|
On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in.
Let's fix your understanding of that.
FFE is the actually viable economic choice.
Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
Edit: And 3gate expo eco is very different from FFE where you can adapt your nexus, cannon, and forge timings depending on what you scout.
|
The benefit of FFE is that it's not only a great FE but it's incredibly safe. 1 gate expo is much much more unsafe because what would you have when the zerg just figures out he can fucking kill you, makes 30 lings like the poster above said and you have 2 zealots?
|
yeah, this is sort of the new thing as FFE vs no gas hatch. You can do this as long as you see they are going for no gas.
|
On October 10 2011 08:42 Easytouch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 08:16 Emperor_Earth wrote:
Easytouch
Let's try some basic math, shall we?
Forge. 150 minerals
2 Cannons. 300 minerals
1 nexus. 400 minerals
Total, 850 minerals
2 Hatcheries. 600 minerals
1 Queens. 150 minerals
2 Drones. 100 minerals
Total, 850 minerals
Therefore, the only part missing is 1 queen, or a zealot and a a probe worth of an army
Since at this juncture in the game, you don't have warp gate tech to neutralize logistical disadvantage, in theory they have more than enough time to deflect/defend any "punishing" you have in mind.
The main strength of FFE is really the option for a fast +1 or +2 while safely getting a 2nd base faster than you normally can afford to do so.
There is no real "weakness" that you can punish the Zerg for per se.
I should of course clarify that a fast +1 is normally good for zealots which doesn't present much of a threat with the availability of roaches. +2 is usually reserved for stalkers, hence the resurgence of heavy blink stalker play a few months back esp from China. Sure, this works in theory, but the fact of the matter is most zergs will just drone their dicks off when they see a FFE. The only way to effectively stop the punishment is too make enough combat units of their own. Even if they did so and nullified your zealot push you would still have forced alot of non-drones out of larva. The 6 zealots are effective as proved by Kiwikaki. However I do understand that if this became "standard" then it could be very easily countered.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't trolling with your low post count.
1) Getting a third base in a direct and immediate reaction to FFE is in no way the same as getting a fast third and then overdroning. The former is a superset of the latter. Either you are addressing exclusively the latter and need to form your argument better or you are addressing the former and then theory becomes more important than specific scenarios that are subsets and not indicative of the entire set.
2) The speed (or more easily understood, the lack of speed) of zealots mean that they are not the ideal units for "punishing" overdroning. The overall cost of Stalkers and the high gas cost of Sentries mean that they are not ideal Zerg units. This is the reason for what was the emerging and shifting metagame to Phoenixes and Voidrays a few months back. But as Zergs have learned to adapt the metagame is shifting back to Colossi based 2/1 timing attacks. Hence the primary concern of Protosses is the lack of a unit for map control. Your concerns with overdroning are not unique. Your approach has already been considered and very quickly and obviously rejected. (And a side note if you're newer and go down the line, BW references of +1 zlot timing attacks aren't very good because they didn't have the roach, the ultimate antizealot unit. And unit counters were much softer in BW, meaning micro was often > unit counters. Think Marine vs Bling style engagements rather than Colossi vs Marine. It's part of what made the game great but that's another argument.)
Since your zealots have no speed, you are playing a game of hope. I hope the Zerg doesn't have any larvae ready in time for this pressure. I hope the Zerg doesn't have enough map control. I hope the Zerg overdroned. Sure a "hope" style of thinking can and will win you games. But if you really want to have a true discussion where you approach the highest level of play, it is preferable to close in on actually stable strategies.
|
This is a good build in the sense that it puts pressure on the zerg before the 9-10 minute mark when traditional 2 base protoss attacks happen. It will punish greedy zergs who see a forge and just assume that they can drone nonstop for the first 8 minutes. Even for zergs who are a bit better prepared, it changes the early game PvZ dynamic and can still put the protoss in a better economic position due to the zerg having to spend early larva on units and not just drones. However, like all builds (and there are others as well that can put this kind of pressure on the zerg off a FFE before 8 minutes), it's scoutable and counterable, and I wouldn't call it "the future of FFE."
|
On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo.
It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings.
I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based.
Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
|
On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later.
In a 1 gate expo
You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control
You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line.
You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main
No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game.
FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
|
i like the strat but obviously any semi early roaches shut this down. it's just frustrating as a protoss because at the prolevel the zerg can more easily take a 4th base than a protoss can take a third when the protoss is going to try and play a macro game off a forge fast expand. I also have seen many zergs jump way ahead when protoss try to expand off 1 base play. It just seems like protoss feel like they can't keep up with a macroing zerg in the mid game with because there aren't many effective "light pressure builds" that will slow the zerg down. Almost every game i see the protoss falls about 20 supply behind the zerg as they hit 80-120 supply (obviously some of this is that roaches are 2 supply). It might be more of a map thing where giving protoss maps where with an easily defendable third might help but I think Korean protoss are going to continue to struggle in the near future because they haven't found a way to play a safe macro game without falling way behind in the mid game because of how quickly the zerg can build up their economy with larva injects. At the end of the day i don't see stargate builds, dts builds, gateway timings being the answer and I think robo tech tech takes far too long to develop not to mention that it can be easily countered if the zerg sees early collusus or imortals coming.
I would love to see more macro games in P v Z as a protoss player but in the current metagame protoss don't feel like that gives them the best chance of winning so my guess is that two base gateway timings will be the standard for the foreseeable future. My hope is that protoss can find a better way to transition out this gateway timing or be more effective at killing the zerg's third base with the timing (although i think the latter is unlikely with the fact that zerg players are going to continue to get better at finding protoss proxy pylons as the game evolves and if the protoss have to warp in from further away it makes it much easier for zergs to stop the push). I hope i'm wrong but i feel like protoss are trapped at the moment into doing timing attacks because it's a better option than trying to macro with a zerg.
|
On October 10 2011 09:23 Anihc wrote:
This is a good build in the sense that it puts pressure on the zerg before the 9-10 minute mark when traditional 2 base protoss attacks happen. It will punish greedy zergs who see a forge and just assume that they can drone nonstop for the first 8 minutes. Even for zergs who are a bit better prepared, it changes the early game PvZ dynamic and can still put the protoss in a better economic position due to the zerg having to spend early larva on units and not just drones. However, like all builds (and there are others as well that can put this kind of pressure on the zerg off a FFE before 8 minutes), it's scoutable and counterable, and I wouldn't call it "the future of FFE."
true, I mispoke when saying its the future of FFE. If this become common in the metagame many zergs would just recognize the second gateway and respond appropriately.
|
I personally like the 2gate pressure with Zealots, but I think it comes too late from Forge FE. Lately I've been going 2gate pressure (gateways at the natural, 13/14 or 13/15, can't recall), into Nexus, or if they go one base Roach I cut Zealots and drop a forge then Nexus). I've had some pretty damn good results with it lately, dying a few times to extremely hyper aggressive Zergs but I also die to Roach/Ling timing attacks when going forge FE so it's hardly different. Just need to scout more.
|
|
|
On October 10 2011 09:34 OgsStump wrote:
i like the strat but obviously any semi early roaches shut this down. it's just frustrating as a protoss because at the prolevel the zerg can more easily take a 4th base than a protoss can take a third when the protoss is going to try and play a macro game off a forge fast expand. I also have seen many zergs jump way ahead when protoss try to expand off 1 base play. It just seems like protoss feel like they can't keep up with a macroing zerg in the mid game with because there aren't many effective "light pressure builds" that will slow the zerg down. Almost every game i see the protoss falls about 20 supply behind the zerg as they hit 80-120 supply (obviously some of this is that roaches are 2 supply). It might be more of a map thing where giving protoss maps where with an easily defendable third might help but I think Korean protoss are going to continue to struggle in the near future because they haven't found a way to play a safe macro game without falling way behind in the mid game because of how quickly the zerg can build up their economy with larva injects. At the end of the day i don't see stargate builds, dts builds, gateway timings being the answer and I think robo tech tech takes far too long to develop not to mention that it can be easily countered if the zerg sees early collusus or imortals coming.
I would love to see more macro games in P v Z as a protoss player but in the current metagame protoss don't feel like that gives them the best chance of winning so my guess is that two base gateway timings will be the standard for the foreseeable future. My hope is that protoss can find a better way to transition out this gateway timing or be more effective at killing the zerg's third base with the timing (although i think the latter is unlikely with the fact that zerg players are going to continue to get better at finding protoss proxy pylons as the game evolves and if the protoss have to warp in from further away it makes it much easier for zergs to stop the push). I hope i'm wrong but i feel like protoss are trapped at the moment into doing timing attacks because it's a better option than trying to macro with a zerg.
I actually really agree with pretty much everything you're saying.
There's a ticking timebomb that you need to win or gain a significant advantage by. You either rely on fairly easily scoutable and deflectable pressures of [+2]blink stalkers, pheonix/vr, +1 zealots, 5 zealot opener, or you play for an 1 or 2base allin before broodlord/infestor 4-5+ bases.
If I played game designer for a second, I think a simple combo change, DTs being available from Templar archives and removing shrine, would go a long way towards fixing this. The issue with these buildings isn't the cost but the timing. If you go DTs, you simply won't have storms for an effective defense. If you go HT, you don't have DTs at that time for harass. It's the time value of the cost that really hinders PvZ imo. Imagine if you could deny overseers with pheonixes and have DTs denying every chance for a zerg fourth while having storms at home and being completely safe to max slower than a zerg but safely get a third..
Iirc, without corsair + reaver/DT, PvZ is the same nightmare in BW that it is today. While zealots were worse vs lings then, there were no roaches to hard counter either.
Random note, is Colossi: Prism/Colossiable like Reaver/Shuttle in PvZ? I think I've only seen Prism/Immo but not Prism/Colossi + pheonix.
Luckily I'm a T main and I can rely on my Marine Tank Medivac midgame to gain a strong advantage.
|
On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout.
FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe.
When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand.
But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in.
Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
|
since the zerg always responds to early zealots with roaches, how about double robo immortals instead of double stargate void rays? Then you can easily transition to colossus if hydras come out, which is something double stargate cannot do
|
On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen.
So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2?
And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
|
On October 10 2011 10:01 YoyoDevo wrote:
since the zerg always responds to early zealots with roaches, how about double robo immortals instead of double stargate void rays? Then you can easily transition to colossus if hydras come out, which is something double stargate cannot do
Slings. Lots of them. Playing to outtech switch vs Zergs is like trying to race Usain Bolt in a sprint. They have better tools for that game.
*** FFE has slow AA so they have plenty, I mean plenty of time, to just see what you're doing and dronewave until the last possible second and then have just enough to defend and overwhelm.
This was another small reason why SGate was so popular a followup to FFE.
|
On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. Edit: And 3gate expo eco is very different from FFE where you can adapt your nexus, cannon, and forge timings depending on what you scout.
I know it sounds like I'm saying the FFE isn't viable, it is, I just hate when people assert that using 3 gate expo or 1 gate tech expo is some kind of cheese... like a normal 1 gate tech opener can't win in a macro game... like a Protoss simply can't keep up in econ with such an opening. The problem with the "forge fe timings" are that in a LARGE portion of the games you play you won't scout the Zerg first, and so won't know when early pool will out right kill you, so if you don't scout the Zerg by 13 supply you simply HAVE to 13 forge... while also taking the econ hit of NOT spending your chronoboosts so early... the early chronoboosts are the biggest snowballs to begin with...
|
On October 10 2011 10:08 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. Edit: And 3gate expo eco is very different from FFE where you can adapt your nexus, cannon, and forge timings depending on what you scout. I know it sounds like I'm saying the FFE isn't viable, it is, I just hate when people assert that using 3 gate expo or 1 gate tech expo is some kind of cheese... like a normal 1 gate tech opener can't win in a macro game... like a Protoss simply can't keep up in econ with such an opening. The problem with the "forge fe timings" are that in a LARGE portion of the games you play you won't scout the Zerg first, and so won't know when early pool will out right kill you, so if you don't scout the Zerg by 13 supply you simply HAVE to 13 forge... while also taking the econ hit of NOT spending your chronoboosts so early... the early chronoboosts are the biggest snowballs to begin with...
I consider 1g expo PvZ cheese.
3gexpo and FFE PvZ aren't ofc.
This is from someone who almost exclusively 1g expos PvT.
|
On October 10 2011 10:05 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:01 YoyoDevo wrote:
since the zerg always responds to early zealots with roaches, how about double robo immortals instead of double stargate void rays? Then you can easily transition to colossus if hydras come out, which is something double stargate cannot do Slings. Lots of them. Playing to outtech switch vs Zergs is like trying to race Usain Bolt in a sprint. They have better tools for that game. *** FFE has slow AA so they have plenty, I mean plenty of time, to just see what you're doing and dronewave until the last possible second and then have just enough to defend and overwhelm. This was another small reason why SGate was so popular a followup to FFE.
okay so then you get colossi. With void rays you can get slings too but in that case, the slings are better vs void rays.
|
On October 10 2011 10:03 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:00 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:33 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:24 Belial88 wrote:On October 10 2011 09:13 Emperor_Earth wrote:On October 10 2011 09:01 ShatterZer0 wrote:
OOOOhkay... this is completely off topic... but why do people think that FFE is an economic choice? It is almost NEVER the "economic" choice... Think about it, the only real diff between a 1 gate expo, 3 gate expo, and FFE is the timing of the nexus... which is actually not THAT different... try it out, see how many minerals more you get by the 10 minute mark with a FFE vs a 3 gate expo... not to mention you end up with later gas and correspondingly later tech, which is why stargate pressure from a 1 gate fe is SOOO much better than stargate pressure from a forge fe....
Forge Fast Expand forces you to get a later gas, forces you to reallocate chronoboost to other things than probes in attempt to not die, and forces you to promise the zerg that you won't dare pressure/lets the zerg power harder than you can... Sure, technically forge fe gets you more minerals faster... but it's much less than most would like to believe... in fact, the soft pressure a zerg automatically forces (unless you have a godly ninja probe scout) makes you even or behind in econ before the 10 minute mark. Otherwise you're toeing the line of "not safe at all" to many a zerg all in. Let's fix your understanding of that. FFE is the actually viable economic choice. Or maybe you really believe you can react to a smart Zerg who will just lol larvaeabuse 30 speedlings at your 1gate expo. It's extremely map dependent and depends what the Zerg opened. If you see no gas, which is common when Zerg expects a FFE, then they won't be making a ton of slowlings. I would say 1 gate FE is a much better build economically because it denies the third from Zerg, but FFE is much more defensive and timing based. Also, with 1 gate expand you can just cancel the Nexus, and you will still be ahead of Zerg if they made 30 zerglings even if you are forced to cancel twice, Protoss will be ahead. If you lose your few units though, yes, you will lose, but keeping them on the ramp and using your sentries correctly, you'll stay alive, and just make the nexus later. In a 1 gate expo You either have your gate+core wallin and expoed off of that meaning they will just send those lings as nex finishes and you have maybe 3-4 units. You lose: a few probes, 3-4 units, nexus, map control You have gate->nexus meaning you have nothing resembling a wallin and they will not wait for the nexus to finish and completely ignore it. They will continue to pump lings as they run around your production line and probe line. You have gate+pylon on low ground and either way they will just overwhelm your nat and time their attack around 300hp at the nexus. your probes will not be near to help defend your small army and they will continue pumping lings into your wallless main No. 1gate->expo is not a good idea PvZ. PvT it works because a Terran doesn't get that far ahead in unit production that quickly into the game. FFE is the economic play because you can adjust the timings of your nexus, second pylons, cannons, forges, and even your gateway based on when, where, and what you scout. FFE is mostly safer than it is economic, otherwise 1 gate FE is a better 'macro' build. The issue is that it's not safe, whereas a lot of maps FFE is very safe. When Nexus finishes you can have a forge up to put down cannons and 4 units to hold. Of course, if you skip the forge and the nexus completes, you can be in trouble, but then again that's why FFE is safer and that there IS risk to 1 gate expand. But the truth of the matter is that if Zerg made 30 lings to force a cancel on a nexus, you will still be ahead in workers, and eventually that nexus WILL go up and you will be far and ahead of a Zerg who's stuck on 2 base. It's not all about where YOU are, but where you are in relation to the Zerg, and 2 base vs a 2 base zerg who made 30 lings in the early game, is a great spot to be in. Now if the Nexus finished, and then it dies, you may have some problems. But if Zerg can only force so many cancels before your 2-3 more gateways, or stargate, or whatever follow up you had planned, finishes and can then at least definitively expand. And all this while Protoss has been making probes, regardless of how many cancels you forced and units and pylons you killed. Unless he got in to your base, then your screwed, but with good sentry and zealot control that should never happen. So you are talking about core expands, the first or last of the three scenarios. Are you walling in? What prevents the zerg from waiting til nexus finishes, sniping nexus, a few units, and whatever probes and just camp outside your ramp as they drone wave x2? And if your buildings are on the lowground, what's stopping them from just rushing 8 slings into your main, running around and keep pumping lings in as they ignore your nat nexus?
I'm talking about 1 gate expand with a cybercore, yes. You are walling in your main. What prevents Zerg from running in is having a zealot on hold position and a sentry at the bottom of the ramp. 1 gate expand with have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. They won't be able to run into the main, but they will force a cancel. But Zerg just made 30 zerglings to force a cancel, and eventually you will get enough to get that expo up and running, and Zerg will be in a tough spot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
