you can't get a third).
I wish I could cite you an example, but there have been 2 recent games on XNC (both of them) where Zerg tries to take a fast third against 3 gate sentry expand, loses it, despite not droning. Just take my word for it I guess, like I'm taking yours.
Actually if you do find some I'd love to see them. What exactly are they pushing with? Most of the time a zerg can grab a third vs a sentry expand the protoss player has like 1 z, 6+ sentries and few stalkers. Hardly an offensive powerhouse. Of course it's hard to speculate here because so much depends on timing, drone cuts, what map, what positioning, the actual engagement, etc. But generally speaking it's hard to be very offensive with a sentry expand. And it's funny how you knock early zealot aggression and its "bad" risk/reward scenario when pushing with a plethora of sentries is incredibly more risky! Losing all those sentries, even if you do take out the third, HURTS as a protoss player, big time.
I never said anything about how common what opener is or what, I don't know where you got that from, but getting gas, mining 100 gas, then spending 100/100 on ling speed significantly delays your third. Also seeing gas/pool opening and gas being mined you can abandon this opener if you want since you know any 3rd would be delayed, although +1 zealots still destroy lings, speed or not.
I'm not going to agree or disagree about ling speed delaying a third, but I will tell you that many, many Zergs get ling speed, then a fast third. You said that scouting gas first or gas opening by Zerg indicated ling speed, indicating no fast third. I'm telling you that that's completely wrong, and you have a really, really wrong assumption there.
That would be like me saying "okay Protoss got a zealot first so you know he's not going stargate because his cybercore is going to be delayed". Like, not at all!
Ling speed does not delay the third at all man. You are just completely wrong about your assumption there. What Ling speed does is lower the drone count by a little, or it could mean they are going to stay on hatch tech and defend with hatch tech instead of trying to get lair. Or, really, it means shit-all, they just open 14/14, and saw FFE so got a fast third.
You can talk about the implications of ling speed openers all you want, but the truth of the matter is that it's just an opening, and Zerg get a fast third as a response, not as a build. It doesn't delay the third, if anything it means less drones and a later lair. Or less queens.
There is no delay in the core, it is thrown down immediately after your first gate. You can fit in the extra gateway because you are 1 gas longer. There is no delay in tech either as 1 gas still gives you enough gas to tech because you are not making early sentries.
Huh? That is TOTALLY NOT what the OP is talking about, or what Kiwikaki does!!
We are talking about FFE 2 gate, as in: Pylon Forge/Nexus Forge/Nexus Pylon 2 gateways No cybercore quite yet, chronoboost +1 and zealots and/or probes.
Going gateway , cyber, gateway is COMPLETELY different.
I'm sorry man, I really enjoy our conversation, but there are just huge communication problems going on hindering this and I have to clear it up:
1. Your misconception that ling speed affects fast third. It doesn't. It means a little less money for Zerg much, much later on. It usually translates to a later lair, but scouting gas or speed by Zerg has no impact on what they decide to do with a third or when. Please, understand this, because you seem to think that scouting ling speed affects how Zerg gets a fast third, and it doesn't.
2. The thread is discussion about what Kiwikaki has been doing for a very long time and showcased against Stephano - FFE into 2 gateways, and gets a few zealots before even making a cybercore, and applying pressure with +1.
. However I have no idea why you think the investment of a 2nd gateway, +1 weapons and some zealots is some huge, tech delaying investment. It's not
Here's what you said, so apply that to what I'm saying about ling speed and a third. Make sense?
Like I said 6:30 warren is too late. You will end up having to deal with the zealots with lings. Roaches will pop in your base which I will see and that gives me time to get cannons up and chrono out an immortal. And yeah you're not popping 20 roaches simultaneously the second your warren pops.
Yes, I've said repeatedly that a 6:30 warren means zealots will be in your base on the standard large sized map, but that the roaches will pop well in time before your zealots do more than force me to pull drones or kills a spine. That's also to say I could just scout you, and get a 5:30 warren. And yes, actually, I'm popping 10 (20 is an exaggeration) roaches all simultaneously the second the warren pops because I will make an extra overlord and the second my injects pop on 4 hatches, they all become roaches. On creep. To kite your zealots forever.
Actually if you do find some I'd love to see them. What exactly are they pushing with? Most of the time a zerg can grab a third vs a sentry expand the protoss player has like 1 z, 6+ sentries and few stalkers. Hardly an offensive powerhouse. Of course it's hard to speculate here because so much depends on timing, drone cuts, what map, what positioning, the actual engagement, etc. But generally speaking it's hard to be very offensive with a sentry expand. And it's funny how you knock early zealot aggression and its "bad" risk/reward scenario when pushing with a plethora of sentries is incredibly more risky! Losing all those sentries, even if you do take out the third, HURTS as a protoss player, big time.
Sigh... I'll look them up. I should remember because everytime I say 3 gate sentry expand is offensive and denies the third, and therefore is a really good build, I have Protoss who don't believe it.
I'm not going to agree or disagree about ling speed delaying a third, but I will tell you that many, many Zergs get ling speed, then a fast third. You said that scouting gas first or gas opening by Zerg indicated ling speed, indicating no fast third. I'm telling you that that's completely wrong, and you have a really, really wrong assumption there.
That would be like me saying "okay Protoss got a zealot first so you know he's not going stargate because his cybercore is going to be delayed". Like, not at all!
Ling speed does not delay the third at all man. You are just completely wrong about your assumption there. What Ling speed does is lower the drone count by a little, or it could mean they are going to stay on hatch tech and defend with hatch tech instead of trying to get lair. Or, really, it means shit-all, they just open 14/14, and saw FFE so got a fast third.
You can talk about the implications of ling speed openers all you want, but the truth of the matter is that it's just an opening, and Zerg get a fast third as a response, not as a build. It doesn't delay the third, if anything it means less drones and a later lair. Or less queens.
Well it does delay the third compared to a gasless third, that's just fact, but what you are saying is it doesn't delay it significantly. Ok that is just a matter of opinion. I explained what I consider a fast third (the gasless version) but again that's just a matter of opinion/perception.
Huh? That is TOTALLY NOT what the OP is talking about, or what Kiwikaki does!!
We are talking about FFE 2 gate, as in: Pylon Forge/Nexus Forge/Nexus Pylon 2 gateways No cybercore quite yet, chronoboost +1 and zealots and/or probes.
Going gateway , cyber, gateway is COMPLETELY different.
Yeah I tried to clarify exactly what I'm talking about. Like I said I agree kiwi's version is a very risky but higher potential payoff. I agree kiwi's version isn't stable, etc. But what I was trying to point out is that there is a lot of variation you can do with early zealot pressure, and that there is a stable way to do it if you so choose. That is a bit of a tangent from the OP though yes but I think it is very relevant because people should not dismiss the idea of 2-gate zealot pressure out of a FFE completely just based on kiwi's variation. Also kiwi doesn't get +1, which I also do not like.
Master Protoss, and Diamond zerg here For me FFE is better than 3 gate exo, They are much more economical. the nexus go up like 3 minutes earlier, And 1 big PLUS is you get a forge and can upgrade slowly but steady, normally when I do 4-5 gate or 5-6 gate timing attack with 3 gate expo, I have no upgrade, but with a forge fast expand when I move out with the fastest 6 gate I can have at least +1 attack, or a slower one with +2 attack or +1 attack +1 armor, that is HUGE really, It can make tons of different, the only drawback of FFE is they might be vulnerable to roach, ling all in or It is quite hard to take a third, vs a good zerg you can only take a third when a zerg get a forth, some may say that 6 pool can punish it, but I still think that unless big map and you scout the wrong base you will be fine, and zerg cant do 6 pool everytime, when 6 pool they cant scout what protoss do, and if protoss aware of that they can prevent it easily and come out ahead.
Muta switch can be quite strong if you go for 4-5 gate robo tc expand and they will shut you down in 2 2 bases for a long time, you cant move out unless you want a base trade which is in favor of zerg who got flying muta and can produce tons of spines, so stargate after forge fast expand can be good, but It make your ground quite weak if you do no damage with it But the metagame is flowing right now, Protoss is finding a way to refine this build. When there is only 1 opening in a match up, good player can refine the build more the more they play so I SUPPORT FFE in PvZ almost every map.
Remember several months ago, protoss only FFE in Taldarim Alter and Shakura Plateur and 1-2-3 gate expand other map, which can be good, but protoss do not know what to do after FFE except for some 2 base colossus timing, 6-7 gate push or stargate openning, which is why 1-2-3 expand can be good because it is a little bit more safe. And that is one of the reason protoss fail miserably in the last 2 months.
But GSTL just proved that protoss is adapting now, everyone do double forge in PvT and FFE in PvZ, zerg and terran has a hard time playing against it. It is a good sign of a refined build to me (a build that has no hole), and as an artosis article in broodwar said about korean training about they only practice 1 build in 1 matchup and master it, and know exactly the timing of every counter to it.
There have to be a reason why protoss in korea do FFE in every match vs zerg, they look promises now, every protoss in IPL3 do it now. And even though zerg can take early third, It is still difficult to hold some kind of timing by protoss off 2 bases, Protoss may fake a 7 gate all in with just 4-5 gate and build a army then take a third.
EDIT: and I do not know why this guy, Belial88 try to argue so much about kiwi build. Yes It is vulnerable to early roach, but with early roach, the zerg cant get a third base and then it will be 2bases vs 2bases situation, protoss will not move out the zealots and chrono out voidray, therefore zerg will adapt and still make a third they will try to save it from 6-8 zealots, Kiwi version is a faster one than Elfi one, without +1 attack, but zerg has to produce at least 20-25 lings to kill it off and they can kill the 3rd base which is pop up about this time pretty fast, 20-25 lings require tons of larva and they will not be able to produce drones, even IF protoss lose all the zealot to zergling without killing a third, zerg drones = equal protoss drones still or maybe a liite bit higher, remember protoss still produce probes nonstop in that harass off 2 nexus.
If zerg do not take a third but a roach warren instead, then ok, It is fair and square losing some zealot for a investment in roach is a lot too.
Anyway the build maybe a hole where zerg can take advantage of, however It can be a good build in the pocket of protoss FFE. Try to mix this build into some normal FFE in a BoX, they can caught zerg offguard a lot of time, and. double stargate can prevent later MUTA switch, which is metagame in korean ZvP now.
EDIT 2: TvZ is so good right now because the match up is so stable, which normally zerg do DRG build 2 bases lair then add banelings net + spire and a macro hatch, even NESTEA do that vs MMA and he revenge MMA already in Code S after the lost in Arena of Legend. Terran normally do reactor hellion into macro game with hellion deny creep and map control, but terran have so much build that they can go either bio mech or full mech in this match up.(If anyone see IM HAPPY play mech in TvZ in GSTL after 1.4 hellion nerf) This is a reason why Terran and zerg are so good right now in this match up, they know what to expect, they know every timing, they do not have to "Brainstorm" in a some clutch situation, which can be spent on APM and multitask. For example A terran scout no third, If no one have lost anything yet, he will expect a lair come at about 8 minute and mutas about 9.30- 10 mins, he will throw down the ebay at about 9 and turrets immediately after that so it come at the same time muta in middle of the map. Which is a default thing to do now for terran. (I do not know the exact timing, just an example here) So a good and stable match up is the way to go for me.
Anyway, SC2 is a great game, I wish It can get better, and skill of player in 4-5 years can be a WOW to sc broodwar player. I am a master protoss, recently playing an diamond Zerg account, I am planning to hit master with zerg then make a terran acc, to a point where I can play random on master. If anyone agree with me, thump up pls. No Flame pls
what kiwi did is extremely good imo. Most zerg wiill not get any gas until around 40 food, then 2 gas (or more). some will get the gas only for the speed. but if zerg got earlier gas, then he can't drone as much as he would like to
the zealots will hit at the time when zerg don't have gas for roaches and it will be really devastating to lose the quick third for zerg.
Here's what you said, so apply that to what I'm saying about ling speed and a third. Make sense?
The difference is that a hatch produces both income and production (which can be used for more drones for even more income). In my opinion that's why even what you may consider an insignificant delay it has more of a pronounced effect. But again matter of opinion.
Yes, I've said repeatedly that a 6:30 warren means zealots will be in your base on the standard large sized map, but that the roaches will pop well in time before your zealots do more than force me to pull drones or kills a spine. That's also to say I could just scout you, and get a 5:30 warren. And yes, actually, I'm popping 10 (20 is an exaggeration) roaches all simultaneously the second the warren pops because I will make an extra overlord and the second my injects pop on 4 hatches, they all become roaches. On creep. To kite your zealots forever.
See this is where the variation of the opening comes into play. IMO vs kiwi's version with no +1 weapons (which is scoutable by checking forge production), you should just defend with lings which you can trade economically with zealots w/ no upgrades. This allows you to simply wait for him to come, scout how many zealots he has, and then make the appropriate amount of lings and you can do it and not have to worry about roach warren timing at all.
What I'm currently doing (experimenting a lot, so I don't even know what's really optimal yet), I can be in your base ~7mins with 5 zealots and +1 weapons done. You would need roughly 30 lings to stop this force depending on where you engage me obviously, which is probably what I would do in this situation as zerg (again not a zerg player, but it seems like the best solution to me).
In this scenarion a 6:30 warren is too late because I would just kill your hatchery before your roaches pop if you don't have enough lings. A 5:30 warren would have roaches pop right as I hit your base. Then depending on the number of roaches I can engage or retreat. Why do you think I will let you kite my zealots on creep when I can just run away if it's not a beneficial engagement for me? If I retreat I basically forced an early warren and early roaches which is good from my perspective. This is all tangent if you are strictly talking about kiwi's version of course, but I find the discussion relevant.
Sigh... I'll look them up. I should remember because everytime I say 3 gate sentry expand is offensive and denies the third, and therefore is a really good build, I have Protoss who don't believe it.
Yeah that's probably because players who actually play Protoss know how hard and risky it is. Of course I'm not saying it's impossible, but the risk/reward ratio is way, way too high. Many times, depending on the map, when the protoss is able to kill the 3rd due to lots of FF usage, they get surrounded and their entire army gets wiped. In my eyes killing the 3rd but losing all your sentries is not a good trade and there isn't even a guarantee you will kill the 3rd in the first place.
Much more often you will just see the protoss player attempt to take a relatively fast 3rd in response, which is IMO much safer and just as effective if not moreso.
On October 10 2011 22:59 mazqo wrote: No. Baneling bust with 2 bases is autowin against this. Also 1 spine defending expansions you cant do anything with your zealots. And few roaches also counters these zealots hard.
you actually did not understand what the timing of that push is about. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-356-p1-controlling-game-flow-5618434 watch this episode of day9 about the build of Elfi did to idra, which is different but kind of similar to Kiwi build and also read my post above.
Game 1 on Metalopolis. It's not actually the best example - the map was extremely big (far spawns), and Minigun lolligagged a bit, but it's still an example showing that Zerg can't really hold a third. On big maps, I would say it's possible to take a third against 3 gate sentry expand, but you can definitely see at least the difficulty in this game.
actually this isnt the best example, his push wasnt the 3 gate sentry zealot push.
HERE we go. Finally. Before anyone tries to be a smartass, no I didn't find a million examples and just leave them out, it just took a while to find an actual game where P goes 3 gate expand and Zerg takes a fast third.
Plain and simple game. Zerg cannot hold a third against 3 gate sentry expand. Maybe on the largest of maps or farthest of positions you can or on maps with a tucked away third like Terminus, but in general, Zerg cannot hold a fast third against 3 gate sentry pressure. Yong went 3 gate sentry into forge/nexus, he didn't make a million gates, he pushed with what he made from 3 gates and did a ton of damage.
You can talk all day about the control or decision making, but it's quite clear in this game that Zerg cannot hold the third, whether Protoss kills a bunch of stuff and makes the third too taxing to have held, or actually kills the third, you just can't do it.
Well it does delay the third compared to a gasless third, that's just fact, but what you are saying is it doesn't delay it significantly. Ok that is just a matter of opinion. I explained what I consider a fast third (the gasless version) but again that's just a matter of opinion/perception.
Zerg won't delay getting the third if they got ling speed. They will delay other things, like drones and lair. They will still get a very, very fast third when they see FFE. It's not a matter of opinion. A 30 supply 3rd is super fast, and just because you got ling speed doesn't stop a Zerg from doing it. Now they may have 3 less drones, or may end up with a later lair, but it doesn't mean they will get that third later.
EDIT: and I do not know why this guy, Belial88 try to argue so much about kiwi build. Yes It is vulnerable to early roach, but with early roach, the zerg cant get a third base and then it will be 2bases vs 2bases situation, protoss will not move out the zealots and chrono out voidray, therefore zerg will adapt and still make a third they will try to save it from 6-8 zealots, Kiwi version is a faster one than Elfi one, without +1 attack, but zerg has to produce at least 20-25 lings to kill it off and they can kill the 3rd base which is pop up about this time pretty fast, 20-25 lings require tons of larva and they will not be able to produce drones, even IF protoss lose all the zealot to zergling without killing a third, zerg drones = equal protoss drones still or maybe a liite bit higher, remember protoss still produce probes nonstop in that harass off 2 nexus.
This 'belial guy' is not talking about early roach. I know you are Diamond Zerg, but quite frankly diamond level zerg don't know how to pull off a fast third and how to defend it properly against 2 base FFE all-ins.
A fast third Zerg isn't getting a fast roach warren. They get a roach warren at 6:30 as standard practice. Nestea, Losira, Check, they always get an evo chamber and a roach warren all of them between 6:30 to 6:50, with extremely little variation. As in consistently within 10 seconds of when they got them in any other game. My point is that the 2 gate FFE is vulnerable to NORMAL PLAY from Zerg, which is why I say it's a bad build.
Now if FFE 2 gate could not be held unless Zerg got a fast roach warren, that would mean it's a decent build. But that's the problem. FFE 2 gate is bad in the same way as, say, reactor hellion expand into rine/tank push into cloaked banshees is bad - Zerg is going to have lair and detection. FFE 2 gate is bad because every Zerg who went fast third will have a roach warren in time to laugh it off, and then go fucking kill you.
So please, avoid being snide. I'm not talking about early roach, I'm talking about normal roach. And also, losing 100% of your army in 14 zealots to kill a third is not at all worth it. And what you say about losing all zealots to zerglings while doing zero damage, not worth it at all.
Yes, units = no drones for Zerg, but Zerg has larva inject. If Protoss loses their entire army just to stop Zerg from droning up for 1 minute, it is not worth it at all.
the zealots will hit at the time when zerg don't have gas for roaches and it will be really devastating to lose the quick third for zerg.
Actually, they won't. And it's not as devastating to lose a quick third when you lose all your army. What's devastating for Zerg is losing drones, or an expansion without doing damage back. I'll let you kill my main if it means your 200/200 army dissapears and I get to keep all my drones. And Zerg will have enough gas.
The timing of this means that your zealots will be in my base the same time roach warrens pop. I will definitely have to pull drones, but that is why it's a big map and that is why I made 2 spines in anticipation. Then 10 roaches pop on creep, you die, and all you did was bring my hatch to the yellow.
What I'm currently doing (experimenting a lot, so I don't even know what's really optimal yet), I can be in your base ~7mins with 5 zealots and +1 weapons done. You would need roughly 30 lings to stop this force depending on where you engage me obviously, which is probably what I would do in this situation as zerg (again not a zerg player, but it seems like the best solution to me).
I will have scouted your double forge and gotten a 5:30 roach warren, and delayed you even more with a spine crawler. Or, I will make 2 spines to buy time, and with my 6:30 roach warren I will hold, barely, with a hatch in the yellow.
I think the best way to settle this is if we actually play. PM me and we can post how the timings and results worked out. Maybe the zealots do come too early, or maybe not.
EPT
