EPTRegardless, this is probably worth the investment 80% of the time or so. Strongly recommend it.
[D] KiwiKaki Vs Stephano, The Future of the FFE? - Page 4
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
Regardless, this is probably worth the investment 80% of the time or so. Strongly recommend it. | ||
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
On October 10 2011 08:07 roymarthyup wrote: i think FFE is just bad. any good zerg when seeing early forge can power out 20 drones a minute (2 queens, 2hatch) take a third and be 70drones vs 45probes. but of course every toss is doing it because no ones found anything better i think ive found the future of earlygame ZvP and i plan to message saracen soon and play the bo3 with him to test the build and provide replays. but of course its dumb to say that because why havnt the top pro koreans started doing what im doing? so i dunno my winrate vs PvZ ever since i really started to get the matchup is like 100% and ill be facing grandmasters soon so i guess ill find out then how much it cna work the future of earlygame ZvP is you need a build that most likely doesnt get a early forge, and cuts zero economy, and while cutting zero economy you put as much pressure as you can on the zerg to stop his droning. i call the above paragraph the GOLDEN RULE of earlygame ZvP. any build you do must follow the GOLDEN RULE or its simply put bad and a good zerg should tear you apart im sure many tosses think they following the golden rule. but most BO's that are gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing will normally cut probes at around 19 probes, not a good idea since your killing getting your final economy asap. also most gateway-expands that ive seen pros doing have the toss cutting his chronoboosts on his nexus after 15probes, also bad. by maxing out chronoboosts on your nexus and not cutting probes you can hit saturation much faster and have more economy. then, while maxing out your economy you put as much pressure as you can. im not saying gateway-expands are bad, im saying most of the time a protoss isnt following the golden rule and he is cutting some economy. the above sounds easy and it is once you find a optimized build that follows the golden rule properly. and ive found two builds follow the golden rule pretty well. im sure there are more builds that also follow the golden rule but i havnt explored everything yet and im sure 2 builds is a good start and also toss pretty much only has two options when it comes to earlygame PvZ. either you go forge-expand or gateway-expand. and i think forge first is just bad because of queens in sc2 letting a good zerg power out so much drones once he sees the forge the golden rule basically simply means that you cut zero economy, and put as much pressure as you can while cutting no economy. and most forge-expand builds actually do follow the golden rule. they usually never cut probes, the problem is i simply feel there are no "good" forge-expand builds because even if you try to follow the golden rule the forge-first is just too bad because of queen mechanics i still havnt seen any good forge-expands that are "good". ive seen many forge expands follow the golden rule, but they still dont end up being "good". i am open to the possibility that there are "good" forge expand builds out there, i just havent seen it yet. so pretty much im putting most of my research into gateway expand builds. and so far ive found two gateway-expand builds that follow the golden rule and i feel are pretty good at having a equal early game with the zerg heres the last game i played against zerg. i used a build thats pretty much a "zealot pressure expand" but it cuts no economy and your pretty much safe from any all-in from the zerg if you scout at 9pylon http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=236306 Just have watched your replay.. Did you ever hear of warpgate reasearch ? Your reactions were sloppy that game. Really pain to watch tbh. Aside of the awesomness when mommaship comes in. There wasnt anything too good.. Your expo could be earlier down if you didnt make too many zealots - and you didnt have to make those preemptively to be able to defend if you didnt forget to make WPG. Idea is good however you have a long way to get the proper timings down | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 10 2011 18:13 Roynalf wrote: It only have worked this far as Kiwikaki is basicly only one doing this at pro level, soon as pros adapt for it they have like 5 roaches just shutting down those zealots easily No. This is a common and known build at the pro level. Elfi did it to IdrA at IEM China when they played in the group stage. (as just one other example) It's easily dealt with if its scouted. It's almost impossible to win if its dealt with. It's a decent opener, and it's quite good if you can hide it, but it's really quite hard to hide it. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On October 10 2011 18:00 YosHGo wrote: Just have watched your replay.. Did you ever hear of warpgate reasearch ? Your reactions were sloppy that game. Really pain to watch tbh. Aside of the awesomness when mommaship comes in. There wasnt anything too good.. Your expo could be earlier down if you didnt make too many zealots - and you didnt have to make those preemptively to be able to defend if you didnt forget to make WPG. Idea is good however you have a long way to get the proper timings down the main thing you should focus on in that replay when it comes to the build is the early game, before 8minutes im confident i can have more workers, and higher supply than any zerg by the 8 minute mark as long as im using a build that follows the golden rule. The "zealot pressure expand" build i used in that replay is one of the two good builds i have found against zerg that follows the golden rule. (the golden rule just means you cannot cut any economy, and have to put as much pressure as you can to stop the zergs droning. most gateway-expands i see cut chronoboosts on the nexus and cut probes around 20 which is cutting economy) the "zealot pressure expand" gets 2 fast gates, with a normal gas, and it puts on very early 2gate pressure while getting a fast voidray to pressure the zerg and force extra queens, and if the zerg attempts any kind of early cheese or baneling bust the 9pylon scout sees that and its very easy to deal with any early cheese if i played badly past the 8 minute mark its more because my mechanics are not up to par yet. as far as the build is concerned, focus on the first 8 minutes of the game where im sure my mechanics are capable of playing perfectly for the first 8 minutes as far as the "zealot pressure expand" build is concerned ive been working on it for weeks and i feel getting that stargate before the expansion is required because you want the fast voidrays to kill some drones. as you see in the replay i got the nexus right about after the stargate was started because i scouted my enemy made some spines meaning he couldnt be offensive. (im not saying this zealot pressure expand is the only build that follows the golden rule. so far ive been trying out 2 builds that i feel are good at it but im sure theres more out there and experimenting with other things could work) so with that said i feel you should only try to criticize the first 8 minutes of my game/builds. so with that in mind looking at your post i will try to dissect everything you have said that applies to the first 8 minutes of the game. ""Your expo could be earlier down if you didnt make too many zealots"" i make my expansion right after the stargate, after putting zealot pressure on the zerg to damage his economy. my expo might be considered "late" because its later than when most tosses expo, but i also put so much pressure on the zerg i stop his ability to powerdrone as much as he would like. i believe this trade off is beneficial for the protoss. I have a slightly later expansion, but i have stopped the zerg from droning in the very early game "" - and you didnt have to make those preemptively to be able to defend if you didnt forget to make WPG. "" i did need to make the zealots early if i wanted to stop the zerg from droning early. once my zealots reached the zergs base i saw i forced him to make some spine crawler, which is good. without the early zealots that couldnt happen. regardless, i expanded right after the stargate. and this may seem like a late expansion, but because i hurt the zergs economy in the early game it is actually good for the protoss. Now when my fast voidray arrives it forces the zerg to cut even more economy to fight my voidrays (by making more queens instead of drones) | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
omg! all of a sudden the seemingly random pressure is useless. Thats how zerg works, you either know the timing of the timing attack and you crush it, or you get tricked and punished. So many zealots is a risk, if you get the hatchery it was worth it, if you trade units its not worth it (if a zerg kills 6 zealots in the middle of the field before warpgate tech is out, ITS DRONING TIME). | ||
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dayshadow
Germany14 Posts
2 Gateways 2 Stargates (which were scouted) 2 Robos (emidiatly after the 2 Stargates into Colossi) Pretty nice build imo | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:23 Anihc wrote: This is a good build in the sense that it puts pressure on the zerg before the 9-10 minute mark when traditional 2 base protoss attacks happen. It will punish greedy zergs who see a forge and just assume that they can drone nonstop for the first 8 minutes. Even for zergs who are a bit better prepared, it changes the early game PvZ dynamic and can still put the protoss in a better economic position due to the zerg having to spend early larva on units and not just drones. However, like all builds (and there are others as well that can put this kind of pressure on the zerg off a FFE before 8 minutes), it's scoutable and counterable, and I wouldn't call it "the future of FFE." Agreed, this is just a metagame build designed to exploit the fact that P don't attack before 9 min. Further, Kiwi has been doing this for at least a month, probably longer. | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
On October 10 2011 19:01 dayshadow wrote: CombatEX did this build on his live stream once against slush (he won btw), but he did a nice follow up after the 2 gateways; 2 Gateways 2 Stargates (which were scouted) 2 Robos (emidiatly after the 2 Stargates into Colossi) Pretty nice build imo so, in other words, it was the 2/2/2/2 build? 2 bases, 2 gates, 2 stars, 2 robos? | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
First of all, I think that the FFE is the best possible way to approach the PvZ. Secondly since Zergs adapted and went for a fast third it is impossible to take your own third without preassuring pretty early. That leaves us with only Zealots, maybe +1 Zealots but getting a fair amount of Stalkers would simply take too much time, Zs third would have already been worth the investment. Why most of you are wrong: Yes, if scouted the Zerg can react by getting a couple of roaches and can kill your Zealots if you walk them into the Zs base blindly. So, send a probe to test the waters. <- It really is as simple as it sounds, check with the probe you should have out to place random pylons. ALSO(and this is the big one): YOU HAVE FORCED ROACHES!!!! If you execution is good, he will only have roaches if he knows what he's up against. So it will do incredible damage if unscouted, that's nice but nothing you should ever rely on. So what if Z scouts and knows exactly what's coming up? He gets Roaches, he crushes your push. So what? He spent 1 Drone on an early roach warrant, he spent about the same amount of minerals to defend as you did to preassure him. He also spent 5-6 additional larvae to get the roaches. All in all you propably get to kill a few roaches/lings and most of the time still get one or two drone kills if you Micro correctly. Maybe you can even snipe a Queen, hurting his production a ton! Zerg scouted it and did not get a fast third? Great, goal achieved. So what you invest is a little delayed tech, what you gain is _GUARANTEED_ damage to the Z economy, also you are calling the shots, meaning that Zerg will feel a little less comfortable. In my opinion AND experience it is worth the Zealots! You simply lose against a good Zerg that goes ultra fast 3 Base vs your FFe if you wait untill you got warpgate researched. With the Zealots you don't lose. So why in the hell would that be worse!? _____ For those who think you have to die to a Roach counter attack. I really believe that Protoss are getting to few cannons, against Zerg and Terran. If you have a highground cannon, one or two on lowground and a handfull of Sentries+Stalkers you can easily defend the push with correct building placement. | ||
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Gerike
Hungary14 Posts
On October 10 2011 07:52 Micket wrote: Early roaches shut down those zealots way too easily. Once that happens, the game is literally over. This strategy relies upon zerg to not scout and assume he can drone for 5 minutes. this yes | ||
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Pippi
Sweden540 Posts
On October 10 2011 08:42 Easytouch wrote: Sure, this works in theory, but the fact of the matter is most zergs will just drone their dicks off when they see a FFE. How do you do that? I'm having problems with my ZvP, should I play with my penis? | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On October 10 2011 21:54 Pippi wrote: How do you do that? I'm having problems with my ZvP, should I play with my penis? You have to really be attracted to the D key on your keyboard. but yeah. | ||
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Myst1cus
7 Posts
If scouted, the zealot push will get crushed and 10-12 roaches (+whatever reinforcements the z decides to throw in) will break your 1-2 cannons and walled front and you will lose the nexus if not the whole game. It's not a reliable, safe, or smart push. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
Getting any early roaches delays tech more than a speedlings and you have to make so many overlords too. Any counter all-in by zerg could easily be avoided for the protoss with good cannons placement and forcefields, so if you succeed with such an attack it is because of the incompetence of your opponent rather than a result of his build order. However, Kiwikakis transition into 2 stargate Voidrays is really silly, I mean it doesn't make sense the zerg has been able to tech after the initial zealot attack, and lair is almost done or the zerg is getting any lair tech units which all smash void rays (hydras,mutas, and infestor). It cut into his resources and tech/gateways everything and he doesn't get any gain from them except for like some overlords like 2. I mean not a good trade off. I rather see Phoenix or Twillight council. The Void rays only makes sense if the zerg goes for some extremly delayed all-in. You can be much more liberal with phoenixes and poke more aggressively besides they are good against both hydras and mutas. Twillight council for either blink and to be able to get +2 attack really fast, while adding on gateways and then push out taking a third quickly seems good aswell. Robo forces you to 2-basing since both immortal and colossus is not that cheap and only works well in big army compositions. Which gives zergs too much time to drone and tech with litteraly no pressure on him. Well, of course warp prism could be used but it works better with high gateway count, so personally would sneak a warp prism in the council route. Edit/update: Notice that this build works really well on any maps with small entrance to the natural so shakuras plateau, antigua and such maps less on maps like xel naga. It is not a gimmicky build as many persuade themselves that it is, you guys really overhype the roach all in counter which if not succeed will lose you the game, the protoss can just keep building cannons and chrono out sentries delay tech and defend. Then all zerg has left is no army and few drones. | ||
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Myst1cus
7 Posts
Any 1 gas opening by zerg (read: every single zerg opening v. protoss) will crush this when it is scouted. Protoss is essentially limiting itself to two bases with a meager, easily countered army while being behind in tech. A roach counter (using the third as a macro hatch) will face a maximum of two forcefields as warp gate also gets delayed even more than a normal FFE. If the gateways are socuted, and if the zealots do not do damage, the protoss will lose. It's an incredibly gimmicky play. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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