EPT[G] Hyper-Aggressive ZvT: Countering the 2Rax (GM) - Page 4
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n3ac3y
United States108 Posts
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.) Anti-Tang: Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647 Pro-Tang: First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do?  ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho | ||
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shifty
United States280 Posts
The NA Ladder is Terrible. | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
The one you posted about Kiwikaki's 'new' sentry heavy 5 gate all in and now this... these are no way new builds and helpful to anyone I wish you would really think and try to help the community instead of shamelessly advertising yourself | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote: What we have learned from this thread - The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. | ||
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TheLastGoose
Canada44 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote: What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote: who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Kawaii posted earlier. You don't have to win an mlg or gsl to be a pro. o.O | ||
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TheLastGoose
Canada44 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:38 Indrium wrote: Kawaii posted earlier. You don't have to win an mlg or gsl to be a pro. o.O no, but you should have a better argument when critiquing another players decision making. tell me, right now, what he did wrong? he won the fucking game...how is that bad? | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:40 TheLastGoose wrote: no, but you should have a better argument when critiquing another players decision making. tell me, right now, what he did wrong? he won the fucking game...how is that bad? I have no idea why you're attacking me. I never posted about the build. | ||
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TheLastGoose
Canada44 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:41 Indrium wrote: I have no idea why you're attacking me. I never posted about the build. how am i attacking you? | ||
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.) Anti-Tang: Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647 Pro-Tang: First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho I have one useful tidbit besides the fact that I agree with the attitude but not the specific content of your post, Duncan. For all you Zergs out there that aspire to abuse the Terran thin walls... aim for the middle barracks ffs! The splash radius of the bling is enough to take out BOTH depots. This was a "very" old lesson from beta that somehow got forgotten as we stopped 1basing each other to death. In fact, bling busting was sooo prevalent back in beta that there was a whole period when people only thickwalled TvZ. | ||
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RedMosquito
United States280 Posts
the only time where a 1 base baneling bust is a good counter to two rax is if the terran proxied the rax in the middle map. this thread should be closed | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
Edit: Whoops, after PM, it's revealed to be a big misunderstanding. ^^ | ||
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Bobo012893
United States7 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.) Anti-Tang: Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647 Pro-Tang: First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do? ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho You seem to have a weird understanding of balance. You equate it to each race having the same capabilities rather than each race having capabilities that counteract each other. The fact of the matter is that it is easy as hell to scout a baneling bust. Terran have a myriad of avenues with which they can scout the zerg in the early game. Zerg do not have those capabilities.That's how the game is. Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game. But what do I know I'm not in mensa or have a PhD in statistics. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10669 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Personally I think its silly because the 2rax rush will obviously scout the lack of expansion, but what about if you went pool first for some earlier lings and then dropped your hatch afterwards so that you could cancel it and go for the baneling bust after you beat the rush. Seems like an easy adjustment that could easily work. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On October 10 2011 01:29 TangSC wrote: That's why you drone scout, this is a response to 2rax aggression and notably you don't have to put the nest down until after terran moves out. If he sits in his base, you can still expand. Yes, but it delays your expansion a considerable amount until you do scout him, especially if it's a 4player map. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
On October 10 2011 11:20 Bobo012893 wrote: You seem to have a weird understanding of balance. You equate it to each race having the same capabilities rather than each race having capabilities that counteract each other. The fact of the matter is that it is easy as hell to scout a baneling bust. Terran have a myriad of avenues with which they can scout the zerg in the early game. Zerg do not have those capabilities.That's how the game is. Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game. But what do I know I'm not in mensa or have a PhD in statistics. Bobo, you not having a PhD or being in Mensa is not the problem, I was simply saying that being good at SC2 doesn't mean you know all and anything contrary to your views is obviously wrong, since you (proverbial you as a "pro-gamer", not necessarily anyone in particular) beat most players. For example, Idra thinks there's imba's everywhere, and although I'm a huge fanboy of him, I don't agree the game is imbalanced, simply that his style has problems with these issues, at least from his perspective. As for my understanding of balance, perhaps we share differing views. But I refuse to believe that Zergs must play macro, and have no viable "cheesey" options, especially when it's responsive cheese to their own cheesy build. Should someone b-burst blindly, ffs no, but if they're not teching, and their wall is vulnerable, why not try? Banshees will be delayed, so that's no problem. So we sac some econ by not expanding fast in order to punish their cheese? Sounds reasonable. Apparently I don't understand balance since I refuse to believe Zergs must play a macro style, and despite this, that makes the game balanced. I argue Zergs can opt for a non-FE, 1-base response, and still be in a commanding position, not necessarily screwed. And personally, if this is not true, I think it is an imba, because it's not fair that Zergs have one viable BO, while all other races can pick and choose. (If you think this means I think SC2 is imba towards Zerg, you're not reading between the lines.) As for this: "Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game." First, why is this true, and is it? Obviously if the spawns are close enough, olord scouts can see inside. Furthermore, if you scout between 9-12 supply, there is a good chance you drone can get in before the wall-off is complete. If your drone is consistently blocked out, you may be scouting too late. And there is a difference between this and "any other one base baneling burst". Tang is advocating a speedling expand, morphed into a b-burst given a 2rax is scouted. Personally, I say scout early (9-10 supply, later if you're able), and if you see no gas, throw down a gas and a pool and do a speedling expand, you may be able to pressure a Terran early expand, and you'll be prepared for any multi-rax shenanigans. If you see a gas, opt for an FE on 15-16 supply, and play your standard spines&queens(maybe speedlings if you go for 100gas first) defense. But personally, the defense against a 2rax after FE as Zerg is a tad too uncomfortable for my tastes, though I do it anyways, and I have been curious if there are other options... I'm not saying Tang's is the answer. But I do think a 1base response is theoretically viable, and I'm simply defending the notion that Zergs don't have to simply expo and try their best to absorb the hit. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
Edit: watched the video. The strategy is pretty crap imo. | ||
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